This essay is contained in my new book. I'm delighted to announce that The Sojourner's Passport site has launched! You can visit it at http://www.sojournerspassport.com/.
Everyone, I can't thank you enough for your ongoing encouragement and support; I truly appreciate it. Your support is what made this possible. And here's a special shout-out to my web designers at Educo Web Design. They're nice people to deal with, and they do outstanding work!
Peace and blessings,
Khadija Nassif
An effort to stand for justice and oppose the "ruinous traits" listed by Muslim scholars in all their forms: rancor, unhealthy attachments, malice, jealousy, vanity, stinginess, avarice, cowardice, indolence, arrogance, ostentation, heedlessness, anxiety, depression, and oppression.
Tuesday, November 18, 2008
144 comments:
Thanks for stopping by! {excited waving}
Please understand that this is not a free speech zone. Profanity and hate speech are not welcome and will not be posted. This blog seeks to foster a courteous, reasoned exchange of ideas. I would ask that before posting, everyone (myself included) seriously consider whether the proposed comment helps or hurts the cause of opposing the ruinous traits listed on the masthead.
Please feel free to add your input to any post at any time. There's no "expiration date" for the issues that are discussed here. I welcome, value, and learn from your contribution! Thank you in advance for your cooperation and your input.
Greetings Khadija!
ReplyDeleteI believe that many black women were conditioned to place their identity in other people....so leaving the black community means (for some) abandoning my people or rejecting WHO I am. This is the mentality that I continue to encounter.
If a woman puts her sense of blackness in the black community then she feels she's DENYING her blackness by leaving it.
Remember at my blog in a conversation, someone IMPLIED that being in an all-black setting meant being MORE IN TOUCH with blackness? The implication was that their BLACK CRED was so much more superior since they had been among blacks all their lives.
This mentality is also fueling the "let's stay with our own" Death Contract that many black women have signed with their lives and with their children's lives.
I addressed xenophobia among black women...some blacks are AFRAID to live with those who are from another culture and white people are viewed as Martians to some folks who have never been around them except for in work situations.
We have many layers to unpeel in this dialogue...thank you for initiating this process.
I said in a blog post a week or so ago: Run sista run!
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Greetings, Lisa!
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to get us that confused? From our history, it's quite obvious that we previously did NOT have any problems with running for our lives.
We ran off to all sorts of places that we had never been to before. Places that nobody we knew had ever been to. When necessary, we ran away by ourselves to save our own lives, even if nobody around us was willing to run.
Our people didn't buy into this "let's stay with what's familiar" Death Contract before.
How is it that we're MORE afraid now of outsiders than before? How is it that we're more afraid now than we were as recently-"freed" ex-slaves? What's up with that?!!!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
People may have run before but they were running from intimidation and violence from white people. That sense of community amongst Blacks was vital for identity and survival. There was a time anything else was not an option. I know it's different now but something has gone so wrong I don't even know where to begin. It's not just that it's a predominantly Black area, it's also a poor one. Lack of services has to contribute to things deteriorating. Somebody with enough common sense and distance has to be in a position to try to address some of these issues. If all the non-aggressors leave it'll be like Dunbar Village across the country, but how much will the police do and who will be left to feel offended.
ReplyDeleteGreetings, Faith!
ReplyDeleteWell...it's an interesting question. I don't think that it's "poverty" per se. The bulk of African-Americans have always been poor throughout our entire history here. Even though we were poor, we still had self-respect and basic human decency. Until now. For example, what kind of people actually have to debate whether or not it was okay for a grown man to urinate on the underage girl he was molesting on videotape?
Point blank, I've become convinced that much of this revolves around the active embrace of evil. I don't think it's about services, or other external factors at this point.
"Services" has nothing to do with people deciding to urinate in the hallways of their own buildings, like Negroes do in housing projects.
"Services" has nothing to do with mothers watching their grown & teenage sons ride around on children's-size bikes that these mothers did NOT buy for them when they were small. What kind of mother is a-okay with knowing that her almost-grown-a** son robbed a small child of their bike?
The other peculiar thing about AAs choosing to continue to wallow in these hellholes is that there is NO sense of community or identity among us at this point. Those positive ties that existed between our people don't exist anymore. They haven't existed for decades. So, it's not like there's any positive connection whatsoever between most AAs and their AA neighbors in Black residential areas.
Again, I ask: What's up with staying & suffering in these hellholes? I don't get it.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I don't understand why someone would put their individual/family safety at risk by staying such areas. Maybe I'm just selfish, but my need for self-preservation overrides any notion of remaining true to my black identity or whatever nonsense people use to justify some of the crazy behavior. I can live with that.
ReplyDeleteI moved from my previous "luxury" apartment complex because it was getting increasingly difficult to live there. My neighbors were constantly loud, blasting music in the apartment and their vehicle. I lived on the first floor, and the residents above me were constantly moving around - it sounded like they were fighting at times (it was a couple). In addition, one evening, the lady banged on the door for nearly an hour, demanding to be let in. To top it all off, right before I moved, there was a shooting outside of my building. I knew nothing of it, as it happened in the wee hours of the morning, and I was fast asleep. I only found out because the leasing office sent out a memo.
Now the rent for these apartments wasn't low, so it wasn't poor blacks coming in and causing these problems. I have to agree with Khadija in that it's a mindset, a very damaging one at that.
I've been watching a show called The Wire on DVD, and in the 4th season, a little boy's home was fire-bombed because he was believed to be a snitch. The show was set in Baltimore, so I wonder if that storyline was a subtle callback to the Dawson tragedy.
Hi all. I've been lurking for a couple of weeks and this is my first post. Very interesting blog.
ReplyDeletekhadija said
...Point blank, I've become convinced that much of this revolves around the active embrace of evil. I don't think it's about services, or other external factors at this point...
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I live outside of Baltimore City, which for the most part is a city of neighborhoods. A lot, lot of the crime here is neither random nor external. It is part of ongoing criminal activities, home-grown and internal. Crime is part of the fabric of poor neighborhoods here. The law-abiding co-exist side by side and oftentimes under the same roof with criminals. Men/boys get out of jail/prison and go right back home to their neighborhoods. So yes, there is an embrace and absorption of crime into what were originally strictly residential neighborhoods.
For example, what kind of people actually have to debate whether or not it was okay for a grown man to urinate on the underage girl he was molesting on videotape?
JMO, I think a lot of blacks are unwilling to consider an individual's actions as separate from skin color/race. This is why we have the R. Kelley's, and the grown man who attacked a teen-age girl in McDonalds. And to some extent, why we're still holding community marches against violence instead of hiring private security or having high levels of legal gun ownership in crime ridden neighborhoods.
Ok but if you think that's your only option and you're saying it isn't what would you tell someone to do to get out. If they're on public assistance or tied to the gov't housing and leaving would mean a 50-200% increase in rent? If they don't have credit to rent an apt? If they don't have a job? There was another blog host who asked us to chip in to help one woman leave Dunbar Village after she had begun speaking out about the rape of the original woman who was attacked. So she did leave, but she still needed help to do so, not just the desire for it. I think some people can make changes if they know they have options. I also think we have people living in poorer conditions in comparison to the greater wealth that exists. With the push of consumerism and the vastness of products available it keeps a lot of people poorer than they realize. When it was a almost a mandate from Bush for Americans to go out and spend money they didn't even have in the first place it's not just Black people, but lower income populations always pay for it later. What do you propose in a step by step fashion for a woman to leave?
ReplyDeleteHey Khadija:
ReplyDeleteProps, props, and endless props are due.
It's interesting cuz I was having this conversation with my friend (my BF's sister). I was telling her that when her brother and I are ready to marry and have a family, we are getting out of the hood. She said that she can understand why but that it doesn't have to be necessary when there are good schools in the area. Whatever.
Now where my BF and I live isn't terrible but it isn't all that desirable either. We're just resting our heads here and are paying very little in rent. Within our vicinity our neighbors are mostly Puerto Rican and Black. I'd say mostly good people but they've given up on their neighborhood. I've noticed over the years that Spanish people are complaining about the exact problems that we complain about. This is such a hood problem.
Now, we'd love to move but the economy isn't allowing us to do that. And did I mention that all the utilities are included in the rent? LOL!
What makes my block undesirable are the alcoholics across the street (I have reason to believe that they're depressed), the jerks that tamper with the building's front door, and these Section 8 Puerto Rican women (they're also old) that give me the cold shoulder because I'm Black (and have the nerve to have a Puerto Rican BF). If it weren't for the neighboring Jews (and their constant police patrol) in their high-rise co-ops, this place would be a lot worse.
Still I don't wanna raise a family in the hood. I don't wanna have to worry about my kids developing bad habits. I don't want my kids to have to hear that "talking/acting White" garbage. I wanna be able to have my kids play outside. I don't wanna raise my daughter around the likes of an R. Kelly or Eldridge Cleaver. I don't want my son to be spoon-fed some warped idea of manhood. And I don't wanna worry about violence either.
Also, there's no community setting there. Humans are social beings so why are we so comfortable with being antisocial?
I said this years ago and I'll say it again. I could give a damn about living in a Black neighborhood. I wanna live around decent people that take pride in where they live no matter what they are or how much they make. Taking pride in yourself and in your surroundings comes at no price.
Pride doesn't allow urine in an elevator, animal feces outside of an elevator or on the grounds of an apartment complex or housing project.
White people don't play that. They will put the brakes on anything that interferes with their peace and quiet.
I'm a short bus ride from nightlife. I see signs on the windows of clubs and bars saying: BE CONSIDERATE OF OUR NEIGHBORS AND KEEP IT DOWN. If White people find vomit outside of their residence, they will raise hell by circulating petitions and calling the cops.
Now why can't hood people do that? Don't we deserve better?
Hey there Khadija,
ReplyDeleteI want to mention that for many black people...dare I even say ...black women who have been conditioned by imbalanced emotional contracts...PAIN and SUFFERING is familiar and becomes an appendage...
I get all kinds of notes from readers of my blog who are BAFFLED that my childhood was so different than their own...they actually had NO idea that all black children did not have the same existence...a part of them wants so much to discard it and disbelieve what their ears have heard!! That is just how radical it is for them to embrace this notion that all blacks are not in the Walking Wounded Cult.
When pain and suffering becomes part of the black woman's identity then it is an expectation for her of her daily existence...and this means she will see NO reason to cut out and run for her life...because in her mind...pain and suffering is NOT to be escaped from because THAT is what black life consists of...
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Khadijah
ReplyDeletei find that a lot of black actions and behaviour is governed by what i refer to as 'orphaned precepts' which are rules and concepts which have essentially been seperated from the main context and moorings they once had, and the practical basis for which they were instituted in the first place.
so in such a case we could have started out with the beneficial wisdom:
'Cling to your people because therein lies safety and protection and outsiders mean you harm'. (these assumptions were largely correct for the times they were set forth).
over the years without black thought evolving as it should and to keep step with black circumstances, we still have the above edict but now not only are the realities of safety different (as we know that blacks are largely endangered by fellow blacks), the edict itself has become a shorthand black creed ,'cling to your black people' totally divorced from the whole practical reasoning why it is/was necessary to do so. It has become a stand alone concept to just cling to your people.
It also has emotional moorings rather than practical, having subscription laregly from a belief that it is the activity of a 'real' black person.
I find that the absence of critical thinking as basis for black thoughts and precepts/creeds, many such outdated and clearly counter productive if not deadly codes are sustained in the fact that among blacks they have attained a sacred status and belong to a sacred category of 'authentic black actions' and the idea that blackness can be forfeit or invalidated by non complaince holds many under its power!
Whoa Khadijah this post is by far the best post I have ever seen on your blog. If it is ever possible to be 100% right about something, then within your post you have been.
ReplyDeleteYou and Lisa have been at least 99.9% accurate with what you have been saying about the soul destroying modern inner city BC and about some black women!
Greetings, Daphne!
ReplyDeleteWhat you're describing with your not-cheap, luxury apartment building is a perfect example that a high salary does NOT give people class. It's not about money, it's about folks' mindsets.
There are a lot of strivers who go to school, get "good" jobs, and then bring their slum dysfunctions & resentments along with them into new environments. They get into previously nice condos, etc. because ON PAPER they seem like good risks. Having such people around is a heavy burden for everybody else in the neighborhood.
[*Readers' Note: For those who are unfamiliar with my earlier comments/posts about Black class issues: I'm not talking about ALL strivers here. I'm only talking about DYSFUNCTIONAL strivers.]
It's interesting. A Black coworker who's also a landlord and I were talking about this recently: how to better screen out slum-mentality individuals who happen to have "good" jobs.
It's not fair to the other paying tenants to have to be bothered with slum-behavior nonsense. They should be able to be comfortable in their own homes. I've found that part of the answer is having explicit provisions in the lease about no loud music past 10:00 p.m., etc. It's a difficult question that requires a lot of careful thought, along with consultations with one's lawyer about drafting leases.
My coworker currently allows Section 8 individuals to rent in one of his properties. {shudder} Letting them in is a holdover from his dad's policies; he would really prefer not to do that. He's trying to maintain an excellent standard of living in the other property. Unlike the Section 8 individuals, his normal renters aren't constantly tearing things up in his building.
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Greetings, Shocol!
{excited waving}
I'm happy you came out of lurking! I almost feel self-conscious about openly mentioning the spiritual aspects of this, but I believe what you described gets back to these evil strongholds: So many individual Black people, and Black families have MADE ROOM for criminality and evil in their lives.
So many of us who are NOT criminals have actually set aside space in our lives to accomodate criminality & evil! This is how you can have so-called decent people living in the same home with pedophiles, drug dealers, gangbangers and other predators. I find this astonishing and scary.
Like I've said in comments on other folks' blogs, when I find out that a woman is befriending, dating, or affiliating with a sexual predator, I'm through with HER as well as him. They are both dead as far as I'm concerned. There is NO room for such creatures and their evil in my social life.
As a people we've made our homes, and Black residential areas in general, socially comfy & cozy places for beasts who walk on 2 legs.
I think your point about people being distracted by Black criminals' color is also well taken. Many of our previous activists made a horrible mistake in the 1960s that continues to bite us in the behind now: They chose to mischaracterize ALL Black convicts as political prisoners. As opposed to acknowledging that some Black people are in prison becase they are greedy, lazy, criminals.
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Hello there, Faith!
Thank God Citoya Greenwood escaped that hellhole. Yes, she needed help to get out of that pit immediately (as in practically overnight). However, I think it's important to note that she already had herself on track to ultimately escape that place: she's in college. She wasn't laying around watching the soaps all day, everyday while collecting public aid.
I will also noted that her attempts to better the living conditions for her fellow residents is what focused the danger in her direction. So much for community activism. I also had the feeling that there was probably pre-existing "hateration" for Citoya from the other residents---from chicks who have no interest in doing anything but sitting around collecting a free aid check. Resentful, hateful crabs in a barrel.
I would suggest that the individuals you used as an example do what everybody else except some African-Americans can figure out to do: get an entry level job or do some entrepreneurship, start working for a living, and get an education in order to get a better job. This step-by-step process really isn't a mystery. We've watched waves upon waves of immigrants do this. We've watched them step over us to do this.
For example, I notice that in my hometown of Chicago, uneducated, little/no-English-speaking Mexicans have created a nice industry for themselves mowing lawns in Black residential areas.
Negroes could have done this too. If they had wanted to. Two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time. If these po' & young Black men were occupying this niche, there wouldn't have been any space for the Mexicans to perform this function in Black neighborhoods.
Another thing that I've noticed with segments of the client population is that they somehow figure out ways to relocate to states that pay higher public aid benefits. I've been amazed with how many no-working Black people have been able to pick up & move to Wisconsin over the years.
Yet another observation is the old saying that is unfortunately true much of the time: Black people buy what they want, and beg for what they need. How many of these "poor" public aid recipients have widescreen tvs, and other expensive & UNNECESSARY trinkets? It seems to me that many of them have the things that they truly care about.
It's important to note that people really don't starve to death in this country. Unlike other places in the world where one could literally end up being a skeleton by the side of the road. If the African-American population can't make it here, where on this planet can we survive?
Finally, this is why I posted a photo of the notice from 1877. How is it that we've become so helpless when we have so much materially (especially compared to what we had before now)? Our people in 1877 who took advantage of the offer in the notice were just up from SLAVERY. With much less in their hands than ANY modern-day public aid recipient.
Our ancestors were so resourceful even though they had so little compared to us. What happened to us?
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Greetings, Anonymiss!
Like you observed, "White people don't play that. They will put the brakes on anything that interferes with their peace and quiet."
I'm beginning to think that Lisa's explanation in her comment (below yours) is correct. We've normalized all sorts of inferior things, experiences, and lifestyles as being good enough for us.
What's also interesting is that most of us know better than to do these behaviors in majority White areas---there will be swift & sure negative consequences for us if we "clown" in other people's areas.
About the Orthodox Jewish community: I have to hand it to their men (even though they are DEEPLY into male supremacy). I was amazed to read a news story years ago from the New York area. It seems that some Orthodox Jewish women were suing for gender discrimination because they were required to sit in the rear of the buses their men had chartered (mostly) for their use.
What shined through from the comments of those interviewed for the story is that these men did NOT want their women having to ride public transportation with the rest of us. And these husbands were willing to pool their money to pay to have a mini-fleet of chartered buses for their women to use to come into the city!
The downside was that if a man happened to decide to ride the bus, the women had to scurry to the back so that they wouldn't be a source of temptation for the male passenger. If I remember correctly, that's what these women were suing about.
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Hello there, Lisa!
{shudder} I think you're right about the Walking Wounded Cult. {groan} We've normalized so many bizarre circumstances! There's a LOT of work to be done in renewing Black minds.
As you know, when I first started reading your blog, I was resistant to the idea of focusing so much on the internal dynamics of what's going on. As you also know, I was convinced that many calls for introspection were actually calls for self-bashing.
I now believe that your focus on the internal is correct. It tracks with the Quranic verse that explains that God will NOT change the condition of a people until they change what is in their own hearts.
The internal focus also tracks with how groups in other societies have succeeded in resisting outside invaders: they had to raise up & train up a generation of people who were mentally, emotionally, and spiritually healthy enough to engage in long-term, sustained struggle.
Sending folks out to struggle while their minds are a mess is sending them out to their destruction. It also leaves the underlying evil stronghold that is enabling the negative condition UNTOUCHED. Opposing all of this has to be a long-haul effort. From the inside out.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Greetings, Halima!
ReplyDeleteI believe that your analysis regarding "orphaned precepts" is absolutely correct. I see much of what you described in my earlier beliefs about the nature & solution for African-Americans' collective problems. I had been in a Black Nationalist trance for 20+ years before the Dunbar Village Atrocity & its Aftermath shocked me out of it.
I was Exhibit A of the confused thinking that you described. I didn't do any reality-testing of the nationalist ideology that I had first adopted as a college student. I was resistant to re-examining the ideology because of my emotional attachment to it.
I misunderstood MANY important things:
I knew that there were grave problems within the AA collective, but I didn't want to believe that the Black "community" was truly dead & gone. I refused to believe that there is NO LONGER a Black community; it's been replaced by Black residential areas where Black folks eat & sleep.
I thought that African-Americans were "all in it together." I didn't understand that most AA men had checked out of collective concerns 30+ years ago; and have since been focused on furthering their own interests ALONE. Even when it harms Black women and children.
I thought that our (mis)leaders were doing the best that they could. I never stopped to review the list of Black male leaderships' behavior as pertains to Black women:
1-Marcus Garvey talking "Up, You Mighty Race" Black talk, while choosing to marry a light, near-White looking woman.
2-Complaints from BW that W.E.B DuBois only used light-skinned women with naturally wavy hair as cover models for The Crisis Magazine.
3-Walter White of the NAACP dumping his Black wife of 20+ years for a White South African woman.
4-Dr. King cheating on Coretta with White women. All of which was audiotaped by Hoover's FBI, which tried to use these tapes to blackmail Dr. King into committing suicide.
5-Elijah Muhammad cheating on Sis. Clara Muhammad with dozens (if not hundreds) of mostly light-skinned women (and underage girls).
6-The Black Panthers' focus on having sex with non-Black women, as well as their extreme chauvinism.
7-Rev. "Baby Daddy" Jesse Jackson cheating on his wife. My mother kept an old magazine interview with Rev. Jackson from the early 1970s where he's quoted as saying "variety is the spice of life" when asked about his marriage.
8-Ben Chavis paying out NAACP money to settle a sexual harassment suit from a female employee.
9-Kweisi Mfume's scandal at the NAACP involving his womanizing. Also, didn't he have 5-6 sons out of wedlock (or something like that)?
Well...you get the picture. I've known most of these details since college. I'm still amazed that my emotional attachment to my previous ideology kept me from thinking about these facts in their totality.
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Greetings, AK!
Thank you for your kind words. I would simply emphasize what I said in response to Halima's comment: I was CLUELESS for decades while I was in my prior Black Nationalist trance.
I still believe that aspects of this ideology are correct (for example, it's quite healthy to have ethnic self-respect), but the rose petals have been snatched from my glasses.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
For those audience members who may be offended by my not-nice references to Section 8 recipients, here are just a couple of experiences from Black landlords I know who were compassionate enough to rent to our Black "brothers & sisters" on Section 8:
ReplyDeleteOne gentleman got off early from his own job one day and decided to drive past his building. It was around the time when children get out from school. He had rented to a Section 8 recipient who went to his church. She & her kids lived in the 1st floor apartment of his building.
Well...it turned out that this woman was selling penny candy to the schoolchildren out of her open front living room window. He had been wondering why there was a foot path slowly being ground into the front lawn in front of her unit.
Another Black landlord's husband drove past their building to see that a Section 8 tenant had attached a hose to the kitchen sink in his ground-floor apartment; and the man was using the water to wash his car. [The hose was extended out one of his windows.]
I won't even get into what the coworker's Section 8 tenants are doing in/to his building. It's just too crazy.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija,
ReplyDeleteThis is truly an insightful conversation we are having!
I want to make a comment about the assumptions that living in "the 'hood" is economical...
We have to start placing greater emphasis on quality of life issues as black women.
We need to examine HOW our acceptance of the deteriorating quality of life within black communities where sexual predators roam freely and mentally assault women and children all day long...not to mention the unreported groping and other sexual violence that happens every single day.
It really IS NOT cheaper to live in the 'hood...insurance companies charge more to give policies for housing and automobiles in sections of town that are deemed "high crime areas"...grocery stores do not often carry the freshest foods or the best variety so people who live in the 'hood have to travel to get certain things... the COSTS are often higher for food in the ghetto...the quality of services are often MUCH worse...even the fast food places tend to be run poorly in the ghettos and it is not uncommon to encounter beggars outside of business establishments...and I've even noticed that the gas prices are consistently higher in all black areas (not to mention that credit cards are blocked at the pump in high crime areas which means you have to leave your car and walk inside to pay cash).
Are you really saving money by staying in the 'hood?
Full service banks are RARE in the ghetto...the banks that DO exist are bare-bones establishments with closing hours at 4:00 PM!
We surely aren't gaining financially when insurance companies are charging 25% to 30% more for the same policies when they are being issued in the 'hood.
Every time I go anywhere in the 'hood in a business there usually a business that is short-staffed...this wastes my time and time IS MONEY.
This notion that housing costs are just sooo much higher in non-black sections of town is not always true either.
At some point, we have to ask the crucial question...IS IT really a "bargain" to live in the ghetto rather than living outside of it?
Are we really gaining anything by remaining in environments where we compromise on quality of life, pay more for insurance and are risking our safety and emotional stability?
I think that plenty of black women who are still DEEPLY connected to having the validation of their own families are afraid of the rejection and scorn they will face by leaving the 'hood!
Some know that they will hear:
"Oh, you think you are better than us?"
Perhaps some don't want to even address that fear of being accused by other blacks of feeling superior. Black women seem to be deeply offended if they are TOLD they feel they are superior.
My father made it CLEAR that he didn't teach his children to desire to be equals to anyone. He told my professors,"I don't teach my children to be content to be equals. I show them why they are superior."
The other reason why some black women are reluctant to cut out and run for their lives has to do with the paralyzing guilt of class mobility...they don't want to leave the 'hood and move far away from that element knowing that their family members are "stuck" in that environment...
There are so many layers to examine.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
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@ Halima
I love how you explained that concept and I absolutely agree.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
I have been lurking for a few days, Khadija. The last post on C. Deneuve got hot!
ReplyDeleteRegarding this post, the basic steps are important of course, having the guts to go out and do something, but that is not the first step.
For many, it is so scary, living isolated lives in communities where they don't know anyone, and especially if they don't have the connections to meet others.
Yet, the cultural institutions put in place that benefit the middle class enables them to do this much easily than those without access--going away to college, joining alumni groups, etc.
Consider this, in many communities, transportation can be a problem. The mass transportation is non-existent or spotty. On the other hand, in many "inner city" communities, mass transit is accessible, especially for those who don't have cars.
This was an issue talked about among some policy makers and academics some years ago: jobs apparently were growing outside of the suburban areas, but folks in the urban areas who needed jobs could not access them easily.
And yet, one can see a specific phenomenon all the time, the women of color who work as domestics in wealthier areas where they can't afford to live. Steam coming out of ears here. They walk around the community, when everyone else is driving, they are trying to get to the mass transit, which means they take forever to get to their jobs.
Yesterday, I went to a program sponsored by one of the departments that does a lot of policy analysis, and the talk was about making the community one that enables growth which can be sustained over time, and it was striking, the mindset. I noticed a few colleagues, one of whom who works in local government.
The focus was all on whether the state (and its citizens) are doing what needs to be done. Some things in control of the government; others, obviously in control of those who would start businesses; others, in control of the people who live here.
And yet, there was none of the notion of how to help folks. It was all about the free market, which is the prevailing view today in many governments and among many policy analysts and commentators. Think Wall Street Journal.
People are on their own: budget crises, etc. weigh down on the ability to provide social services. Yet, the community is seen as a great one, because there is lots of "human capital."
Yet, they were not thinking of poor folks as the "human capital." They were thinking of the skilled workforce, including the people who will be providing opportunities to hire the others.
Hello there, Anonymiss!
ReplyDeleteI was so caught up thinking about (and responding to) your comment, that I forgot to thank you for your kind words about the post! THANK YOU! I truly appreciate it.
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Hello there, Lisa!
You're right. It's NOT cheaper to live in the 'hood. Not at all. And even if is was, I would have to ask folks the following question:
How much is your life worth to you, anyway? My life is worth MUCH more to me than a "plugged nickel"! My life is priceless!
You see, I've really begun to question the sincerity of these "poor mouth" statements I hear from AAs: "Buy what they want, beg for what they need." I notice that questions of price only come up when it's something that's productive & uplifting! Nobody questions how much the Gameboy, etc. costs. I've even heard of some jeans favored by (poor & working class) Negroes that cost hundreds of dollars!
When it's something we really want, we don't ask questions about the cost. And we figure out how to get it.
About feeling bad about being accused of feeling superior: I would point out to the audience that it's been my observation that ONLY LOSERS concern themselves with whether or not others "think they're better." To even have that thought shows that the speaker knows deep-down that they are substandard.
People who feel good about themselves don't conceive of the situation in those terms. They might perceive someone as being arrogant, but the specific phrase "think they're better" only comes from losers' lips. A secure person FEELS & KNOWS that there's nobody "better" than them!
No, my dad wasn't about raising children who were "equal" to the masses, either. That's why on those occassions when losers have come at me with the "you think you're better" accusation, I have clearly told them: "I don't 'think' I'm better. I KNOW I'm better!" Mouths drop open.
About class mobility guilt: How is it that Black women are engaging in "survivor's guilt" when they're NOT surviving? Yes, there are many, many layers of confused thinking going on with this issue.
_________________________
Greetings, Pioneer Valley Woman!
About the Catherine Deneuve conversation: Yep. Folks are usually irate when their day passes to Fantasy Island are revoked. It's one of the costs of running a waystation for the new Black Women's Mind-Freeing Underground Railroad.
Responding to irate & disgruntled audience members is the cost of doing this work. [Gina at What About Our Daughters has mentioned a support network for former disgruntled readers of her blog! LOL!]
In terms of the domestics, I don't know what's going on with that scenario because I get the feeling that most of these women are immigrants. So, I can't speak to the dynamics of that situation. I know the historical dynamics from when it was still AA women working as domestics (my maternal grandmother was a maid). But we were replaced by immigrants decades ago.
As I meditate more & more about Benjamin "Pap" Singleton & other AAs from that era, I find that I'm losing interest in the "whatever will we do about __________ barrier?" concerns. AAs have overcome much greater odds under much worse conditions. When did we become so mentally helpless? What's that about?
In terms of the transportation barrier/issue: How did Mr. Singleton & other AAs get from Tennessee to Kansas? How did he get from Tennessee to Detroit & Canada during earlier periods in his life? Why is it that our ancestors could figure ways around MUCH bigger obstacles, while we supposedly "can't"?
I'm also struck by how old Mr. Singleton was when he was leading these Exoduster journeys. He was already a senior citizen! So...here was this elderly man dealing with the life & death pressures of functioning as a "Moses" for his fellow former captives.
I'm sure the local racists were NOT at all pleased to see so many of their "serfs" escape from Tennessee. I'm sure that this entire endeavor was quite dangerous. Not to mention how Mr. Singleton kept struggling even after some of his "Moses" projects failed (in part due to active White sabotage).
People like Mr. Singleton are part of AAs' blood & heritage! What are we talking about when we moan "whatever will we do?" and "we 'can't' do blah-blah"?
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Before Black people begin running for their lives, they better make sure they run to the right places. Suburbia may not be the best option for Black people. Some experts believe the energy and oil crisis may lead to the suburbs becoming the new ghettos. Many Black neighboards on the East Coast surround the downtown areas, these are gold mines. Many whites are looking to move back to these areas. Leaving their cars behind, walking to work, museums, plays, retaurants, markets, etc.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r17begefKA , the movie, The end of suburbia.
I know I sound gullible but thing with Rev. King cheating on Coretta with WHITE women always shocks me even when I hear about it again.
ReplyDeleteTalk about boldness and audacity, I guess black people really WERE quite bold back in the day!
I guess the FBI did want to blackmail MLK with the audio tapes of his phone conversations with those chicks, but I'm sure the authorities didn't just want to send the tapes on to Coretta, they probably wanted to give those tapes to the KKK and similar organisations to fire up their side and make them angry giving them creedance to their 'n****** rape white women' argument! So that they could shut MLK up for a while and keep him out of focus!
Khadija, my subdivision is away from the satanic strongholds. Yet, there is an "element" that moved into my neighborhood from Miami, bringing the physical action that comes with the mindset of the permanent underclass. I have an issue involving the courts that I am facing with this "element" at this time and of course I can't go into details about the case. Yet, as my family heads to court against this "element" I have to keep in the back of my mind that I may have to prepare to go to physical war with these beings. I cannot allow them to think that I am unable to go into a physical battle with them. Its all well and good to talk about helping the "element" and all but I KNOW this mindset and it doesn't respect so called civilized battle. Not only should we run, but we should also arm ourselves and prepare should the "element" follow. As the original Black Panther Party for Self Defense taught, all Black people should have weapons at in their house.
ReplyDelete@ AK
ReplyDeleteI am not sure why it shocks you that MLK Jr. would cheat on Coretta with white women...it shocks ME that he had a sex addiction and didn't get help...it shocks ME that he risked so much by keeping his sickness a huge secret. The fact that many women were WHITE doesn't shock me...MLK Jr. was never anti-white and I don't think that he ever publicly conveyed a DISTRUST of white people as an entire entity.
_______________________________
@ AfricanParenting
These white experts do not seem to understand what MAKES a ghetto "ghetto" if they think that the scarcity of fuel is what exacerbates the dynamics that Khadija is describing in her series on Inner Slum.
Whites ARE moving back to the areas that are regentrified in every major city in this country...and it is so interesting that there is a greater police presence surrounding these "white entry" residential sites that are found in the middle of delapidated sections of town.
Their pre-teen WHITE daughters aren't being gang-raped by neighborhood boys...aren't facing sexual predators on every corner...aren't facing indifference and shrugs when calling upon the police...suddenly business owners who had no interest at all in coming to that part of town SUDDENLY are interested in the white consumers who have moved in and whites start opening up businesses tailored to whites who are in the "white entry" enclave of that part of town.
Whites who move to the inner city to NOT encounter the same equation that blacks who have been there must take...that's for sure...and the whites who move in begin community-policing EVERY aspect of their daily lives and protesting ANYTHING that infringes on their peace.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Lisa: want to mention that for many black people...dare I even say ...black women who have been conditioned by imbalanced emotional contracts...PAIN and SUFFERING is familiar and becomes an appendage...
ReplyDeleteI get all kinds of notes from readers of my blog who are BAFFLED that my childhood was so different than their own...they actually had NO idea that all black children did not have the same existence...a part of them wants so much to discard it and disbelieve what their ears have heard!! That is just how radical it is for them to embrace this notion that all blacks are not in the Walking Wounded Cult.
When pain and suffering becomes part of the black woman's identity then it is an expectation for her of her daily existence...and this means she will see NO reason to cut out and run for her life...because in her mind...pain and suffering is NOT to be escaped from because THAT is what black life consists of...
Lisa: I think that plenty of black women who are still DEEPLY connected to having the validation of their own families are afraid of the rejection and scorn they will face by leaving the 'hood!
Some know that they will hear:
"Oh, you think you are better than us?"
Perhaps some don't want to even address that fear of being accused by other blacks of feeling superior. Black women seem to be deeply offended if they are TOLD they feel they are superior.
My father made it CLEAR that he didn't teach his children to desire to be equals to anyone. He told my professors,"I don't teach my children to be content to be equals. I show them why they are superior."
The other reason why some black women are reluctant to cut out and run for their lives has to do with the paralyzing guilt of class mobility...they don't want to leave the 'hood and move far away from that element knowing that their family members are "stuck" in that environment...
There are so many layers to examine.
Lisa, Lisa yes yes yes.
You have the kind of intelligence which is so great and useful for clarifying and pointing out to people what is plain as day right in front of them, like the nose on one's face!
LOL I think you have a useful gift that people should appreciate!
Why do blacks want to believe that no rich, upper middle class black people ever existed in the history of the US or Africa or anywhere?
Isn't that a strange attitude to take after years of PROMINENCE on TV through shows like The Cosby Show and Fresh Prince of Bel-Air?
That's so weird! You really want to believe that no black person ever grew up with a maid, housekeeper, nanny, or a butler?
Why? Why don't you want to believe that a rich black person could hire those people to help run your home when rich whites do this all the time?
Why do you want to only hear about every overworked, underappreciated black woman or man all the time as if there can't conceivably be any triumph in life? LOL
Why can't a black woman believe that she by herself, and as an individual is the very BEST, the BEST LOOKING, the BRIGHTEST, and most worthy?
It's practically 2009 right now; I feel like it's already Xmas! But I don't care! I have heard all blacks and whites talk about how black women seem to be arrogant and 'up themselves'.
I have seen posted on blog from a black man's blog about how this certain black man's brother went to college with a now snobby educated accomplished black woman who came from Compton in LA and he felt this woman didn't want to re-acquaint herself with his brother or was being condescending to him.
He feels like no black woman from a poor neighborhood should ever be snobby or ever show that she feels the very best about herself, without waiting for somebody else's lame permission to feel good!
And so what if a black woman is too snooty, snobby, condescending, or bitchy, just drop her! You don't have to be friends with her and vice versa!
But why does a black woman have to humble up herself to make every person, or every black person, more comfortable or more 'so'? Hmm?
You want to decree how a black woman should always be or be acting whether she's accomplished or not, yet would you like to be told what to think or what to do?
No?
Why can't a black person feel superior? Why not? We have a short life and it gets agonisingly banal enough with all the 'isms' thrown up against us as it is!
The weapon against that all is to KNOW yourself without being dictated to and to KNOW that you are the best and have the potential!
Why do blacks want to tear down each other with the old crab in a barrel foolishness?
THAT'S what's holding em back in the ghetto and nothing else! That way of thinking will never breed respect for yourself let alone other blacks just like you from your same humble beginnings IF that's what you had!
Greetings, Afrikan Parenting!
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying to run to or from cities or suburbs. I'm saying that Black people who want to survive and thrive must evacuate Black residential areas. In short, we must run from places where there are heavy concentrations of other Black folks.
There are some all-Black suburbs just outside Chicago. These places are hell-pits. The distinction I'm making is not between city or suburb. It's between majority-Black residential areas & areas that are not majority/heavily populated by Blacks.
I'm deeply concerned about peak oil and most Black folks' total lack of interest or preparation. That's why I have a link to a peak oil website on my sidebar. Black folks are a large portion of the fools who are still buying SUVs.
Fossil fuels are heavily involved in the production, transportation, and storage of our food. The vast majority of the food that Black folks eat is NOT grown locally.
Black residential areas are already violent, dangerous places. And this is while the grocery store trucks are still rolling into the 'hood. This is while the lights are still on in the 'hood. This is while the heat & water is turned on in the 'hood.
Since Black residential areas are already violent WITH these resources available, what does anybody think will happen when: there are constant rolling blackouts; when the grocery store trucks stop rolling in so frequently; when the water supply is intermittent, etc?
Do we really believe that our already disruptive and/or violent Black neighbors are going to allow us to grow our own garden vegetables in peace? Will they leave us alone in peace in our homes during the rolling blackouts? I think not.
I submit to you that if conditions are already life-threatening in Black residential areas, they will only become more deadly if/when peak oil hits.
____________________________
Hello there, AK!
From what I recall of this, the FBI's main point was to try to pressure Dr. King into committing suicide.
You know, the really pitiful thing is that many of these 1950s/1960s Black male activists' proved the Klan right about their TRUE motivations: I'm convinced that the bulk of these Black male activists were involved in the movement in order to ultimately have increased access to White women.
Actions speak louder than words. Just think about the actions of men like Harry Belafonte and the rest of them. It's quite clear that this wasn't about helping the Black collective (although that was Black male activists' cover story).
Whatever gains accrued to Black women & children from the movement was clearly by accident, NOT by design. The real point was about Black male activist's egos & self-interest.
While Black women did the thankless grunt work in these organizations, Black male leaders posed in front of the cameras, chased White women, and cheated on their wives with movement "groupies."
This basic pattern continues today. Black women are most of the foot soldiers in Black male-led organizations like the NAACP, Operation Push, and the National Action Network. Black women do most of the grunt work in these organizations that systematically ignore Black women's interests!
The only Black organization that I can think of that doesn't have a majority of female footsoldiers is the Nation of Islam.
___________________________
Greetings, Ensayn!
May your victory over the "element" be both swift & lasting. Ameen!
You know that I agree that more of us have to prepare ourselves to defend ourselves (and our families) against the element. Unfortunately, the element likes to follow decent Black people everywhere we go.
The element will defile their own areas to the point that even they don't want to be there anymore. At this point, they start looking for new places to defile with their presence and their evil.
I believe the first step is to separate these predators from their prey (the rest of us). That's why I'm saying that we have to flee Black residential areas. These areas are filled to the brim with all sorts of predators. You can't defend the decent people in an area when they are intermingled with the element.
There has to be some space established between the predators & the prey. That's only way a defensive perimeter can work. A "gate" is of no use when the enemy is living INSIDE the gate with you!
I praise God for Black men like you who understand that we have to defend ourselves against these predators. Too many of us are still confused and still focused on trying to caress, massage & stroke the predators. All under the guise of "reaching out" to them; and "reclaiming them."
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Let me piggyback on a point that Lisa just made to clarify why I'm making this call to run for our lives OUT of Black residential areas.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying to flee Black residential areas in order to simply be around non-Blacks.
I'm saying to flee to non-Black areas because non-Blacks (especially Whites) still have the will & the common sense to protect themselves and their areas from predators!
Somewhere along the way (in the 1960s), AAs became confused about the need to defend ourselves against predators. We adopted an ideology of coddling & caressing criminals. Now things have reached a point that many AAs will defend & minimize absolutely ANY atrocity that Black predators commit (see the many inappropriate responses to R.Kelly, Dunbar Village, etc.).
Most of us have lost the WILL to defend & maintain safety in our own areas. We are mostly NOT willing to do anything that is likely to be effective in combatting crime.
I still have a soft spot in my heart for the fantasy of resurrecting the healthy, all-Black middle class neighborhoods like the one I was blessed to grow up in. The places that have since been defiled by the element.
But the problem is that confused, decent Black folks resist anything that would really work to reclaim these areas: We don't want to hire private, armed security. We don't want to take up arms ourselves. Much of the time, we don't even want the predators arrested & imprisoned! Instead, we want to talk smack about mostly non-existent & totally ineffective "alternative solutions."
Since AAs have become too confused to take the actions needed to safeguard our own lives, we need to "borrow" the benefits of other people's common sense & will. We need to flee to non-Black areas where the residents have the common sense & will to do what they must to protect themselves against predators.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
To add to the discussion about bw as foot soldiers and bw blindly supporting bm, you can observe another operating 'orphan precept', which started out as:
ReplyDelete'support black men beause the white man is undermining his efforts to be the provider and protector of his family'
along the years this shortened to: 'Support the black man because of the white man'.
Now we have simply 'support the black man,' a wholesale concept in itself and one which is now totally disconnected from the original intent to support bm IN their efforts for their families and the black group.
And so with this 'program' in operation, bw are jumping to the support of every and any bm, even those who have raped, abused and gang banged.
black folk have always been pratical and pragmatic in their philosophy and it served well, we lost it when we went all 'touchy feely' brotherhood among blacks.
-------------------------------
Thanks Rev Lisa for your kind words
Hello there, Halima!
ReplyDelete{wild cheering & whistles from the audience}
And there you have it! The morphing of an idea that was originally functional in its context into something profoundly dysfunctional.
Now that you've laid it out like that, it reminds me of the ever-shifting & manipulated "commandments for animals" in George Orwell's novel Animal Farm. And the end result is the same: what had started off as a ideas in support of COLLECTIVE Black liberation (from White oppression) are twisted into ideas in support of another form of oppression (BM's tyranny over BW).
And most of us are like the sheep in the book mindlessly repeating the slogan "Four legs good, two legs bad." Instead, we're chanting things like "save our young Black men," "Black men are an endangered species," etc.
There is no critical thinking applied to these slogans or anything else. Very few people think to ask:
1-Why are Black women being asked to save "young Black men"? How did this become our assignment?
2-How do you "save" young Black men when THEY are the ones killing EACH OTHER? It's not like some outsiders are coming in to kill them. They are killing themselves! And the rest of us, right along with them.
3-WHY should anybody try to "save" folks who are so set on self-termination? How does this benefit the rest of us who want to live in peace, and survive and thrive? Especially when such salvation efforts have mostly failed up to today? Shouldn't we prioritize saving our own lives before we even consider worrying about the predators?
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@ Halima
ReplyDeleteI am sooo happy that you have put these truths on the table so plainly. I am sure many are reading along and not commenting.
These perspectives SEEM obvious to you or I but they don't become "real" to many others until it stares them in the face.
@ Khadija
I think that the "save black men" brain washing was instilled in most black women who accept that IMBALANCED emotional contract by their own mothers who felt black women should stand by black men. Those mothers were from another era.
There is another layer of this we need to scrutinize closely...it has to do with the acceptance of illegitimacy.
Let me set up the backdrop....
We know that probably 60% of black children are born out of wedlock.
We also know that black women - for the most part - have normalized this atrocity. Black women perpetuate this atrocity. ("It takes two to tango" they say. Crapola! They know they are the ones responsible for child-rearing in the black community so they are FULLY aware that the weight of the sex act falls to them more often than NOT!)
The black community no longer uses the terms "bastard" children and "illegitimate" children (well, we don't usually USE THEM in front of single mothers who have children out of wedlock!) Those terms are STILL being used in the upper classes because having illegitimate children is STILL being viewed as a disgrace in the upper classes.
I worked in an office and black women put up photos of themselves grinning with children by different fathers! No shame at all. They would announce their pregnancies with excitement..not shame. {shaking my head}
So how is this acceptance of illegitimacy tied to the reluctance of black women to FLEE the community they closely identify with?
1. Black women have always taken on the responsibility of children...this means that they feel RESPONSIBLE for the black community.
I didn't like Jada Pinkett's book, Girls Hold Up This World but she's been conditioned in Baltimore and she THINKS that is our role!
It is not.
2. Black women do not feel that we should abandon these black youth. Even the sexual predators and the criminals who are black youth! Remember Whitney's song, "I believe the children are our future..."? Most black women take THAT mantra to the grave.
They won't say "I believe these children are our DEMISE." However, in many black communities, that would be true. Dunbar Village is an example...the adolescents were raping and robbing the adult women! Regularly!
Many black women who are single mothers empathize with the other single mothers out there who had these boys out of wedlock. Blavk women tend to closely identify with persons whose situations mirrow their own choices. Therefore, many identify with the plight of these women raising children on their own who are failing as parents.
These women can not condemn the criminal behaviors of these adolescents because their own children are illegitimate with "visiting" fathers or absent fathers and they think "it's sooo hard to raise these kids alone". They feel sympathy - NOT outrage.
So I am asking you...and asking Halima...what will it take to change the mentality from sympathy that produces a sense of obligation to "help save"...to detachment that produces a sense of entitlement towards self-preservation?
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Ooooooooh, Lisa!
ReplyDeleteI can almost hear blood vessels in many heads exploding just from reading your last comment! LOL! There are lots of previously-sacred cows perishing up in here.
Especially when you said "They won't say 'I believe these children are our DEMISE!' However, in many black communities, that would be true. Dunbar Village is an example...the adolescents were raping and robbing the adult women! Regularly!" I wholeheartedly agree that these superpredator Black adolescents will be the death of the rest of us.
Here are my initial thoughts in response to your question:
We change the sympathy equation by creating a MUCH higher price tag for the sympathy. This will require unpleasant choices. We also need to speak "plainly" about this. So, I'm going to say these things the blunt & harsh way.
Part of the problem is that (for the most part) the serial baby mamas do not see decent married Black women. There are now legions of serial baby mamas. In fact, the baby mamas are now the majority of Black mothers. This is a disgrace in addition to being a problem.
The more important part of the problem is that the married BW that the baby mamas do see are generally NOT living any better than them. For a variety of reasons. The Black marriages that do exist are genrally not healthy or wholesome. This is a problem on many, many levels.
For example, historically the majority of AAs were always poor. However, we aspired to live like the more affluent Black folks we saw around us in the days of segregation. Poor Blacks saw things about the Black middle class' lifestyles that were markedly BETTER than what they were experiencing.
Seeing living examples of a better life helped provide added incentive to make some changes (such as getting an education) that would lead to enjoying such a lifestyle.
This is why it's such a serious problem that most married BW can be observed to NOT be living any better than the serial baby-mamas. People know. People can tell. Folks aren't blind. Other women can tell how shaky a marriage must be just from looking at the insecurities on display.
When BW settle for, marry, and remain with men who are cheating, other women can tell. When BW settle for, marry and remain with men who are beating them, other women can tell. When BW settle for, marry, remain with, and FINANCIALLY SUPPORT no-working Black men, other women can tell. When BW are married to men that they are desperately afraid will leave them, other women can tell.
Married BW who are involved in these scenarios are NOT any better off than the baby-mamas. The baby-mamas can see this. So, there's really no obvious incentive for the baby mamas to hold out for marriage before bearing children.
I suspect that turning the sympathy equation around is a long-term process. The solution brings together the various aspects of the calls that you, Evia and others have been making to BW.
Step 1-Do what we can to encourage more BW to form healthy, wholesome marriages. This means that more BW will have to marry outside the race. So, your work (as well as Evia's & others) in encouraging BW to step outside the "nothing but a BM" & xenophobia coffins comes into play. Your call for BW to stop being gravediggers also comes into play.
Step 2-Strengthen & create safe, wholesome, uplifting places and activities for these well-married BW & their families to participate in. This is where mutual cooperation and fellowship come into play. We'll have to flee Black residential areas to escape the immediate threats to our lives.
However, in the long run we really need to make connections between our families so our children don't lose their cultural heritage. Being the only Black child in the midst of non-Blacks is not healthy. There has to be some outlet for being among other sane, decent Black children. I believe this was the original reason why folks started up Jack & Jill.
Step 3-Enforce sanctions against, and withhold assistance from, serial baby mamas, baby-mamas who sympathize with predators & predator-generaing mothers. AND THEIR BASTARD CHILDREN. Here comes the unpleasant & ugly part. We're going to have to make a point of excluding serial baby-mamas AND their children from the benefits of the places & activities we strengthen & create in Step #2.
BW who are on the fence about becoming serial baby-mamas have to see examples of how well-married BW are living BETTER than the serial baby-mamas. They also have to see that serial baby-mamas & their kids MISS OUT on very important & worthwhile things. There has to be a recognizable, HEAVY price to pay for serial baby-mama & sympathy for predators behavior.
What AAs have lost sight of is that in most healthy societies, bastard children are typically EXCLUDED from participating in all sorts of things. Historically, bastards were NOT accepted as part of decent society. They did NOT inherit anything. They were NOT admitted to certain schools. They could NOT work in certain professions.
People who had anything to lose weren't looking to produce or be caught up with bastard children because there were consequences attached to this if it became known.
Traditionally, you CANNOT be considered a gentleman or a lady if you are a bastard. Lisa's point is well-taken. The elites in various ethnic groups still hold to this position.
It also has echoes of a point that Lisa made in one of her posts. Black fraternities and sororities have admitted folks in recent decades that would NEVER have been let in before. Black frats & sororities used to have a more elite profile. The same with Blacks in the professions. They have since been downgraded into common, and often no-class-at-all gatherings.
This is what happens when too many unassimilated, unreconstructed strivers are let into things---the quality drops. Dramatically. I saw this happen when I was in college 20+ years ago. They started letting project kids who were college students into the Black fraternities & sororities.
This is how gangbanger behaviors infiltrated the Black Greek organizations. This is when DEATHS caused by hazing started happening in noticably much larger numbers in Black Greek organizations. Excluding project kids from these groups would have prevented this.
I think we're going to have to get back to practicing exclusion if we want folks to catch the hint that it's not a good idea to blithely produce bastard children. But the first step is to have things of value in place to exclude the serial baby-mamas & their bastard children from.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hi Khadija i dont know how i lost my manners. you must forgive me. My greetings to you and yours and thanks for allowing me the opportunity of commenting on your blog!
ReplyDeleteHello there, Halima!
ReplyDelete{excited waving}
Don't worry about it. It's all good! Your comments have really raised the level of this conversation. And given the audience (including the silent audience and ME) MUCH to consider. Thank you!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
So I am asking you...and asking Halima...what will it take to change the mentality from sympathy that produces a sense of obligation to "help save"...to detachment that produces a sense of entitlement towards self-preservation?
ReplyDeleteRev Lisa
i wish i knew.
As you said, bw have been strongly conditioned. I think a reconditioning is in order and like Khadija said, bw need to see other women living full and fulfilled lives by choosing to go against the laid down rules of sacrifice and more sacrifice as their portion.
Right now all we have is more of the same being broadcast and preached and regurgitated from every platform. The valid alternative has no presence (except on blogs and the 'underground').
Clearly the alternative to what bw have now is attractive that it just needs more visibility and role models to break the guilt and automatic conformity.
Some more thoughts about the salutary effects of exclusion:
ReplyDeleteSometimes you have to risk sounding cruel in order to be kind over the long run. I've learned from interacting with the client population that dysfunctional Blacks interpret polite silence as VALIDATION of whatever mess they are engaged in.
I more or less feel the way my Dad does about bastard children. We can let ONE bastard baby go. After all, people DO fumble with birth control, and not everybody is willing to get an abortion. However, this only applies if the person has the proper attitude about the situation and recognizes that producing a bastard child was a MISTAKE.
The problem is that most Black folks think that it's just fine & dandy to have bastard children. We're even offended when people take note of these kids' illegitimacy. We want to pretend that it's just the same as having them within a marriage. NO, it's not! And as much as we want to deny the difference, we can see the difference in the effect that a majority bastard child rate has had on the AA collective.
I see this in court all the time. When child welfare agencies swoop in & remove children from a mother's care, that's when some Negro "fathers" come out of the woodwork talking about they want "their" kids sent to them.
I can't count the number of previously shacked-up Negroes who are SHOCKED when I tell them the following about the children in the former shack-up household that they are not biologically related to:
"Legally, you are a stranger to the other kids that are not your biological children. You did not marry the mother. And you did not adopt these children within a marriage to the mother. You currently have NO right to visitation or anything else to these other kids. As far as the court system is concerned, you are 'Stranger Danger' to these other kids. If you want these other kids in your home, you will have to apply to become their foster parent just like any other stranger off the street."
This comes from decades of AAs acting as if shacking up & illegitimacy are as valid as marriage. Well, it's NOT valid in the real world. Nobody (else) respects that. There are minimal rights attached to that.
Decent people remaining silent to be polite has helped enable this confused attitude to become entrenched.
It's a similar thing with unassimilated & unreconstructed strivers. It's okay to have strivers around in previously more upscale settings IF they are willing to adapt and adopt middle-class behaviors & attitudes. Like ALL previous generations of Black strivers did when they made the leap into the middle class.
It's NOT okay for them to come to middle-class environments & professions expecting everybody else to adapt to their slum behaviors & "hateration" of middle-class people. Everybody else's polite silence has allowed these unassimilated, dysfunctional strivers to think that what they're doing & their "hateration" attitudes are cool. It's not.
This is how you end up with striver Black attorneys thinking that it's okay to use Ebonics in court. And them copping an attitude when folks try to gently disabuse them of this notion.
I also start to wonder the following about dysfunctional strivers & their hateration for the Black middle class: "Since you hate & resent us so much, why do you keep coming around us & our activities? Remember, you came to us & our environment. We were minding our own business. We never came to you for anything."
If there was a way to discreetly "interview" folks to see where their heads are at, and then screen out based on that, I'd be all for it. But there's no way to "politely" interview.
There's no way to find out if a baby-mama recognizes that having the bastard baby was a mistake; or whether she thinks it's just dandy. I think when a woman is a serial baby-mama, it's safe to assume that she thinks that it's just dandy. Therefore, serial baby-mamas/daddys should be screened out.
The same with the strivers. If they're showing signs of hateration and/or slum behaviors, they should be screened out.
I can't think of a practical way the Black frats/sororities could have interviewed the project kids to see where their heads were at before they let them in. It would have saved some Black students' lives to keep ALL of the project kids out of the Black fraternities/sororities. Increased Black hazing FATALITIES were the result of letting these gangbanger-influenced kids into these groups about 25 years ago.
We can all see the result that our wholesale acceptance of such individuals has had on the Black collective and Blacks in the professions.
All of this is quite ugly & unpleasant to recount. It's even uglier to contemplate. But we have to start speaking the truth out loud if we're going to make headway in solving our problems.
If someone has a better idea than exclusion to help get our people on track, please let me know. I'm all ears.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Thank you so much, Khadija!
ReplyDeleteYou fully understand what our parents understood when they had to take some drastic measures with us...they wanted the VERY BEST for us. We have to take drastic measures with our OWN people in order to convey the truth and smash the chains of silence and complicity.
The other part of this examination that I feel is important is the Christian angle that many are held captive to. (I realize you are a Muslim but bear with me for a second! *smiles*)
Many black women in the Christian community hear "don't judge others!" and "God is the judge!" and therefore, they THINK that they should not make any distinction between trifling behavior and honorable behavior...or between irresponsible life choices and mature life choices.
Many feel that if they DENOUNCE illegitimacy then they are "judging" others. Many are now trapped into thinking that being a Christian REQUIRES never speaking about what is godly and what is not. So many do not understand what RIGHTEOUSNESS requires. Many think that pointing out is vile and trifling is what constitutes "self-righteousness". They are wrong.
I wish I had a dollar for every time some black person with slave thinking tried to tell me "but you are a MINISTER, so how can you say________?! That's judging!"
This foolishness reflects just how much misteaching has infiltrated the church.
One woman said, "I can't judge someone else's child because my own child isn't perfect!" That is HARDLY the point. We aren't speaking about BERATING imperfect children!! We are speaking about vicious adolescents who are raping women in Dunbar Village and Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor Homes...and plenty of other places.
There are plenty of women in the church with children with different men and they have normalized this behavior. It's interesting how bashing the gay lifestyle in the black church is A-OKAY but bashing the acceptance of illegitimacy IS NOT?
How many times will a Christian hear: "who are YOU to judge?! God is the judge!"
I want to say that this mindset is uncommon - but it isn't.
This is another layer that must be examined when we discuss WHY there is inaction and a refusal to speak against these super-predators in the black communities.
We hear in so many churches, "well, everyone makes mistakes and God forgives". This lulls the mind into NOT addressing the vile element in their own backyard...or in the bedroom down the hall. {shaking my head}
It makes a person DEVOID of conscience when normalizing vile conduct is the rule of the day. I am concerned that our people DO this in so many different ways and do not realize it.
I hope that Hagar's Daughter and Pioneer Valley Woman are reading along because I'd like to hear some of their perspectives as clergywomen on the "do not judge others" cloak of avoidance to perpetuate this mentality of normalizing dysfunctional decisions and normalizing an absence of morals.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Thank YOU so much, Lisa!
ReplyDeleteYou are raising the level of this conversation with your input. I don't mind discussing how the distortion of Christian teachings impacts our people. It's all connected. I hope that the other Christian clergrywomen will join the conversation and add their expertise to the analysis. I can't speak to that angle.
Yes, I AM beginning to understand why our parents took certain harsh-seeming postures. This was literally life & death! And it's life & death right now. As I've mentioned before, I have a sense of urgency about these issues because I'm looking at the wreckage of all of this at work everyday.
Let me give just one example of how AAs' mass acceptance of shacking & illegitimacy has directly & grievously harmed Black children. I mentioned earlier how so many BM clients are shocked to learn that they have NO rights regarding the non-biologically related children in their former shack-up households.
I also mentioned how such men are shocked that they have to apply to become foster parents to these non-biological kids just like any other (legal) stranger when child welfare takes these children away from the mothers.
One of my colleagues represented a BM who had this situation, and this man actually followed through on applying to become these non-biological kids' foster father. [Wonder of wonders.] Well, this application process takes time.
Of course, child welfare placed these non-biological children with strangers while he went through the process.
Several of these non-biological children were molested while they were placed in that stranger's home! This man would have had rights to get them immediately, and this could have been prevented if he had originally married the mother & adopted these kids instead of just shacking!
He found out the hard way that shacking leaves children vulnerable. In a lot of ways. And that doing things the right way protects everybody involved in the process. Meanwhile, these children paid the price for all of this. Off the top of my head, I don't remember if they contracted a STD behind this incident. It's hard to remember.
It's hard for me to remember because this type of scenario happens all the time. Mostly with Black children. Other races of men are more likely to marry the woman & adopt her prior children. Therefore, THEIR children are less likely to be "up for grabs" when something goes wrong with the mother.
Marriage matters. Legitimacy matters.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Greetings, ladies, I have been called out.
ReplyDeleteI'm here.
How have I thought of these comments that both you (Khadija) and Rev. Lisa are making, about "judge not, lest one is judged," so folks in the community take no stance whatsoever in the face of evil.
I have been thinking of this recently, in light of the push/pull between secularists and people of faith, that secular folks say, certain things are between the individual and God (if s/he believes) and so notions of morality have no place in the public sphere.
It is a similar dynamic. In the community, no one is supposed to judge, so it is all about moral relativism. The same moral relativism goes for Christians v. the secular culture.
When I have spoken to my students about this, I remind them that there was a time when many Americans could agree on basic moral standards, whether one was a Christian or not, the "secular Christianity" that drove much of public morality.
So I can't buy secularists' arguments that morals have no role in the public sphere. I might take issue with how people of faith seek to influence the public sphere, but I can't say that we can't have any discussions of morality, because that reeks of "religion," and there is a "separation between church and state."
The first amendment was about the ban against establishing a state religion, as compared to morality (driven by some people's religious views) having no role in the public sphere.
speaking of the family law stuff, I used to show my students the uniform parentage act and explain to them exactly who and what a mother or father is under the law.
ReplyDeleteWe would talk about who are children, and the rights they have, and the problem, as you described it, of baby mamas and baby daddies.
I used to tell them, that if a woman has a child out of wedlock, there is no legal father. He is the father only if he chooses to be (files an acknowledgment of paternity and/or has his name put on the birth certificate), or the courts force him to be, ie., by paternity testing.
The local town hall had information on it too, so I explained what the state's rules were, as an application from its own developments stemming from the uniform parentage act.
I showed them the requirements for marriage in the state, and how to get married civilly, including the differences between civil and religious marriage, that religious marriages are only binding if the civil requirements are met...So there is no need for a big religious ceremony--just go to the court house, make it legal and protect everyone--the men, the women, and the children!
All sorts of great stuff available through the state government websites--the law on line. People need to go on line and find out their state's laws regarding these matters.
Hey Khadija and Lisa Did you come across this story in any news at all?:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wral.com/lifestyles/healthteam/story/3956598/
Hello there, AK!
ReplyDeleteNo, I hadn't seen that article before. Thanks for sharing it. I just read it a moment ago. {shudder}{groan}{twitch} There's a LOT of work to be done . . . {sigh}
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"You know, the really pitiful thing is that many of these 1950s/1960s Black male activists' proved the Klan right about their TRUE motivations: I'm convinced that the bulk of these Black male activists were involved in the movement in order to ultimately have increased access to White women."
ReplyDelete"While Black women did the thankless grunt work in these organizations, Black male leaders posed in front of the cameras, chased White women, and cheated on their wives with movement "groupies."
I don't know where to start with that. Those are demonstrably untrue statements. They are more akin to what I would expect to read at VDARE, Vanguard or Stormfront.
Would you think those statements apply to J.L. Chestnut? Medgar Evers? Fred Hampton? Malcolm X? Geronimo Pratt? Kwame Toure? Bobby Hutton? John Lewis?
Those men and many others put their lives, well being and freedom on the line to bring about a better life for Black people and oppressed people across the world. To try to reduce their motivations to seeking increased access to white women is an incredible insult to them and the changes they did bring about. It's a fundamental misreading of their motivations.
As far as other leaders who did marry or sleep with white women or white men-so what? They own their life-not you or me. Harry Belafonte has been on the forefront of social activism since day one. He did so at great personal cost to himself and his family. He did so at a time when most Black entertainers and musicians kept their mouth shut and their head down. Belafonte stepped up to the plate when profiles in courage like Zora Neale Hurston were criticizing the 1954 Brown decision.
The personal is not the political.
It bears pointing out again that vast majority of married Black men are married to Black women. That's the case now and it was the case during the Civil Rights Struggle.
As far as Black people fleeing majority Black areas, I don't think that solves any problems. The most obvious constraint is that whites are incredibly sensitive to the number of Blacks in their neighborhood. Once that magic tipping point has been reached (usually somewhere between 5% and 8%)generally whites start moving out. If most Blacks are as dangerous and depraved as some suggest, why would whites want to live around any Blacks? After all whites can't really tell the difference between the "good ones" and "bad ones" so they tend to err on the side of caution.
Welcome, Shady Grady!
ReplyDeleteActions speak MUCH louder than words.
I notice that you glossed right over the 9 (10 if you count Harry Belafonte's fascination with White women) separate examples that I listed. Could it be because you cannot dispute the truth behind this litany of choices that these men made? These men did what they did. If it doesn't look so heroic or altruistic when it's laid out in a list, that's on them. If it doesn't look good, that's on them.
Also, I wouldn't be so fast to claim that Kwame Toure was a friend to Black women. This is the same individual (when named Stokely Carmichael) who said that Black women's proper position in the movement was "the prone position."
I beg to differ with you. I believe that the personal IS political. Activists' failures to practice what they preach undermines whatever work they're doing.
Furthermore, I wonder how many nameless, uncelebrated Black women would have served as grunts and cannon fodder for these men if they let them know upfront about their true intentions & motivations (as demonstrated by their ACTIONS:
"Hear ye, hear ye Black women. We Black male leaders want you to risk your lives on the front lines of the civil rights movement. Do thankless grunt work. Risk getting beaten AND gang-raped by Southern racists (NOBODY EVER mentions this angle to throwing Black women on the front lines of the civil rights movement). All so we can pose in front of the cameras, cheat on our wives, chase White women and have sex with movement groupies."
I wonder how many Black women would have risked their lives for that?
Here's my bottom line: Maybe YOU don't have a problem with this behavior. But so far, this behavior hasn't worked for any Black woman that I've mentioned this to. This behavior does NOT serve Black women's interests. We are NOT under any obligation to pay homage to men who betrayed & exploited us while claiming to advance the entire Black collective.
These male leaders' actions WERE a betrayal of the many Black women that they exploited as nameless, thankless foot soldiers. A betrayal that more Black women need to be made aware of. So we won't be taken advantage of again. The historical record about these men's actions speaks volumes about what they were about.
As far as running for our lives, what is your answer to the life-threateniing conditions that exist in Black residential areas?
Since you haven't suggested any alternative solutions, it sounds like you want us to remain in place. While the bullets whizz over our heads. While our neighbors are being carjacked. While our children like Blair Holt (in Chicago) are shot dead on their way home from school. While dozens of Black children are shot while going to & from school in Black resdidential areas in cities like Chicago. WHILE OUR LIVES ARE IN DANGER.
I beg to differ with you. Running works. It works for those of us who get out and run away. Those of us who ran are not living under these conditions anymore.
If you have a better idea than running for our lives, I would really like to hear it.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
If I was living in a predom. black area where I was consistently harassed and often felt unsafe, I would move if I had the means at all, period.
ReplyDeleteI value my health and sanity, I am worthy of protection.
We all need to think this way.
Better a studio apt in a safe neighborhood than a 2 bedroom apt in an unsafe one.
Welcome, Forever Loyal!
ReplyDeleteIt boils down to choosing LIFE (and the chance of abundant life) over continued suffering and/or DEATH.
As you've noted, it's really that simple. And I find it quite telling that those who want us to remain in danger don't have any ideas about how to reduce the existing threats to our lives. The underlying message is that, apparently, many of us don't feel like we are entitled to live any better than to have bullets flying over our heads, etc.
I've said "NO" to all of that. Like you, I value my life and peace of mind!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija,
ReplyDeleteI did not respond specifically to your 9 separate examples because in my opinion they are largely irrelevant to whatever greater point you wish to make. With the exception of Chavis and Mfume and possible harassment, or Muhammad and underage predation, no crimes were committed. You are cherry picking 9 examples (over a 100 year period and wildly different environments!) of Black men behaving in ways that YOU disagree with in order to make an incorrect point about Black male involvement in the civil rights movements.
In addition, at least two of your points are just flat out wrong. NEITHER of Marcus Garvey's wives were "light-near White-looking". Both were brown skinned Pan-Africanist feminists who were as active in the movement as Garvey was and remained so long after Garvey had passed from the scene. Amy Jacques and Amy Ashwood were important fascinating people in their own right.
I don't know of any evidence that there was a systematic focus among Black Panthers of having sex with white women. Where do you get that from?
You also did not respond to the other list of Black male activists who, to my knowledge, did not marry white women. Again, do you think JL Chestnut or Robert F. Williams got involved to meet white women?
Walter White was literally "white". He had blond hair and blue eyes. Would you criticize his Black wife for marrying a white looking man? If not, why not? I am interested in reading your response on this.
Neither you nor I have the ability to look into someone elses heart or marriage and judge why things go right or wrong. Again, Walter White put his life and wellbeing on the line to bring about a better world for Black people. I am incredibly disinclined to interrogate a dead man's romantic life.
As far as Belafonte, I simply don't see how you can criticize him for who he married. That is a very private decision that is really only up to the people involved. Belafonte did more and took more risks for Black people than you or I or just about anyone reading these words.
Evidently you see any Black man being intimate with a non-Black woman as a betrayal of all Black women. I don't see life that way. Black men and women do not own each other. People being who they are, most Black people that marry are going to marry Black, but for those who don't who are YOU to castigate them or call them betrayers? You don't own their life.
You wrote that the "bulk of these Black male activists were involved in the movement in order to ultimately have increased access to White women". That's an incredibly incorrect statement.
In 1950s'/1960s' America there were FAR easier ways for a Black man to get to know a White Woman than to get involved in the movement and take on the increased possibility of being beaten, arrested, humiliated, fired from his job, blasted by firehoses, bitten by dogs, shunned by friends or family, harassed by police or federal agents, incarcerated, or killed. Do you REALLY think that MOST Black men wanted white women that badly? I doubt it...
But again, the intimate decisions of Harry Belafonte or Julian Bond or Dorothy Dandridge or Charlayne Hunter-Gault do not belong to anyone else except them.
If you really believe that the personal is the political then you will always find people largely disappointing. I believe that the personal is the personal. You write that "activist's failure to practice what they preach undermines whatever work they're doing". Ok. Can you explain how Thurgood Marshall's body of work was undermined by marrying a non-Black woman?
Regarding your other arguments you did not read anywhere where I wrote that anyone should remain in a dangerous area. What I wrote was that Black people fleeing majority Black areas won't solve the problem.
Whites are still the majority in this country and have shown a general aversion to living next to large numbers of Blacks. So areas that Black people flee to tend to become majority Black again in a relatively short period of time. In addition as most white areas tend to be more expensive than many Blacks can afford, even if they wished to do so most Black people could not afford the increased housing cost.
So that means that for most people (those that can't afford to move or those that move in and watch their new neighborhood change complexion in 9-10 years)the only solution is to fix the problems in the Black areas.
Hello there, Shady Grady!
ReplyDeleteWe've reached an agree to disagree point in this exchange. We don't have the same values. For me, negative, dishonorable activities don't have to escalate to the level of constituting crimes before I take issue with them.
I believe in integrity. I believe in doing one's utmost to practice whatever one preaches. I don't believe in adultery & other betrayals of confidence & promises. I don't believe in Black folks' self-hating brown paper bag tests (which in many cases have escalated to a manila-folder test in the current era). I believe in reciprocity. I don't believe in "bait & switch" deceptions.
In short, Black women were encouraged to support Black male activists for the goal of advancing the Black collective (which includes Black women & Black children). NOT for the goal of supporting Black men so that Black men can then take these resources to non-Black women. NOT so that Black male activists can cheat on their wives & live out Playboy mansion-style fantasies. This was largely a "bait & switch" scam.
These particular scenarios do NOT advance Black women's interests. These particular scenarios do NOT reflect reciprocity. Time out for these sorts of one-sided arrangements.
Since you don't understand why (so far) almost every Black woman I've mentioned this to is shocked & displeased to learn that Dr. King cheated on Coretta (whose life was ALSO in danger) with White women, you won't "get" any of this. We don't share the same values. Therefore, it makes no sense to invest much more time discussing this particular topic with you.
I'm mentioning these things to encourage more Black women to do some critical thinking about our own interests. To encourage Black women to examine the motives of our mostly male leadership past & present.
I believe that actions speak much louder than words. I also believe that knowing the personal histories of these men that we've been encouraged to hero-worship will shock more Black women out of blindly assuming that these men were true friends to Black women.
I've seen that this often helps to encourage Black women to STOP blindly following modern Black male leaders & activists. I hope that this leads to more Black women demanding reciprocity (whatever that means to each Black woman) before giving support to anybody.
I'm not mentioning these things to debate with you or other Black men. As you've indicated, these men's choices are not significant or important to you, but it IS important to most Black women who discover what these men did.
"Mr. NAACP" Walter White did not call himself a White man while involved with the NAACP. He was lifted up as a shining example of a light-skinned Black person who went undercover & "passed" as White to advance Black folks' interests. You're being disingenuous to call him "White."
As far as the Panthers, I would refer people to "A Lonely Rage: The Autobiography of Bobby Seale." It's...eye-opening. In ways that Mr. Seale probably didn't anticipate when he wrote it.
Furthermore, I reject the notion that the examples I listed reflected cherry-picking. I suspect that their behavior was fairly representative of a large number of their fellow Black male activists from these periods.
I've read accounts of Black women activists from that era complaining about the Black male activists' chauvinism & White-woman chasing. Anybody who's sincerely interested can find source materials about this.
You know as well as I do that African-Americans have a long and sordid history of intra-Black colorism. This is the mass historical context in which these men chose non-Black women. Chasing White and other non-Black women is simply an extension of this colorism.
Back to running for our lives: Yes, Whites do have a "tipping point" in terms of Black percentages of an area before they will flee. This means that Blacks who want to survive and thrive should NOT run to places that are already near (or at) the "tipping point" in terms of Black residents.
You say that the only solution is to fix the problems in the Black areas. How do we do that? And are we to remain in place and thereby continue to risk our lives while we're waiting for the problems in these areas to be fixed? How much longer shall we wait?
There will always be those Black folks who choose to remain behind in the Rwanda-zones. That is their choice. I am saying that those Black folks who seriously want to survive & thrive must evacuate these Rwanda-zones now. Before their luck runs out. Or their children's luck runs out. Like Blair Holt's luck ran out. If I remember correctly, he was his parents' only child. {long sigh}
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Shady Grady,
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention: Don't interpret my choice not to respond to your last comment point by point as any sort of concession on the facts. I believe that all of the examples I gave were accurate. Also, I'm not going to spend my time reviewing & discussing the personal histories of each & every name you choose to mention. It's not a productive use of my time.
Again, it boils down to different values. You don't take exception to these men's behavior. I do. For a variety of reasons.
This goes beyond the cheating & womanizing that so many of these men did. No other ethnic group/race has such a large percentage of its male so-called leaders and celebrities chasing women from outside of their race. Given Black folks' history of self-hating colorism, this behavior pattern does not reflect random choices out of the clear blue sky.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Obviously we agree to disagree, Khadija. But FACTS are FACTS. Amy Ashwood Garvey and Amy Jacques Garvey were both brown/dark skinned women with West African phenotypes. A quick google search let alone a perusal of primary sources would show that. Look those names up.
ReplyDeleteWriting they were "light near white" women is simply not true. It's almost like writing that Jennifer Beals was a dark brown skinned woman.
Obviously you have serious issues with Black men interacting with white women. Your anger at that is quite clear. Ok. But at least you should recognize that for the majority of Black male leadership, including but not limited to Malcolm X, MLK, Robert F. Williams, Medgar Evers, JL Chestnut, etc... access to white women was not really the driving force behind their actions. Claiming that it was so is incredibly offensive to their memory and the sacrifice they made for ALL Black people. We both enjoy rights today because Black people stood up before us.
You have not read me defend adultery or Playboy mansion style fantasies. Where DO you get that stuff from? Good grief.
As far as Walter White, I did not write that he was Caucasian. I wrote that he was "white", which is to say that he was physically indistiguishable from a Caucasian man. The point is if you are going to criticize (wrongly as it turned out) Marcus Garvey for the shade of his wife's skin tone, are you also going to criticize Walter White's wife for marrying a blond haired, blue eyed man. You can't have it both ways.
Taking your logic to the extreme, any Black man that married a woman lighter than himself would be suffering from colorism.
We do have different values. I have the crazy idea that each individual's life belongs to them. Evidently you believe that each individual's life belongs to a Black female collective.
Good day.
Khadija, thanks for that response to your commenter. You were, as usual, on your A-Game!!
ReplyDeleteYou know as well as I do that African-Americans have a long and sordid history of intra-Black colorism. This is the mass historical context in which these men chose non-Black women. Chasing White and other non-Black women is simply an extension of this colorism.
Yes, and it's colorism or skin-shade racism when the majority of bm continue this PATTERN of selecting (if possible) the lightest AA women as mates or for their romantic interests. Since I talk about black-on-black skin shade racism a lot on my site, I can't tell you how many times enraged bm have written me privately to vehemently say, "Well, Halle, Vanessa Williams (the light one) and Beyonce are black woman too, so it doesn't matter if a lot of "brothas" PREFER lookalikes of those women; they're still black women." So, this statement that speaks specifically to that "preference" was pure GOLD. I wish more AA women would let these men who pretend ignorance about their peculiar little "preference" know that we're a LOT smarter than they think we are.
Everything has to be viewed in a context. Taken out of context, many things become meaningless or even insane. For ex. the only reason why so many AA women try to remain loyal to AA men and to this notion of saving the black community is due to the historical context. Other than that, most of these women would be considered straight up certifiable considering the lack of reciprocity they receive from bm and the bc.
I've come to the conclusion that many AA men have virtually no respect for the personhood or intellect of AA women. This is why some of my detractors think that if they could just shut me up, a big part of their problem would be solved. LOL! They can't believe that TONS of other AA women think exactly the way I do and some go way beyond me.
Back to running for our lives: Yes, Whites do have a "tipping point" in terms of Black percentages of an area before they will flee. This means that Blacks who want to survive and thrive should NOT run to places that are already near (or at) the "tipping point" in terms of Black residents.
Exactly! But this is what I mean. For ex. why would any of us try to get on a bus that's jampacked when we can get on another bus and get a seat? This wouldn't be that hard to do if the masses of AAs put their minds to it because AAs make up only 13% of the population and this is a big country. Why is it that some folks don't think that AA women have enough intellect to figure things like that out? LOL!
You say that the only solution is to fix the problems in the Black areas. How do we do that? And are we to remain in place and thereby continue to risk our lives while we're waiting for the problems in these areas to be fixed? How much longer shall we wait?
No one and I repeat NO ONE is coming to the aid of those bw and their children who are catching heck in those holes now. So why would anyone publicly be encouraging bw to stay there--unsupported, unprotected and virtually all alone with their children?
Before their luck runs out. Or their children's luck runs out. Like Blair Holt's luck ran out. If I remember correctly, he was his parents' only child. {long sigh}
Thank you! And practically every week, we hear about some woman/women or child's luck running out in these places. Many black folks in those places are magical thinkers and really believe that help is on the way. MOST of the ones I've talked with think that someone cares about them out there and that if they complain just a lil bit more, someone will defend or come to rescue them. SMH
Greetings, Evia!
ReplyDeleteSome of these exchanges reveal that there are some serious cognitive strongholds in existence as well!
Basically, they fall into 2 broad categories: confusion about things that are really quite simple (due to ideological brainwashing); and bad-faith.
The issue of sincerely confused thinking is why I love your crowded bus analogy! Like you said, "For ex., why would any of us try to get on a bus that's jampacked when we can get on another bus and get a seat? This wouldn't be that hard to do if the masses of AAs put their minds to it because AAs make up only 13% of the population and this is a big country." Evia, thank you for that blast of common sense!
Running for one's life really is NOT a complex maneuver. That is, it's not complex for Black folks who really want to live and are not brainwashed into what I call "trained cluelessness."
Earlier in this converation, I mentioned the example of Black welfare recipients figuring out how to migrate to states that pay higher public aid benefits.
This is just one example that shows that AAs can & do figure out how to accomplish what we want to accomplish. We also manage to figure out how to do the things that we feel entitled to do.
This is why the original post discussed the example of Pap Singleton & the Exodusters. If our ancestors could figure out how to run for their lives under the circumstances that Black folks lived under 130 years ago, then we really have NO legitimate excuses today.
Then there's the issue of bad faith arguments & positions. You noted this when you said, "I've come to the conclusion that many AA men have virtually no respect for the personhood or intellect of AA women...Why is it that some folks don't think that AA women have enough intellect to figure things like that out? LOL!"
When discussing the White-women-chasing Black male activists, I really shouldn't have had to discuss the historical context of AAs' long-standing history of colorism. I really shouldn't have had to say all of that out loud because WE ALL KNOW this context of intra-Black colorism/paper bag test!
It annoys me when folks want to play the nut role & act like they don't know where certain "individual preferences" originally came from. The reader talked about Stormfront & other neo-Nazi cliques. WTH? Black women are not supposed to notice that so many of these Black male activists lifted up & worshiped the SAME White woman that White male Stormfront followers lift up & worship?!! Many AA men presume to insult our intelligence like this because too many of us allow them to get over with that.
The reader noted that the candid description of these men's TRUE motives sounds like something from Stormfront. These motives sound like Stormfront because this thinking comes from the SAME mentality as Stormfront! One can even say that these type of self-hating, colorist Black men are the faithful & sincere students of the Stormfront type of White men.
Where else but from their White former slave masters did some Black men learn to worship White women?
Contrary to the way the reader tried to distort my objections as trying to "own" other people's personal lives, what I "own" is my right to decide who I'm going to support! What I "own" is my right to decide under what circumstances I will give my support to someone.
I, along with every other AA woman, have THE RIGHT to withhold my support from people who are doing things that are contrary to my interests as a Black woman. It's really that simple.
I have (at most) minimal interest in the activities of Black men who are of "No Value" or "Low Value" to AA women's collective interests. [By the way, I love how you've simplified things by using these terms! LOL!]
I only pay limited attention for the purpose of making sure that I don't accidentally support a person who does not support Black women. I'm not going to rally around somebody who is of LV or NV to Black women.
You're correct. Help is NOT on the way to "those BW & their children who are catching heck in those holes now." Meanwhile, the casualties are mounting. That's why I keep mentioning the names of some of our dead. We're so quick to forget about them.
________________________
*WARNING* {I feel a rant coming on...}
I believe in accountability. This includes accountability for what I choose to support. I believe that I will be held accountable for what I choose to support on the Day of Judgment.
Let me give a warning to the Muslims and the other believers:
STOP SUPPORTING PEOPLE THAT YOU KNOW ARE WICKED! Stop enabling them to continue their evil ways in your presence! You will be questioned about this on that Fateful Day!
This angle is another part of the problem with all of this. AAs have lost our ethical compass. There is NO real comprehension of right or wrong among us anymore. This is an angle to all of this that I really shouldn't have to discuss out loud, but I see that I do. This is how we've sunk so low that folks are actually rallying around a known pedophile like R. Kelly.
In terms of how this plays out in various movement situations:
Dr. King, Elijah Muhammad, and others didn't elicit our support as secular organizers. They came to us claiming to represent ethical, spiritual LEADERSHIP. Well, we should not be okay with having a wicked & corrupt person as our spiritual shepherd. I would be somewhat less appalled by their habitual cheating if they had not held themselves out as spiritual guides.
The point when those around them realized that they would not keep their pants zipped is when they should have been removed from positions of spiritual leadership. At a minimum, folks should have withdrawn from continuing to support that sort of person as a religious guide.
I'm not saying that their dishonorable behavior should have gotten them kicked out of their religious-based movements. But it should have disqualified them from continuing in leadership/command positions.
Furthermore, on a practical level, they both endangered their organizations by exposing themselves to potential blackmail. Their chosen behaviors created huge openings for our enemies to disrupt these movements. On a spiritual level, I'm saying that their repeated behavior demonstrated that they were not fit to guide anybody.
Let's break it down even further on a practical, secular level: If you are willing to repeatedly betray somebody that you claim to "love," what can I reasonably expect you to do with/to me? If you feel that the promises you make to your so-called loved one are "made to be broken," I KNOW you don't care about honoring any promises you make to me as a lowly follower!
Let's consider Walter White of the NAACP for a moment. This is somebody who cheated on and dumped his Black wife of 20+ years to marry a White SOUTH AFRICAN woman. How much value does anyone think he assigned to the Black members or followers of the NAACP? How obligated did he feel to keep any promises he made while operating in a leadership capacity?
If you're a lowly, poor, Black 1950s NAACP civil rights worker in the deep South, would you knowingly trust somebody like Walter White with making decisions & directives that could potentially send you to your death? Would you really feel like he values you? Or your life?
All resistance movements require a certain level of trust between their members; as well as between the members & the leadership. You can't have an atmosphere of trust with people who have demonstrated that they have zero integrity.
Another practical point is that it's very difficult for any organization to be effective when key members of its leadership are mostly focused on getting laid by as many followers & groupies as possible.
Any activist/leader/commander who is that foolish is NOT fit to lead/command. All an enemy has to do is send in an agent who is willing to have sex with such leaders. Would you trust such a person to make decisions that could mean the difference between life & death for you as a movement follower?
People who support such irresponsible leaders are courting personal destruction.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"Support your brother, whether he is oppressing or being oppressed."
ReplyDelete"We know how to help one who is being oppressed, but how do we help an oppressor?"
"By stopping him from his oppression."
-------------
This came to mind after reading your lastest response. Seems like so many would have us remember the first statement and forget the rest of the exchange.
Hello there, Forever Loyal!
ReplyDeleteThe statement you quoted from the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) clearly explains how believers are to respond to inappropriate, dishonorable, oppressive behavior. We are NOT supposed to enable people to continue doing wrong!
You see, AAs have grown so comfortable with corruption that we no longer feel that it is relevant in evaluating those who presume to lead & guide us! Most of us feel that it is not pertinent to deciding to entrust somebody with our support.
This belief will be the death of us as a people.
Shady Grady said:
"As far as other leaders who did marry or sleep with white women or white men-so what?"
"The personal is not political."
"With the exception of Chavis and Mfume and possible harassment, or Muhammad and underage predation, no crimes were committed."
"Neither you nor I have the ability to look into someone elses heart or marriage and judge why things to right or wrong."
In other words, people like the reader feel that character is IRRELEVANT. The fact that somebody is a liar & a cheat is irrelevant to entrusting them with leadership/command positions. Even when such positions involve making life & death decisions for members of a resistance movement! Dishonorable behavior only becomes relevant (perhaps) at the point when it constitutes criminal activity.
Also note the minimization of the wrongdoing: "look into some elses heart or marriage and judge why things go right or wrong." I hear this type of talk from the criminals I've represented. A lot. Instead of owning up to their active choices, most criminals I've talked to describe their actions as things that just happened. They use a lot of passive voice sentences to describe their choices.
When Walter White, Dr. King, Elijah Muhammad, etc. DECIDED & CHOSE to cheat on their wives, these were active choices by these men. Not things that mysteriously "went wrong" in their marriages.
When people get married, they typically agree & promise to STOP dating & sexing other people. [Again, this is common sense. We ALL KNOW this. Why do I have to say this out loud?]
If somebody wants to continue seeing, dating, and sexing other people, why bother getting married? [One common answer is because the person wants to reap the benefits of marriage without honoring any of its responsibilities. This is unprincipled & opportunistic behavior.]
If somebody who is already married has decided that they want to go back to dating & sleeping around,they should get a divorce first. This is the principled way of handling this. NOT sneaking around & betraying one's promise to be a faithful spouse.
I also noted the reader's attempts to draw a false equivalence between the behavior of the Black male activists and Black women activists from that era. AS IF there were equal numbers of married Black women activists who cheated on their Black husbands with White men. AS IF there were equal numbers of Black women activists who married non-Black men. Negro, puh-leeze.
I'm willing to engage those who sincerely dissent from whatever I'm saying. But I've learned [from Evia's wise counsel a while back in one of her comments] to more quickly disengage from people who: (1) don't share similar values; and (2) therefore cannot comprehend what I'm saying.
I've already described the practical problems associated with corrupt leadership (creating openings for blackmail, creating an atmosphere of distrust, etc.).
But the deeper problem is our casual, comfortable acceptance of corrupt leadership. That's how you have Black people actually voting to put a crack head like Marion Barry in what's supposed to be a responsible, leadership position. This will be the death of us.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
“We do have different values. I have the crazy idea that each individual's life belongs to them. Evidently you believe that each individual's life belongs to a Black female collective.” Shady Gravy
ReplyDelete___________________________________
Hmm… Interesting…
Do you ONLY believe in “individualism” when it comes to BM’s mating choices?
Because you seemed to imply that you did agree with collectivism to a degree in this statement:
“As far as Black people fleeing majority Black areas, I don't think that solves any problems. The most obvious constraint is that whites are incredibly sensitive to the number of Blacks in their neighborhood. Once that magic tipping point has been reached (usually somewhere between 5% and 8%) generally whites start moving out. If most Blacks are as dangerous and depraved as some suggest, why would whites want to live around any Blacks?” Shady Gravy
Furthermore, if you believe as you stated, that each individual’s life belongs to them, why the knee jerk reaction to Khadija’s suggestion to remove ONE’S SELF and family from dangerous residential areas?
I don’t get it?
This hypocritical bit about "not allowing the personal to become political" made me think how quickly that would change if these black "leaders" had all been known to be sexing homosexual men. LOL!! The personal would have sho nuff gotten political then!! LOL!
ReplyDeleteSo this "personal" stuff is highly selective. However, I realize that bw are not supposed to have the intellect to see through that.
SMH. Black women, in general, have allowed the actions of skin shade racist bm dating, sexing and marrying only non-bw and/or those who choose only the light-brite bw to become a sacred cow. Typical bm jump out from everywhere and use all sorts of stilted arguments to defend that sacred cow.
That's "personal" they say, as they stick out their colorism-contaminated hands to bw and to darker bw to get financial and other types of support and defense.
I don't know about anyone else, but I have rarely if ever heard any bm denounce this skin shade racism practiced by bm against bw. Typical bm I've heard just tend to shrug that off and say "that's just a brotha's preference," but expect for bw to go ballistic when any skin shade racist wm sticks it to any bm. That's a racist white's preference too.
And notice how these same bm rarely if ever point out to other bm that it's just a sista's preference if she "prefers" to love a man who's white. Don't hold your breath for that one!
Why is being victimized by a bm skin shade racist these days any less bad than being victimized by a white skin shade racist? It's actually even more painful to some bw or darker bw when bm discriminate against them.
Yet some bm keep talking about all black folks uniting to do this or that. Who the heck wants to unite with a whole bunch of skin shade racist bm? Wouldn't that be insane? That's like going from the old skin shade racism to the NEW skin shade racism.
I want to make it perfectly clear that I don't care who bm prefer or sex because I'm going to be with the Quality man of my choice. Period. But I DO care where bm draw their support (of all types) from and who they continue to bamboozle to support and defend them--BLACK WOMEN, including those darker bw. It is critical for AA women to keep their eye on the money/support/resources trail. Bm who get their push from bw and then take their resources and energy (of all types) to other communities are of NO VALUE or very low value to bw. Period.
Some bm try to say bw are just jealous, but bw shouldn't even react to that fluffy accusation at all because it diverts attention away from the money trail. That's the KEY to focus on. IF or when that's true, jealousy is just a feeling, but bw's money and resources equate to TANGIBLES that uplift bm.
I know that the accounting professionals reading this already know this, but from an accounting point of view, many types of non-financial support (helping to write a resume, writing a recommendation to help someone get a scholarship or job, making a phone call on a person's behalf, giving someone advice or emotional support, etc.) can be converted to money or ASSETS. Many bw don't realize that, but these assets are being siphoned off from bw. These are bw's ASSETS and these women can never get ahead if you're giving their assets to people who are of No Value (NV)or of Low Value (LV) to them because these people do NOT reciprocate.
This is just another way of saying: Stay away from anyone who does not offer you RECIPROCITY.
Hello there, Evia!
ReplyDeleteOh yes. This "the personal is not political" stuff is extremely hypocritical & selective. BM activists' adultery, etc. is even harder to ignore/justify when you look at the practical problems that this behavior created in these life & death movements.
You've been talking about the REAL rules of life on your blog lately. Here's the REAL rule about what motivates some Black men to rally around "the personal is not political" banner:
"The personal is not political AS LONG as the 'personal' activity is: (1) something that I'm doing; (2) something that I want to do; or (3) something that I can envision myself doing."
And the example you gave about how quickly these "personal is not political" BM would take it personally if a BM leader was having gay sex has at least one real-life precedent: Bayard Rustin.
From what I recall, other BM leaders drummed Bayard Rustin out of the SCLC because he was gay. Bayard Rustin's personal life became extremely political for these other BM leaders!
Some of these other (womanizing) BM leaders like Adam Clayton Powell did NOT allow Bayard Rustin's "individual life to belong to" Bayard Rustin. Other BM gave Bayard Rustin the bum's rush OUT of the mainstream civil rights movement! Even though Mr. Rustin had a lot to do with organizing Dr. King's March on Washington.
So much for BM activists sincerely believing that "the personal is not political."
Your other point about following the resource trail is well-taken. As one wise sister noted, Black women are the ONLY resource that Black men control.
For the most part, BW have given support to BM without any sort of reciprocity. This is why AA women are currently in crisis. ALL of our assets are flying out to people (BM, trifling relatives) who are putting next to nothing back in.
If AA women want to live at all (not to mention live abundantly) we must stop doing this. We must only support people who support us. We must demand reciprocity.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I am glad you both have mentioned the point about how bw are not supposed to have the 'intelligence' to figure things out. Indeed i sense shock in many bm, that bw could all along seen these things for what they are but have for some reason or another held their peace. we convinced them that we didnt have the intellect because lets face it, many have been able to get their way with the most senseless of arguments. And since two bit logic has been more than enough to get over bw, notice how these days all bm have to offer is underdeveloped arguments which they expect us to, as before, fall for. they havent needed to have anything more.
ReplyDeletefor anything approaching three decades, there has been some serious 'dumbing down' of bw intellect in these matters, in order to keep them stuck with the plan and the 'contract'. Most of the ratchetting down of intellect has been self-done because we have been desperate to believe in the brothas, in the plan of action.
We have not been allowed to think because thinking means joining the dots and making the connection and judgments that would have blown this whole con game on bw sky high. So therefore bw colluding to not rock the boat, have brought down their thinking five notches because thats what believing in the current black plan requires.
On reason why i believe there has been positive responses to female blog activism is because it has finally freed bw to use their brains in ways they knew they should but have felt they cant. there is a general sense of lifting of the horrible burden of knowing 'the emperor has no clothes' but not being allowed to say it as the emperor does a jig on the dance floor!
bw are saying, 'You know i saw this all along but didnt feel i could admit it, say it etc etc even to myself. Its such a great relief for many many bw to know they dont have to switch their brains off anymore!
Hello there, Halima!
ReplyDeleteBlack women have known many things all along. We just haven't voiced these things out loud because of the often self-imposed code of silence about Black men's many, many failures. Halima, let me take this opportunity to thank you and other pioneers like Evia for speaking the truth out loud, and taking the heat for so long. THANK YOU.
BM failed to protect & provide for us in the beginning of our sojourn in this country. That's how we got here in the first place. We were kidnapped here as a result of various African BM's military & political failures. Over the centuries, BW have cooperated with building a whole set of cultural norms to soothe BM's wounded egos while accomodating their many failures. We did this out of love.
In the course of doing this for centuries, we have forgotten our natural roles as women. We have forgotten that a man's only real value to a woman is as a protector & provider for her & their children.
Every other culture on this planet understands that a man who is not a protector & a provider is of NO VALUE.
Instead of understanding and seeking alignment with this human norm, we often find ourselves attempting to perform men's functions. Instead of protecting & providing for us & our children, so many BM look to BW to protect & provide for them! In all sorts of ways (for their protest march needs when they get hit in the head by a White cop, financially, etc.).
AA women have spoiled & babied AA men to the point that they expect us to CONTINUE to support them while they protect & provide for women from other races! And they expect us to do this for them while OUR collective needs are unmet! This is incredible. But much of this is our fault as women. This is the end result of our inappropriate coddling of AA men. It's the result of us grading AA men on a curve.
As Evia has pointed out, there is NO human society (past or present) in which women were expected to raise boys to manhood alone. There is no such society because this does not work. This leads to the destruction of any group that attempts to function like this. Period.
There is no functioning society in which women protect & provide for men. This also leads to total destruction.
Those BW who want to survive & thrive must reorient themselves into natural feminine behavior & expectations. You, Evia & others have laid it out. It's really quite simple:
1-In a patriarchal world, the most important factor that decides a woman's destiny (along with that of her future children) is the man she selects as a spouse.
2-When a woman chooses an inferior man, she & her children will live an inferior life. For generations.
3-When a woman chooses a quality man, she & her children will live a quality life. For generations.
4-Men who are unable or unwilling to be protectors & providers are of NO & LOW value in general.
5-Men who are unable or unwilling to be protectors & providers for BW are of NO & LOW value to BW.
The sooner BW align their choices with the above-stated reality, the better their lives will be. Trying to buck reality is literally killing Black women & their children.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
One reason why I believe there has been positive responses to female blog activism is because it has finally freed bw to use their brains in ways they knew they should but have felt they cant. there is a general sense of lifting of the horrible burden of knowing 'the emperor has no clothes' but not being allowed to say it as the emperor does a jig on the dance floor! -Halima
ReplyDelete______________________________________________________
P&B Halima,
AMEN SISTA!
I don't won't to go too far off topic, but I want to let Khadija's silent readers know that Khadija has been the only Muslim woman in my life thus far, that has supported my educational, and economic goals. When ever I shared my dream to join the Police department or the general law enforcement community in ANY capacity with other BW/ BAM's all that was echoed back to me was the same BS "shady gravy" is trying to run on us NOW.
Khadija has done a great job illustrating the consquences in terms of sharing the examples of "violence against women and children" she has dealt with in the court room--but there is also a type of slimy "emotional" violence as well.
I had completely given up on my dreams, and had settled for fighting the battle through home schooling, and my daughter until I met Khadija. Talking to her offline, and through e-mails helped me more than all the years of professional therapy I'd gone through. I personally appreciate her blunt, and tell it like it is style versus going all through woods, and mountain approach. Tough love is still love. Like Shady Grady, when I first really "listened" to her message I was in a state of shock, and at a loss for words. I thought the woman was crazy! lol wink
In the course of doing this for centuries, we have forgotten our natural roles as women. We have forgotten that a man's only real value to a woman is as a protector & provider for her & their children.-Khadija
P&B Khadija,
You know this statement is so profound... My husband the entire time we have been married (7 years) had been trying to support my educational goals, and my economic goals but outsiders caused so much agitation, and confusion in MY mind. This is another reason I'm glad I heard your message with out other people interfering in the process. I was so confused... I couldn't figure out how to maneuver around the competing discourses for Muslim women. As a result of my confusion than my husband became confused, concerned, and to a degree frightened. As a result of listening to, and following other confused folks, I ended up misunderstanding my husband intentions for completing my education, and becoming self reliant. Because BM (American) have a history of promoting those goals so that they can abdicate their personal responsibilities I became even more confused. My husband NEVER planned on using any of my income to maintain our household, he told me he wanted to make sure that in the event of his death we would be okay with out him. When I went back to work no one believed that I was "allowed" to keep ALL of my money so the grinding on "our" ears intensified. As an immigrant to the US he like many other immigrants have been shocked at the treatment of black women, and children. We have insurance, and some savings but he wants us to be as strong or stronger than him.
And thats the point I wanted to make: not only is the contract null and void becuase many BM have abdicated their personal obligations its also null and void becuase the manner in which they are functioning does not strengthen black women and children. If men like Shady Gravy were truly sincere they would make choices, and decisions that strengthen black women and children. Asking some one to remain in an unsafe residential area--I don't care if the people are white, yellow, blue or pink, is asking some one to kill themselves.
To me sisters, its more than about having a protector and provider. Its also about having some one who makes deliberate decisions ( and hopefully in your case no one is going to sabotage him) that empowers you on a consistent basis. IMO
PB
Hello there, Sister Seeking/Miriam!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your kind words. You don't realize it, but I've learned a lot from talking to YOU. LOL!
With the blog, I'm just trying to "pass it forward." I'm amazed & thankful for the insights that have come my way from reading essays by cyber-activists like Halima, Evia, Focused Purpose & Rev. Lisa. The ideas that they have shared are changing lives for the better. I know that these ideas have encouraged me to alter course in my life.
In the end, whatever is of value is from God. Only the mistakes are mine.
About Shady Grady:
I don't think that he's directly or deliberately encouraging people to remain in Rwanda-zones. I believe that he's sincerely repeating the many learned helplessness concepts that AAs have taken to heart. Modern AAs ALWAYS have thousands of "reasons" why we "can't" do [fill in the blank action] to improve our lives.
This is an example of what I was talking about in the post The Inner Sanctuary, Part 3: Decide to Beat the Curve. I said, "If we are honest, we must admit that much of our 'common wisdom' reflects learned helplessness."
AAs have the mental habit of coming up with lots of "reasons" why a better life is impossible. We're very creative & thorough in noting all the "barriers" to a better life. We do this instead of thinking of HOW we can make it possible!
The only part of the discourse where I felt Shady Grady was being dishonest was the part about BM activists cheating on their wives & chasing light, bright, & White women.
But even that reaction from him & other AA men like him is understandable: If you've been getting over for DECADES at the expense of gullible and/or silent AA women, why would you ever dismantle your ability to continue getting over?
Only an EXTREMELY principled person is going to willingly give up an unfair advantage. Principled people are quite rare.
This is what AA women need to understand: Most AA men DO NOT have a problem with the current status quo! They like it like this! They don't care anything about the so-called Black family. They just want to keep you available to be exploited.
Look at it from their perspective. There's a surplus, unmarried, and often desperate population of Black women. This means that there's a pool of emotionally needy women available for "booty call" exploitation.
With the gross numerical imbalance, this means that AA men have their pick of AA women ONLY as long as we restrict ourselves to Black men. If more AA women begin to marry out, then AA men LOSE their numerical advantage in the dating/mating pool. They lose their exploitable surplus "booty call" population.
We've been restricting ourselves to BM out of a misguided, and NOT reciprocated sense of loyalty to them. If we start to think about how many of them have betrayed & exploited us, we might not feel so loyal to them anymore. We might start looking out for our own interests. Instead of continuing to make AA men's interests our priority.
Furthermore, AA men have conned us into supporting them even when they take our support & use it to support women from other races!
Many AA men want to keep this pool of unlimited, unconditional, unreciprocated support available to them. That's why it bothers them for us to take note of the long history of previous betrayals. If BW start paying attention, we might STOP giving unreciprocated support to BM!
Remember OJ Simpson? Remember how most AA women wailed in support of him during his criminal trial? Well, we all know what OJ did after he slid out of that tight corner (with the help of some BW jurors, if I recall). He went right back to chasing & spending his money on his beloved White women. We weren't supposed to notice that. The same way it's taboo to notice Harry Belafonte, etc.
[*Amusing side note: I find it interesting that, as deranged as he is, even Michael Jackson had the common sense to flee the US after he got out of his last tight spot involving underage boys. I guess OJ just couldn't believe that his White folks had really turned against him. I guess he didn't understand that, unlike Black folks, Whites have LONG memories. Oh well...]
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Another thought about AAs' mass learned helplessness & tendency to focus on all the "barriers" to a better life:
ReplyDeleteI've been re-reading some of Rev. Lisa's essays, including "The Gold Digger and the Grave Digger" from 8/15/08. This quote from her leaped out at me:
"The African slave was conditioned to accept that entrapment was normalcy."
[!!!!]
Well, isn't that what we're doing when we focus on all the "reasons" why we "can't" do [fill in the blank]? Wow.....
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
AAs have the mental habit of coming up with lots of "reasons" why a better life is impossible. We're very creative & thorough in noting all the "barriers" to a better life. We do this instead of thinking of HOW we can make it possible!
ReplyDeleteSO true! This is seen over and over across the spectrum of AA life.
If an AA person comes up with a great idea and presents it to AAs, as you said, you can bet money that they will USUALLY find all kinds of things wrong with it, or point out why it won't work, and shoot it down or at least not support it. BUT if the person takes the idea to non-blacks like Koreans or whites and they support it or invest in it, that AA will be criticized up one street and down another for NOT keeping it among AAs. LOL!! I heard that's what happened with the black owned FUBU clothing company.
Hello there, Evia!
ReplyDeleteYes. We really MUST renew our minds. From the inside out. Right now. AAs can't afford to continue with our current mental habits. It's a matter of life & death.
_________________________
To everyone:
Keep in mind that I'm NOT saying any of this as some sort of guru. I'm dealing with many of the same problems as anybody else. Just consider some of the work & personal history stories I've shared.
I have some stale mental habits that I need to discard & replace with better ones. That's why I'm starting a meditation CD program. It's called Holosync. It's sold by the Centerpointe Research Institute. www.centerpointe.com
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Sister Seeking, you really laid it out there. I agree with everything you said 100%.
ReplyDeleteA lot of Khadija's posts(and your comments too, Sister Seeking) has helped me iron out the wrinkles in my thinking.
For the last year, I was literally in a state of "I know A LOT is wrong in the AA community" and with my family but I had no idea just how to go about separating myself from it all.
For example, it was an everyday struggle for me to deal with my family because they were doing so many things that felt wrong to me, but because I was the only one in my family able to "overcome" my parent's neglect, I carried around so much guilt. And I had made my siblings a promise as a small child that I would always look after them -but then we got separated by the state. My behavior problems kept me away from them for a few years and even though I fought for (and won) visitation rights, when my mother got them back from the state she refused to allow me to visit with them. The next time I saw them, I was literally the enemy.
(See, as a small child, I took care of my siblings while my mother ran the streets and eventually they started calling my mother. My mother has always blamed me for calling the police and "turning" her children against her. Not allowing me to visit with them any longer was her way of "sticking" it to me.)
From then on, no matter what I attempted to do, I could not repair the damage done to my family. And to make things even worse, I continued to be blessed. I continued to strive for better and continued to navigate my life. I continued to create an atmosphere of peace and love in my home, and keep outsiders at bay....even my siblings.
(One year, one of my sisters came to live with me down South, and I was forced to put her and her daughter out. She came to my house and had NO respect for me or my children -but she got along real well with my husband. She called her daughter all kinds of names, talked negatively about me on the phone with her friends. And the bad thing was, she did all of this in front of my oldest daughter. When I saw loving her and talking to her was not going to work, I had to ask her to leave.)
That is what I mean, I tried to keep them together but not at the expense of my children -or my household.
Then after seven years of not speaking with my mother, we started talking. At first, we covered a lot of ground but eventually I discovered NOTHING had changed with her. Was I surprised? Yes! Because I thought that her drug and alcohol addiction made her behave and act the way she did towards her children. But she still blames me for much of what took place in our past, and considers me selfish for wanting nothing to do with her any longer.
Then when Khadija said that she has NOTHING to do with the women who are involved sexual predators, I found strength within strength. Everything added up. All kinds of weight was removed from me. With a statement like that, I didn't need much more.
As far as the black "community", some of her comments articulated much of what I was seeing and hearing about concerning AA men and AA women. Everything was lopsided in the black man's favor. I honestly know plenty of decent honorable educated black women receiving the short end of the stick. Chasing after lazy black men all day. In fact, I know far too many.
One of the only reasons I still believed in the black community is because of my relationship with my husband. I knew if he could treat me with such respect, and be as devoted to his family as he is, many other men were capable of following in his footsteps. Plain & Simple.
Even some of her comments in the post about Feeling Flawless spoke volumes to me. As you said, Sister Seeking, "helped me more than all the years of therapy." Especially the comment about how black woman's interior do NOT match their exterior. Whoa! I've known this about myself for years.
Even when I was at my healthiest, I adopted behaviors to keep men from being physically attracted to me. But now I see that was allowing every man who ever molested me to win... and I can't have that any longer. Feeling more comfortable overweight and not acknowledging my beauty is NOT living up to me expectations of myself.
Sister Seeking, what you said about your husband I can completely relate to. Me and my husband had the same kind of conversation about five years back. He knows and understands his role as a father and husband. In knowing his role, for a while I was uncertain of whether my daughters would be able to meet someone of his caliber. Seriously! My money has always been my money. I am not suppose to contribute to our bills.
I remember for a long time, I was uncomfortable with telling other AA women that I was a stay-at-home mother. Why? Because my husband is an AA male. At one point, I just stopped telling other women because somehow they were under the assumption that I was lazy. But my husband urged me to continue to tell the truth because "they need to know."
Even now, I fight back the tendency (when an AA woman asks me me what do I do) to list all of the things I do during the day with my youngest son like take him to the park, library, read to him, cook for him, paint with him, take him to the museum, etc to try and prove to them that I am NOT lazy. But I fight back that tendacy and just admit that my husband works and I stay at home with my son during the day. And I hate to say it but it is NOT okay for a 6 year old child to come home to an empty house. So, I also have to be home when my two oldest girls arrive home from school.
Damn Khadija,
ReplyDeleteYou're a baaad girl. I thought Evia was on point, but wow you covered all points and then some.
I only wish each and every little black girl had mandatory classes on Black Feminism prior to graduating from school. I say Black Feminism because its clear that the bw's struggle throughout history is barely touched on in school. Hell black history period is barely touched on except for the MLK/Rosa Parks education that's repeated year after year.
There are so many intricate complexities to black women for little black girls to go thru life not knowing a lot of it is simply tragic.
God Bless!
Black women have known many things all along. We just haven't voiced these things out loud because of the often self-imposed code of silence about Black men's many, many failures. Halima, let me take this opportunity to thank you and other pioneers like Evia for speaking the truth out loud, and taking the heat for so long. THANK YOU.
ReplyDeleteYou're so kind Khadija.
I don't won't to go too far off topic, but I want to let Khadija's silent readers know that Khadija has been the only Muslim woman in my life thus far, that has supported my educational, and economic goals. When ever I shared my dream to join the Police department or the general law enforcement community in ANY capacity with other BW/ BAM's all that was echoed back to me was the same BS "shady gravy" is trying to run on us NOW.
i agree with you Sister Seeking, bw are desperately in need of 'big sisters'; fellow bw who put our needs, our aspirations first and foremost, who guide us towards life fulfillment. what we have these days are 'Big Sacrificers' who are only too willing to offer us up as cannon fodder/collateral damage to the 'grand plan' for the race.
Hello there everyone! {waves}
ReplyDeleteI have been reading along and this conversation is absolutely fascinating!
Thanks so much to Khadija for initiating and facilitating this exciting exchange of perspectives!!
I was reading the comments by Shady Grady and I read comments by uninformed (and purposefully ignorant) black men who come to my think tank to try to add a tablespoon of contamination and a cup of deception to the pot.
I have also received email from black men who are repeating their scripts... just as black women have a VERY HARD time dismantling the scripts they have been handed...there are black men who have to go through a process to dismantle THEIR scripts too.
We need to separate the black men who approach these settings who are being purposefully ignorant from those who are repeating their scripts WITHOUT fully understanding that their script MUST CHANGE.
There are men I have exchanged email notes with for days who had never been CONFRONTED about their script. They felt it was ACCEPTABLE.
When confronted, some men will be angry and resentful. I have encountered black women who were angry and resentful when the examination revealed that THEIR mentality had to change.
We can not assume that EVERY angry and resentful retort reveals that we are dealing with a person who can not become enlightened.
At the same time, I am not wasting time in my comment section at my blog giving the spotlight to fools.
I want to be sure that in our commitment to change OUR OWN scripts that we do not forget HOW to insist that black men change their scripts - in a way that produces results.
We have to issue tangible consequences for their refusal to change their scripts.
It's ONE thing to issue an imperative...it's another to back it up with consequences.
We now need to begin to move into a space mentally where we are ready to start issuing consequences...unapologetically.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
________________________________
@ Destouet
You don't have to feel guilty for being a full-time mother.
I have no qualms letting women know: "I refuse to create an existence for myself that emulates the field slave." They get quiet.
I don't have any memory of my mother cleaning the house or doing dishes....my mother had one full-time domestic servant and one-full-time chef.
I was never taught that black women had to work and work from sun up to sun down...and THEN SOME.
No way!
I was taught that the only women who have that life are those who ACCEPTED that life...
Childhood may have produced some set backs and detours for some...but in adulthood...we CAN control the life we construct. The life we have as adults is the life we have CHOSEN for ourselves.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Greetings, Selena!
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind words. I'm just repeating what I've heard the pioneers like Halima, Evia, and Sara say. With the addition of the Black history facts I learned during my 20+ years of being in a Black Nationalist trance. LOL!
_________________________
Halima,
You said "Big Sacrificers." {chuckling} This is horrible, hilarious, and sadly, all too true. Many of us are complicit in our individual & collective oppression.
One angle I keep coming back to is that all of these BM monsters (such as the Dunbar Village atrocity defendants, Genarlow Wilson, etc.) were raised by Black women!
Remember that Afghan, Indian, and Pakistani women raised the men in their societies who throw acid in women's & schoolgirl's faces. These particular monsters didn't just land from the moon into these societies.
And so it is with OUR internal monsters. WE breed & raise the BM among us who hate, beat, rape, torture, and kill BW. WE also breed & raise the much larger numbers of BM who are indifferent to these atrocities.
WE also raise the color-struck BM who are self-hating & chase light, bright, & non-Black women as if it was their life mission.
WE also raise the womanizing Black men who feel that it's appropriate to live a pimp's life of juggling numbers of women.
As women, we need to renew our own minds. We also need to start enforcing sanctions against the serial baby mamas who generate the bulk of our internal monsters. We also need to start enforcing sanctions against the Black women who (in any way) enable BM to engage in exploitative behavior.
We have much more control over our individual & collective fates than we realize. We need to start assuming & exercising this responsibility.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Lisa!
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned folks trying to "add a tablespoon of contamination and a cup of deception to the pot." {gales of laughter} This is too true!
You're also correct that we ALL have to be willing to examine our various scripts. You see, I assumed that readers would take a glance at the masthead over this blog & realize that I'm serious about all of this. Well, it turns out that I was mistaken in this particular "script."
I've recently realized that some people are reading my introspection (and other) essays as a form of recreation. This is fine. However, people need to understand that I CANNOT guarantee that any conversation will remain within the bounds of anybody's comfort zone. Including my own. I will do my best to be considerate and compassionate; but I can't safeguard comfort zones. The issues that we're discussing are life & death.
I'm going to start giving this warning in my future introspection essays.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Lisa said:
ReplyDelete"We now need to begin to move into a space mentally where we are ready to start issuing consequences...unapologetically."
Now this is where I have problems. I am not certain if I am in the mental state to start calling people out on their actions because I am still being called out on my short-comings. Not just by the things that are being discussed in these blogs, but also my own conscience has been demanding me to step my game up.
And then almost everything I have learned via these blogs about "free-will" seems to go against everything I use to believe...about how some people just can not do better. See, I was raised listening to psychologists therapists, and couselors make excuses for boys and girls -as far as why many of the children I was once housed with would never amount to anything in the future when they became adults.
WE breed & raise the BM among us who hate, beat, rape, torture, and kill BW. WE also breed & raise the much larger numbers of BM who are indifferent to these atrocities.
ReplyDeleteWE also raise the color-struck BM who are self-hating & chase light, bright, & non-Black women as if it was their life mission.
WE also raise the womanizing Black men who feel that it's appropriate to live a pimp's life of juggling numbers of women.
Khadija, this is where we hit the wall. I think I would ask: do typical bw **deliberately** raise black male monsters? I don't think I'm raising black male monsters, but if I'm raising decent male children, it has a lot to do with my husband, and our families, friends, community of support, etc. My sons are doing very well and people give me and their dad the credit for raising our sons well, but I KNOW that I, as a woman ALONE, could NOT do a good job at raising my male children ALONE. I have a LOT of help and it's still hard sometimes.
People **think** I'm strong, but actually I have a LOT of support and help. I've always had support and help from family and friends. I have people watching my back. I'm protected. My boys have always had guidance from decent, upright MEN. They observe MEN doing what MEN are supposed to do.
Also, my sons and I are protected. I have never felt alone, unprotected, unloved since the day I got married. My sons know they have a lot of caring adults around them.
Whatever I write online, I have a bunch of people in our families who support me. I can comfortably do what I do because I KNOW I have support. I wonder sometimes about how bw who are all ALONE, make it without any support to speak of.
I'm just thinking out loud here. How can we expect the masses of AA women--many of whom--have been violated by sexism, racism, colorism, etc. to summon the strength and awareness to correct this all ALONE? If black females have such a weighty responsibility, then what purpose does the AA male serve? I repeat: what is the AA's male's responsibility?
AA women have 'free will,' but don't AA males also have the same?
And why is it that only among AAs is the female supposed to take on the lion's share of "saving" the community (if they even could) whereas among other groups the male would play at least an equal if not greater role than the female.
Are AA women a different type of women? Stronger than other women? Smarter? More capable?
I think we have to be careful about continuing to place the bulk of this burden on AA females because isn't this why some AA women may feel now they can go it alone and are failing. It seems that the AA male doesn't have a role. And if he doesn't have a role, then he's superfluous, not necessary, not important, etc. Do AA males really want to be in that position? I dunno.
My husband KNOWS that he's important and necessary because he has a role. If he doesn't perform his role, he knows that no one else will. If you take a person's role away from them and give it to someone else, then who is that person? Are they needed anymore? Should they even try to improve themselves? Should they stick around?
Hello there, Evia!
ReplyDeleteLet me clarify:
You never really know what you would do until placed in a situation, but here are my thoughts:
This unwed mother situation is mostly self-created by AA women's life choices. We CHOOSE the wrong men to have sex with; and we choose the wrong men to have children by. We also choose to carry these OOW pregnancies to term.
Again, I don't know for sure, but I suspect that if I had gotten pregnant & decided to have a child out of wedlock, I would search HIGH & LOW for at least one appropriate male figure to be HEAVILY involved in my child's life. I suspect that I would not rest until I found at least 1 appropriate man who was willing to play this part in my baby's life.
I would recognize that I had screwed up and created a decisively inferior situation for my baby. I would recognize that it was on me to do whatever I had to do to mitigate these circumstances. That gets back to scouring the planet for a suitable man to help raise (or at minimum to mentor while I kept looking for a man to help raise) my child.
Can we honestly say that most AA single mothers are searching this hard for appropriate men to help with raising their children? Or are most BW single parents complacently stumbling along? I submit to you that most of the AA single mothers I see are NOT making the utmost effort to find a man to be heavily involved in their children's lives.
I'm not talking about what's fair or right or correct. I'm talking about what drastic steps need to be taken in the unwed mother scenario to have even a fair chance of raising a decent child. However, the reality is that these women dug a deep hole for themselves and their babies. It takes extraordinary efforts to climb back out of this self-created pit.
I'm also not letting the AA male sperm donors off the hook. I'm recognizing that a sperm donor CANNOT be converted into an appropriate father figure. This fact doesn't remove the necessity of a mother finding an appropriate father figure for her child. That is, if she wants to maximize her chances of raising productive human beings instead of losers, creeps & monsters.
Now, I believe that part of the problem is that AA women have been hoodwinked into thinking that we can adequately raise children by ourselves. Many AA women genuinely don't know any better. However . . . we see this belief being proven wrong every single day. With catastrophic results.
There are plenty of AA single mothers who know better, and yet STILL aren't making it their #1 priority to find an appropriate father figure (or at minimum a man who will mentor) for their children.
We need to get the word out that finding an appropriate man to be HEAVILY involved in one's child's life is AS important as putting food on their plates.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
We need to get the word out that finding an appropriate man to be HEAVILY involved in one's child's life is AS important as putting food on their plates.
ReplyDeleteI agree but I prefer to advocate that the appropriate man be the QUALITY loving, lovable, suitable, and compatible man that she was impregnated by in the first place who is her HUSBAND. This is why I say that AA women had better mate outside of the AA group or die out.
However, there can be several solutions simultaneously. I guess that those bw who are the nothing-but-a-bm type will just have to find those appropriate men to step in for their sperm donors, whereas other bw need to go outside the AA group. This is just SO obvious.
I simply don't understand why every single AA person who cares about this situation isn't screaming at AA men and women to choose only Quality mates and GET MARRIED. That should become the EXPECTATION from the entire so-called bc., and there should be consequences if they're not headed in that direction. At the same time, there should be mass teachings in these AA enclaves about how to make marriages work.
However, we all know that MOST AA men are not going to cosign this because this means much less easy booty call. So every AA woman should be screaming that AA women only date Quality marriage-minded AA men OR ELSE these women should be PRESSURED to date and marry Quality non-AA men. Period. But are the women going to do this? Not likely because this would AA men mad. SMH
We can talk about this situation FOREVER, but there are only a few immediate and feasible solutions to this growing pandemic.
The minister at my church literally begs bm there to step in as surrogate fathers for the numerous oow boys at the church. Barely any man steps forward. I remember one woman was mouthing off about how none of the men at the church (and there aren't many suitable ones there anyway) want to help her with her son--to take him fishing or to baseball practice. She was making it sound like these men **owed** it to her son to take time out of their weekend to do that. LOL! Really, her attitude annoyed me because it's not the fault of those men that her sperm donor has abandoned her.
Maybe those "appropriate" men could be paid to this? I remember reading an article in the local newspaper about 8 years ago about a program that was paying men to become these surrogate fathers.
Hello there, Evia!
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree that marriage to a quality, loving & lovable man is the BEST solution to this problem. And it is BEST to only be impregnated by a quality, loving & lovable man in the first place. However, for many AA single mothers there are several other factors at play:
1-Many AA women have already messed up & had children by sperm donors. Sperm donors who cannot be converted into appropriate father figures.
2-Many AA women have serially messed up; and are serial baby-mamas. With each additional bastard child (especially by a different sperm donor), the odds of a quality man selecting that particular woman drastically decrease. How many quality men sign on to marry a serial baby mama with 2+ kids by 2+ other different men? Not many.
3-In their current state, many AA single mothers are simply not suitable to attract a quality man's romantic attention. I'm thinking of the checklist of "hoochie" outer appearance that Rev. Lisa mentioned in a comment to her recent post "Banishing the 'Cuteness'? No, Banishing the Hoochie!"
4-Bottom line: Quality men are simply not going to want many of these single AA mothers as wives in their current state. Now, there are things that these women can do to increase their odds of ultimately landing a quality man. However, their children STILL need an appropriate father figure in the interim (while these women get themselves together).
5-If I had been caught up in this scenario: If I couldn't find an appropriate man within the context of my personal life to take on this responsibility, I would start scouring whatever programs I could find: Boy Scouts, etc.
Again, I would recognize that this was a mess of my own making. And that nobody else cares about my baby as much as I do (including the sperm donor). That means that it's on me to mitigate the self-created disaster. Ultimately, if I had to pay somebody, I would.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"Back to running for our lives: Yes, Whites do have a "tipping point" in terms of Black percentages of an area before they will flee. This means that Blacks who want to survive and thrive should NOT run to places that are already near (or at) the "tipping point" in terms of Black residents."
ReplyDeleteEnding up in a white neigborhood that is at or near the "tipping point" in terms of black residents is ALWAYS a problem when you live in or near cities with large black populations (Chicago, Baltimore, Washington, DC, etc., are examples).
Black people who want to get away from poor black people and/or DBR black people (this unfortunately includes some middle income blacks) might consider moving to cities that have low black populations (so the "tipping point" effect is not a problem): cities like San Diego, California; Phoenix, Arizona; Seattle, Washington; Portland, Oregon; Sante Fe, New Mexico, etc. Notice that these cities, all reputed to be fairly "progressive" cities, are located in the western or southwestern part of the United States.
Of course, living in a city with a very low black population has its own set of challenges but getting away from the crime epidemic (and VERY low quality of life in general) in black and/or mostly black areas has to be the overriding concern for blacks who care about their lives and the lives of their dependent children (if they have any).
Khadija, I see this post has been reinvigorated. Some observations.
ReplyDeleteKhadija noted:
Discussions of the movement men and their posing before the cameras.
My reply:
Wasn't it the case with the March on Washington that the movement men did not want the women of the movement to be on stage? Quite clear what was going on--they didn't want their time in the sun to be blocked by women, as though the women in the movement were pests, not so-called allies with them in the struggle. I'm rolling my eyes here.
It was quite clear, what they saw the purposes of the movement to be, for black women to work, get beaten, etc., but give the men their time to shine when all was said and done, since it was their movement, and black women were an afterthought.
You also noted:
Many AA women have already messed up & had children by sperm donors. Sperm donors who cannot be converted into appropriate father figures.
My reply:
And because they are sperm donors/baby daddies, a woman can be caught up in endless drama that can last for years, as she tries to work with him, or he manipulates her.
This time is taken by the sperm donor when she could be finding someone else. Yet, the threat of him is always hanging over her head, that he will start howling "my kid(s)" when she makes any attempt at finding someone new. If they are your kids, why aren't you married and taking care of them? See the article, Dads in the Hood, for a discussion of why.
Will he stick around? Will he want to see the child/ren? Will he give her some support? If he no longer wants to be with her, that is the end of that, she won't see him.
But what will be his price for giving her support and seeing the children? He might want more sex in return, if he even bothers with her at all, when he has no intention of staying around and being there for her or the child/ren.
I am gonna be a bit all over the place with this one but please bear with me!
ReplyDeletei agree that the root problem here is single motherhood or shall i rephrase that to, bw being singlehandedly responsible for the black family. Its like a trigger that sets of a whole chain of events far and wide which you can spend your whole life fire fighting, whereas going to the root and switching of the 'feed' would sort the situation out in a short space of time.
but single motherhood is the only 'logical' outcome for bw, were they are faced with partnering restrictions at the same time as a dwindling supply of these sanctioned males for reasons that range from incaceration to disinterest in marriage or disinterest in marrying bw.
this is the reality within which bw become single mothers. at the moment the pattern is being modelled and repeated down the line. it has at this stage become a 'culture' which these days hardly bears any mention. When something becomes a culture it needs no justification or explanation as to why you ended up in the situation. with a 'single motherhood culture' having and raising a child by self becomes a regular choice. At this stage it will take real earth digging work to change this 'culture' memeplex.
if there is a clear and direct link to a negative outcome then the people caught up in this habit might re-adjust but automatic adjustment rarely occurs without leadership and incentives unless the link is so direct between the activity and the negative outcome.
I see this in action here were i live with government trying all sorts of roundabout ways and using whatever pressures it can exert eg targetting alcohol sellers, pub closing times etc to head off the growing culture of young girls drinking themselves leggless and falling into gutters at night (its a growing problem over here).
The fact is it takes watchful, forward thinking and caring leadership to nip issues in any community in the bud. Now caring and forward thinking are words i would not use with black leadership particularly where bw are concerned. black leadership essentially lets us get on with it, only rasing a flag when there is white intrusion. the BC must be like a freak show which these (mis)leaders come around to watch and guffaw over SMH.
Progressive governments and leaders know that from time to time they need to steer their communtities in the right direction. Modern man has just too many choices, any of which could anahilate him if no one looks out ahead and stands a guardian. Sometimes only a little nudge is required (see how when governments want to 'control' population they pull susidies for child care ad suddenly couples are having 2 rather than 4)
Approaching 98% of our endeavours in the BC have been about supporting and reinforcing bm, maintaining their privileges over and access to bw's bodies and rescources (even if this means stockpilling a surplus of bw) and this focus has shaped our strategies, responses, priorities and the issuing of black rescources.
many bw are responding to the underlying sentiment they pick up from their community; that they are not valued, cherised or cared for and that they are simply there for others, by being lax with their own self-care and in their choices and resigned to substandard treatment and zero reciprocity.
A lot has and is being done to prepare bw for their subjugated role and often it is this that we fight; this indoctrination and this shaping of bw to sit comfortably in lack and pain.
Greetings, ELG!
ReplyDeleteYou've made an excellent point. I hadn't thought of that angle to running for our lives. Thank you!
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Hello there, Pioneer Valley Woman!
It seems to me that BW activists from that era had the choice of either: (1)working around the soft-focus sexism/exploitation of the integrationist BM; or (2)working around the hard-edged, vicious sexism/exploitation of the nationalist BM ("a BW's 'proper' position in the movement is the prone position"). From what I can tell, BW from that era didn't do anything to create another activist option for themselves.
As far as the sperm donors: I saw a lot of dysfunctional behavior patterns when I did a rotation defending sperm donors/baby daddies in child support courtrooms.
First, it seemed to me that many of the bitter, angry AA baby mamas spent most of their energy trying to cajole, beg, and manipulate the sperm donors into becoming real fathers. They did this instead of looking for a real man to participate in their children's lives.
This does not work. Here's what many of my AA sperm donor clients did with their "precious" child visitation that I had fought so hard to get for them: They drop their child off at the paternal grandmother's house. And then leave the child with the paternal grandmother for a few hours. They then pick the child up and return him to the baby mama. This is how many sperm donors use their visitation.
Bottom line: You can't MAKE somebody care about a child. Even if it's their own flesh & blood. You might be able to extract some loose change as child support from a sperm donor; but that's about it.
I also saw that there were some AA baby daddies that were mildly interested in their children. However, these men are quick to give up on their children. If the baby mama does anything at all that such a man perceives as creating an obstacle to seeing his child, he'll just give up & walk away. Quickly.
___________________________
Hello there, Halima!
Well, as always, you've laid it out! I really can't add much to your latest comment. It's all there. The only thing I would emphasize is that our male leadership is a large part of the problem. Our male leaders are usually among the AA men who are exploiting the "booty call" AA female surplus population. These AA male leaders are NOT going to encourage anything that might disturb that particular groove! They're too busy getting over.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello again! {waves}
ReplyDeleteHarriet Tubman said that many slaves REFUSED to run for freedom.
Refused!
They could not IMAGINE how to survive away from the captivity that they so closely identified with.
We read news reports from time to time about how the captive gradually began to identify with the captor.
Once that identification IS fostered internally. the person usually has to be RESCUED from the sitiuation and will not voluntarily leave.
This is where so many black women are operating from by CLINGING to all-black settings as their security. They minimize the damage that has occurred with "it's not THAT dangerous in this neighborhood" and "crime happens everywhere". This is what they tell themselves.
Or worse...a commenter in one discussion at this blog mentioned that it was CHEAPER to live in all-black neighborhoods.
Did the Jews in concentration camps decide that it was a BARGAIN for them to live there? What kind of warped mind even come to that conclusion? I am baffled!
I recently made a comment on my blog that referred to these all-black communities serving as silver platters for sexual predators and deviants AS CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
One women sent a note to me saying I was putting down the blacks who are not from the upper crust.
See, this is the problem. There are blacks who don't want someone from another socioeconomic class tier telling them what is staring them in the face that they are ignoring.
They want to turn it into "so you think you are better than the rest of us", in order to dismiss the warnings that they are being given.
The Nazi concentration camps were death camps...and most of these all-black neighborhoods in depressed and dangerous areas are also death camps but NO ONE wants to call it that. They don't want to admit how many souls are dead in those enviroments.
Those who were held in Nazi concentration camps were not saying "this is OURS!" and "this is where we BELONG!"
Unfortunately...this is the mentality that many of our people have about the concentration camps that they refuse to flee from.
{shaking my head}
Lisa
Khadija:
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that BW activists from that era had the choice of either: (1)working around the soft-focus sexism/exploitation of the integrationist BM; or (2)working around the hard-edged, vicious sexism/exploitation of the nationalist BM ("a BW's 'proper' position in the movement is the prone position"). From what I can tell, BW from that era didn't do anything to create another activist option for themselves.
My reply:
The good old "going along to getting along," because many felt they had no choice. The race issues seemed to be the most important, although they knew that something "wasn't right" on the gender front.
Moreover, their identity and progress was so intertwined with the black community (as defined and determined by black men) that they could not think of anything else.
Those who did think of the gender questions were quickly labeled traitors to the racial cause who raised distracting questions that stood in the way of the men becoming patriarchs in the way they always envisioned.
They just had to say the "feminist bogeywoman" word and black women just fell back and silent.
Yet, it seems that for some of the men, it was about them getting the respect of patriarchs but without the obligations to protect black women and children that should have come with the patriarchal authority.
Along these lines, I was thinking about a Supreme Court case, Stanley v. Illinois, that led in my mind to overall acceptance of the baby-mama and baby-daddy phenomenon. The law began to enable it on a large scale.
The two had been together (but not married and not living together) for as much as 20 years! They had older children by time the woman died and the younger kids were put into care. He then claimed he had rights to the children.
This would have been the late 1960s/early 1970s, when a single man did not have automatic rights to his child in Illinois, because Illinois law presumed that only married men had legitimate interests in their children.
The court overturned this and then the law examiners went to work on figuring out how the law should address single parents' rights.
Burger(?)'s dissent is quite telling--he served on the court until 1986. He argued for the prevailing view, held by the Illinois legislature, that only married men can legally be fathers.
Khadija, you don't know me and I don't know you. It's a HUGE logical leap to get from my questioning your assertion that the BULK of Black male activists were interested in greater access to white women to stating that I want to play a "nut role" or think that "character is irrelevant".
ReplyDeleteIt's difficult to respond when you continue to make up charges that I did not write.
Medgar Evers was an activist. Was his primary motivation white women? This is not a rhetorical question.
Can you explain how the Black people, Black women or the United States is worse off because Thurgood Marshall married a Asian-American woman?
Who would be better off if Marshall was prevented from being on the Supreme Court due to his interracial marriage? Again, not a rhetorical question.
PLEASE look it up for yourself but BOTH of Marcus Garvey's wives were brown skinned women of obvious African descent.
The majority of married Black men (activist or non-activist) are married to Black women. That was true in 1956 and it's true in 2008.
Sister Seeking, Evia, Lisa:
Since you have evidently already decided that I am ignorant, full of BS, hypocritical, malicious or only interested in getting over on Black women perhaps these are wasted words but I would like to respond nonetheless in the spirit of a courteous reasoned exchange of ideas, which from your insults appears less and less likely.
I do not care who marries whom. It doesn't matter to me if a Black (wo)man finds love with a Black (wo)man, a White (wo)man, or whoever. Those are intensely personal decisions that are NOBODY else's business. That's what I believe. Each person owns their own life-be they male, female, gay, straight, whatever. So I don't see any hypocrisy or double standards in that stance.
I have zero interest in "control" over Black women. If a BW or BM has a desire to marry or be intimate with a non-Black person I could not care less.
I can't speak for other people. I do not possess your claimed ability to look into people's hearts and make ridiculous generalizations about an entire gender. Doing so says more about the writer than it does about the gender. I would say (and have said) the same thing to Black men or White men who make outlandish generalizations about women. I have not made ANY generalizations about Black women. Why? Because each person should be judged on their own merits.
As far as moving away, show me where I wrote that people should stay in unsafe areas. What I wrote was that for the MAJORITY of Black people, moving to a white area is not going to be possible. But for those who can do so or want to do so-GO for it. Again I don't have a problem with people making informed decisions about where to live.
Please read what I wrote and either respond to THAT or ignore it but don't impute things to me which I didn't write. It's dishonest. To write that I WANT people to live in fear of their lives or safety is really beneath response.
I don't think that Black women OR Black men have any sort of monopoly on virtue OR bad behavior.
Criticizing anyone for who they love is barren logic. I don't think any political or social movement has the right to do that.
Good day.
@ ShadyGrady
ReplyDeleteYou said:
Sister Seeking, Evia, Lisa:
Since you have evidently already decided that I am ignorant, full of BS, hypocritical, malicious or only interested in getting over on Black women perhaps these are wasted words ..."
What I find ignorant NOW about you is that you clearly did not read my comment in its entirety and chose to bring your own assumptions into your interpretation of my comments.
And allow me to assist you since it IS CLEAR you require remedial instruction...
This is the PORTION OF my quote in which your name was mentioned:
I was reading the comments by Shady Grady and..."
That is a statement of fact and excerpt does not draw any description of you AT ALL.
The word "AND" is a continuation of thought.
If you have decided to PRESUME that everything in my remarks after the word "AND" is all about Grady...then perhaps you are as arrogant and ignorant as you are describing yourself.
In the future when mentioning WHAT I said...quote me ...or leave my name out of your retorts.
Hey Khadija!
ReplyDeleteIsn't it SOOO very interesting when some people come into this dialogue DELIBERATELY using a blocked profile while the rest of us have blogs and links to identify ourselves?
Ahhh...is it possible there is another Witness Protection Program entrant who is touring the black women's blogs?
And they are anonymous because....they are just SOOO deeply interested in supporting black women THAT they don't want anyone to know ANYTHING AT ALL about them...
That is just HOW COMMITTED they are showing themselves as allies...
I notice this in cyberland quite a bit...
That some will CLAIM their interests here are open and transperant but I just don't see that EXHIBITED at all when anonymity is the only way they choose to show up...
Hmmmmm.
That speaks volumes.
To All:
ReplyDeleteHere's today's teachable moment! It's an example of what Rev. Lisa calls "entitlement & intrusion."
I've already told Shady Grady that:
1-We had hit an "agree to disagree" point.
2-That I wasn't going to invest any more of my time in reviewing the personal histories of each & every name he chooses to mention (because it's not a productive use of my time).
3-That there was no sense in continuing to discuss these particular points with him because we don't share the same values; which means that he's not able to understand what the rest of us in this conversation seem to automatically "get."
Some of us went on to discuss:
4-The reasonable inferences to be drawn from Shady Grady's statements about BM leaders who cheated on their wives and chased non-Black women.(character doesn't matter, having a lying, adulterous leadership cadre doesn't matter,etc. ).
5-We discussed the hypocrisy & motives underlying most of these "the personal is not political" assertions from AA men. We also discussed a historical situation where the same BM leader/womanizers would NOT allow the personal to remain apolitical for Bayard Rustin.
Furthermore, the conversation has organically moved on to us discussing what can be done to decrease the numbers of losers, creeps, and internal monsters being raised by BF baby mamas.
Note that Mr. Grady feels entitled to come back here with the same topic that I already told him I was finished discussing with him (for the above reasons nos. 1-3).
This is an attempt at disruption at this point. Dear Audience: DO NOT FEED ANY MORE OXYGEN TO MR. GRADY AT THIS POINT. DO NOT respond to his current attempt at redirecting this conversation back onto HIM & HIS PERCEPTIONS, and AWAY from our concerns.
Mr. Grady simply does not understand our concerns. Don't allow him to waste your time rehashing something that we've completed.
I've watched some BM commenters do this sort of thing at other BW's blogs. The conversation, analysis & strategizing is flowing, and then a guy jumps into the conversation to either: (1) pick an argument; or (2) re-hash a completed exchange of ideas.
This is a technique that FBI agent-provocateurs used during the 1960s to disrupt movement meetings. The goal was to prevent anything productive happening at those meetings. Unfortunately, it worked many times because people let their emotions carry them into non-productive exchanges with the agent.
Don't fall for it. [I'm NOT saying that Shady Grady is an agent. I'm also NOT saying that he's necessarily deliberately trying to be disruptive. A sense of entitlement can lead to the same sort of behavior, without any deliberate, conscious intention of being disruptive.]
Let's learn from our activist predecessor's mistakes. This is a good opportunity for us all to practice self-discipline in our exchanges.
So here's what I'm going to do:
6-I'm not going to publish comments from people responding to Shady Grady's latest comment.
7-I'm not going to publish any further comments from Shady Grady about this particular topic (attempts at rehashing the exchange/debate about earlier BM activists).
8-If Shady Grady has something to add about running for our lives, then I will publish that.
I don't object to dissent. I DO object to disruption & wasting time! For example, Rev. Lisa & I have MANY permanent points of disagreement. Or as she says, there are many things that we can debate until Jesus returns! LOL!
We agree to disagree, and MOVE ON. We don't waste each other's time rehashing the same discussion over & over again. This shows mutual respect for each other, and respect for the seriousness of what we're dealing with. There is NO time to waste!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Lisa!
ReplyDeleteYour comment in response to Shady Grady got in "under the wire" before I finished writing & publishing my "teachable moment" comment. Your comment is time-stamped prior to my announcement about how Mr. Grady will be dealt with. That's the reason why I published it.
_______________________
Moving right along:
Your observations about anonymity & blocked profiles are on point. I see a number of behaviors that make me suspicious of some folks' motives for jumping into certain forums.
As you know, I'm deeply annoyed with voyeurs (folks who are eavesdropping who have no real stake in the serious matters being discussed). They are an irritant, but not a major concern. I AM concerned about the saboteurs who come to BW's consciousness-raising blogs in order to disrupt the discussions.
Furthermore, I'm deeply concerned by the level of what appears to me to be naivete on the part of those Black folks who are cyber-activists trying to do something more meaningful than run gossip blogs. I see a lot of confusion. I also see a lot of folks falling into the same traps that our activist predecessors fell into in the 1960s.
I notice that Evia (bless her) has a current post warning the "young'uns" to STOP going back & forth with hostile trolls online. This is good advice. I'm in the process of writing a post about some things that activists need to keep in mind while waging their struggles.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Pioneer Valley Woman!
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned the "feminist bogeywoman" card. {long sigh} It's in the deck of bad-faith arguments right next to the "you've been influenced by WHITE feminists" card.
I'm very weary of both attempts at McCarthyism: As if the only people who want JUSTICE for Black women must be under the influence of White feminists.
You've seen me have to (repeatedly) tell resentful BM commenters on other blogs that I've been "under the influence" of the Quran, and the writings of old-school Black male Nationalists like Haki Madhubuti. Let me repeat some of the quotes that I've had to acquaint them with:
"Why are Black women,by and large, more responsible than we? ....Is life worth living as wards of the state, wards of our women and without the ability to actively determine our own destiny?" Haki Madhubuti, "Black Men: Obsolete, Single, Dangerous? The Afrikan American Family in Transition" pg. 90 (emphasis added).
"Until we learn to love and protect our woman, we will never be a fit and recognized people on the earth. The white people here among you will never recognize you until you protect your woman.
The brown man will never recognize you until you protect your woman. The yellow man will never recognize you until you protect your woman. The white man will never recognize you until you protect your woman.
You and I may go to Harvard, we may go to York of England, or go to Al Azhar in Cairo and get degrees from all of these great seats of learning. But we will never be recognized until we recognize our women." Elijah Muhammad, "Message to the Blackman," pgs. 58-59.
The sorts of behavior that some of these BM are justifying was NEVER publicly advocated by the serious Black Nationalist "patriarchs."
For example, even Elijah Muhammad knew that what he was doing was wrong---that's why he concealed his adultery. He was a cult leader. His followers would have accepted ANYTHING he chose to do. If he had publicly announced his jump-offs as additional "wives" his followers would have accepted that. The fact that he took great pains to hide his adultery indicates that he knew he was WRONG.
I believe that part of what is so upsetting to some of these BM is that they are used to presuming that their position is the "Blacker than thou" position. It's NOT.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija,
ReplyDeleteWow. This is a really great post.
About the exclusion of baby mamas and bastard children...
I have a friend with 3 bastard children. I haven't felt the desire to be around her for many years now and I actually used my deployment to Afghanistan to keep minimal contact with her. When I say minimal, I send emails around holidays and that's it. I haven't spoken to her on the phone since September 2007 when I returned from Afghanistan.
My reasons for minimizing contact with her is because I want to surround myself with like-minded women. I used to feel guilty about that but I don't any more. I would be crazy to want to get caught up in her life.
I noticed there was discussion over what to do if there is an unplanned pregnancy but no mention of adoption. I think adoption is a better choice if there is a quality married couple to adopt the child. However, while cruising the blogosphere I noticed many black children (mostly female) being adopted by white heterosexual/gay/lesbian couples. In some ways I'm saddened by this as this takes a black child from one potentially harmful situation and puts him/her into another kind of potentially harmful situation.
The friend I mentioned above is half filipino. Being raised by a non-black women didn't stop the baby mama mentality that my friend suffers from. I attribute my friend's behavior to her up bringing. Filipino mom "taught" her all the wrong things about being black, which is why my friend is a baby mama and not wife.
Which brings me back to white heterosexual/gay/lesbian couples adopting black children. How are these people going to raise these kids? Will these white couples sit the children in front of Black Exploitation Television? (This is how I think my friend was raised.)
I just get saddened because it seems black children are screwed from the moment of conception. Many will never see the light of day thanks to abortion, others will be raised in fatherless homes, while a very small few will have the life all children should have.
I was born a bastard and often wonder what my life would have been like had my mom put me up for adoption. Sadly, I don't think my life would have been any different.
I don't believe in the birth control slip ups excuse. Women have got to learn they can't have sex like men. When women realize that truth, they won't have to worry about unplanned pregnancies.
Greetings, Shavonne!
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind words about the post. I truly appreciate it.
I must admit that I'm concerned about anybody using the legal/technical term "bastard" to refer to themselves. There are layers, levels, and nuances to what we're talking about in this discussion as pertains to the baby mamas. Here's what I mean:
Even though I was born within a marriage, if I go back in my family history it won't take long to find a White male rapist & a resulting "bastard" half-Black ancestor. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if my paternal grandfather was the product of such a rape. [He was from the South, and passed for White to get access to better jobs in the North in the 1930s. I don't know anything about his father. It was NEVER discussed while he was alive.]
I'm saying all of this to say that, on one level, ALL AAs have messed-up lineages---some of which can't even be officially traced at this point!
You have sound values. Sound enough to reject the baby mama culture. To me, that means that you were born out of wedlock as opposed to being a "bastard." This is the nuance that I mentioned. This is very similar to the position our people were in at the end of slavery. Almost NONE of the former slaves had "legitimate" marriages. Our people had to build decency from scratch. Collectively, AAs are in a similar spot today.
Regarding the OOW pregnancy tip: AA women need to stop tripping and acknowledge that they are the ones who will be left carrying the burden (& holding the bag) with OOW children. Period. The exception is NOT the rule. Like you noted, women can't afford to have sex "like men."
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello Khadija,
ReplyDeleteI would love to address you as Girl, because I feel like we are sisters, but then I would need forgiveness for addressing you so informally. I say this because of your profound, scholarly written posts. So whether Dr., professor, your highness, empress, or just Khadija, thank you for your mind. Reminds me of Evia (I wonder why???)
First of all, I must say brilliant post and responses to all. I say many a black folk ran when they saw the opportunity to leave the perpetual, oppressive societies in which they resided. Besides my parents, I know many. One of whom was one Mahala Dickerson.
http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/story/8658609p-8550625c.html
She was the first black attorney in Alabama, 2nd in Indiana and first in Alaska.
It was almost impossible for a black female attorney to find work in 1940s Montgomery, AL. It was hard in Indiana too. But in 1958 when Mahala better known as Ashley heard about the land available for homesteaders in Alaska, she did not look back. It was hard back in those days but she took her sons, braved the elements and drove up the ALCAN Highway. Ms. Dickerson accomplished her goal and found herself in Wasilla (yes she was there long before Sarah Palin was there) with her 60 acres which she homesteaded all by herself --- making her one of the first black homesteaders of a time when homesteading was much a thing of the past for Americans. She was welcomed by all the whites surrounding her. Believe me, I have driven this route in modern times and faced extreme weather conditions, so I can't imagine what Mahala faced back in 1958, when the roads were too hazardous to drive and let's not talk about the moose! This would be about the same distance as two or three counties over from a main city.
Mahala went on to become the first black female to pass the Bar, run an extremely successful law practice and was the recipient of many awards including the Margaret Brent Award, also given to Supreme Court Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sandra Day O'Connor.
So yes, Mahala ran, leaving her lifelong friend Rosa Parks to carry on the battle from that front while she tarried on as a pioneer paving the way for the blacks who would make the 49th state their home.
Mahala invited me to become an AKA, an offer (I declined though I accepted the scholarship). So your post was WRITING on time as most of us probably know some of these pioneers who ran. Maybe even some of their own great grandparents were part of this migration. I always encourage people to run to where the opportunities and prosperity are to be found. Get out of the rut and change your negative environment whenever and as soon as possible. Just go and don't look back.
During my sojourn at the University of Alaska Anchorage, I met up with 2 former Panther workers/supporters. Both extremely fair skinned women with light eyes and were the preferred of some members of the party. They told me first hand of the shady dealings (yes that one's for you shady) of the men during the day, and the chase for white women during the night. They both told me they got tired of that bs. One also even told me that some of the leaders expected them to sleep with wm for money to fund the movement. I had no reason to disbelieve her, but I did not understand the utter hypocrisy until later years.
Speaking of which.... I am sure you knew about Yusef Bey. This is right along the lines with elements of your posts. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/11/18/MNR4TCBIN.DTL
Thanks again.
Greetings, Lorraine!
ReplyDeleteJust "Khadija" or "Guuurl" are fine! LOL! Thank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it.
God rest Ms. Dickerson's soul. Thank you for sharing the information about her. We ran before to find better lives. We can do it again. Looking at all that Ms. Dickerson accomplished during that era, what's our excuse? As far as I'm concerned, there is NO legitimate excuse.
About the Panthers: The more I find out, the more disgusted I am with them. I am NOT surprised by what you've shared. Not at all.
About Yusuf Bey: Yes, I had heard about his mass rape/child molestation mini-cult. Some of the followers are alleged to have murdered a Black journalist (named Chauncey Bailey) who was doing unfavorable stories about them.
The only good thing I've heard about that particular sect is that one of Mr. Bey's sons, Yusuf Bey IV, allegedly led an attack on an immigrant Muslim-owned liquor store & demanded that they stop selling alcohol, etc. in the Black community.
Don't get me started on what I call the "Immigrant Muslim Merchants of Death" who gleefully sell alcohol, crack pipes, marijuana cigarette rolling papers, etc. within the Black community. Religiously forbidden items that could get them killed in many of their native countries.
Arab-worshipping BM Muslims have previously accused me of "getting my anti-Arab hate on" about this. It's not that I hate Arabs, Pakistanis, etc. It's that I don't have warm, fuzzy feelings for ANYBODY who is abusing & exploiting my people. This includes Black folks who are using & abusing other Blacks. I don't care who it is that's doing this. I OBJECT & will denounce this sort of behavior wherever I see it!
Furthermore, non-Muslim Black folks generally have NO idea of the TOTAL madness that has consumed the AA Muslim community.
I would refer interested readers to 2 posts (and the comments) where I discussed the details of what has gone hideously wrong within the Black American Muslim (BAM) community:
1-A guest post I wrote that Rev. Lisa was gracious enough to publish on her blog called "Why Black American Muslim Women Follow Muslim Ike Turners."
2-A post here from 10/27/08 called "Ladies, We Are on Our Own: Help is NOT on the Way."
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I only wish each and every little black girl had mandatory classes on Black Feminism prior to graduating from school. I say Black Feminism because it’s clear that the bw's struggle throughout history is barely touched on in school. Hell black history period is barely touched on except for the MLK/Rosa Parks education that's repeated year after year. There are so many intricate complexities to black women for little black girls to go thru life not knowing a lot of it is simply tragic. –Selena
ReplyDeleteSS: My blogging experience has given me a whole new perspective on life which has changed my perspective on some of my previously planned methods of home schooling, and curriculum choices as well. If you don’t mind, and Khadija doesn’t mind, do you mind listing some black feminist books or at least some links to where one could purchase this literature from? Also, are there any of these books written for children? I’m a firm believer in classical education; were there any black feminist in earlier centuries? Please and thank you in advance! : )
I agree with you Sister Seeking, bw are desperately in need of 'big sisters'; fellow bw who put our needs, our aspirations first and foremost, who guide us towards life fulfillment. what we have these days are 'Big Sacrificers' who are only too willing to offer us up as cannon fodder/collateral damage to the 'grand plan' for the race.-Halima
SS: You just summed up my LIFE experience! I don’t want to repeat the same mistake with my daughter, so I’m glad, I woke up NOW. She’s only 3—thank God! But it would be nice to have healthy strong woman IRL! : ) All the women I consider(ed) mentors are what Rev. Lisa coins as “grave diggers.” They are ((NOT)) evil, hateful, demonic people, but I realized they are part of the problem not the solution.
We can not assume that EVERY angry and resentful retort reveals that we are dealing with a person who can not become enlightened.-Lisa
SS: Point well taken. : ) You’re right this struggle is a HUMAN struggle that requires EVERYONE to change! The more men that can be reformed or reeducated or converted the better IMO.
We now need to begin to move into a space mentally where we are ready to start issuing consequences...unapologetically.-Lisa
SS: Alright * spiritual warrior woman* may I then ask what is the armor we should wear? I’m being serious. You seem well trained and prepared for spiritual warfare attacks. You know that if this happens in large numbers of BW (((EVERYONE))) not just BM will throw a spar back? Other groups have profited off of the pain, suffering, and disadvantage of BW for decades. If you’re saying what I think you’re saying…
As women, we need to renew our own minds. We also need to start enforcing sanctions against the serial baby mamas who generate the bulk of our internal monsters. We also need to start enforcing sanctions against the Black women who (in any way) enable BM to engage in exploitative behavior.-Khadija
SS: I’m game. Starting with myself, and my family. Waving my*pink* flag over here! lo l: )
I've recently realized that some people are reading my introspection (and other) essays as a form of recreation. This is fine. However, people need to understand that I CANNOT guarantee that any conversation will remain within the bounds of anybody's comfort zone. Including my own. I will do my best to be considerate and compassionate; but I can't safeguard comfort zones. The issues that we're discussing are life & death. I'm going to start giving this warning in my future introspection essays. –Khadija
SS: Point NOW taken. : )
Black people who want to get away from poor black people and/or DBR black people (this unfortunately includes some middle income blacks) might consider moving to cities that have low black populations (so the "tipping point" effect is not a problem): cities like San Diego, California; Phoenix, Arizona; Seattle, Washington; Portland, Oregon; Sante Fe, New Mexico, etc. Notice that these cities, all reputed to be fairly "progressive" cities, are located in the western or southwestern part of the United States .-ELG
SS: My neighborhood is predominately Hispanic, and white—due to our recession/depression mortgage holders are now renting out both town homes and single family homes. As a result of this, people who would have not normally been able to live where we live, now do. I live in Northern Virginia . People from what I call the crotch states or counties are now coming here to escape the madness—but their teenagers, and young folks—are bringing in the madness from places like: Orange Jersey; Philly; Baltimore, Brooklyn New York etc . The Hispanics in our neighborhood are hard working, and family oriented people. I rarely any of their old or young males out on the streets. My only complaint of them is that music on Saturday nights! lol I don’t care if two or three families live in one house because they are not acting like the black neighbors from the crotch places. “IF” our economy recovers, my husband and I are planning on moving out to a more rural or farm town. I’m willing to commute for cultural activities so I’m not worried about ethnic isolation anymore. I have a co-worker who sits on a HOA board, and what I’ve learned from her is that many on the board prefer Hispanic migrant workers to us—including us college educated folk. So in the mean time, we half to work on saving up more money, and getting all credit issues straight. I’m thinking we are going to end up renting our town home out.
P&B Destouet,
ReplyDeleteWOW! Your comments send chills up my spine woman… I could swear that I wrote that… WOW!
Look at how the Universe works…
I remember for a long time, I was uncomfortable with telling other AA women that I was a stay-at-home mother. Why? Because my husband is an AA male. At one point, I just stopped telling other women because somehow they were under the assumption that I was lazy. But my husband urged me to continue to tell the truth because "they need to know."
Even now, I fight back the tendency (when an AA woman asks me what do I do) to list all of the things I do during the day with my youngest son like take him to the park, library, read to him, cook for him, paint with him, take him to the museum, etc to try and prove to them that I am NOT lazy. But I fight back that tendency and just admit that my husband works and I stay at home with my son during the day. And I hate to say it but it is NOT okay for a 6 year old child to come home to an empty house. So, I also have to be home when my
SS: Destouet, I had this experience with ALL AA women—including the educated professionals, but after reading, and hearing comments about Khadija essays on how the culture of the underclass has penetrated the middle class, I now get it. This is one reason I quit going to Mocha moms actually. When I was SAHM, I found more “respect” in the white or so called multi-cultural groups—also, I didn’t half to fend off questions about the authenticity of my marriage because of my husband’s immigrant status or culture—in fact, that aspect was actually embraced. Many of them were in mixed marriages of various kinds ( race, culture, religion, and sexual orientation). My husband though, didn’t respond with the diplomatic attitude like yours! lol He encouraged me to stop limiting myself to just AA’s, and get out meeting other mothers so I wouldn’t be isolated. He also reacted with anger when I came home frustrated and angry about having to constantly explain why I’m Muslim, why I’m married young, and why my daughters name is such and such which how people found out he is not American.
I concur with Rev. Lisa—you should not feel guilty for honoring your parental obligations in the manner you feel is best for you, and your family. This is YOUR choice. I believe that one day, be it here within the manifestation of the universe or the after life, that all of us who conceived will be held accountable for our deeds to our own children. May I share what I’ve learned on my own motherhood journey? Now that I’m a full time working mother, I’ve learned that what ever option you choose it’s hard: but I believe staying home is actually harder when you don’t have the option for what ever reason of delegating parental duties to others. I’ve met many women of all religions, ethnicities, and income levels that went back to work to escape home making, and all they believed that entailed. This is why I love Charlotte Mason so much because she understood the manner, and act of “offending the children.” The BW who claim that SAHM are lazy are not dissenting based on evidence notice, they are dissenting based on 1) pure envy and jealousy 2) lack of exposure to what Khadija has called “old values” Evia calls “quality mates” and Rev Lisa calls “ self actualization” and 3) the sense of entitlement to “offend the children” because they think they are slaves…
So… after reflecting on the messages on a few think tanks, I’ve decided I’m just going to completely ignore people who don’t share the same values if they are going to engage in deliberate spiritual warfare attacks on me, and my family.
@ Khadija and others:
Here are some words of wisdom from one of my favorite classical educators:
I thought this timely in light of the mention of children:
Code of Education in the Gospels.––It may surprise parents who have not given much attention to the subject to discover also a code of education in the Gospels, expressly laid down by Christ. It is summed up in three commandments, and all three have a negative character, as if the chief thing required of grown-up people is that they should do no sort of injury to the children: Take heed that ye OFFEND not––DESPISE not––HINDER not––one of these little ones.
So run the three educational laws of the New Testament, which, when separately examined, appear to me to cover all the help we can give the children and all the harm we can save them from––that is, whatever is included in training up a child in the way he should go. Let us look upon these three
vol 1 pg 13
great laws as prohibitive, in order to clear the ground for the consideration of a method of education; for if we once settle with ourselves what we may not do, we are greatly helped to see what we may do, and must do. But, as a matter of fact, the positive is included in the negative, what we are bound to do for the child in what we are forbidden to do to his hurt.
III.––Offending the Children
Offences.––The first and second of the Divine edicts appear to include our sins of commission and of omission against the children: we offend them, when we do by them that which we ought not to have done; we despise them, when we leave undone those things which, for their sakes, we ought to have done. An offence, we know, is literally a stumbling-block, that which trips up the walker and causes him to fall. Mothers know what it is to clear the floor of every obstacle when a baby takes his unsteady little runs from chair to chair, from one pair of loving arms to another. The table-leg, the child's toy on the floor, which has caused a fall and a pitiful cry, is a thing to be deplored; why did not somebody put it out of the way, so that the baby should not stumble? But the little child is going out into the world with uncertain tottering steps in many directions. There are causes of stumbling not so easy to remove as an offending footstool; and woe to him who causes the child to fall!
Children are born Law-abiding.––'Naughty baby!' says the mother; and the child's eyes droop, and a flush rises over neck and brow. It is very
vol 1 pg 14
wonderful; very 'funny,' some people think, and say, 'Naughty baby!' when the baby is sweetly good, to amuse themselves with the sight of the infant soul rising visibly before their eyes. But what does it mean, this display of feeling, conscience, in the child, before any human teaching can have reached him? No less than this, that he is born a law abiding being, with a sense of may, and must not, of right and wrong. That is how children are sent into the world with the warning, "Take heed that ye offend not one of these little ones." And––this being so––who has not met big girls and boys, the children of right-minded parents, who yet do not know what must means, who are not moved by ought, whose hearts feel no stir at the solemn name of Duty, who know no higher rule of life than 'I want,' and 'I don't want,' 'I like,' and 'I don't like'? Heaven help parents and children when it has come to that!
http://www.amblesideonline.org/CM/1_1.html
Sister Seeking:
ReplyDeleteIf you don’t mind, and Khadija doesn’t mind, do you mind listing some black feminist books or at least some links to where one could purchase this literature from? Also, are there any of these books written for children? I’m a firm believer in classical education; were there any black feminist in earlier centuries? Please and thank you in advance! : )
My reply:
Black feminist anthologies are an excellent introduction to black feminist thought.
Here are a few:
Words of Fire, Beverly Guy-Sheftall coedited.
Patricia Hill Collins, Black Feminist Thought.
Layli Phillips, The Womanist Reader.
These are more appropriate for older students, though, for example, high school age youngsters, since these are taught traditionally in college and graduate level classes.
As for teaching a much younger child, if you're planning on raising a budding black feminist (smile), the closest I have seen have been books/stories/fairy tales that show empowering and uplifting images of black girls. These can be found in mainstream bookstores, browsing around, or in black bookstores.
sister seeking,
ReplyDeletethank you for that lesson at the end.
I admit, I am still in the process of tying much of what I've learned from these blogs together...and I still have a long way to go.
I've never just limited myself to AA's (I know you did not say such a thing) even in my younger days, I was known to "creep" to the other side of town when I ran most of my errands. This became especially true when I needed to surround myself with like-minded women who nursed, co-slept or just understood the importance of taking the time to read to your child. When I gave birth to my first child, I stayed in one particular park in the suburbs of Philadelphia watching women interact with their children.
However, this is ONE of the areas I don't understand. On the one hand, I am reading that those of us who want to survive & thrive need to remove ourselves as far away from those who do not share the same values as us. And those who will try to poison our way of thinking. Limit our communication with these individuals, among other things. But if we are going to do that, who is going to teach the younger generation what many of us already know?
I read somewhere on another blog that living well is the "best example" to those who are not -but then who are seeing us live well, except other folks who live well?
Are we trying to save individual woman or generations of young girls who will one day grow to be women?
Because it is much easier to save an individual because nine times out of ten, they have been prepping themselves for this moment (whatever that moment may be).
To save future generations, we are going to need women -of this caliber- to do much of the leg work. Get themselves in position to carry out this word --if we are talking about saving future generations of young girls.
Speaking from experience, I can tell you that much of what is being discussed here is not making its way to the ears of black girls. For no other reason than many AA women who are living well want to keep what they know a secret.
I am not defending the hard-headed, ignorant young women who do not want to hear ANYTHING, I am speaking about the young women who have asked questions and were ignored or blew off.
(I remember about a year into my marriage, my husband and I were NOT getting along, and I was very anger & confused. I went to a AA woman who was truly "living well" and asked her for some advice. This chick thought so much of herself, she answered it while she was walking down the steps. SMH )
I knew plenty of women who were living the good life -who were married to quality decent men but would never share their secrets. There are more of them than there are of the ones who will freely give this wisdom away.
Like I asked, who are we trying to save? Because a resilient individual who has some tangled thoughts that needs to be combed out, is a dime a dozen. And for the most part, we don't need to worry about them. One way or the other, they will "get it together."
As far as being pioneers, I hate to say this, but most people are followers. It does not matter the book you shove into their hands, the music you bless their ears with, the poem you make them digest, or the God you ask them to listen to. Most people are sheep.
Hello there, Sister Seeking/Miriam!
ReplyDeleteThe only book that comes to mind immediately is When and Where I Enter by Paula Giddings.
_______________________________
Hello there, DeStouet!
A few thoughts in response to your recent questions about saving future generations:
How do we save "future generations" when most of "us" are NOT saved?
I believe that charity begins at home. Most of "us" don't have stable, much less fulfilling, lives. Most of "us" are not living well.
It's good that you've seen so many Black women who are living well. I have NOT seen that. Now I DO see a number of Black women who outwardly appear to be living well. Many of us know how to FRONT like we're living well.
About 90% of the Black marriages where I know one of the spouses well enough to know some of what is really happening are BAD marriages. By "bad" I mean where one of the spouses is doing something (or many somethings) that's creating extreme unhappiness for the other spouse.
I know a number of women who are married to men who cheat on them. I know several women who are married to (and supporting) no-working husbands. I know women who are married to men who beat them. I know several professional Black women who have all 3 of these problems going on (simultaneously) in their marriages to BM.
My former supervisor that I mentioned in an earlier post is married to a Negro criminal who: (1) beats her; (2) won't work; (3) uses drugs; and (4) pawns the expensive jewelry that she buys him & spends this money on other women. I'm only aware of this because he comes to her work site to "show out." To those who see her in other settings (and don't know any better), she fronts like she's "got it going on."
Another BF attorney's no-working Negro husband came to her worksite & beat her in the employee parking lot. In front of her White colleagues. In front of her clients.
I know of one married BM judge who was having sex with his jumpoffs in his chambers (until the sheriff's office got wind of this and complained).
I know another married BM judge (who it turns out had gone to law school with my father) who chases women at work. I know this because I worked in his courtroom for about a year.
[*It's not only many of the BM judges who are fools. I worked in a courtroom with a Puerto Rican judge who's wife came and staked out his courtroom every day for several weeks. He was spending a LOT of time secluded in his chambers with a particular WF prosecutor. And so his wife sat there for weeks in the audience. Wearing her furs and expensive jewelry. Staring.]
ALL of the Black women in these marriages FRONT like they're living well.
Several of my married BM colleagues like to have sex with jumpoffs in their offices after hours at work. One individual is crazy enough to have sex with his clients. Some of them are so sloppy with their dirt that there's no way that their wives don't know.
All of this madness is common knowlegde at work. I get the feeling that this madness is NOT common knowledge for most of these people's non-work-related acquaintances, etc. So, these wives can successfully front like they're living well in other settings.
I know an even larger number of married Black women who's marriages are emotionally barren. They can't talk to their husbands about anything. It's like living with a roommate that one is having sex with.
I figure that each woman who's spirit is lifted will have a ripple effect on those who knew her before she renewed her mind & improved her life. They will know that she escaped a life of suffering. They might even be inspired to try to find out how she did it.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
A few thoughts about the madhouse situation with the married AA professionals that I know:
ReplyDeleteThe rarity of marriage among AAs weakens those few marriages that do exist. This, along with the gross gender numerical imbalance, makes the all-AA dating/marriage pool a man's market.
This situation helps to encourage the sort of behavior that I described above by married AA men who are considered (on paper) a "good catch" because of their employment status. It creates a culture of impunity among professional/prominent AA men.
For those who think I'm exaggerating in the above description of work-related sex follies, here's an example of a Negro judge who made the mistake of trying to include too many WW prosecutors in his follies: The former judge Oliver Spurlock lost his robe behind this sort of behavior.
Here's a link:
http://www.surveyusa.com/Archived/
Articles/suntimes0606.htm
Some White female prosecutors accused him of sexual harassment. The court system rumors were that he had harassed some of them; and that other WW claimed harassment because they got caught dallying with him. Whatever. He had developed a reputation as a Negro who HATED & dogged out Black women.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Something's wrong with the link. For those who are interested, just google "Judge Oliver Spurlock" and you'll get the scoop.
ReplyDeletePeace and blessings.
@ Miriam
ReplyDeleteYou said:
Code of Education in the Gospels.––It may surprise parents who have not given much attention to the subject to discover also a code of education in the Gospels, expressly laid down by Christ. It is summed up in three commandments, and all three have a negative character, as if the chief thing required of grown-up people is that they should do no sort of injury to the children: Take heed that ye OFFEND not––DESPISE not––HINDER not––one of these little ones.
This is a stunningly errant misinterpretation of Christian teaching.
Since you have been Muslim since your teen years, it does not surprise me that you would not have been taught how to interpret the Holy Bible.
I read comments from Muslims from time to time that ATTEMPT to explain Christian doctrine to all! It's interesting that some would be BOLD enough to attempt to explain Christian doctrine that they clearly don't understand and have spent so little time studying seriously
.
There is a correct way and an incorrect way to approach scripture when reading the Holy Bible.
You have just demonstrated the incorrect way.
I am not a Muslim so I am sure that the manner in which we are teaching Christians to interpret scripture IS NOT the method that Muslims are using to teach their doctrine to their followers.
I am sure that many people ASSUME that the methods of interpreting the scriptures in one particular group will APPLY to all...I am not saying YOU have made this assumption however.
Those who have made that assumption are sorely mistaken.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
@ Destouet
ReplyDeleteIt is necessary for women who do not understand HOW to reinforce their self-preservation to LEAVE AND SEPARATE from soul-depleting and black misogynist settings.
This may also include breaking ties with some family members who reinforce the "grave digger" mentality.
I have ministered to many recovering drug addicts. In drug recovery programs they are required to change their PEOPLE, their PLACES and their THINGS.
Those who refuse to do all three have the greatest rates of returning to the thinking that fueled their addiction.
I believe that it is necessary for black women who have been conditioned to be "grave diggers" and conditioned to "save black men" and conditioned to "be all things to all people when no one is attempting to be all things to you"... THOSE women must separate themselves from persons and settings that reinforce this script.
This is why cult organizations separate the new recruits from all that is familiar with them in order to "re-program" them and in order to indoctrinate them into a new way of life.
Separation is always important in adopting a new mindset.
There ARE black women who have become liberated and who have reached a place of wellness. They are able to return to the death camps (concentration camps that are all-black neighborhoods in economically-depressed areas) and begin to "evangelize" those who need to plan their escape.
When you get on an airplane, the flight attendants give a word of caution... in the event of a crisis...SECURE YOUR OWN oxygen mask before attempting to save others.
Black women must heed this advice. Save YOUR OWN life first!
Khadija,
ReplyDeleteSince you broke it down like that, many of the women I mentioned probably were "fronting" and just pretending to have it going on.
And since I was not privy to their lives at home, all I saw -at that time- were women who were married, living in neighborhoods were there was no shooting, women who smiled A LOT, women who were articulate and very educated. They appeared not to be heavily involved in the ghetto culture and were (in my eyes) living better than I was.
Later when I was exposed to more women and families from middle class, I discovered many people had some of the same problems and hang-ups as people from the "ghetto" and even mentioned it in one of my comments. To which you made a comment something like, "for every level there is another devil."
@Lisa,
You may know some women who have been liberated and went back to share with younger women what they have learned but I have not met one -who was not a "grave-digger". You may even know a few women who have never believed in the "contract", and were strong enough to go into all-black settings and share with young ladies how valuable they really are, but I do not.
Speaking from experience, almost every women who have ever given me advice or tried to tell me what path to take, was a "grave-digger". I've repeated numerous times, that I have NEVER heard women of your caliber speak...I'm not just saying that to say it.
And as a child, I'd been in group-homes, a few public schools, therapy, shelters, foster-homes, psychiatric centers. No one.
As an adult, I've read books, and essays. I've asked questions, and made phone calls. I've also mentioned several times that it was a man (my elder) who helped me get on the right track. I've also mentioned -at your blog- it was two white men who actually moved mountains to get me in better facilities as a child.
And up until now, I have never heard a woman, or a group of women, speak up for black girls and black women.
Never.
So, I believe they exist...somewhere. I just have NEVER met one.
Your point about saving yourself first, is well-taken.
Hello there, DeStouet!
ReplyDeleteThere are serious problems throughout the entire AA collective. Problems that we collectively tend to pretend only exist among the underclass.
The "BFIM--Pondering" sidebar at Evia's blog has an eye-opening post: "Pondering: Domestic Violence Against Wealthy Black Married Women" The post has links to information about domestic violence (and fatalities) from Prince George County [which I hear is one of the wealthiest majority Black areas in the US].
Now, I'm NOT saying that all, or even a majority of, AA marriages are poisoned by adultery and domestic violence. I have no idea what the (true) statistics are about any of that.
I AM saying that from what I've seen by personal observation over the years, the Huxtables are VERY few and far between among the existing AA marriages.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
The rarity of marriage among AAs weakens those few marriages that do exist.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this khadija. i said this to a popular writter several years ago and the woman turned on me so fast. Bw, we love to bury our heads in the sand and avoid brutal reality as much as possible.
to take us off tanget a slight bit, yes, how can and do we expect there to be paucity of marriages and hordes of single ladies still looking for 'their bm' and those few marriages not experince distabilising forces. The whole situation is very corrupting and destabilising.
Not just that, marriage becomes less and less of a necessity for the men in such a situation (ie the good ones that we are told exist in utter abundance somewhere round the corner). And if they do marry we are looking at very late marriages with men tying the knot from 40 upwards. Lets be real here, why would they not enjoy the 'varied opportuntities' in front of them for as long as possible.
This is so easy to see, but black folks want bw to make their computations and behave like bm will somehow act differently from what the average man would do given the same set of circumstances of surplus women, because being black somehow makes them always act with integrity towards bw or something!
Good Morning, Halima!
ReplyDeleteAs you summed it up so elegantly, "The whole situation is very corrupting and destabilising." And this is quite obvious for any Black woman who is NOT a resident of Fantasy Island.
The only thing that will solve this problem (which has a gross numerical gender imbalance at its root) is for more Black women to date and marry out. Then AA men will lose their imbalance-based dating pool advantages, and the Black relationship "market forces" will settle into something much less toxic.
NOT empty rhetoric about Black love. NOT Black women praying for "their" BM husband. NOT Black women pretending that involuntary solitude is some sort of spiritual gift. NOT any of the coping mechanisms that most Black women have adopted so far.
If it wasn't for all the BM-centric indoctrination, more BW would be able to see this quite obvious fact.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
P&B
ReplyDeleteThanks for the book suggestions!
@Rev Lisa
Thanks for the “re-direction” point made.
Hold on!
ReplyDeleteReverend Lisa, I went back and re-read my comments to see where I had performed theological commentary.
I realized that format I posted it in ( I pasted and copied from Ambelside to Word) may have made it look like all the comments were from me.
I only said the greetings to others and Khadija. The comments you highlighted are from Charlotte Mason not from me. That's why I included link.
Believe me, I have NO desire to tell people how to think, how to live, or how to feel. Unless asked, and even then, I'm going through so MANY changes, I'm not entirely certian on new issues, I never knew of. Because all of us are sincerely concerned about children, and we spoke about the rights of others being violated, it reminded me of what Charlotte Mason said in her six volumes.
If I offended you I apologized and will be sure to erase the spaces in the future.
P/B
www.ambelside.org
Wow! I've read every single comment and have taken a deep breath. You've made me think long and hard Khadija just like Rev. Lisa.
ReplyDeleteYou take a tough line and it made me uncomfortable and I like that! What resonated most for me were the comments about standards and about judgment.
It's funny that I've always been judmental and torn because of it. You've repeated so many of the things I've thought about others that I believe are less than.
It was uncomfortable in a good way because we get salty most when we see ourselves in others. I saw myself in you and thought dang! I think the same way as well.
I currently live in San Francisco and have felt literal disgust with the crude, vulgar, disrespectful and criminal mentality of many Blacks living here.
I don't even associate with that way of life because it has always angered me that poverty is somehow and excuse for lack of self respect and discipline.
I grew up working class in Harlem and was raised to respect myself and others. Period. Bad and deviant behavior was not tolerated.
I was raised with many Black Nationalist teachings like you. Your comments about your "soft spot" for the "Black Community" made me smile because I have that same soft spot. Sigh.
Sometimes it's hard to give up the dream Khadija, but our survival depends on letting go of dysfunction. It is the reason why I purge frequently whether it be myself, friends or family members (lets not forget them because they are often the toughest)
Now I spent some time growing up in the "Projects" and while I was in in them, I was not of them. I believe there is a distinction. My body was there, but my mind was not.
I owe that to the diligence of my family and their disciplined teaching. Maybe I wouldn't be allowed into your Sorority Khadija, but worthwhile people can be found in the most unexpected of places. Remember that.
I am very pleased to have found you and this amazing space. Thank you so much for your honesty and care (even though it's tough @ times, we need it).
Simone
@ Miriam
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for commenting.
I do apologize for attributing those comments to you but EVENTHOUGH you provided a link...you were the person adding in that information about Christianity in this discussion... information that was false.
I don't spread untruths about Islam... in MY own comments or in links.
That is the vital issue I believe.
I am NOT offended when I issue correction.
I am teaching.
I don't teach from the place of offense but from the place of desiring enlightenment for others (and myself).
I made the correction only because there are others who may be reading along who may be CONFUSED about what Christianity is.
When we select links that have ERRONEOUS interpretations of doctrines that we don't even study, and we do not mention that it is an EXAMPLE OF ERRONEOUS doctrine, then it may leads those who are reading to think that you believe you are presesnting credible and correct information.
My sincerest apologies that I made the assumption that you were thinking THAT was correct.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Greetings, SDG1844/Simone!
ReplyDeleteI applaud your patience in going through all of this reading material! I truly appreciate you (and other audience members) taking the time to do that. Most of all, I value your contribution to these discussions. THANK YOU!
As you said, poverty is no excuse for crude, savage behavior. My parents grew up poor in tenements in Chicago. Nobody around them excused or allowed deviant, savage behavior.
In fact, when my Dad was a young man, a known pedophile like R.Kelly would have "come up missing," or been found face-down & dead in an alley. Old-school Black men did not tolerate that sort of open predatory behavior. Especially when it pertained to children.
"Chester the Known Child Molester" had a hard way to go in yesteryear's Black community. Today, "Chester" is welcomed with open arms and celebrated. Obviously, many things have gone horribly wrong with our people.
Our widespread embrace of "Chester" (aka Ar-ruh Kelly) lets me know that our people have become as evil as the modern Congolese society. We're just a hop & a skip away from a similar total meltdown within Black US residential areas. Some Black residential areas (like Dunbar Village) are already Congo-style mass rape zones.
What's going on right now in Black residential areas is not about poverty. It's about depravity.
I HATE the fact that things have gotten to the point that I feel the need to contemplate blanket exclusions. If we had upheld some standards during the past 30 years, things wouldn't have gotten to this point.
It's a shame & a disgrace. But at this point, as you noted, "our survival depends on letting go of dysfunction." Drastic measures are necessary at this point. {very long sigh}
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Oh my Khadija! I had no idea you were blogging (IF you're the same Khadija I know). Well there is so much to read and catch up on. I just wanted to share my glee about this until I do. I will be back to comment on this.
ReplyDeletePeace and Blessings!
Greetings, La Incognita!
ReplyDeleteI look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija,
ReplyDeleteI am very late in this discussion but I just wanted to add my two cents.
In addressing the call to move out of black Rwanda-style areas-I'm all for it. I have an issue, though. The thought of walking out my door an seeing no black people is not appealing to me. Neither is moving to a state where there are hardly no black people. I went to all-white schools pretty much all my life until college. What about the cultural isolation that alot of black people feel when they move into all or predominately white areas. I understand that our lives are at stake. It is an emergency situation. But there are also some things to consider when moving away from these area. And just for clarification, are all black neighborhoods considered to be dangerous? What about the higher income black enclaves that exist?
As for the failure of black leadership to tend to the needs of black women, I wrote a post about that mon ths ago called "Confessions of a Former Black Male Apologist." I have read about the many black male leaders who went against their own priciples by running behind white women. I must say that as a person who was strongly influenced by black nationalist thought, I am disheartened by that. But at this point, I ceased to be surprised by some black men's failure to step up and be real men.
As for the baby mama issue, I don't understand where this phenomenon comes from. At one time, illegitimacy was frowned upon except for in a small segment of the black population. Now it seems that a large part of the AA population acsepts being baby-mamas and baby daddies as normal appropriate behavior. It seems that no one wants to be married anymore. It makes it very difficult for sistas who have standards and are looking to become someone's wife. And I put the bulk of the responsibility for this foolishness on the women because they keep choosing to sleep with dysfunctional men over and over again. Only a fool makes the same mistake twice. Fatherlessness has become the norm even in middle-class communities. I am perplexed as to why this has become normal. Its even to the point that people think you're strange if you are a young woman with no kids. One time, I had some young ladies ( about 13 & 14 year olds) ask me why didn't I have children. When I told them it was because I am not married, they proceeded to inform me that I didn't need a husband to have children. So the mentality starts young.
Nice post, as usual.
Peace and solidarity,
Tasha
Greetings, Tasha!
ReplyDeleteI don't like the idea of cultural isolation either. But it's a life or death situation at this point.
My mind keeps drifting back to Blair Holt. If I remember correctly, his father is a police officer and his mother is a firefighter. [I might have their jobs reversed.] They weren't poor; and now their only child is dead. It's better to be alive and culturally disoriented than to be dead.
I'm not very familiar with the everyday circumstances of the true Black elite. I don't know what's going on in the places where they live. But it's been my observation that even solidly middle-class & upper middle-class Black areas are dangerous. The "element" has penetrated these places. Often by being imported into the area by their foolish, naive middle class Black relatives.
The "Fresh Prince" scenario is actually a horror story in real life.
There is a common problem within Black middle class areas of folks bringing their dangerous, scummy relatives into the neighborhood. Many folks will allow their criminally-inclined nephew "Ray-Ray" to live/visit/hang out in their homes. Ray-Ray then brings all of his slum activities & friends into this environment.
Or an elderly middle class person will leave their home to their drug addicted adult child.
Or there are situations like what happened on my parents' block: Within a matter of months after his wife passed, an elderly neighbor took up with a much younger female dope fiend that he moved into his home.
This turned into an extended ordeal for everybody else on the block. After about 6 months, this neighbor was in a nursing home while the female dope fiend and their toddler child remained behind in his house.
Then this female dope fiend started bringing "company" over. Then one of her young male friends started selling drugs out of this house. Then another elderly couple down the block looked out their window one morning to see some Negroes fighting in their backyard. As you can imagine, there were many other negative events. Too many for me to list.
The people on my parents' block harassed the local police precinct into keeping the now-crackhouse under intermittent obvious surveillance. [With an unmarked police car with 2 White detectives parked just outside the crackhouse.] Even with all of this, it took about a year for this female dope fiend to go away and move.
Furthermore, because of our coddle-the-criminals-based confusion, most AAs (including the middle class) are unwilling to adopt any safety measures that would truly be effective. We won't hire private, armed security. We won't take up legal arms ourselves. At best, we will whine to mostly nonresponsive police departments.
I short, AAs lack the will to keep Black residential areas safe. So yes, I believe that ALL Black residential areas must be evacuated. [With the only possible exception of truly elite Black areas that I know very little about.]
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija, re the concern about bw fleeing to mostly white communities and the cultural isolation involved, this is why I proposed the idea of the OASIS. However, I admit that's not a feasible idea for most AA women at this point in time.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of cultural isolation, I don't live around black people and I do just fine. Anytime, I want to participate in "black" events or such, I can drive to them. I belong to a "black women's" discussion group and a "black women's" book club, and a black women's knitting club, and all of my girlfriends are "black" women. I also belong to a black church and serve as a member on community boards in the black community, so I certainly get enough contact with black folks. LOL!
Also, AA women can "choose" to see this as an opportunity for them to broaden themselves. That's the positive in this. I don't think it's good for adults or children to remain isolated from other groups in the world. Black women do need to mix and mingle more and the more they do it, the more comfortable they will become.
As you and I know, there are only so many ways out of the very tight corner that many AA women are in. But I always come back to marriage because it's the most feasible way out for MANY of them. And these women, who view this path as a way out, must focus exclusively on non-coloristic QUALITY men.
However when many AA women meet an interested Quality wm or other non-AA man, they're waiting for a roaring fire to start inside of them and when/if it doesn't, they conclude that the man is not appealing. WRONG! They just haven't learned how to view a Quality non-AA man in the proper way.
First of all, they shouldn't even view ANY man as mainly a sex machine. If that's all a man can do for a woman, then she needs to pay for that at a brothel. LOL! A woman should instead be looking at a man's QUALITIES and TRAITS. If a man has certain qualities and traits and loves a woman, he will be able to satisfy a woman in the physical way because a man who loves a woman is going to do the ultimate to satisfy her--practically whatever she wants him to do.
So, it's true that many, but not all, of these AA women can marry out. Even some of those with children (babymama types) can marry out if they get more education and refinement and thus conduct themselves in a certain way. This CAN be done if a woman makes a decision to do this.
I think sometimes that ALL babymamas are lumped together, but some of them are salvageable--if they only know how to salvage themselves.
In a patriarchial world, marriage continues to be a conduit for a more elevated life for even many ww, aw, hw, and African women, so it can also work very well for AA women. The only AA women who can't stand the thought of that are the nothing-but-a-bm type of bw, and sadly many of those women and their children have become and will continue to be prey.
Tasha212:
ReplyDeleteOne time, I had some young ladies ( about 13 & 14 year olds) ask me why didn't I have children. When I told them it was because I am not married, they proceeded to inform me that I didn't need a husband to have children. So the mentality starts young.
My reply:
Not surprising, when about 2/3 of black children today are born out of wedlock.
These young people know nothing else, when they see that their mothers are the ones who raise them. The fathers are nowhere to be found, or they just "pass through".
What are their mothers telling them about what to expect from life (and men, perhaps) when they choose the route of single parenting without marriage?
They are learning that men are nothing more than sperm donors. So there is no need to date a man with marriage in mind, because they probably don't know many married couples. At most, they might know couples that are divorced. So in their mind, there is no need for parenting within marriage.
What are the young men learning? They are learning that childrearing within marriage is not their responsibility; it is a "woman thing," having nothing to do with them. At most, they need only pay child support.
Hello there, Evia!
ReplyDeleteI agree that where there is a will there is a way. As you noted, it's quite possible to find ways to keep in touch with Black-oriented activities & Black gatherings.
I also agree that a healthy, wholesome marriage to a Quality Man is the most efficient way for AA women to get out the these extremely tight corners that the bulk of us are in.
However, I must confess: I really miss my childhood all-Black middle-class neighborhood. The way it was when I was growing up. The way it was before the element invaded the area. Even though where I live now is mixed (and not all-White), and I participate in Black-oriented events & gatherings, I deeply miss "Big Mama's house."
This is part of why I'm so furious with the element. They murdered something that was precious to me. Something that can't really be replaced. The replacement neighborhood in the suburbs has its own (different) charms. It just doesn't have the same emotional resonance to me as my childhood neighborhood.
It's similar to the way many of us felt about ice cream when we were small children. The ice cream from the refrigerator at home just wasn't the same or as satisfying as the ice cream from the Good Humor ice cream truck.
{sigh}
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"I must admit that I'm concerned about anybody using the legal/technical term "bastard" to refer to themselves. There are layers, levels, and nuances to what we're talking about in this discussion as pertains to the baby mamas."
ReplyDeleteI'm not into changing the dictionary definition of "bastard" to apply only to certain people. To me, there is no gray area as the gray area permits the mentality behind the baby mamas because the gray area takes the sting out of the word and the shame out of the lifestyle/mentality. I am what I am I can't change the actions of my mother but I can change things for any children I produce. My goal is when I know better I WILL do better.
Hello there, Shavonne!
ReplyDelete{raised fist salute}
Now that you've clarified where you're coming from, I applaud your courage! I agree---there is NO dishonor upon you based upon other people's choices/actions.
I was originally concerned that some folks born out of wedlock might think of the term "bastard" in a way that unjustly reflected upon THEIR honor & choices. This is what I meant when I spoke of layers & nuances.
As I alluded to earlier, newly escaped & freed slaves had no control over the fact that their children during slavery were born out of wedlock; or that they were living with people without being legally married.
These circumstances did not reflect upon their honor; they had no choice in these matters. However, the life choices they made after freedom did reflect upon them. This is why so many of our escaped/newly freed ancestors rushed to have legally recorded marriages. They cleaned up these "shacking" situations as soon as they could do so.
The disgrace is that we've gone backwards. Now that legitimate marriage is available to us, we have gone back to the out of wedlock "stud horse" and "broodmare" lifestyle that our people were forced to live through during slavery.
Again, I salute your courage & willingness to face facts! Too many AAs have the habit of trying to redefine words to sugarcoat harsh reality.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Wow Khadija
ReplyDeleteAll those black women you worked with at your law firm. I can't believe that anybody would work hard and study hard in a university, then work harder at a law school in order to study harder for the bar exam, become a lawyer, maybe even make partner, gain the material things they wanted a large house, a great car etc. all to give all or 'share' it all with a no-working husband who may even beat them? And beat them in full daylight and public no less.
Wow. But this behavior is what has come to be expected from Prince George County in MD it seems although in that area, abuse stems from successful, educated black men who do work. But still. The Prince George County domestic abuse cases within black families sounds eerily 'Stepford Wives'-ish to me because the cases going to the police and going to court are far too concentrated in that county it sounds like as if they'd like to compete with Baltimore for 'Worst Area on The East Coast To Live In'!
Sounds preposterous to me. I will never understand the mind-sets of women who don't want to throw black men in jail who deserve jail time due to their actions and who would rather live in a war zone than fight off those who would destroy them at every turn so...I don't know.
Greetings, AK!
ReplyDeleteYes, it's absolutely insane. But this is the logical end outcome of most Black women holding onto the "nothing but a Black man" mindset within the context of an ever-dwindling supply of Black men.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija: As I alluded to earlier, newly escaped & freed slaves had no control over the fact that their children during slavery were born out of wedlock; or that they were living with people without being legally married.
ReplyDeleteThese circumstances did not reflect upon their honor; they had no choice in these matters. However, the life choices they made after freedom did reflect upon them. This is why so many of our escaped/newly freed ancestors rushed to have legally recorded marriages. They cleaned up these "shacking" situations as soon as they could do so.
The disgrace is that we've gone backwards. Now that legitimate marriage is available to us, we have gone back to the out of wedlock "stud horse" and "broodmare" lifestyle that our people were forced to live through during slavery.
I have said this to myself literally loads of times that even during slavery when the slaves picked jumping the broom as their 'wedding ceremony' and the way for them to be married because they weren't seen as human enough even if their mastsers did allow them to attend church or atleast stay outside for the semon.
Those slaves knew the importance of being married with children and probably hated that they had no choice officially in the matter just because they were seen as animals but they still didn't care. THEY wanted to find a way to validate their relationship and the children between them, children that they wouldn't even see again if somebody was re-sold at the drop of a hat, for themselves and they did this.
And I just said to myself 'And look at NOW'! LOL Some black people just don't seem to care that blacks at one time wanted marriage and its implied value and came up with the closest ceremony they could find, while today they would rather pass on from person to person and have illegitimate kids all over the place. I'm scared of incest!
Let's just come on out with it OK? I am one of those bastards. In no way would Shavonne EVER be without company there which I find sad and a true shame. An actual shame I mean.
My own father wouldn't recognise me if I bumped into him around the corner and vice versa, and he's out of luck in case of how spare kidneys & bone marrow goes because he never got to know me even though my parents were dating and knew each others' families.
I don't like seeing that other black people especially of younger generations have been going through the exact same situation as me, I think as time goes by things should be improving since slavery and Jim Crow not heading backwards.
I'll never really understand how things got this point after the Harlem Renaissance period of the 30s & the blacks moving from the South to the North when so many black people seemed to want to start on the path to doing well with artists, writers and intelligentsia coming out of the 'black community' and marriage for them came without question to the way things carried on till now.
Greetings, AK!
ReplyDeleteThat's the thing that gets me: The SLAVES knew better than to do what we're currently doing!
Oh yes, this was another reason folks were angry with Bill Cosby's comments. If I remember correctly, he made a sarcastic comment about "needing a DNA card to figure out who you're making love to." [i.e., with all these OOW births, for all you know you could be having sex with a parent or sibling!]
Part of how we turn this around is by loudly rejecting & denouncing the "stud horse" and "broodmare" lifestyle. As you are doing. {raised fist salute}
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
PioneerValleyWoman: And it is also about misunderstanding who the real victims are in these situations. Is it the black man or the black woman? Too many black women (and black men who support abusers) see the black men as the victims. They are victims of the white racist infrastructure, and so they excuse their victimization of black women and children. Told that they are "strong," they think they should be able to handle the abuse and help him heal.
ReplyDeleteTHAT whole ongoing attitude of certain blacks I have always hated for the longest right there. Why do they assume that only the black men are victims of the white racial infrastructure and hierarchy? I cannot stand to hear so many black men say that the racism black men received has always been worse than whatever treatment black women received during slavery and John Crow era times.
It's like Hello? Rape? Seeing your children beaten and sold down the street to a new massa never to see them again? Being forced to sleep with men you don't even know because your a breeding machine and being forced to sleep with massa or his relatives?
I cannot stomach the mind-sets of such selfish, self-absorbed black men who insist and want you to insist with them that only THEY have ever experienced the worst of anything.
It's like they think that black women used to sit outside in the lawn parties as Scarlett O'Hara's guests down in Georgia never required to serve anybody & with the black women saying to each other 'Hmm? I wonder what the men are doing? I have no clue!'
I cannot stand when black men of that ilk say things like 'White men promoted you all and demoted us'. The reason why black women were picked for a lot of work is for the same reason that before the late 20th century even white women without money had to work like dogs within their own households. A lot was put onto women without rich husbands and fathers in general. But slave women & even the ex-slaves had 10 times thrown upon them but you'd call that a promotion?
I wonder if such black men ever see that they really want to be treated like women in the traditional, old-fashioned sense and not like men if they always demand, require or ask for women to be their own body armour and mental armour against everything that life throws their way. And then they complain about manly, 'emasculating' black women?
How can they even ask how those roles got swapped around when they've instrumental to that?
Khadija thanks for the salute and I always salute you and the hard work you, Lisa and Evia have contributed to on your blogs!
ReplyDeleteAK:
ReplyDeleteIt's like Hello? Rape? Seeing your children beaten and sold down the street to a new massa never to see them again? Being forced to sleep with men you don't even know because your a breeding machine and being forced to sleep with massa or his relatives?
My reply:
But you're forgetting, that we apparently "consented" to the sex, so that we could get favors, while the black man toiled away and suffered.
As though black women under slavery could really consent to anything, and as though any "favors" were meaningful in the whole scope of things.
This is how it seems that generations of black women have been gotten over on. They have been guilt-tripped, and they did not seem to have the critical thinking skills to reply!
They let black men attack them for white men's apparent favoritism, as though black women were responsible for the racist power structure, thus contributing, if anything, to disunity, as some black men were bent on subjugating black women for their apparent "superior status."
Think of some black responses to the Moynihan Report, that black women were "strong," and so they had to be put in their place. Thus, the true "divide and conquer" strategy resulted in some black men seeing black women as the enemy.
The white supremacists must have been howling, because under their patriarchal regimes, women are not the enemy. They are partners in united struggle, notwithstanding any internal debates about the nature of that relationships (the feminist movement). But when it comes to understanding and dealing with outsiders, they know what time it is and they know who the enemy is.
How can they even ask how those roles got swapped around when they've instrumental to that?
ReplyDeleteI'm SO glad that you're thinking critically and asking these questions!!
The bottom line is that very few people are going to give up their privileges without a fight, no matter how unfair you show them they're being. People, whether they're racist white folks or sexist black men are going to always find a reason why they should keep their privileges. Therefore sexist bm are going to hang on with all of their might to their argument that the po' bm got it worse during slavery and Jim Crow. Even if you blow that argument to pieces, they will find another one to replace it. It's all about privileges. To accept your argument that it's **unfair of them to do this** would mean that bm would have to give up the privileges they derive from bw.
Bw are going to just have to talk with their pocketbook and their feet. There's nothing that gets people attention--and lets them know you're not tolerating it anymore--than talking with one or both of those.
Evia said:
ReplyDelete"Therefore sexist bm are going to hang on with all of their might to their argument that the po' bm got it worse during slavery and Jim Crow. Even if you blow that argument to pieces, they will find another one to replace it. It's all about privileges."
That is very disturbing!
But you're forgetting, that we apparently "consented" to the sex, so that we could get favors, while the black man toiled away and suffered.
ReplyDeleteAs though black women under slavery could really consent to anything, and as though any "favors" were meaningful in the whole scope of things.
Exactly! How is it that bw have allowed bm to frame RAPE as consensual sex for favors???? Under the system of chattel slavery and its aftermath, how could any bw OBJECT to sex? Black females can't help that we are females and thus had anatomies that made heterosexual wm want to penetrate us. I'm just SMH at the nonsense that so many bw have ALLOWED bm to perpetrate against us!!!!
Sometimes, when I read this specious argument of bm, I begin to wonder whether these bm are **jealous** that most wm preferred to rape black females, and not black males. LOL! Since I've been doing the IR marriage blog, I've constantly heard from bm who complain that "Bw had access to wm for hundreds of year whereas bm didn't get access to ww until recently," as if to say that bw should understand why some bm seem to crave ww and support their cravings. These men seem to be saying they were **deprived** of something, that ACCESS to white folks--even if we were being savagely penetrated--was better than not getting access to whites at all. These bm seem to think that black girls and women being raped by wm was a privilege for blackwomanhood!!!
Y'all can tell me whether I'm interpreting this complaint of theirs correctly.
Evia:
ReplyDeleteSometimes, when I read this specious argument of bm, I begin to wonder whether these bm are **jealous** that most wm preferred to rape black females, and not black males. LOL!
My reply:
You are onto something. When one reads African American accounts from the time period, under slavery and Reconstruction, black men at the time spoke of black women's contact with white men in light of the ways in which they thought black women were vulnerable, and they were vulnerable, because they could not protect black women and girls. At the same time, they spoke of how black men were also vulnerable because white men and women could routinely accuse black men of raping a white woman in order to attack and lynch them.
But black men and women did not see themselves as having a sweepstakes for suffering, and black men and women saw themselves as being in a true community, united by race with the purpose of uplifting as Pap Singleton's story explained.
This notion of black women benefiting under slavery is a recent argument, dating back to the pasat 40 years, by the black nationalist types arguing especially in the wake of the Moynihan report that black women needed to "tone things down" so that the men could be patriarchs...the language of the pathological black families headed by matriarchs, that black women could get jobs when black men could not, etc., etc.
Although the Moyhnihan report spoke about opening up opportunities for black men, the argument became that black women were taking away opportunities from them once black women became more and more successful.
Rather than talk about the power structure that created the basis of a "divide and conquer" mentality of seemingly preferring black women on the job than black men, they attacked black women.
Yet, it would be interesting to see in the late 1960s, early 1970s, who was in college more and in professional jobs more, I wonder whether the evidence will prove the argument that black women took jobs away from black men.
Fast forward to the late 1970s and beyond, the question would be, what types of jobs were getting lost and what types of jobs saw gains. Blue collar men across the board suffered, not just black men. More jobs became available in white and pink collar sectors for women and those with college degrees.
So more women tend to go to college now, because they can't make the same wages an average working class man can make with only a high school education.
Does that mean more black women in college now take opportunities away from black men? I don't think so. There is evidence girls in general, white as well as black, get better grades in school, so of course, they should advance, and they are, going to college in greater numbers. They should not feel guilty or responsible for young men not doing as well in school and going on to college as well.
Evia: Exactly! How is it that bw have allowed bm to frame RAPE as consensual sex for favors???? Under the system of chattel slavery and its aftermath, how could any bw OBJECT to sex? Black females can't help that we are females and thus had anatomies that made heterosexual wm want to penetrate us. I'm just SMH at the nonsense that so many bw have ALLOWED bm to perpetrate against us!!!!
ReplyDeleteYes Evia I have always been mad at the black women just lying down and taking this just because the men acting this way are black.
And as for the rest of what you said, I have to agree with you and I'm not just saying this.
I can't believe a black man would open his mouth and say that the access to white men that black women had for 400 years before the late 20th century was good access and perfectly fine.
But I guess black men really did internalize the tripe that says that a 'black woman cannot be raped'. Gosh it's NOT just the rednecks who want to stay back in the Gone With The Wind times at all!
Damn!
ReplyDeleteWell, Evia, you wouldn't be far off.
I was once in group therapy with a young white woman from somewhere in Virginia. There was a lot of incest in the family and she said it went on right under the mother's nose.
But this girl also had a sister whom the father never raped. Eventually they were both taken away from their parents (although I can't remember if it was due to neglect or the rape). They were kept together by the state but every home they went to, the one young lady who was raped by the father would end up getting kicked out of for stealing or other behavioral issues. It turned out her sister (the one who was not raped by the father) was doing most of these things and having her sister blamed for it. Eventually she caught on to what her sister was doing, confronted her on it, and found out that her sister had been JEALOUS.
She wasn't jealous of the fact that her sister was raped but because she interpreted the rape as an act of love and affection. And she also interpreted the mother's crying (which the mother did whenever her husband found her way into her bedroom) as a sign of her mother being jealous of her daughter as well.
(The reason I remember that her sister was not jealous of the fact that she was raped is because when she first told her story, many of the other girls started saying things like, "Your sister is jealous of you because your father raped you. She's stupid." Then the therapist had to break it down for us in terms of what was missing from their home (love & affection). Then she showed us how the sister could view the rapes as as act of love and affection, because the rapes were never violent -and by the mother not interfering but instead crying, she was receiving many mixed signals.
If we take away the family I just spoke about and add the AA men and women, I can see your scenario being possible and highly likely.
But this is where things does not make sense to me. People like Khadija and yourself have admitted that the AA men of today are nothing like old school black men. They are a weaker, watered down, version -if that. So, if that is the truth when did this thinking take root in AA men minds? Was it always there? But the old school men buried it and made moves despite having these thoughts?
Because the truth is AA people in general, are using excuses for their collective and individual failure that not even (as Khadija already mentioned) slaves used. Slaves did much more with much less, right? Even after slavery. If that is true, than your scenario would not be plausible (not saying this is the case) because something like the thinking you described take place during the conditions (slavery) and immediately after the conditions (freedom) It doesn't wait for decades to show itself, or maybe it does.
So, my question is what brought these feelings to the forefront in the last 60 years?
Okay, I think I may have my answer.
ReplyDeleteKhadija on another post said the following, "We've become Western in many ways over the centuries of being here; but not completely Western in our thinking.
That is, up until the age of assimilation starting in the 1960s. We've learned how to adopt extremely dysfunctional White practices like being serial killers, murdering one's parents, and a refusal to discipline our children. Things that we simply never did before as a people."
Could this be when that "jealousy" issue came into play? When no matter how hard we tried to assimilate, we could not completely do so?
I'm reminded of something a friend told me. One of my best friends is a nurse. This is one of her work stories from the early 1980s:
ReplyDeleteShe had helped in the delivery of a baby for a married White couple. She noticed that the wife looked very nervous after she was handed her brand new baby. As soon as her husband left the room, the wife asked my friend to come close. She whispered the following question into my friend's ear, "Does my baby look Black?"
After being caught off guard, my friend told her that she couldn't tell with a newborn. And that some light-skinned Black babies get darker as they get older.
I guess this particular wife had been busy with extracurricular activites in addition to her husband. Oh, well.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@Pioneer Valley Woman
ReplyDeleteI find your commentary very informative, and interesting. When I sit back, and reflect--it feels as if black men have declared war on black women?
Thanks for sharing the information about the Moynihan report--I had no idea black nationalist groups were preaching this madness? I can't believe that no matter what a black woman does we are the first to blame for everything that has or does go wrong with black men and black children--as if we fertilize our own egg!
I'm sure the true white supremacist are sitting back in laughter because black women have been black mens allies even when they did not deserve our support. IMO.
WOW!
Okay... Now I'm rethinking Khadija's earlier points about black women who have raised boys that think, and act on this belief?
I'm trying to evaluate my own parenting skills, and my own marriage with to an WAA in light of this?
Peace
pioneervalleywoman: And yet, they were applying a model of white female privilege (and modes of empowerment) to black women, which we know is bogus.
ReplyDeleteI understand what you typed there. It's like bm never had any awareness at all that a bw in history ever went through any kind of deep damage and pain be it physical or psychological.
And about this awareness that bm lack, they could either choose not to acknowledge it, or just be in a trained mental fog of self-absorption too. Which ever!
Sister Seeking:
ReplyDeleteOkay... Now I'm rethinking Khadija's earlier points about black women who have raised boys that think, and act on this belief?
My reply:
I don't think it comes exclusively from the mothers. Don't forget too, that other boys and older men exert an influence too. I'm thinking of it in this context. Are black fathers, uncles, cousins and older black brothers teaching this in the home? Once a young man becomes of high school and college age, don't forget the influence of the peer group and the educational system!
I can speak in particular to college-level teaching, because this is where I have the most experience. Many students take African-American studies type classes, and that is where a lot of that type of perspective can be conveyed, especially if the faculty come out of the black nationalist type tradition.
It is also one location where they can also find faculty from overseas, ie., African faculty who aim to tell them that African culture is more legitimate than American culture. So I would tell anyone of college age who is considering these types of programs, whether as classes or not, to look into the faculty. What do they teach? What is their background? What have they written?
Some great texts written by black women exploring some of what I have written here, black women's conflicts with black nationalism in the 1960s and 1970s: Michele Wallace, Black Macho and the Myth of the Superwoman and Jill Nelson, Straight No Chaser.
Thanks Pioneer Valley Woman!
ReplyDeleteI'll add t hose books on my amazon wish list for next year.
I don't agree that "running works." Running is what BP did at the end of segregation. They ran away from other BP because they thought that they were now free to live amongst the white folks. Then, of course, they learned a bit about "white flight." That created areas like Roseland(where Blair Holt was killed). Areas like Bronzeville, which was once all Black, had BP from all walks of life living there. However, when BP were "able" to "run" after integration, they left these communities free of any role models. And that's helped sustain crime in areas like Roseland.
ReplyDeleteRunning from the South to the North didn't help us. It crowded us in Northern slum cities with de facto segregation and racism. The West was one of the most violent areas for Black folks. Ever heard of the Tulsa Race Riot?
Finally, what about those who simply don't have the resources to run? The commenter who said something about not understand why people stay in these places sounded like some kind of racist white person. Do people honestly think that everyone who lives in an impoverished neighborhood WANTS to be there? Do people actually believe that many wouldn't move if they could? Wow.
I agree with all the problems you've stated about the BC (especially about the fake religiosity, ugh), but I doubt "running" away from this problem will solve anything.
Greetings, Bianca!
ReplyDeleteI feel like I've already responded to the points you've brought up in my replies to earlier commenters. Let me repeat some of this:
1-Po' Black folks somehow manage to pick up & relocate to go to places that pay out larger public aid benefits.
2-This lets us know that po' Black folks really CAN accomplish things that they set their minds to do.
3-If po' Black folks are sitting around living in hellholes, it's because they choose to passively wait for somebody else to lead them out by the hand. Which we all know will not happen. It's because they aren't being as creative & assertive as they are in pursuit of a larger public aid handout.
4-When I returned after college to my childhood neighborhood, it had been invaded by Section 8 recipients. They brought their crime & violence with them. Each New Year's Eve, I had to sit in my basement to avoid being hit by a random bullet.
This is because the Section 8 Negroes have a habit of firing volleys of gunfire in "celebration" of New Year's Eve. People have been wounded by stray, and not so stray, bullets. Sometimes they deliberately shoot into their neighbors' homes. The shooting starts earlier each year.
5-Now that I ran & relocated, I don't have to hide in my basement each New Year's Eve. I also don't have to listen to the constant wail of sirens. It has been nice to be able to be comfortable in my own home. So, running has worked very well for me.
6-Do you notice that you had to reach back almost 90 years to find a mass White atrocity where Black folks were injured & killed in volume? The Tulsa Race Riot was in 1921. Blair Holt was murdered last year. There are countless Blair Holts being shot down, IN VOLUME, in Black residential areas right now.
Also, leaving the South worked. It worked out very well for my grandfather who did not have to live in the shadow of lynchings anymore.
7-God respects free will; and so do I. This means that Black folks who are passively waiting for somebody to take them by the hand, and lead them out of their hellholes are free to stay and die. Black folks who are emotionally invested in finding countless "reasons" why they "can't" escape are free to stay and die.
8-Those of us who don't want to die before our time, and don't want our children to die before their time, will find ways to escape.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
1. Ok...Section 8 and public housing are a lot easier to obtain than a mortgage or a house...I don't think that proves much, but ok.
ReplyDelete3. I don't think I'll respond to the rest of your opinions on poor Black folks because we obviously have an entirely different view. I don't think they're angels, but wow... I understand the principle of "movin on up." My mother did exactly that with her life. But yet, I've never heard her speak of the folks that she left in the projects like this. In fact, she dedicated her life to helping them. Different strokes for different folks.
4. I live in an upper-middle class Black neighborhood with very little crime...folks shoot all night on NYE, July 4th, and whatever other holiday. When I went away to school, the white folks did it too.
5. Does running "work" for individuals? Sure. I suppose I'm the kind who looks at the bigger picture though. If its not helping to solve the overall problem, its not really a solution to me. Just a fix.
6. You spoke of Blacks migrating from the South in the years after slavery and that's why I brought up an event that happened in the years after slavery. But if we wanna talk about white folks and what they've done lately, I'd still have plenty to say.
http://www.colorofchange.org/nation/?id=1949-98645
My people moved from the South to the North during the Great Migration also. My point was, while they left the night riders behind, there was certainly not a safe place waiting for them up North. My great-grandmother always swore she felt much safer in the South than the big northern city she moved to.
8. If you have the resources to not live in a crime-ridden neighborhood, by all means, "escape." I'm sure once you leave there you'll never be in danger ever again.(?)
Welcome back, Bianca!
ReplyDeleteToo many of us have a romanticized, abstract view of the Black poor & the Black underclass. [Which are 2 separate demographic categories that we confuse & conflate.]
Let me point out [for those who don't already know]that I work with, and HELP, the poor & the underclass everyday. That's why I went into indigent defense work. That's why I don't have any illusions about what folks are really all about.
Many of us have parents who grew up poor. Because of that, we assume that modern-day poor & underclass Black folks are like our parents who were strivers who worked their way out of poverty.
NO, the people left behind (in our parents age group) are generally NOT like our parents. Not at all. The current day generation of Black poor are even less like our parents who worked their way out.
If you're shocked by what I'm saying here, you'll really be appalled at my post from 9/25/08, Reality Check: What the Black Underclass is REALLY All About.! LOL! Too often, when discussing the Black poor & underclass, we allow ideology to replace reality. This is costing us Black lives.
Yes. Running works for individuals. Individuals who then go on to raise families under greatly improved circumstances. Let's not forget that.
Here is what's perplexing (and somewhat annoying) me about these "We can't run" & "We shouldn't run" & "I'm looking at the so-called 'bigger picture' & running won't solve the 'bigger problem'" arguments:
Where is YOUR "bigger picture" solution?
Where has it been?
What IS the solution?
How much longer should we wait for a "big picture" solution?
You haven't proposed any better ideas than running for our lives, but yet you're pooh-poohing the idea of running? What's that about? I'd really like to know. I don't understand that. What is it that you want us to do as conditions get more & more deadly in Black residential areas? [As more & more lives are lost.]
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Bianca,
ReplyDeleteUpon further reflection, here's what I find so troubling about all the naysayer arguments:
1-Almost nobody is putting forth any alternative, or competing vision for our physical survival. The focus seems to be on "proving" why escape to a better life is impossible; NOT on any sort of creative problem-solving.
2-The few naysayers that do have a competing vision basically have a FAILED vision---more of the same of what we've been doing for decades (looking for the government, Whites, somebody else to step in & solve our internal rot with "services").
3-There also seems to be a negative, Borg-like sort of communalism going on, as well. It's as if it's not appropriate for any of us to escape hellish conditions unless & until the other 35-40 million of us agree.
4-The naysayers also often try to assert that it's AS dangerous to live in non-Black areas. Come on, now. Does anybody sincerely believe that White women are living under Dunbar Village-type conditions?
So, I'm asking you again---what would you have us do? What is your "bigger solution" that is so much more preferable than individual "fixes"?
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@Khadija
ReplyDeleteSalaam sister:
My husband ,and I live in a multi-racial working class neighborhood.
Many Hispanic, Indian, Native America, few whites, and few blacks live in our residential area. We have both town homes and single family homes in our area.
"Some" African Americans that have relocated from very poor counties or states came here to get away from the crime in say: Baltimore, Philly Jersey, and sections of NY.
Before going back to work I used to babysit for a single mom of two children. She had moved here from the Bronx. She had managed to get a two year degree, save up money, and buy a car in just ONE year. She told me that EVERYONE--family and friends-- discouraged her from coming to Virginia.
I met her before we bought our home when we were living in an apartment community that was primarily AA. My husband and I hated it there... But we saved up our money, and got our credit straight so we could get out.
When she moved here her children's behaviour, grades, and emotional well being improved.
She broke down in tears, and went into a "holy ghost" moment just over how clean the apartments were, and how clean the play ground areas were.
She told me that her 12 year daughter was constantly being sexually harassed. She told me EVERY place they went they couldn't even WALK INTO THEIR OWN apartment building with out being called b-yatch; with out being touched and frisked; and with out being asked for money.
Every time I saw that woman she was crying tears of JOY because she no longer had to live that way. She was grateful for things you and I take advantage of.
Heck, she was grateful for libraries that didn't have dozens of homeless people or people looking at porn on the computers--and that their working computers.
I'm NEVER knocking a fellow black woman especially a woman who is responsible for children--I'm not knocking them from running away from bad areas.
The last time I saw her she was engaged to a brotha from Barbados I believe.
Peace
Hello there, Sister Seeking/Miriam!
ReplyDeleteI praise God that the woman you mentioned ignored the naysayers (actually, in her case, they sound like haters/crabs in a barrel) and escaped with her children!
I think the naysayers come in 2 basic categories:
1-Jealous, lazy, passive crabs in a barrel; which I suspect is the majority of the modern Black poor. This is why I say that our parents, etc. who worked their way out of the slums are NOT like the people they left behind.
The left-behinds are basically: (1)passively waiting for somebody else to rescue them; and/or (2) too lazy to take advantage of whatever opportunities exist; and/or (3) not smart enough to take advantage of whatever opportunities exist.
2-Ideological naysayers. People who are invested in: (1) making excuses for Black failure; and/or (2) have very little actual exposure to the Black poor/underclass (which is why they tend to have a romanticized, nostalgic view of them); and/or (3) have unwittingly become numbed to the rising numbers of Black casualties. How else can people talk this stuff while our people are being killed IN VOLUME?
I don't understand Type #2 Naysayers. [There's no need to understand Type #1 Naysayers.] If they had a better idea, a competing vision, then I could understand their assertions.
I'm particularly troubled by the "bigger picture" arguments that Type #2 Naysayers make. To me, there is NO "bigger picture" than my own life! I would expect others to feel the same way about their lives, and the lives of their children.
I believe that it's worthwhile to save one life at a time!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello Khadija and All,
ReplyDelete"3-There also seems to be a negative, Borg-like sort of communalism going on, as well. It's as if it's not appropriate for any of us to escape hellish conditions unless & until the other 35-40 million of us agree."
This seems to be common when dealing with any issue among BP I think. I have had a few brushes as of late with what I believe are Black Nationalist women (I don't know if they are or not, but I just kind of gathered that- all I wanted to do was get my natural hair styled not hairstyle and lecture) and their way of thinking was so frightening to me - as if we are all the same, think the same, having the experience, and we should all be lock step as we move into the future - supporting some half cocked crazy scheme for empowerment.
4-The naysayers also often try to assert that it's AS dangerous to live in non-Black areas. Come on, now. Does anybody sincerely believe that White women are living under Dunbar Village-type conditions?
This is so on point. I have been talking to a few friends/associates recently who live in the LA area and I asked about some neighborhoods. I told them that one neighborhood I visited was really pretty and close to the beach, but I saw on a relocation website that some people felt it was dangerous there at night.
The response from my associates- its dangerous everywhere. Which I know is not true bc when I lived in NOCAL my neighborhood was so safe that I could go walking on the shoreline at 2-3am and not be bothered. I would see others walking at that time in the morning and we would speak and keep going. There were cops that would pass through.
There were times when I was so tired that I would fall asleep with my windows open at night (to let in the breeze) or my back door unlocked (sometimes I forgot) and wouldn't be disturbed.
When I came back home to care for my mom when she got ill I would open the windows and I thought she was having another coronary bc she was so fearful that someone would try to break in even though there are screens and bars on her windows.
But I have been thinking of this post a lot. I have been researching nice places and I am having such a challenge making up my mind. I just know that when I lived in NOCAL I was so spoiled. I really realize that now. There were amenities in that community - here at my moms house I can't get a pizza delivered, but there I could get my groceries delivered for 4.95. Being there I kind of forgot what it was like back here so when I came back it was a shock to my system.
The thing is I know educated BP who aren't connecting the dots. I don't know why someone would defend living in a bad, dangerous, or limiting environment.
Hello there, Aphrodite!
ReplyDeleteI chuckled when you said the following: "...all I wanted to do was get my natural hair styled not hairstyle and lecture." It reminded me of how my mother is quick to admonish the lecturing type of service provider/cashier with, "I didn't come here for a lesson!"
I'm beginning to think that some of us say these things because we are under the mistaken impression that these notions ("stick with 'our own'" & "wait for a 'bigger picture' solution that will solve the problem for all 40 million of us", etc.) constitute "Black consciousness."
I also noticed some other underlying assumptions in Bianca's later comment.
She raised what was supposed to be a trump card----that her mother is trying to help the Black poor; and by implication, I'm NOT. Bianca said that her mother "dedicated her life to helping them. Different strokes for different folks."
How did I get placed into the "strokes different from/other than helping [poor]Black folks" category? Is it because I feel that they are grown adults who can function if they want to? Is it because I don't make excuses for them?
It's interesting. I get hit with this sort of assumption a lot when discussing these sorts of things in settings where people don't know what I do for a living. They then discover that it's hard to win a "Blacker than thou" contest with me:
1-I dedicated my career (up to this point) to helping the Black poor.
2-I therefore have MUCH more contact with VOLUMES of the Black poor/underclass than many of the "Blacker than thou" crowd.
3-I'm facing the current difficulties of having a non-Western, Muslim name in this post 9-11 country; while most of the "Blacker than thou" crowd still have the typical "slave names." A lot of them only use African or other non-Western names as private nicknames.
These people almost NEVER make the public commitment by legally adopting these non-Western codenames. I got my J.D. and began my legal career WITH my Muslim name 18 years ago.
Basically, these people are "Blacker than thou" ONLY when it won't cost them anything----NOT at work; NOT when interviewing for a job, etc. Hmmph.
I think I'll do a post asking "What is Black consciousness in the current era?"
Yes, living conditions ARE different, and usually dramatically BETTER outside of Black residential areas. Aphrodite, I would encourage you to escape as soon as possible!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"She raised what was supposed to be a trump card----that her mother is trying to help the Black poor; and by implication, I'm NOT. Bianca said that her mother "dedicated her life to helping them. Different strokes for different folks."
ReplyDeleteHow did I get placed into the "strokes different from/other than helping [poor]Black folks" category? Is it because I feel that they are grown adults who can function if they want to? Is it because I don't make excuses for them?"
I saw this too, but I just excused it as pointless rambling.
Anyone who has read your blog can gather that you are a brilliant advocate and activist without even delving into your personal history offline.
Also maybe Bianca's thinking is an example of the unspoken contract/orphaned precepts that I believe Rev Lisa and Halima have mentioned. That middle class blacks owe poor blacks - that they are responsible for them in some way.
Hello there, Aphrodite!
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it. Yes, I agree that much of this type of thinking involves the "orphaned precepts" that Halima explained so elegantly. With the lopsided contracts that Lisa has discussed thrown in as well.
Lisa and others have thoroughly covered the contract angle. We might need to have a separate conversation just about some of these precepts. There are so many of these [now-dysfunctional] orphaned precepts that we seem to be following.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE!!!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.