lisa99 said...
Regarding the comments about
marriage supremacy/the MRS degree and all that...
I was on a mostly BW discussion forum where the article about marriage eluding
high-achieving black women was being discussed. The usual red herrings about
the stats not reflecting those who choose to be single or who are co-habitating
and lesbians were thrown around, but then someone (a never-married single
woman) added that she was tired of hearing about these desperate black women
always complaining about not having a man and that she didn't know any single
BW like that... that her circle of friends enjoyed their freedom, their
disposable income, trips around the world, designer clothes, etc.
An argument ensued when another never-married woman said those things could not
replace a husband and children in her life, and the first single woman got very
upset, calling the comment "snobbish." She went on to say that how
dare the second woman speak for all single black women and that she and her
friends were happy with all of the trappings of single life and all.
The second one repeated that she was not criticizing the choice of the first
person and her friends, but that for black women who wanted to marry, they
should be able to express that and should not have to be satisfied with
"freedom" and material things in place of a husband and family.
What I found interesting was how quickly the long-term single women -- who
insisted they were fine with their choices -- took offense at the article and
the single women who said they'd prefer not to be single. On one hand, members
of the first group might have felt that their lives have been devalued by the
outside world because they haven't married (whether by choice or not), but at
the same time, many of them turn around and like to put single BW who express a
strong desire to marry into a "weak-minded, needy, desperate, can't live
without a man," box... thus making some of those women feel they need to
then break out the SBW persona and prove that they're "okay" with
singleness and try to pretend that they really do love all those
"benefits" of being single.
I was caught in that trap for a few years... yes, being single was cool, but I
knew I desired marriage sooner rather than later. Saying that around certain
groups of black women (usually never-married older professionals, but a few
older married ones too), however, was a no-no because they'd then seem to have
the need to make it feel like I was somehow buying into "society's"
idea that I couldn't exist without a man.
Finally, I started living according to my truths and my desires, and I accepted
to myself that the Sex and the City-type lifestyle (minus much of the sex, in
my case) was NOT what I wanted. I wanted a husband and children, and I wasn't
going to let other BW who might not have either deter me from that.
I'm all for more promotion of BW seeking a MRS degree (done subtlely, as Evia
says), and using the low marriage stats as motivation to seek marriage, if
that's what BW want. And they should be free to express that's what they want
without other BW arguing them down.
August 28, 2009 at 8:27 AM
Roslyn,
You said, "We want our kids in schools with people with similar values
because we know this is where their first dating/mating opportunities will
occur. You don't want your kid going to school with trash because you don't
want your kid laying down with trash. I don't think it's something many AAs
think about, but I can assure you other groups do."
AAs don't consider these issues because we've programmed ourselves to condemn
the very idea of making any sort of assessments when it comes to low- and
non-functioning people. So, we throw our children to the wolves in order to
avoid being perceived as "bougie snobs."
________________________
Evia,
You said, "Khadija, I've heard bw offline say this too. I know that
some people online may view me as a "marriage supremacist"--not
saying you do. However the main reason I promote marriage nonstop is because I
and my children live well TOTALLY because of my marriages to 2 Quality men.
I've been marriage almost all of my adult life and I've grown so tired of other
AA women hating on me because of--what they refer to as--"my easy
life." So I'm in essence saying to them that maybe they should try to make
the same moves that I did and their lives might just be easier too. Marriage to
a Quality person clearly has lots of benefits, but I'm in no way saying that
any woman should get married if she doesn't want to marry."
Well, I've ALSO been promoting marriage. LOL! There's a difference between what
you're saying above and what most AA women do. You're pointing out the benefits
of marriage. AA women tend to use the status of "got a man/kids" or
"ain't got no man/kids" to measure the value of themselves and their
time and other women and other women's time.
What some women are rejecting is the idea of accepting condescending put-downs
from married women or mothers. These insults come in many forms.
One example is many married women's and mothers' frequent assumption that
unmarried women have what one single friend calls "idle time and idle
minds."
This leads to the married/mothers making assumptions that the single
friend/relative has nothing better to do than to babysit their kids, run
errands for them, or for those who are politically inclined, participate
in activist struggles that the married/mothers say they don't have time to
attend.
[I had to go off on one married friend who made this assumption one time too
many, and kept trying to sweat me into attending political activities that she
felt were important. Of course, she couldn't go because she was too busy with
her kids. Finally, I told her, "You must think that I don't have s*^%
else to do with my time but to follow through on YOUR political priorities. No,
I DON'T have idle time and an idle mind."]
For another example, if I had a dime for every time a married or parenting BW
assumed that she had more "life experience" than me, I would be
independently wealthy. What I get is "Oh, you were wise to say/do
___________. That's why I assumed you were married." BW say and think
these sorts of things as if "wisdom" (such as it is) comes from
marriage and childbirth.
A number of women are sick of disrespectful treatment like the above, and are
rejecting it.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
August 28, 2009 at 8:40 AM
Lisa99,
I co-sign your comment. I've also seen the weird dynamics that you're
describing. Other BW (including the "single mama mafia" who insist
that single parenting is just as good as married parenting) have given me the
side-eye and worse over the years for promoting the value of marriage.
I think it's critical that we de-tangle and separate the promotion of
marriage from the disrespectful, insulting beliefs that many AA women hold.
The legitimate importance, value and benefits of an MRS degree need to be
un-coupled from the disrespect of "You and your life ain't s&%$
because you ain't got no man/kids." Right now, it's all mixed up
together and I think the demeaning portion of the message is what's causing many
women to verbally balk when they hear marriage being promoted.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
August 28, 2009 at 8:52 AM
lisa99 said...
The legitimate importance, value and
benefits of an MRS degree need to be un-coupled from the disrespect of
"You and your life ain't s&%$ because you ain't got no man/kids."
Right now, it's all mixed up together and I think the demeaning portion of the
message is what's causing many women to verbally balk when they hear marriage
being promoted.
EXACTLY! And being that I'm still unmarried (although I plan for that to change
soon), I get this a lot too from married women... I know that at my first job,
our boss (who actually was an unmarried WW, but most of the offenders were
married) would constantly give me and the woman on staff who was a lesbian in a
committed relationship extra work to do... work usually first assigned to the
married workers who declared they were taking off for their anniversaries or
children's recitals and soccer games.
I wasn't mad at the married workers' desire to do such, but I finally put my
foot down about picking up their work. When I'd get asked to stay around last
minute, I'd go, "Sorry, I already made plans." (Usually to sit on my
couch and eat ice cream!)
They learned quickly that they needed to shift their workloads quickly to make
the married workers cover their load on days when they didn't have family
commitments instead of just assuming that the unmarried women would just do it.
And don't get me started on the black folks (mostly men) who've constantly
asked me WHY I'm not married since I was 22. (22!!!) Yet if I later express a
desire to marry to other black folks, they say, "Girl, you betta stay
single and not be running up behind some man all the time."
Ugh, it's maddening! :)
August 28, 2009 at 9:08 AM
Honestly the responses/attacks on
those that want to marry sound pretty schizophrenic....
Schizophrenia (Merriam-Webster Dictionary):
2 : contradictory or antagonistic qualities or attitudes
Everyone is on point with their remarks and things need to be separated to
focus on the benefits of marriage for those who want to be and to respect the
decisions of those who don't.
August 28, 2009 at 10:34 AM
"The legitimate importance, value and benefits of an
MRS degree need to be un-coupled from the disrespect of "You and your life
ain't s&%$ because you ain't got no man/kids." Right now, it's all
mixed up together and I think the demeaning portion of the message is what's
causing many women to verbally balk when they hear marriage being
promoted."
Exactly! And I appreciate your honesty, because I've witnessed several of these
conversations in-real-life and both groups (the married women and those who are
not married and have no intentions) are hostile with one another.
It'll always be one woman who'll say as Evia said, "One size does not fit
ALL. " But other than that, the married women are trying to convince the
single women that they should be in the market for a husband. And the single
women are trying to convince the married women that not every woman wants a
husband and children.
(Also, this discussion will help me come up with my own unique approach on how
to to be an response for marriage, and all of its many benefits --especially
when speaking to young AA women. Because at the moment, I don't say much during
those discussions.
August 28, 2009 at 10:35 AM
lisa99 said...
22!? who the hell marries at 22??
at that age you're suppose to be in college trying to FIND a husband.
I personally think 22 is too young.
i'm 21 and i can't imagine being married until i am atleast 25-27.
It was some BM jack-leg preacher who made that silly statement to me... I say
jack-leg because he gave me his business card and it had a P.O. Box as an
address.
The only reason I even was speaking to this man was because I was stuck in the
airport after a snowstorm. I had just come back from a study abroad in Europe,
and I "thought" this man was interested in my trip... then he interrupts
me to ask, "Why haven't I given my hand in marriage to some young
man?"
I was so caught off guard, that I didn't know what to say.
I know I'm getting off topic, but I have found that more DBRBM will strike up a
random conversation with me, and then in an effort to show their
"interest," they'll say, "So why aren't you married yet?"
It puts BW in a very defensive stance, if they aren't prepared for it and don't
realize they're dealing with a DBR... and in a way, I can see how some of this
helps to develop and add to a defensive stance when someone else tries to
discuss the benefits of marriage in a non-judgmental way.
August 28, 2009 at 5:46 PM
Karen,
You said, "Honestly the responses/attacks on those that want to marry
sound pretty schizophrenic...."
It IS schizophrenic. But what it all boils down to is yet another example of
the widespread free-floating aggression against and between AA women. What one
notices is that there's no "win" for some folks regarding AA women.
No matter what an AA woman is doing...for whatever
motivation...she will often come under attack. And sometimes the attack(s) will
take contradictory positions. It's crazy. And crazy-making for those who let
the attacks into their hearts and minds.
_______________________
DeStouet,
You said, "Exactly! And I appreciate your honesty, because I've
witnessed several of these conversations in-real-life and both groups (the
married women and those who are not married and have no intentions) are hostile
with one another."
My take on it that there's a LOT of free-floating HATRED among AA women. And
this free-floating hate and aggression manifests in many different ways, and
along many different dimensions-----be it class, skin color, marital status,
educational status, etc., etc. etc.
You said, "It'll always be one woman who'll say as Evia said, "One
size does not fit ALL. " But other than that, the married women are trying
to convince the single women that they should be in the market for a husband.
And the single women are trying to convince the married women that not every
woman wants a husband and children."
I think you're being charitable in your description of the motives. I don't
think that anybody is trying to convince others of anything in most of these
sorts of conversations. It looks to me like it's mostly a game of
one-upmanship. The unfortunate reality is that BW do a LOT of ugly things among
and to each other.
August 28, 2009 at 6:34 PM
Part 2
Shecodes,
Well, this is interesting because it ties into the previous
"gaslighting" discussion. I trust my impressions of what I see and
hear happening around me. I reject gaslighting, no matter what its source or
motivation. I would suggest that other women also trust their
impressions of what's going on around them. And I strongly urge other women to
also reject attempts at gaslighting, no matter what its source or motivation.
From my perspective, there's a LOT of free-floating hatred and aggression going
on among and between Black folks. Similarly, there's a LOT of free-floating
hatred and aggression going on among and between BW.
And the pattern of how this hatred and aggression manifests is basically the
same, no matter what particular dimension/attribute. This is part of what I've
learned from observing aggression that's directed at me and aggression that's
directed at others. So, I trust my own observations whether or not a particular
form of aggression is personally directed toward me or not.
In plain terms, I don't have to be the one who's being knocked in the head with
a bat to recognize what that kind of attack looks like. I can also recognize
the hostile intentions that go into hitting other people over the head with a
bat. And of course, if I can recognize when other folks are being hit in the
head with a bat, I can recognize when I'm being hit in the head with a
bat.
No matter how people try to explain away the fact that somebody was attacked
with a bat. No matter how they try to explain away the fact that it was an
attack:
"I/they just have a preference for swinging bats in close proximity to
other people's heads. I/they didn't mean to hurt them...
...People are coming from a place of deep fear if they interpret my choice to
swing a bat near their/somebody else's head as an attack...
...A secure person would not feel the need to defend their personal space
around their head from a swinging bat...
...All we need is love and then folks won't read negative things into the bat
swings 2 mm away from their heads..."
{chuckling} Ummm...no. I trust my own observations of the various
"bat-wielding" attacks going on among and between Black folks and BW.
I trust my own observations of the escalating colorism within the AA
collective. When BW get smacked in the head with the colorism bat, I call it an
attack.
I trust my own observations of the class-based hateration/snobbery that flies
around in all directions within the AA collective. When Black folks engage in
class-based, bat-wielding free-for-alls, I call it a gang attack.
I trust my own observations of the "got a man" one-upmanship and
put-downs that go on among BW. So when I see BW being smacked in the head with
the "you ain't got no man" bat, I call it an attack.
Now, this last form of attack is what came up during this conversation, but
there are other forms of family-based attacks. There's also the one-upmanship
and subtle put-downs of vocally "measuring" other women's children
against one's own children. There's also the one-upmanship and subtle put-downs
of vocally "measuring" one's husband/boyfriend against other women's
husband/boyfriend. I've watched BW engage in the "my catch is better than
your catch" game.
The attributes that AAs hit other AAs in the head about are literally endless.
Not all of these have come up during these conversations. And I don't expect
all of them come be mentioned with specificity because the list is endless.
But, let me repeat my bottom line about ALL of these types of attacks: I've
seen more than enough attacks to recognize them when I see/hear them. I trust
my own observations. I reject gaslighting, no matter what its source or
motivation.
I suggest that other women trust their own observations and experiences. And I
strongly urge other women to also reject attempts at gaslighting, no matter
what its source or motivation.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
August 28, 2009 at 6:41 PM
Lisa99,
You said, " know I'm getting off topic, but I have found that more
DBRBM will strike up a random conversation with me, and then in an effort to
show their "interest," they'll say, "So why aren't you married
yet?"
It puts BW in a very defensive stance, if they aren't prepared for it and don't
realize they're dealing with a DBR... and in a way, I can see how some of this
helps to develop and add to a defensive stance when someone else tries to discuss
the benefits of marriage in a non-judgmental way."
This isn't off-topic. It's all connected to the angle we've started talking
about. Predatory men KNOW women's points of vulnerability/insecurity. They know
where these emotional "pressure points" are located, and know how to
tweak these points to knock the women they want to prey on off balance. You
will notice that the Internet Ike Turners and Ikettes also use this "you/she
ain't got no man" pressure point to attack various BW.*
[*As if they have any way of knowing what's going on with a stranger's life.
Especially if that stranger chooses not to broadcast the details of her
personal life. It reminds me of how a few random Negroes that I refused to date
in college thought they would hurt my feelings by accusing me of being a
lesbian. LOL!]
A sister that did a series of YouTube videos ("Ask Alexyss"---warning
she's extremely vulgar and graphic) mentioned this point in her "Church
Predators" video. As she explained: Predatory men know women's weaknesses
better than most women know themselves!
This is why BM predators have scoped out churches as prime hunting grounds.
They know that many BW go to church looking for solace because they're hurting.
They know that BW are more likely to let their guards (and panties) down
quicker with a Negro who pretends to be a "God-fearing man." They
know that these hurting BW in these churches are desperate to believe that they
(the BM predator) is a "God-fearing man" sent to them by God.
The predators know ALL of this and use this knowledge to their advantage in
sexing and then discarding a series of BW in church. Incidentally, this sort of
thing is the reason why my friend's church has BANNED dating between members of
the church's singles ministry.
So, yes, those of us who are promoting marriage should be cautious about not
sounding like this DBRBM line of attack when we're "spreading the gospel" about the benefits of marriage.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
August 29, 2009 at 7:11 AM