Tuesday, June 23, 2009

A Heartfelt And Public "Thank You" To Evia For Her Latest Blog Post

As regular readers know, I'm a firm believer in the importance of thankfulness; and expressing gratitude to those who have helped us along our paths. I just stopped by Evia's blog, and I was truly touched by her latest blog post. Ladies, I strongly urge you to read it also. http://www.blackfemaleinterracialmarriage.com/2009/06/living-well-notes-clarification.html

Anyway, what struck me while reading this post was how much my quality of life improved as a result of pondering her essays, and those of other pioneer Black female empowerment bloggers.

One of God's blessings is that He often makes it easy to forget negative circumstances after they have improved. It's a blessing that memories fade. While reading, I was shocked to realize how much stress and strain was lifted off of me after I stopped assuming the responsibility for "saving alla our people." I had forgotten how stressful all of that was.

I used to be the type of African-American woman who was preoccupied with "saving alla our people." What I didn't realize while I was still in my Black Nationalist trance was that "saving alla our people" is a MAN'S role. It's not my function as a woman to rescue men and the community at large. It didn't occur to me that to even make such an attempt was totally out of divine order, with a price to pay as a consequence of being out of order.

After I let go of that "save alla our people" trickbag, I discovered how it's so much more pleasant for a woman to live and function as . . . a . . . woman. As opposed to trying to carry burdens that should be carried by men.

Enjoying the pleasures of the feminine role became my new "norm," and I had totally forgotten how much stress was lifted off of me as a result of thinking about the points Evia and other pioneers raised. Memories fade.

Memories fade but, when reminded, my thankfulness does not. One of the most important lessons my parents taught me is to thank the people who help you. And to thank them again. And to pray for them whenever you remember what they did for you. I sent the following email to Evia. I'm repeating it here to publicly express my thanks for all of the work that she has done over the past few years.

"Hello there, Evia!

{excited waving}

This is just a note to say a loud and heartfelt "THANK YOU" for your latest post. I know how your essays helped me at a point of confusion a couple of years ago; and I know that your essays continue to help other disoriented AA women. May God bless you for your work.

I read through the notes you published and shook my head at the level of confusion that exists among so many of us. Like you said, in a minute these same confused AA women will be hating on the African women who don't have our general hangups about marrying WELL with whoever will do the best by them and their future children.

Your words really spoke to me because I used to be one of those "save alla our people" AA women. That is, until I snapped out of my trance a few years back. I've been amazed at how much mental stress and strain I eliminated from my life just by that one decision---the decision to no longer assume responsibility for the fate of our people. As you've said over and over again, that's a man's job. I'm still saddened as any normal human being would be by the atrocious news stories coming out of Black residential areas. But the stories don't linger on my heart or mind anymore.

I'm free of all that. I always had the option to be free of all that. Previously, I was just too confused to see or exercise the option to be free.

I can't thank you and the other pioneers enough for helping me see all of this. Again, THANK YOU and may God bless you and yours!

Peace and blessings,
Khadija"

65 comments:

Delishmish said...

Hear Hear Khadija...

Is that not one of her more powerful pieces?...it's hard to pick really, but this one I took in word by word.

I especially LOVE her phrase "woman's hat."....I love to wear my woman's hat. I "put it on" every morning.......I enjoy being a woman. I really do! I also enjoy having a man do the little things that I expect, even from one who is a stranger, like holding the door open for me. I always thank them graciously.

One thing that IS a little harder for me is to smile continuously...lol. Now I assure you all, I am a most agreeable looking person even without that grin on my face. I know she is not suggesting we grin like a crazy person all day long. I think (and please do correct me if I am wrong E)I have to be more aware of the expressions on my face. They show "easily" when I am displeased...lol...Likewise, they show when I am happy...most of the time I am happy, because I believe in the positive mind / positive life connection.

One thing I will probably NEVER embrace though is when a strange man tells me to SMILE....ugh. I have a variety of responses, few of which are pleasant, and none bear repeating in this lovely forum...

but that's just me...

:-)

PS..
I have practiced a half smile, without my pearly whites showing. It is accompanied by a pleasant nod...and as much as I dislike Tyra..I thinks she may be onto something when she says "smile with your eyes" when she tortures the "contestants" on her "show."...so there it is, a half smile, a nod, and I smile with my eyes. It seems to work.(And I don't have to be grinning like a fool all day long)

Southland Diva said...

There are a few blogs I read regularly. You and Evia are on that short list. I thank you both for your call-to-action for AA women to wake up and implement self care and self control in their lives!! Loving yourself and being about the business of taking care of yourself is not about hating others. It's about loving Your Self.

Besides, the only behavior you can change is your own.

Peace, love, and much gratitude to all my online teachers.

C4L said...

Khadija,

We are >>righthere<< on Evia's blog.

I jumped off that train 15 years ago. I met a quality man and have been his queen ever since.

I enjoy being a woman and I no longer play the "gotta be strong" role. It took years off my face and body. I laugh more, love more and most of all I can laugh at myself without taking everything so seriously.

BTW: I have been away for a while (vacation, work, etc.) but look forward to engaging in more stimulating discussions on your blog

Love, Peace, Health and Prosperity (LPHAP)

C4L

Khadija said...

Delishmish,

You said, "Is that not one of her more powerful pieces?...it's hard to pick really, but this one I took in word by word."-

Yes, it is. And (for those who listen) there are so many different bits of literally LIFE-SAVING thoughts.

For one example, note the part where she talked about how many AA women have made strife (aka "the struggle") a central part of their lives. When one stops to think about it, one can see that this is utterly insane and life-damaging.

AA women and NOT the males are the ones on the front lines of all protest/civil rights/"take it to the streets" organizations. WE are the majority of footsoldiers for all of these AA organizations (except for the Nation of Islam). This is upside down and backwards.

For another example, note the part where Evia contrasted the self-ENHANCING behaviors of many Asian women with the self-DEFEATING behaviors of many AA women. That part was particularly eye-opening.

Now that I think about it, NO other ethnic group of women on this planet goes around talking (much less shrieking) about how they would never date/marry a WM. No matter HOW much hostility some of them feel towards Whites/Europeans.

For example, consider Arab women who come from societies that are steeped in hatred/rage/contempt for the White West. Even THEY aren't running around loudtalking about how they would never date/marry a White, Western, Christian man! THEY have the common sense to keep whatever options they have as open as possible.
-

AA women need to take notes of how Asian women have positioned themselves on the global stage.
________________________

SouthlandDiva,

Thank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it. I'm just trying to "pay it forward." Also, I learn a lot from listening to you and the other readers.

SouthlandDiva, THANK YOU, and THANK YOU to all of the commenters who enrich these discussions with your participation!-
____________________

C4L,

I praise God that I jumped off of that "save alla our people" death train! Like I said in the post, I had forgotten how stressful all of that "struggle" and "struggling" for the so-called community was. *Smile*

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

Thank you, Khadija and to all of you!! Y'all are really just too kind. But as usual Khadija, pretty soon you'll be reminding me that I said this or that and I'll be saying "Hunh?" LOL!

I think that we all bring our unique piece to the table. That's really the power of our Higher Power shining through. I wish that we could see that and see how valuable we could all be to each other if we would only put all of our lil pieces together.

One thing that IS a little harder for me is to smile continuously...lol.

What?? Delish, you mean you don't grin like a Cheshire cat? :-)

Actually, I meant to just "be pleasant." I observe plenty bw who are stretched to the max and they're FAR from pleasant. They usually have a good reason not to be pleasant, but it only makes matters worse.

Actually, my message is NOT geared to lots of AA women because it would be dangerous for some of them to walk around looking pleasant, let alone smiling--in some of the places these women live or circulate. I lived in Harlem when I went to undergrad school and it would have been virtually an invitation to grope and sex me if I'd walked along 125th St. smiling or even looking pleasant. I adopted that NYC scowl, but even that didn't help much to keep the harassers away.

That was one reason why I had to leave NYC at a certain point. It can really change you into something you don't even like anymore. Believe me, the people you encounter in some parts of NYC can do that to you. Luckily for me, I COULD leave when I wanted to. Actually, it wasn't luck. It was my ex-husband that made that possible.

Lorraine said...

Khadija,

De Acuerdo. That is Spanish for "I agree." You are so on point here as is Evia. You actually compliment each other lol. I have learned so much from both of you over the past two years and thank you both for all you are doing just being yourselves. There are many truths revealed to those who will hear. You don't have to agree with every word, but you do have to hear what is being said. Again thank you.

PS: And I thought I was the informationbroker - lol

Khadija said...

Evia,

You're welcome! *Smile*

You said, "Actually, my message is NOT geared to lots of AA women because it would be dangerous for some of them to walk around looking pleasant, let alone smiling--in some of the places these women live or circulate. I lived in Harlem when I went to undergrad school and it would have been virtually an invitation to grope and sex me if I'd walked along 125th St. smiling or even looking pleasant. I adopted that NYC scowl, but even that didn't help much to keep the harassers away.

That was one reason why I had to leave NYC at a certain point."
-

And this is yet another reason why it's critical for AA women to flee these hellholes. And it's critical for AA women to find QUALITY men who would move heaven and earth to ensure that his woman and children NEVER live in such an environment! This is what QUALITY men who are protectors and providers do. They PROTECT their women and children by PROVIDING a safe home in a safe area for them.

It reminds me of a pitiful quote I read from an Afghan villager about what it was like to live under Taliban rule: He said, "They wouldn't even let the birds sing." I REFUSE to live like that. NO!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Lorraine,

Thank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it. Like I said earlier, I'm just trying to "pay it forward." Also, I learn a lot from listening to you and the other readers.

It's interesting. Evia's latest post brought home how much my thinking has changed over the past few years. I've mentioned how letting go of what should be AA MEN'S job of "saving alla our people" has drastically reduced the stress in my life. There have been other changes.

For example, I was literally in shock when the Dunbar Village Atrocity & Aftermath first snapped me out of my Black Nationalist trance. It's difficult to see a long-held worldview shatter into a thousand shards of glass. Since I was in shock, each demonstration of AA men's general apathy toward that crime against humanity would rub my nerves raw. I just couldn't believe it. All of this was how I felt before I carefully considered some of the points that Evia has raised in her essays.

By apathy, I'm referring to the blase reactions of the vast majority of the online Black males that were informed of this atrocity. Without missing a beat, almost all of them glossed over that shocking atrocity and went back to their drumbeat of whining about BM victimization.

Apathy was the general BM response with the exception of a very FEW true MEN and shining knights such as a BM blogger named Black SeaGoat.

And about MR. Black SeaGoat:

He was also instrumental in rescuing a hardworking young BW named Citoya Greenwood and her small daughter from the Dunbar Village Rape Camp. He was instrumental in finding alternative housing for Ms. Greenwood and her child. Let me note for the record that this REAL MAN who stood up and protected this BW and child is gay.

I was particularly shocked by the blase reactions of the so-called "conscious" and "activist" BM who frequented self-proclaimed "Black love" and "Black unity" blogs.

When Rev. Hot Comb/Press & Curl and the local NAACP chapter went so far as to make an appearance IN SUPPORT of some of the accused Dunbar Village Atrocity perpetrators, I was speechless.

Let me note that MR. Black SeaGoat subsequently launched a one-man, self-proclaimed counter-demonstration against Rev. Hot Comb over this issue when Rev. Hot Comb came to DC. May God continue to bless MR. Black SeaGoat.

Anyway, all of that was the very last straw for me. At that point, I saw that AA women and children are in grave danger. And the danger isn't just from the active BM predators. The danger is the permissive atmosphere created by the legions of so-called "decent brothers" who enable these demons to do what they do with impunity.

There are too few true MEN and knights such as MR. Black SeaGoat. There aren't enough of them to make a sustained difference in the AA collective.

I'm saying all of this to say that once I understood "what time it is" regarding most AA men, my reactions changed. Considering the points raised by various pioneer BW empowerment bloggers helped me understand "what time it is." They helped me see that there was/is NO rational reason for AA women to be emotionally caught up in AA men's thoughts, viewpoints, or doings.

Since the vast majority of AA men long since stopped functioning as MEN who are protectors and providers, they are TOTALLY irrelevant to our futures as women. Therefore, why spend any emotional/mental energy whatsoever on what general, random AA men think, feel, believe, or do? It doesn't matter. They don't matter in the overall scheme of things.

It would behoove more AA women to turn their attention elsewhere. To catch the hint from Asian women, and learn to find QUALITY men of any ethnicity to enhance their futures. There's a big world out there. More of us just need to step out of the Black social circle prison yard.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Delishmish said...

Goshgollydarn, you Ladies share so many pearls of wisdom here..and Lorraine (hellooooo...waving) is correct when she points out how well the two of you complement each other...what one does not say the other will say....

So a quick note (I am back from my evening jaunt and perhaps a tad tipsy after two orange blossom martinis..)...anyhoo..I am in NYC on a regular basis, and I really think it is a great city...magnificent really..BUT unfortunately, it is absolutely true...if you are just out and about, you will have to "run the gauntlet"..put on your "new york face" as it were...I don't "feel bad" (about moving seats or cars on the subway) if I am sitting near to or beside someone um, unpleasant shall I say. I have also shouted really loudly at someone, and I think HE then became afraid..probably thought I was a nutcase..but that is how you have to act at times, as though you were a crazy person..just so you can be left to your own devices..problem is, then everyone kind of thinks you are crazy and they are all afraid...lol. (but safety first...so that is ok)..New York is a fine city, but for me, it is best taken in smaller doses.

Ladies... (nodding and smiling with my eyes...lol)

Goodnight

Felicia said...

Greetings Khadija and I'm so happy you've experienced this metamophis of thinking thanks to Evia's blogging.

I always say it's important to have as many different voices preaching the same positive message in their own way because one never knows just which one of us is going to cause a BW to reexamine her previously held outdated beliefs.

We've all heard the phrase "it takes a village". Well... when it comes down to it, the only ones actually left in the village to any significant degree are black women (mothers, grandmothers, and sometimes great-grandmothers) trying to sustain and carry a people/"race" forward.

It can never be done because you're working AGAINST human nature in this twisted scenario. In the animal (and human) kingdom world wide it's the MALE who fights, supports the female, protects it's young (and the communities) from predators, etc...

It's the male who assumes leadership positions and is in the forefront to protect the group from assault from dangerous outsiders AND insiders that seek to destroy the peace and security of the group.

In the AA "community" as a whole (the exceptions are nice but they are still exceptions) you have an upside down situation where too many women are (unknowingly I believe) behaving like men, and too many men are acting like women and/or out of control narcissistic adolescents.

It's an unhealthy situation indeed.

And that's why all along I've been a proponent of black women INDIVIDUALLY saving themselves. Because the group is already too far gone for saving.

And it's been this way for at least a few decades now.

Plus, it's not an adults responsibility anyway to "save" another adult.

We all ONLY have control over ourselves and what becomes of our future anyway.

That takes enough time just dealing with ones OWN life.

Instead of morning the past, BW should look FORWARD to a bright future. A future that is of THEIR making.

We've all heard the saying "you reap what you sow".

Well, BW who've previously been misled/brainwashed by those blacks (men AND women) who NEVER had their best interests in mind to begin with, can LEARN
to sow HEALTHY non poisonous seeds which will produce a WONDERFUL abundant, plentiful and nutritious crop.

Those BW who are suffering these days are those who've sown an UNhealthy crop for themselves by listening to, believing in, caring about, and following the "good BW guidelines" set forth by the largely anti-BW so called "black community" spokespeople. The "gatekeepers".

Life is largely a MIND GAME. Therefore individual BW MUST be in control of their OWN minds and not let others think for them.

When you let others think for you, control your actions, determine who you see, love, and procreate with, you're a SLAVE.

My favorite quote in Evia's latest blog is this one...

"I'm a woman. My first responsibility is to myself and my children. If the bc is going to collapse because of that, then too bad."

Individual single BW who wish to marry well, and have children naturally, are going to have to be willing to let the "community" continue to collapse around them because it's not their problem to solve to begin with.

And NOTHING can stop the demise since the majority of black males do not desire to change and behave like men in other "races"/ethnicities who care about the health and survival of their groups/cultures.

Individual BW are going to have to save themselves.

And these blogs provide BW with the mental tools they need to do it.

Khadija said...

Felicia,

You said, "Well... when it comes down to it, the only ones actually left in the village to any significant degree are black women (mothers, grandmothers, and sometimes great-grandmothers) trying to sustain and carry a people/"race" forward.

It can never be done because you're working AGAINST human nature in this twisted scenario. In the animal (and human) kingdom world wide it's the MALE who fights, supports the female, protects it's young (and the communities) from predators, etc...
-

Exactly. In every other ethnic group, MEN are the ones who socialize and train boys into manhood. In every other ethnic group, MEN are the ones who police and check the behavior of other males. Just look at the recent example of how WM policed another WM (David Letterman) when he made the mistake of disrespecting a WW.

But as others have noted, we have a mass of AA males who are not, and will never be, men. It amazes me to see these weaklings OPENLY cry out for others (AA women, the government, and let's be real---"the government" = WM for all practical purposes) to do their job as wanna-be men.

This is how you end up with essays like the recent one by Roland Martin (that was discussed at the What About Our Daughters blog). Like so many other AA males, he talked about "manning up," but his "manning up" solution somehow led back to throwing responsibility onto women's backs.

You said, "And NOTHING can stop the demise since the majority of black males do not desire to change and behave like men in other "races"/ethnicities who care about the health and survival of their groups/cultures."-

They couldn't do it even if they wanted to; they're just too damaged for that. Let's be real---most of them are fatherless. And therefore have NO CLUE as to how a normal husband and father behaves. They're never seen one up close and personal.

This is why so many AA males actually believe that weekend parenting and tele-parenting over the phone is acceptable. This is why so many of them have no answer when I ask the question: "As a father, how do you physically protect your children when you don't live with them?" This BASIC aspect of fatherly duties (being on-site to provide physical protection) never occurred to a lot of these males; which shows that they're too far gone to be of any real use to their children.

Khadija said...

Part 2

Evia is being polite in the statement you quoted; the so-called AA community HAS ALREADY collapsed.

You said, "Individual BW are going to have to save themselves."-

This is the bottom line to all of this.

Here's another example of how far out of touch with reality many modern AA males are:

I was amused by a comment earlier today from a BM troll calling me a "feminist." [As if that would be a bad thing. Whatever.] I'm always tickled by those sorts of accusations from trolls because I don't know much about feminist ideology. I've never read or studied it.

The Quran, Elijah Muhammad's Message To The Blackman, Dr. Ali Shariati's essays, and works by Black Nationalists like Haki Madhubuti are the materials that had the most influence over my thinking during my formative years.

It never occurs to these dysfunctional Negroes that they come up waaay short by measures other than those set by so-called feminists.

It never occurred to this Negro troll that he and others like him come up waaaay short, and are NOT men, based upon the statements and standards set by various Black Nationalist patriarchs such as Elijah Muhammad and Haki Madhubuti.

From Elijah Muhammad's Message To The Black Man:

"The brown man will never recognize you until you protect your woman. The yellow man will never recognize you until you protect your woman. The white man will never recognize you until you protect your woman."
pg. 58-59.

From Haki Madhubuti's book Black Men: Obsolete, Single, Dangerous? The Afrikan American Family in Transition:

"Black men as a collective body have not been able to get our act together, and it is not accurate or in our best interest to blame Black women for our current condition. In this war situation that we are in, our women cannot effectively deal with white men; they need us---that's our job.-

We, Black men, have to stop and take a close look at ourselves and ask two important and penetrating questions:

(1)Why are Black women, by and large, more responsible than we?...

...(2)Is life worth living as wards of the state, wards of our women, and without the ability to actively determine our own destiny?"
pgs. 89-90.

Well...that pretty much sums it all up regarding that angle.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

And about MR. Black SeaGoat:

He was also instrumental in rescuing a hardworking young BW named Citoya Greenwood and her small daughter from the Dunbar Village Rape Camp. He was instrumental in finding alternative housing for Ms. Greenwood and her child. Let me note for the record that this REAL MAN who stood up and protected this BW and child is gay.


He is indeed what I consider A REAL man!! All real men are not identical. There is variation among real men because real men reveal themselves by what they DO. A person IS what they DO--not what they say or who they ***claim*** they are. When vetting a person, it's critical to vet them based on what they DO or have done, or are SHOWING all indications of DOING.

Evia is being polite in the statement you quoted; the so-called AA community HAS ALREADY collapsed.

It's true. We are definitely in the very last minutes, if not seconds, of the Apocalypse among AAs. To be brutally honest, I have to always put on my restraining jacket when I write--LOL!--because I don't really want to scare AA women, unnecessarily. Scaring them won't make most of them spring into action because they've been indoctrinated into paralysis with the notion that things are going to get better. or that it's bad everywhere ,or that somebody out there cares and is coming to rescue them, or that they can't move or that they don't have anywhere to go and so on.

So, I already know that most AA women and their daughters won't make it out. Since they're not going to make it out, I figure they they may as well not know that--as in 'ignorance (not knowing) is bliss.' I therefore always try to leave them with them with some degree of complacency and a degree of magical thinking. I figure I may as well be kind.

However, SOME AA women were/are waiting for a signal, a direction, and a degree of support. That's what they needed. We've been most effective with that segment of women and that segment is listening, taking notes, and are MOVING swiftly in these last minutes and seconds!!

So it's true that I and others like me generally came along too late, but I feel good that I did what I could. I believe that a person should do what they can to help--but ONLY up to the point where it begins to jeopardize that person's own self. No one should self-sacrifice, except for their young children--since they're responsible for bringing those children into this world.

So my essays are frightening to some because they detect that I write from a post-Apocalyptic position. As I've mentioned, it's important to me to document these occurrences, this history, while it is still fresh because I want people in the future to know what caused the final collapse of AA people, from the viewpoint of SOME AA women.

Halima said...

Now that I think about it, NO other ethnic group of women on this planet goes around talking (much less shrieking) about how they would never date/marry a WM. No matter HOW much hostility some of them feel towards Whites/Europeans.

For example, consider Arab women who come from societies that are steeped in hatred/rage/contempt for the White West. Even THEY aren't running around loudtalking about how they would never date/marry a White, Western, Christian man! THEY have the common sense to keep whatever options they have as open as possible.


This is one of the reasons khadija, why I am fast approaching the conclussion that black women actually hate and resent white men way more than black men do.

Quite as it is kept and despite bm being the most vocal about their issues with wm, it is the black woman who stands in the shadows with a deep and festering hatred in her heart for white men. this being willing to spite herself to oppose wm even sacrifice her interests attests to this!

Khadija said...

Evia,

You said, "There is variation among real men because real men reveal themselves by what they DO. A person IS what they DO--not what they say or who they ***claim*** they are. When vetting a person, it's critical to vet them based on what they DO or have done, or are SHOWING all indications of DOING."-

Exactly. The other thing that impressed me about MR. Black SeaGoat is that his behavior reminded me of the "old-school" BM that I was blessed to be raised by, like my Dad, uncles, and older cousins.

MR. Black SeaGoat didn't do a lot of gum-flapping about what he was "fixin'" to do about Rev. Hot Comb's trespass against AA women and children. He wasn't looking for anybody else to figure out what HE should do as a man. He wasn't looking for anybody else's permission to take action on behalf of AA women and children. And, finally, he wasn't looking for a cookie or pat on the back for simply doing his duty as a MAN.

He simply called in to Gina's What About Our Daughters podcast at the time, and announced what HE was going to do (without fanfare). MR. Black SeaGoat went out and handled his business as a man. Full stop. Period. This is how old-school AA men "did." They, and MR. Black SeaGoat, were not skeered to be that ONE MAN "standing in the gap."

In a perverse way, it was amusing to read blog posts about how the foolish BW who work for Rev. Hot Comb's National Action Network were scrambling to try to get him to call off his ONE MAN counter-demonstration against Press & Curl.

Audience Note: I'm recounting this episode in detail because not only did it cause a shift in my thinking, but I feel that it's a perfect microcosm of the current AA condition.

You said, "However, SOME AA women were/are waiting for a signal, a direction, and a degree of support. That's what they needed. We've been most effective with that segment of women and that segment is listening, taking notes, and are MOVING swiftly in these last minutes and seconds!!

So it's true that I and others like me generally came along too late, but I feel good that I did what I could."
-

Yes, the "AAs as a PERMANENT underclass" process is too far gone for any sort of mass survival. Similar to the way that the Holocaust process was already too far gone by the time that various Jewish partisans started rescuing other Jews. However, each individual AA woman's life that is saved is a victory. I'm satisfied with that.
_____________________

Halima,

You said, "This is one of the reasons khadija, why I am fast approaching the conclussion that black women actually hate and resent white men way more than black men do."-

I don't know what any of that is about. I doubt that it's actually about "hate." As you know, Black folks across the planet generally aren't very good at hating anybody except other Blacks. Unlike other races of people, we really don't know how to hold long-term history-based grudges against outsiders. For those reasons, I doubt that it's actually about genuine "hate" per se.

I suspect that it's more about not wanting to feel like what the White neo-Nazis, etc. refer to among themselves as "race traitors."

Whatever it is, I don't understand it. When I was in my Black Nationalist trance, my actions weren't about being anti-anybody. [Although, I was (and am) anti-oppressors, anti-exploiters, anti-predators, etc. of ANY type.] My motives and those of many around me were about being pro-self, pro-ethnic self-respect, and pro-ethnic self-love.

Just like other ethnic groups are pro-self, etc.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Felicia said...

"Quite as it is kept and despite bm being the most vocal about their issues with wm, it is the black woman who stands in the shadows with a deep and festering hatred in her heart for white men. this being willing to spite herself to oppose wm even sacrifice her interests attests to this!"

Halima, (and the general listening audience) I'm going to put on my "psychiatric" hat and say that I believe the main reason why these foolish, ignorant, and stupid BW hold WM as a group in contempt (without recognizing their individuality) is because on some level they hold WM "responsible" for the damaged psyche's of most BM.

And therefor in a round about way, for the downfall of the black race/community. Since any community without well functioning normal men is ultimently doomed.

I've even read the EXACT phrase "White men TURNED BM into n*ggers" spoken by many a black woman online.

And I can't believe this discussion is only taking place on the internet...

Which is basically saying white men (and all non BM to an extant) are BM's puppeteers since BM as a group are followers too brainless/weak to behave normally.

To resist the "programing".

Many BW are honestly claiming BM are being "controlled" (SMH) by white men.

My feeling is, no smart well adjusted woman with high self-esteem should even want a puppet to BEGIN with.

If she does, there's something wrong with HER.

I don't care WHAT I was faced with, NO one could turn me into a "n*gger". NO one could break me like that.

And I'm a woman. A man certainly should be able to resist being turned into something unrecognizable.

Hell, even our enslaved African ancestors had MUCH MORE self-pride and DIGNITY then some of these Negroes I see on the street.

It's pitiful.

Basically, these angry, and literally blind, deaf, and dumb BW you speak of Halima, REALLY need to do some serious soul searching themselves.

They need to ask themselves WHY would the want a male who is not husband and father material in their life anyway?

Another thing that pisses these angry anti-"The Man" BW off is the fact that WM on average treat WW (and really ANY woman they truly love regardless of "race") better than the way black males treat BW.

You will find that these BW ALSO tend to hate on WW, AW, HW, and BW who are in successful relationships regardless. But ESPECIALLY those with WM.

Because in their minds, it's just a reminder of how the average BM is lacking...

And they again blame WM for messing BM up.

You see, it's just and ENDLESS LOOP of anger, frustration, helplessness and jealousy.

It's really sad and unnecessary...

But these type of BW aren't going to make it anyway.

Thus the concentration MUST stay focused on those BW who are "on the fence" and just need a little support and guidance.

Some basic common sense that their mothers, and other female family members should have given them from birth.

I"m not blaming these mothers because they were simply operating according to their own indoctrination and some honestly were not fully aware of how absolutely different the social landscape is now compared to the past.

When a certain percentage of people know better, they do better.

Khadija said...

To Those AA Women Who Make Public Statements About How You Would Never Date/Marry a WM:

I'm asking you to reflect on why it is that you do this.

I'm asking you to consider the fact that, as I noted above, even anti-White, anti-Western Arab women DON'T do this.

If the Arab woman doesn't do this, why in the world are YOU doing this? Keep in mind that she's NOT doing this even while her Arab man is busy following through on his hostility toward the White West. Unlike loudtalking Negroes, Arab men are actually running around killing up their WM enemies.

And yet the Arab woman STILL keeps her collective options as open as possible.

I'm calling on you to do the same. When you publicly talk about how you would never date/marry outside the race, you are inadvertently slitting our collective throats as AA women. You are slitting our throats because you are inadvertently working to narrow our collective options.

Why continue to do this? How does publicly saying these sorts of things benefit YOU? I submit to you that it DOESN'T benefit you to publicly say these things. Theren's no benefit/need for you to publicly tell others what you will and won't do. People catch the hint by your actions. It also doesn't benefit other AA women for you to make these sorts of public statements.

Please stop making these sorts of public statements. These statements don't benefit you, meanwhile they DO harm the interests of the rest of your sisters and daughters.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Felicia said...

A heartfelt thanks for your plea for sanity Khadija.

What these BW don't realize is they are in essence DE-feminizing themselves (and thus the AA woman's "brand") on the GLOBAL stage.

Because heterosexual males are hardwired to be attracted to females REGARDLESS of "race".

When these STUPID AA BW spout their crap (which is a pathetic attempt at "proving their loyalty " and attracting BM who aren't interested in them to begin with) they make BW (especially AA BW) look MASCULINE.

Because that's what men do. Go on the attack.

These BW are taking themselves out of the woman category in societies eyes.

Because heterosexual women wish to be desired as women by men period. And "race" is not even in the equation.

These ignorant BW are shooting themselves - and AA BW's collective image - in the foot.

And some BW honestly wonder why non BM are more hesitant about pursing AA BW than they are about pursuing Asians, Hispanics, and non AA BW?

It's not rocket science.

Asian women, Hispanic women, Indian women, and non African-American black women have not shot themselves in the foot!

That's why it's VITALLY important for AA BW who've retained their femininity in spite of the foolishness around them, and are interested in attracting good undamaged non-colorist husbands (and future fathers) from the global community, to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from the "strong black shemales."

By any means necessary.

Any feminine woman considers it a COMPLIMENT to be considered desirable for marriage by whatever "race" of men.

In fact, feminine women with high self-esteem EXPECT men regardless of "race" to be attracted to them and desire them as wives and mothers.

It's nothing "strange" or "objectionable". It's simply considered normal.

Enigma said...

I am so thankful that you (Khadijah), Evia, Roslyn, Lisa, Halima, Sara and others challenge AA women to think differently and to think of themselves. To think of their own happiness, safety - their own lives. All of you compliment each other so well. You ALL have helped me so much.

I too have taken off my "Super Duper Black Woman" cape and now ... well, I am getting accustomed to taking care of me in the evenings. I am dreaming w/my eyes open again about the life I want to live. That is a big "WOW" for me. ;) I am getting accustomed to allowing men to treat me as a woman and not as their "match" & I do not feel that I need to be their match in every way either - as long as I am respected & treated well I am cool. The weight is off my shoulders and it feels GREAT! I am also adjusting to letting go of toxic folks and allowing others who thought that it was my lot to suffer through life to adjust to the loud NOT that I am broadcasting with my actions, my speech and how I carry myself. Others opinions do not affect me as much because I honor my own needs and wants NOW. Treat me well and with respect or be gone and YES I mean it. LOL. That is sooo very empowering. I smile a lot more often now - I am not set to WARRIOR all the time anymore. That was SOOOOO tiring. The next thing is to associate with other folks who are thinking similarily and create new/healthy relationships - which is why I visit your sites and those of the other women who post on this site SO much. With every blog discussion, every comment, every idea to ponder I consider my life and how I want to lead it - what I want and that assistance w/creating my goals, making the changes that I need to - well that is what's up.

Thanks to you ladies in particular and to everyone else that participates in the discussions. They are both eye opening and important to and for ME and others. *applause*

LaJane Galt said...

These statements don't benefit you, meanwhile they DO harm the interests of the rest of your sisters and daughters.


I think the "loyalty proclamation" is also designed to keep crabs in a barrel.

ak said...

Ooooh Delishmish

I have hated men or even women in general telling me when to smile since I was a child! Yes it's usually the men who used to tell me to smile as I walked down the street.

They tell women to smile to make themselves feel better, because they don't care how the woman is really feeling do they?

I feel uncomfortable telling other people what they should feel and do,and I don't do that, but that doesn't mena you can push me around with no problem! LOL

ak said...

Khadija:

Anyway, all of that was the very last straw for me. At that point, I saw that AA women and children are in grave danger. And the danger isn't just from the active BM predators. The danger is the permissive atmosphere created by the legions of so-called "decent brothers" who enable these demons to do what they do with impunity.

I'm saying all of this to say that once I understood "what time it is" regarding most AA men, my reactions changed. Considering the points raised by various pioneer BW empowerment bloggers helped me understand "what time it is." They helped me see that there was/is NO rational reason for AA women to be emotionally caught up in AA men's thoughts, viewpoints, or doings.

Since the vast majority of AA men long since stopped functioning as MEN who are protectors and providers, they are TOTALLY irrelevant to our futures as women. Therefore, why spend any emotional/mental energy whatsoever on what general, random AA men think, feel, believe, or do? It doesn't matter. They don't matter in the overall scheme of things.


Hear, hear!

Muse said...

Great post Khadija! Evia your blogs have been a lifesaver. So many of my girlfriends are reading many of these black women empowerment blogs and their lives are being changed for the better. You women will always have a soft spot in my heart because your messages are reaching so many women and will have a positive impact on their lives. Now these women know they have choices on how they want to be treated and how to live high quality lives!

Even though I didn't have a severe case grave digger mentality, I did put other people and their causes above my own needs in and outside of the Black community. However 2009 has been about enjoying my youth, exploring my heart's desires, and being a woman. I've put my self interest above everyone this year and it's paying off in amazing ways. Taking care of your mental, spiritual, and physical health along with enjoying your life is NOT SELFISH. It's amazing. As a result of the steps I've taken, I feel beautiful and I'm happy. I hope Black women everywhere realize that it is not their job to save everyone. Save yourself. You are a bigger asset to society when you are happy, healthy, and able to put boundaries on how people treat you.

Nu Girl said...

Hello Khadija,

I too have to thank Evia. I am an avid lurker on her site. Even through I am married to a supportive and loving AA man, I have gained so much from her work and my daughter will gain from her work. The thing is, you don't have to be a AA women looking for an interracial relationship to gain wisdom from her essays. Her work is instruction on living a quality life period.

So many get caught up in the trying to put her site in an interracial box that they miss the point of her work altogether.

Thank You Evia and Thank You Khadija!

Monique

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

Why continue to do this? How does publicly saying these sorts of things benefit YOU? I submit to you that it DOESN'T benefit you to publicly say these things. Theren's no benefit/need for you to publicly tell others what you will and won't do. People catch the hint by your actions. It also doesn't benefit other AA women for you to make these sorts of public statements.


My reply:

As others explained, it is about proving that they are "good black women," a type of one-up-womanship regarding other black women and to curry favor in the eyes of black men. They are the enforcers keeping other black women in line, because they are not content only to say what they won't do, but others seek to tell others that the are wrong to pursue the options they reject.

They get to sit on their laurels, whether they have been successful at negotiating long-term relationships with good black men, or whether they have not. They get the psychic benefits, although they might not have anything to show it. Just another aspect of "it's good to struggle" in the name of the community.

So funny someone thought to label you a feminist, as though that alone would shut you up: the feminist boogey woman!

As for this notion of "smiling," I always saw it as a tool of strangers trying to get black women's guard down. They never say that to men, the way they do to women!

A note about women in the Middle East--their culture encourages the men to take a public stand about many things, while the women are discouraged. Some might want to be vocal, others, not. Those who don't want to be vocal can hide as a result. They have their own vocal enforcers, though, the women who criticize others for being too western, ie., not wearing the veil, etc.

Khadija said...

Felicia,

You're welcome! And thank YOU for your kind words and providing the latest Reader's Money Quote. I feel that this whole public declaration thing AND other inadvertent de-feminizing moves need to be a separate conversation.

Whenever we're doing something that NO OTHER ethnic group of women is doing, whatever it is needs to be scrutinized. Unfortunately, AA women have various programmed behaviors that are unique to us.

Not to rehash an earlier conversation, but it occurred to me today that in terms of American women, AA women are the ONLY ones who have run with this "I can be fat and fabulous" notion. I understand that many of these negatively unique behaviors are emotional defense mechanisms of sort. But the problems that are causing these attempted, dysfunctional defense mechanisms need to be solved. Not papered over.
_______________________

Enigma,

Thank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it. All of these conversations have affected me as well.

Previously, it would NOT have occurred to me to write a science fiction/thriller novel. Business-related books, yes. But not fiction. And even though it will be a novel that encourages AAW's self-actualization and freedom, I'm not doing it "to help the sisters." Uplifting AA women and girls' spirits will be a side effect of the novel. I'm writing the novel because I want to. I'm doing it for ME.-
_______________________

LaJane Galt,

You said, "I think the "loyalty proclamation" is also designed to keep crabs in a barrel."-

Well, whatever it's about, it needs to be re-examined and curtailed.
__________________________

AK,

Thanks! LOL! Onward and forward!

___________________________

Muse,

Thank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it.

You said, "Even though I didn't have a severe case grave digger mentality, I did put other people and their causes above my own needs in and outside of the Black community. However 2009 has been about enjoying my youth, exploring my heart's desires, and being a woman. I've put my self interest above everyone this year and it's paying off in amazing ways. Taking care of your mental, spiritual, and physical health along with enjoying your life is NOT SELFISH. It's amazing. As a result of the steps I've taken, I feel beautiful and I'm happy. I hope Black women everywhere realize that it is not their job to save everyone. Save yourself. You are a bigger asset to society when you are happy, healthy, and able to put boundaries on how people treat you."-

YES! YES! YES!

Khadija said...

Part 2

NuGirl/Monique,

You're welcome! And THANK YOU for your kind words. I truly appreciate it.

In reference to Evia's blog, you said, "The thing is, you don't have to be a AA women looking for an interracial relationship to gain wisdom from her essays. Her work is instruction on living a quality life period.

So many get caught up in the trying to put her site in an interracial box that they miss the point of her work altogether."
-

Yes, I've noticed the same thing. So many people (with a variety of motives---some out of genuine confusion or misinterpretation, others---trolls---out of ill will) are so preoccupied with putting her message into a tight, little, DISTORTED box.
_______________________

PioneerValleyWoman,

Yes, a silly troll tried to fling the "feminist" label, as if that means anything to me. {chuckling} And, as you've seen before, you saw me pull out some quotes from Elijah Muhammad and Haki Madhubuti. It's funny how BM trolls usually get veeery quiet after a few quotes from Elijah Muhammad. {more chuckling}

You said, "A note about women in the Middle East--their culture encourages the men to take a public stand about many things, while the women are discouraged. Some might want to be vocal, others, not. Those who don't want to be vocal can hide as a result. They have their own vocal enforcers, though, the women who criticize others for being too western, ie., not wearing the veil, etc."-

Be that as it may, I'm thinking of the ones that I've seen/heard talking in public for interviews, etc. Even among that vocal category of anti-Western Arab women, I have NEVER heard a single one of them say that they would never consider marrying a White, Western man. Not once.

They will say that they would only consider marrying a MUSLIM man. But even with that, they don't make verbal pronouncements excluding consideration because a man is White/Western. And I notice that those Western, WM who convert to Islam, become religious radicals and run off to these places seem to have NO problems with acquiring Arab wives.

[These women aren't too keen on marrying Negroes. Negro male converts usually have to purchase extremely poor Arab women for marriage. This is why they flock to dirt-poor villages in Morocco to buy these women. But this doesn't seem to apply to WM. WM don't have to pay that type of money.]

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

ak said...

PVW:

As others explained, it is about proving that they are "good black women," a type of one-up-womanship regarding other black women and to curry favor in the eyes of black men.


Yes, these bw always think they're successfully currying favor from bm, and they think they'll 'get a cookie' or even better a husband if they curtail other bw or put them down somehow, but these Keepers of The Blackness women never pay attention to the fact that these black men don't pay attention to them, don't want them, and don't care what they do.

I don't know why these Keepers of The Blackness women, look at what they get back in return for all their gum-flapping against other bw which is nothing and then just drop the whole thing, their pose and all their silly notions.

Khadija said...

AK,

Let's NOT be so quick to vilify and verbally bash the women who make these statements. I'm NOT going to publish any more comments containing harsh words about these women. Why are so many of us so quick to make ADDITIONAL enemies?-

I think that much of this is the result of simply not thinking through the effects of these statements. Not to mention the programmed, knee-jerk reaction that AA women have been trained to have---to put purported "group" interests (= BM's interests) over their own interests.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I've been thinking about this topic in another way, that throughout history, peoples in the West and perhaps even in other cultures, presented visions in their popular culture, the myths and so forth, of how they imagined the men and women of their group would behave.

In Western culture, from the earliest days, notions of chivalry had a strong influence: the warrior prince as the defender of women and children, who earns his patriarchy by his dedication to the woman whose favor he must earn.

Modern day manifestations of this theme persist; I'll only mention a few: "the damsel in distress," the "downtrodden woman who must be rescued and uplifted," etc., etc.

And in women's fiction, the theme is stressed most strongly, reinforcing what women are to expect.

So compare, for example, chick-lit targeted at white women and say, a Terry MacMillan, where the current community mores are perpetuated, that women are to uplift the downtrodden black man, so that he can become a prince, not the other way around.

The differences are striking.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Here is a shocking example of the sort of thing being spoken of here, of black women being seen as men.

I was looking at Father's Day cards recently, and I saw in the section, a card with a picture of a black woman on it, but rather th an it being a card from a woman to a man, this was a "father's day card" for a woman, a mother who operated as a father. I wonder whether there were any like it in the generic or "white" section of cards.

It says a lot, what the state of the community has come to, with the prevalence of black women raising children alone, not because of widowhood, and not only because of divorce, but because of the inordinate numbers of single black mothers who have never married.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I wonder whether anyone saw a news special from several months ago, families coping with the economic downturn. Various families were interviewed, and the focus was on women who became the primary breadwinners once their husbands lost their jobs. These men had either once been primary breadwinners or equal providers.

These women were undoubtedly undertaking what is seen traditionally as a masculine role, but they presented themselves as feminine nonetheless, they were nurturing their families in a different way, as their husbands now were, nurturing by occupying a more protective role in the household. They were working together with their husbands to make their marriages strong, they valued the men they married and the men's contribution, notwithstanding the setback.

Of course, it is impossible to know what happens behind closed doors, but what matters is how they spun it.

The one black woman interviewed in the segment was married to a white man, and she presented herself as an emasculating sapphire type, humiliating him on national television, they she could not respect him as a result of his being unemployed.

Talk about presenting oneself as unfeminine.

Khadija said...

PioneerValleyWoman,

You said, "I was looking at Father's Day cards recently, and I saw in the section, a card with a picture of a black woman on it, but rather th an it being a card from a woman to a man, this was a "father's day card" for a woman, a mother who operated as a father."-

OMG! That's...horrible.

You said, "I wonder whether there were any like it in the generic or "white" section of cards."-

You're being polite. You already know the answer to this. Other people would NEVER institutionalize (by recognition) this sort of practice.

In terms of the "Sapphire" behavior you described, this sort of thing is part of the reason why Elijah Muhammad instituted MGT (Muslim Girls' Training) classes. The majority AA fatherlessness/bastard child rate means that many AA women have also never seen what a normal marriage looks like. And how one behaves in public with one's spouse.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

tasha212 said...

I have made statements on my blog and on other's blogs that I would never date a white man. Not in the interest of currying favor from black men, but as a statement of MY personal prefernces, which has nothing to do with other black women and their preferences. However, I have also written a post or two about black women expanding their options beyond the ever-dwindling pool of AA men. Now, I can't speak for other sisters who have made these kinds of statements, but I know that I meant no malicious intent.

Peace and Solidarity,

Tasha

Khadija said...

Tasha,

Oh yes, I know that there's usually no malicious intent with these statements. That's why I told another commenter to STOP verbally bashing and insulting the women who do make those statements.

This put down/insult angle was something that I didn't care for about the recent Reader's Money Quote that I recenlty highlighted; but I feel that the other benefits of the quote far outweigh my concerns with that aspect of the quote.

Here's my point: Whatever the intentions are, these sorts of statements don't serve our collective interests as AAW. In fact, these sorts of statements do great damage to our collective interests as AAW. I believe that we need to re-think these sorts of statements. I believe that we need to stop making these sorts of statement.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

Khadijah,this is actually an interesting aspect of this discussion. Should AA/bw women just say exactly what's on their minds if they feel like it or should they speak "strategically?" I think that's what's underneath this?

Now maybe, here's where one split is between different groups of us bw these days. Some bw apparently feel they should say what they want to say if they feel like saying it any kind of way they want to say it--whenever and whereever they want to say it. This means, for ex., that if they feel like cursing publicly, they feel they should be able to do it--and apparently they want to "wish away" any consequences or stigmas.

Whereas some of us believe in speaking strategically. For ex., anything that I say publicly is in line with a general overarching strategy.

I think that anything that's put out there for public consumption should be done with some sort of stragegy in mind.

Maybe I don't understand why it's so hard for some bw NOT to say everything they think any kind of way. I know I mentioned this aspect of bw's behavior in a couple of my essays. I KNOW I was taught to always self-screen what I say. This was a part of my home-training. My mother would say something like "Don't let your mouth write a check that your behind can't cash," or something along those lines. And I always screen what I say in my essays--believe it or not--LOL! I am always careful about what I say because I don't want to dig a hole for myself or for others I care about. Any hole that I dig always has another exit or several exits.

Let me just say this--speaking from other cultural experiences. Ww, who are supposedly the most free and the most advantaged women in the world, engage in what I loosely refer to as 'calculated' speech and behavior. I notice often how they hold themselves back. LOL! African women are the same way. As a matter of fact, one of the complaints that some wm have about ww is that ww don't say what they really think. I've noticed that this is because these women want to have as much wiggle room as possible to capitalize on various situations.

So I think it would be interesting to know why it is that some bw think they should be able to say everything they think or feel in a public forum. Is it because they think they don't have anything else to lose? Or what? Or is it because they don't have any other forum to express themselves? OR?

Khadija said...

Evia,

I think that all of this the result of a number of negative AA cultural shifts coming together in a "perfect storm." AAs' tendency for the "magical thinking" that you've discussed on your blog has always been there. But now there are some new, equally destructive elements combined with the magical thinking:

(1) The modern absence of what our Big Mamas called "home training." One of the first small child commandments that I recall was the idea that I better NOT act out in public. The idea that whatever crazy thing you do, DON'T do it in public.

I received very few whoopings as a child [I can count them on one hand, with fingers to spare]. But the biggest whooping that I ever recall was caused by my 5-year-old decision to have a tantrum in the middle of a department store. I never did anything like that again.

Obviously, things have changed so that large numbers of us are no longer raised with this concept.

(2) The normalizing of therapy/12 step meeting/dope fiend-pity party terminology and thought patterns. Certain pathologies have become so widespread among our group that the jargon and thought patterns associated with these pathologies ("therapy speak," self-pity, narcissism) have become normalized among us. Which means that we no longer understand just how stigmatizing this type of self-presentation is.

I was shocked me to see how surprised readers were when you pulled their coat during the Fitness Matters discussion. I was amazed that it never occurred to so many people that the suggested "Weep for obese AA women because most of them are emotionally disturbed" banner could be extremely damaging to our collective interests. And lead to increased employment discrimination, etc.

[Although, I wouldn't necessarily call certain things discrimination in certain contexts. For example, I DON'T want emotionally disturbed people working with children.]

I've represented a lot of dope fiends. 99.99% of them are self-pitying. They are also extremely self-absorbed. They assume that others are going to have sympathy for them, and an endless interest in hearing about their addiction "triggers," etc.

Ummm...NO. Normal HUMAN survival instincts create a strong aversion to sickness and disease (of any sort). People aren't automatically sympathetic to sickness and disease. Instead, they are repulsed by it on a primal level. And ummm...no, other people aren't particularly interested in hearing other folks whine. They are preoccupied with their own lives and issues.

There are now so many dope fiends among AAs that these dope fiend thought patterns have spread among our people in general.

(3) General lack of strategic thinking.
'Nuff said about that.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

I don't have much time and deadlines are looming. I just want to make one brief and important point. Nowhere have I said, nor would I say that black women need to make a public spectacle of the issues connecting obesity and sexual abuse. After all, all overweight women aren't sexual abuse survivors, and we have no way of telling which ones are unless they tell us. And given the way most of these women hide out of shame and fear of stigmatization, that's highly unlikely to occur. I do think that for the women for whom this IS an issue need to understand the correlation so that they can seek the proper assistance in rectifying the matter, both for their physical and emotional health. As you've said, black women are dying. I submit that they're not crying out for pity, but for knowledge. And most overwhelmingly from a knowledge of self.

If they don't understand the motivation behind the behavior they're engaging in they have no way of rectifying it. I don't think this requires a pity party and certainly I never suggested weeping for them. I was doing as I always do, sharing information for the benefit of black women. It's not an issue of sympathy or trying to cull sympathy from anyone. Again, I've worked rape trials, I know very well that people have very little sympathy for rape victims, particularly if they're black. I was simply providing information that apparently a lot of people don't have. Let me make it clear, on these blogs I'm not talking to the general population. I'm talking to black women. Specifically a very narrow cadre of black women who are interested in empowerment.

As for not considering the stigma of the issue, most assuredly I have. After all, I've been working with rape and sexual abuse victims my entire career. The stigma associated with the crime is the reason its reported so rarely, thus leaving the perpetrators free to walk to streets and continually prey on others. It's also why the victims remain silent, out of fear of the stigma, and why they self-medicate with food. So, whether it's publicly known or not, they already feel stigmatized. But certainly, none of this requires any type public disclosure.

anna (teritary#anna) said...

@ Khadija:

I think also "Rewarding Negative Behavior".

I think there's always a payoff. And until that reward goes away (or gets eclipsed by the punishment) the bad behavior will continue. It's like if your toddler yells for a sweet, and you give in, but only after 10 minutes. You want the child to stop, but what you've taught her is that the price for getting what she wants is a 10 minute tantrum.

I think we as BW do get rewarded for negative behavior. When a BW is loud, abrasive, she's given more attention than when she is more genteel. It's not positive attention, but it's still attention.

Think of the "Sassy Sidekick Syndrome" that BW in movies and TV have. They're given importance because they provide the neck-poppin', finger-snappin' sarcasm that helps the main woman get her man. And even though that same behavior undermines the BW's chances of getting her own man, the fact that she's only seen when she's loud reinforces the idea that the price of her value is her loudness.

This is just in fiction, but I believe that we shape our worlds through the images we consume (I had to stop consuming a lot of media when I realized this.)

But even in real life, it's often the case that the loud person gets the attention. It doesn't matter that it's not positive, because if you're not getting any attention then negative is better than nothing.

So if you need to be abrasive to get your missing (dad, boyfriend, husband, etc.) to pay attention to you, then you quickly devalue the benefits of being soft in your interactions with men. If it goes long enough, or is widespread enough, it becomes normalized behavior.

And worse, the definition of normal manhood becomes shaped by the missing men in your life. So you don't really know how you should expect to be treated, because it's not been properly modeled for you.

I think this really stops when the woman decides that she shouldn't have to go through all that effort to be valued, but if a woman never sees that there are other options, she may not ever realize it. Or if she's willing (or in a position to) just cut her losses with people who feed into her negativity.

That's why I think the media can be so powerful, but I think that we're saturated with media that is invested in our debasement.

Like I said, I really don't know any BW who are against dating outside of their race. So discussions specifically labeled about IR dating might get ignored (since they're not opposed to IR dating.)

But I do know BW who can't figure out why they're not getting the men they want, and so discussions on getting quality men are really helpful.

Khadija said...

Roslyn,

Err,...okay. I don't understand why you felt the need to post your latest comment.

Nobody said that you said that "black women need to make a public spectacle of the issues connecting obesity and sexual abuse." I thought we had covered all of that during the Fitness Matters discussion. As I said over there, I don't see any inherent contradiction between what you've been saying and what I've been saying. [Not that there's anything wrong with disagreement. I'm just noting that I don't see one between our various comments on this topic.]

Nevertheless, I DO feel as if I've tumbled down the rabbit-hole with Alice in Wonderland with some of the comments I'm reading about this topic.

Again, I ask: Why is some folks' quest for validation of their personal problems more important than LIFE ITSELF?-

Because that's what this really boils down to for the pity partiers. The pity partiers don't want "understanding" or "acknowledgment" of some of the underlying issues. As quoted from my earlier posts, from the VERY BEGINNING of discussing this topic I have acknowledged some of the underlying issues. Judging from some of the comments, this acknowledgment was not sufficient for their purposes.

Just the other day, I stumbled across an obese BW's blog where she and a few other obese BW were complaining about how "fat-phobia" was the reason why fewer men asked them out. And how men needed to become less "fat-phobic."

And I will note that from their self-descriptions, these women are obese for real. Not chubby or overweight.

WTH? This is CRAZY thinking that flies in the face of human reality throughout the ages. If they're waiting for men to reverse their general preference for non-obese women, they'll be waiting until Judgment Day.

The origin of this type of distorted thinking is from people taking sympathy and understanding MUCH TOO FAR. This is another widespread AA cultural dysfunction---we typically want standards lowered to accomodate our failures and dysfunctions. And instead of getting ourselves together, we'll strenously argue against any sort of standards.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the real deal is that folks want the very standards changed to accomodate their refusal to engage in self-care and self-preservation.

That's why folks are so FRANTIC to justify/excuse/deny the negative consequences of their refusal to make some changes. This is why so many people are MORE emotionally invested in the pity party than in saving their own lives.
-

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Anna,

You said, "I think also "Rewarding Negative Behavior". I think there's always a payoff. And until that reward goes away (or gets eclipsed by the punishment) the bad behavior will continue.

...I think we as BW do get rewarded for negative behavior. When a BW is loud, abrasive, she's given more attention than when she is more genteel. It's not positive attention, but it's still attention."
-

That's an excellent point! One that I need to think over. Many commenters have noted how many AAW bond with each other around misery. [As opposed to bonding around mutual efforts toward uplift.]

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Felicia said...

Evia said...

Now maybe, here's where one split is between different groups of us bw these days. Some bw apparently feel they should say what they want to say if they feel like saying it any kind of way they want to say it--whenever and wherever they want to say it. This means, for ex., that if they feel like cursing publicly, they feel they should be able to do it--and apparently they want to "wish away" any consequences or stigmas.

Whereas some of us believe in speaking strategically. For ex., anything that I say publicly is in line with a general overarching strategy.

I think that anything that's put out there for public consumption should be done with some sort of strategy in mind.




IMO there are indeed two VERY different types of BW out there.

Type A, the ones who let it all hang out without thought of the negative consequences to the group out of ignorance and/or self-absorption.

And type B, the ones who realize that first impressions are EVERYTHING and important, especially when it comes to US.

Unfortunately, as BW we're often not thought of as individuals, but part of a collective.

Therefor, when a few vocal BW reinforce (sometimes not knowingly or with malicious intent) a PRE-existing societal belief/stereotype (that ALL BW have an aversion to IR relationships), people naturally take these statements MORE to heart.

They remember these statements (because an already held belief is being reinforced) and apply these opinions to ALL BW.

Which of course puts those BW who ARE open to IR relationships - and those that prefer them - at a disadvantage.

Which is unfortunate. That's why it's important for those BW who ARE interested in attracting the BEST man for the most important job there is - being a good husband and father - regardless of "race", to STAND OUT from the crowd.

I would just hope that AA BW would begin to realize that they do NOT live in a bubble.

Behavior, and the way one communicates, and WHAT one chooses to say, carry SERIOUS consequences that effect ALL BW.

Especially AA BW.

BW need to stop digging holes for themselves and their fellow sisters and daughters.

And speaking of this "strong black woman" FIASCO, I came a cross a very enlightening article entitled THE LIFE (AND DEATH) OF THE STRONG BLACK WOMAN

It is an absolute MUST read and touches on MUCH of what is discussed here, on Evia's blog, and others.

http://bwlovingnonbm.blogspot.com
/2008/04/life-and-death-of-strong-black-woman.html

Khadija said...

Felicia,

You've made some excellent points. Too many for me to repeat; I'd end up simply repeating your entire comment. LOL!

You've reminded me of a conversation I had with one of my tenants a few years back [she's an "up-from-foster-care-and-the hood" professional, and unwed mother at the time]. It showed me how some of us have bought into some extremely naive ideas.

She proudly told me that her life was "an open book." And was surprised by my horrified reaction to this statement. It had never occured to her that:

1-Most people will misuse whatever personal information you give them about yourself. In other words, trust should be earned and not given away for nothing. This gets back to Evia's earlier essays about various types of magical thinking. This one is the "If I'm open with others, others will automatically be open with me" delusion. "If I'm nice to others, then others will automatically be nice to me".

2-Open and free books are found in public libraries. Library books are used and enjoyed for FREE, without any sort of investment on the reader's part.

Because they're free, readers tend to handle them in a careless manner. With less care than if they had to make an investment to read the entire book. And finally, library books are tossed back onto the public shelf to be used over and over again by other people who make NO investment in the books.

3-Another magical thought is the notion that "If I don't 'judge' people, then they automatically won't 'judge' me." Ummm...NO.

I'm really annoyed by this "judgment" terminology. People are making measurements, comparisons, and value assessments all the time about everything around them. To pretend that this assessment process should (or even could) be shut down during interpersonal interactions is the height of wishful thinking.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Southland Diva said...

Another issue with the public face of bw is the portrayal of black women in the movies, television shows and commercials. It appears the media believe black women have one emotion and it is anger. Period. No context. No explanation. I recently watched part of a movie where the bm character, after being told he is terminal, decides to do some of the things he wished he'd done his entire life. When he tells his wife (bw) about this, she becomes angry...and that's all you get (in that scene anyway), her anger. She does not explain her anger is born of her fear of his terminal diagnosis, she is just angry.....and proceeds to berate him, treating him as if he were a six-year old!!! (smh)

Granted, I did not watch the rest of the movie, so perhaps her behavior was explained, I just know in that scene she was allowed only one dimension. The one feeling demonstrated was anger. Not fear, love, anxiety, terror, loss...

Neither the angry bw pose nor the strong bw pose is relevant or functional in 2009. I am not suggesting bw become weak or powerless. Far from it! I agree with Evia! Black women must become more strategic in our public and private face. Quality men are more likely to be attracted by feminine attributes than by masculine attributes in women. The same way women are more likely to be attracted to men who display masculine attributes (heterosexually-speaking). These are the attributes and behaviors we must cultivate and promote.

Peace

DeStouet said...

"IMO there are indeed two VERY different types of BW out there.

Type A, the ones who let it all hang out without thought of the negative consequences to the group out of ignorance and/or self-absorption.

And type B, the ones who realize that first impressions are EVERYTHING and important, especially when it comes to US."

And one of the many problems is that the two groups rarely talk.

And, I am willing to bet that type A, are those women who have not had proper guidance and a healthy upbringing and type B, just the opposite.

Evia said...

AA women MUST either function alone or break into smaller groups or work toward doing BOTH at this point in order to differentiate themselves from the ABCs and other suicidal factions of AAs. There are a bunch of very different factions of AA women out there and there's barely any sensible reason for them to interact or intersect with each other due to guaranteed infighting that will ensue.

I've advocated for years that likeminded AA women set up "Intentional kinship groups/families" in order to differentiate themselves and work on uplift and evolving towards 'living well' lives for themselves. Clearly, what some of you need is Re-Training and inside these intentional groups, you could do that.

I cosign Anna's very insightful point that some bw do NOT want to be feminine and restrain themselves publicly because behaving femininely doesn't get them the instant gratification they want. Also, for some AA women, it's not safe to behave in a feminine way or the way the bulk of other women in the world behave--because those other women generally have males to protect them from opportunistic male predators. We cannot overlook the danger element--in some cases. This is another STRONG reason why every AA woman who is so inclined needs to mate out into healthier, normally behaving environments--in order to secure men who are willing to protect them and their children.

Also re attention-getting: among humans--who after all are wired to be social animals--it is a fact that negative attention is craved rather than no attention at all because when no one pays any attention to you, you don't really exist. In essence, you're dead.

At this point, from all reports, large numbers of AA women of all sizes and skin shades are generally NOT getting much active, positive attention from males. As Anna (I think) pointed out, some of the women she knows who are presumably behaving in all the right ways are puzzled as to why they can't get a guy (unless it's for a hookup). I get notes from AA women all the time regarding that.

Also, it always makes me shake my head when I read or hear some AA women blast wm for being ***too timid***to ask them out or ***not aggressive***enough and yadda, yadda--which is very non-strategic (I'll be nice--LOL!) behavior on the part of these bw, considering they do this towards the males who comprise 74% of the population of this country. SMH I've read long threads where bw rip wm to pieces about that!!! WHY do they do that and then ***expect*** wm to approach them and ask them out. That clearly shows that these women just don't get it!

Now hear this. If and when I blast any man PUBLICLY (as I do the DBRs, NVs, LVs), I'm directly telling him: do NOT approach me or anyone I care about. I-am-not-interested-in-you. If I wanted men of that sort to approach, I'd talk to them in an entirely different way, similar to the way Asian women publicly signal wm.

Regarding this so-called timidity of wm, just let predator-type men bother the daughters of these so-called timid wm and see what those so-called timid wm will do. LOL! It's these so-called timid wm who have made it possible and comfortable for their daughters, sisters, mothers, other ww, etc. to walk around behaving in a soft, feminine manner. Wm are the DRIVERS and protectors of that feminine behavior of ww.

SMH--Many AA women define masculinity in a VERY, VERY, VERY distorted and abnormal way, and they make that VERY clear. Just take a guess on which group of males mostly fit that definition. LOL! But these same women then actually wonder why other males don't approach them. That's another thing that I do NOT have in common with those of them who do that. I define masculinity in a VERY different way.

Evia said...

@DeStouet re:

And one of the many problems is that the two groups rarely talk.

And, I am willing to bet that type A, are those women who have not had proper guidance and a healthy upbringing and type B, just the opposite.


This is a very good point, but I'm a pragmatist. A large number of type As are VERY arrogant and are magical thinkers. I refuse to be endlessly engaged in infighting with arrogant, magical thinking folks when I don't have to be.

Strife is stressful and dangerous. The only people I'm willing to fight in order to help are my children.

If you are willing to go among the type As and get rid of their supreme arrogance, I know people, including myself, who'd be willing to teach them something for their own good. But even then, they'll have to reciprocate.

Unless it's Mother Theresa or other saint-types, typical ones of us who have common sense and lives of our own are not willing to fight with adults in order to help them. It's very narcissistic, abnormal, and the height of magical thinking for adults to think that other adults are going to put our lives on the back burner and devote large slabs of FREE time and energy to them without reciprocity. What I've found amazing about this group is that no matter how much you give them for FREE, they believe that they're ENTITLED (for some reason)and that you're supposed to give to them, without them reciprocating anything. LOL!

For ex. when I had my private paid blog that I charged approx. 33 cents a day to participate in, many bw who obviously felt I was saying something of value (since they ranted and raved that I wouldn't let them into the blog) vilified me, saying I should give to them for FREE. Mind you that I'd been giving to them for FREE for about 18 months even before I went private. To this day, I can't figure out WHY they thought that I should have given to them unconditionally forever. ONLY parents give to their children unconditionally and many parents don't even do that. But that's the only type of NORMAL relationship where unconditional giving occurs. In every other type of NORMAL relationship/interaction between humans, there is reciprocity.

Khadija said...

SouthlandDiva,

You said, "Another issue with the public face of bw is the portrayal of black women in the movies, television shows and commercials."-

True that. I can't tell what's causing this. I don't know if this is how those in control are writing these roles; or if these mannerisms are part of the lil' sumthin', sumthin' that some confused colored girl actresses do on their own. I've seen a couple of commercials where the Black actress did some (I would assume unscripted) stereotypical "sassy" mannerism that was not congruent with the lines she was speaking. All of this is quite annoying.
_______________________

DeStouet,

Just play back the tapes of the Flawless discussion, and those of the current Fitness Matters conversation. This is the reason why most people who know better can't be bothered trying to talk to those who don't. Most people are NOT going to fight with folks to help them.
___________________________

Evia,

I 100% co-sign your latest 2 comments. I haven't forgotten about your "oasis" idea. I'm still (slowly) reading a couple of books about setting up intentional communities. And I will eventually get around to doing a book report/executive summary post about those books.

Yes, I saw the online gnashing of teeth when your blog went to paid status. I was only vaguely aware of what you were doing at that point. Nevertheless, I found it odd that so many folks felt that you were somehow trying to ROB them by requiring a FAIR exchange of value for your work. And that's the way they were acting ***like somebody STOLE something from them!*** It was crazy.

Evia, first of all, as has been pointed out in earlier conversations, we are GIVING AWAY information of great value during these conversations. This really is serious mentoring that's happening here and at some other blogs (such as yours). In offline, real life this sort of actionable, life-enhancing information is NOT just tossed out there like this.

I don't help just any and every random person that wants my help. I carefully screen people to see if they are worthy of my assistance. And also to see what VALUE they're going to bring to me in exchange for my help. This is called reciprocity. I'm sure you do the same in your offline life.

Second, in the offline real world, folks pay a pretty penny for counseling to unravel issues that are worked through during these various conversations FOR FREE.

It is an act of charity for people to offer these kinds of HIGH-VALUE/IMPACT ideas, mentoring and feedback for free. People need to understand that.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

"This is a very good point, but I'm a pragmatist. A large number of type As are VERY arrogant and are magical thinkers. I refuse to be endlessly engaged in infighting with arrogant, magical thinking folks when I don't have to be."

Are we supposed to expect anything else from today's youth? What could we have expected from you, if your mother and grandmother did not pass on some of the valuable gems you have passed on to others?
Why are we expecting todays youth to exhibit the same kinds of qualities many of us have? We, who have been taught, submerged in a certain kind of thinking are suppose to surpass the “others”.

Am I missing something?

Does a lion expect her cub to be of ANY value to her pack, if she does not teach the cub the ways of the pack?

Granted, it seems like those of us who desire to live a life of abundance must distance ourselves from people who choose to live very destructive lives.

I also understand, the youth of today are on their own, because those of us who want to survive and thrive must always demand reciprocity. We believe in transaction, an exchange of goods. (Although I personally do not subscribe to that particular philosophy, because there is very little human interaction in a transaction). But in order to get ahead, we have to leave the sick, damaged, unhealthy part of us behind.

I understand all of it, except for me, there seems to be a sort of schizophrenic thinking within a few of the comments...something I can not quite put my finger on yet.

anna (teritary#anna) said...

@DeStouet

""This is a very good point, but I'm a pragmatist. A large number of type As are VERY arrogant and are magical thinkers. I refuse to be endlessly engaged in infighting with arrogant, magical thinking folks when I don't have to be.""

I think what was meant here was that there's a difference between the conversations that one has with like and unlike minded people.

I honestly believe that human nature never changes, and the attributes that we have are double-edges: they can be used for our destruction OR our salvation.

All of us have the tendency to be arrogant and combative: we need some elements of this to form a strong sense of self. We also have an innate need to form social groups. But because we all have these attributes, it's easy to confuse natural (and normal) strife with intractability. So it's easy to keep wanting someone to be in your social (mentally social) group, when they really don't want to be there. Just because someone is willing to engage you in an argument, doesn't mean that you're headed toward the same resolution: different people have different agendas.

This isn't a bad thing: even allies fight the same war differently. But you don't see the British army training the French (or even on the same part of the battlefield.)

The most strategic use of your resources is to identify potential allies, and then sort them: like minds, sympathetic minds, resistant minds, neutral minds. Each group requires a different input of resources.

I think you may be combining neutral with resistant minds. There are those who just need more information (especially those who are unaware of what they're losing in their current situation.) These are neutral minds. Resistant minds are intractable, and it's critical to disengage from them immediately, because while the first will change with more resources, the second is just a leak in the bucket. They look the same on the surface (minds that disagree with you) but the effect is vastly different.

And depending on your level of resources (including interest), is to aggressively triage them, so that you're using your resources in the most effective manner. So this may mean that even the neutral minds are not courted, unless they can directly achieve your goal.

Or sometimes, recruiting the neutral mind can't be done with one source, so one group pulls the weeds, the other prepares the soil, another plants the seed and another to water and collect the harvest. It's important to remember our own pathologies when trying to achieve a strategy, and in the (american) BW community, that pathology is that one woman does all things. So it's important to remember that the input of limited resources can still achieve long term goals.

Evia said...

DeStouet,
first of all let me repeat: Life is NOT fair and it NEVER has been. Life is also NOT easy and it has NEVER been. Every day, in nature, millions, if not billions, of innocent plants and animals die.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'm detecting that you're still under the assumption that others are SUPPOSED to pass on something and that it's somehow their fault if they don't pass it on. Sounds like you're saying that since no one passes on 'gems' to the youth or whoever, then they'll get back at us by self-destructing--as if that's hurting someone else.

People DO NOT care. People have their own lives that they must focus on.

I can tell from your comments that you and I have a very fundamental difference in how we view life. I believe that I'm SUPPOSED to seek out those things that will uplift me and make my life better. I know that people generally don't care whether I suffer, so why would I sit around with my mouth stuck out when people don't help me?

I believe that if I need or want something from you, I must contort MYSELF in order to get it from you. I must please you because I'm the one who needs something from you. I do NOT believe that you must contort yourself to give it to me, or fight with me to give it to me. After all, if I don't get what I need from you, I'm the loser. Not you. But it kinda, sorta sounds like you expect that people like me should fight to give valuable information away.LOL!

If you're an AA, I don't understand what experiences of yours have led you to believe that, but I haven't had your experiences. You sound like you're a member of the white ruling class. You sound ENTITLED to something??????

DeStouet said...

"If you're an AA, I don't understand what experiences of yours have led you to believe that, but I haven't had your experiences. You sound like you're a member of the white ruling class. You sound ENTITLED to something??????"

At this point, you're probably right. No one who is AA is entitled to anything. And those of us who do not go out and make a way for ourselves, will most likely perish --because as you've said, people have their own lives to focus on.

But at one time, they were entitled to something, therefore, my issue is with the generation that dropped the ball, not with today's youth. I save my ugly words for the parents of these children, not for the children themselves.

For example, when I take my son to the library for a book reading, and some 4 year old toddler stands up and smacks his mother in the mouth, I blame the parents, not the boy.

My bottom line is that it is the parents, and the community responsibility to teach a child the ways and the norms. And although you and I know the AA community no longer exists, I'm quite certain these children growing up are not aware they have been abandoned. That they are now being laughed at ridiculed and have been reduced to examples of "what not to do."

I also do not believe everyone has the ability to be a leader, to go against the grain. If we did, less of us Americans would be in debt, overweight, be unhappy in our current careers, marriages, religious affiliations, etc.

So it bothers me to hear women (although you have every right) who were raised up in caring loving environments to constantly bad mouth the large majority who were not raised in such a way.

Especially the children.

Khadija said...

DeStouet,

I think much of this is boils down to whether a person believes in free will, or not. I believe in free will. I believe that people are not machines with simple input-output equations. Each human being has the ability to interpret, filter, and CHOOSE what they produce as output.

You said, "But at one time, they were entitled to something, therefore, my issue is with the generation that dropped the ball, not with today's youth. I save my ugly words for the parents of these children, not for the children themselves."

No. Individual parents had individual duties to their OWN children. Not to any mythical group called "the youth." Not to anybody ELSE'S children. Also, the children have their OWN duties to themselves. When I was a teenager, I realized that past a certain age, it's up to each individual person to decide whether or not they want to REMAIN messed-up because of whatever bad choices their parents made. Everybody has free will.

As some of my older relatives always said, "Life ain't no crystal stair." As I've mentioned before, my paternal grandfather was a dirt-bag in terms of his wife and children. My Dad could have wallowed in self-pity about all the things he wasn't taught or told by my paternal grandfather.

If Dad had done that, I wouldn't exist because he would have ended up a loser unable to attract a woman like my mother. If Dad had done that, he NEVER would have made it out of poverty and into higher education, and the middle class.

My father had the same choice that every person has. Whether to sit and whine about what others didn't do for him. Or to make his own way in life. I praise God that he had the sense to make his own way.

[Let me note that I've seen born-wealthy Black losers sit around and whine also. This is why these sorts of Black folks are involved in downward mobility. There's ALWAYS something to whine about if we search hard enough. Or we can invent slights, and offenses to whine about.]

You said, "For example, when I take my son to the library for a book reading, and some 4 year old toddler stands up and smacks his mother in the mouth, I blame the parents, not the boy."-

If this boy chooses to continue on this path as a teenager and as an adult, then I blame HIM. Even most religions have an "age of personal accountability" for sins regarding children! And for some traditions, it's as young as 7 years old!

You said, "My bottom line is that it is the parents, and the community responsibility to teach a child the ways and the norms. And although you and I know the AA community no longer exists, I'm quite certain these children growing up are not aware they have been abandoned. That they are now being laughed at ridiculed and have been reduced to examples of "what not to do."-

No. It was never a "community's" responsibility. It was each parent's responsibility to their own children.

And when you speak of "abandoned," abandoned by whom? It reads as if you're suggesting that these children were "abandoned" by those of us who are NOT their parents. [Which is where this whole "community responsibility" notion leads to.]

NO. These children were the responsibility of their parents, and nobody else.

And in terms of "laughed at and ridiculed," where's the ridicule? See, this is part of the problem. Any statement pointing out what is wrong with these folks is heard as "ridicule." I don't find these sorts of people amusing at all. They are a THREAT and LIABILITES to the rest of us.

To me, this sort of reaction is upside down and backwards. These folks are actively harming our interests, some of them are even KILLING others of us, and the slightest honest mention of their flaws is perceived as "ridicule," "bad mouthing," and "laughing at them."

Let me point out who IS actually laughing at these folks: non-Blacks and non-AA Blacks.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Oh, and before anybody misinterprets my last comment, I don't blame some of these other folks for laughing. And let me stress that only SOME, not ALL, are laughing.

Weakness and dysfunction INVITE contempt.-

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

Yes, I would agree that it all boils down to whether we believe in free will or not.

I do believe in free will, but I also believe in the power of having a stable and healthy upbringing.

"No. Individual parents had individual duties to their OWN children. Not to any mythical group called "the youth." Not to anybody ELSE'S children. Also, the children have their OWN duties to themselves."

This is one of those moments that baffle me. When we speak about Asians, Africans and Islanders, we speak about the community. The things they teach/taught their children. Never once do I remember anyone making such separations about whose job it was to do what.

It has been a few side discussions here, about how Africans teach their young, how the Jewish people did such and such for the betterment/advancement of their future generation. But when we speak about AA children, it is up to the individual parent?

Felicia said...

"And although you and I know the AA community no longer exists, I'm quite certain these children growing up are not aware they have been abandoned."

Yes, it's very unfortunate that the majority of the fathers of these beautiful innocent black children have abandoned them.

That they've disrespected their mothers and their own responsibility as men. They've neglected to raise their sons to value BW. They've neglected to protect their daughters from these DBRBM who hate them.

It's all very unfortunate. IMO Whenever ANYONE online OR off suggests that the "black community" is responsible for problem X, Y, or Z, it should be pointed out that it's the majority of BM (thank GOD for the minority who are STILL taking care of business but they're obviously not making a strong enough impact on the masses of BM) who are truly responsible for most of the madness.

The majority who though their deafening SILENCE allow evil to prevail.

DBRBM's failures as fathers, leaders, protectors, etc...

Is what's truly responsible for the chaos. The last nail in the coffin.

IMO BW do not share an equal roll in this mess. Because at least most of these BW haven't abandoned these helpless children EN MASS the way DBRBM have.

That they are now being laughed at ridiculed and have been reduced to examples of "what not to do."

The thing is I think it's important for these BW/girls (they are the focus of our outreach) to REALLY understand and HEAR how they're being perceived.

There is a disconnect I fear because they obviously don't know the inappropriateness of their behavior and how it's damaging to them, because no one has told them.

So it bothers me to hear women (although you have every right) who were raised up in caring loving environments to constantly bad mouth the large majority who were not raised in such a way.

Destout,

I know it may sound like badmouthing, but can any of these observations be denied? The truth that is being told at these forums I believe is setting a certain percentage of these women/girls free.

Really, I think that's why things have gotten so out of control. Everyone's been afraid of "hurting the feelings" of those who are not functioning at a healthy level.

Now we're at a point where you have whole generations who've forgotten what healthy is.

I think those of us who still DO know what health looks like, should continue to express ourselves.

Will it always be politically correct and sensitive? I doubt it.

Because we all express ourselves differently.

But with the best of intentions I truly believe.

anna (teritary#anna) said...

@ Evia

"Many AA women define masculinity in a VERY, VERY, VERY distorted and abnormal way, and they make that VERY clear."

I agree. I think that if they've seen (or been taught to normalize) distorted behavior, they really just don't get that their defintion is off base.

I'll give an example from my own experience. A female friend (W) was in the early days of dating a boy, who had asked her to a dinner dance. She didn't want to go alone, so an arrangement was made that one of his friends and I would accompany them. The friend (W) and I were not dating.

I did not have a lot of male role models, and so my definition of "polite vs. interested" was skewed. So my friend and I are at her house when our dates arrive. My date brings flowers, and I put them in a vase...for my friend. I totally did not comprehend that a nice boy brings a girl flowers even if they're not romantically involved, so I didn't realize the flowers were for me.

The whole night proceeded similarly. He was gracious to me for the entire evening and I was totally baffled -- I actually rebuked him when he tried to get my chair! I thought he was either setting me up for an easy score, or just mocking me. I had just never seen a man treat a woman in a chivalrous manner, just because he was a polite person. My rebuke was an effort to protect myself, because I thought he was the deviant one!

This boy and I became friends later, in spite of my inadvertent boorishness. But I think the flowers had died by the time I figured out who they were for, lol.

Luckily, I made a pal in spite of my cluelessness, but had I behaved better, I might have had a boyfriend instead! (still kicking myself over that error, lol.)

There are some women who really just haven't seen normal male-female behavior modeled, so it's not that they are unwilling to change, but that they don't know there will be a positive outcome when they do. I'll call it gross ignorance of social norms outside of one's own (or even that there is a difference between social norms.) It's 101 knowledge, but speaking from my own experience, women raised with no, or poor male role models can be fundamentally lacking here.

The problem with 101 levels is that eventually it gets filled with something. So you learn the basics, and think you've got it covered, but you've merely built a foundation out of rotten wood.

It's not an excuse for their behavior, but an insight into where this mentality originates, so that it's easier to formulate a strategy to stamp it out (for those who are willing to do so.)

anna (teritary#anna) said...

Willing to stamp that behavior out of themselves. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Khadija said...

DeStouet,

You said, "This is one of those moments that baffle me. When we speak about Asians, Africans and Islanders, we speak about the community. The things they teach/taught their children. Never once do I remember anyone making such separations about whose job it was to do what.

It has been a few side discussions here, about how Africans teach their young, how the Jewish people did such and such for the betterment/advancement of their future generation. But when we speak about AA children, it is up to the individual parent?"
-

Felicia is correct. This issue really boils down to the presence or absence of REAL MEN within any group. AAs are failing because our males have failed to be real men.

These OTHER communities only exist as communities because the majority of these other men are individually fulfilling their roles as individual husbands and fathers.

The ONLY reason why this works with these other people is because a VAST MAJORITY of these other men are doing what they're supposed to do as individual men who are individual husbands and fathers.

A real community is made up of a collection of stable, real families. At the core of a stable, real family is a married couple taking care of their children.

Stable families create stable communities. Stable communities create a stable ethnic group. MEN functioning as men are the foundation of this. MEN regulate and police the behavior of other males. MEN rear their individual boys into healthy manhood. MEN prevent anarchy from breaking out. This is what makes a civilized lifestyle possible. A civilized lifestyle is what makes individual, and therefore group, advancement possible.

When there are a critical mass of enough MEN individually functioning as men, then there's no social anarchy. It's nipped in the bud by the prevalence of married, in-home husbands and fathers preventing the mass creation of sociopathic, savage males. Each husband and father is preventing HIS children from being savages. With enough separate individual men doing this for their individual families, then there are very FEW savages in that group.

In a stable race/group created by these individual MEN's behavior as husbands and fathers, there's enough "extra" left over to mentor those relatively FEW males in the group who had incompetent/absent/idiot sperm donors. They don't have to worry about protecting their children from total savages.

In the AA group there's nothing left over to spare for these unraised children. This is because there's not enough AA MEN functioning as men. This is how these unraised, barbaric AAs overran everybody else.

The few AA MEN that exist have their hands full just protecting their individual families from the effects and influence of unraised, savage AAs. There's nothing left over to spare for the children of random AA sperm donors.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

It has been a few side discussions here, about how Africans teach their young, how the Jewish people did such and such for the betterment/advancement of their future generation. But when we speak about AA children, it is up to the individual parent?

DeStouet, I don't know anything about the Jewish manner of interacting with each other as regards their children, but I have a LOT of experience interacting with Africans and other whites. For ex., I feel totally comfortable dealing with typical Africans (from anywhere on the continent) when it comes to dealing with their children because they have my same views.

This may NOT apply to all Africans but it applies to every single African man or woman I've ever dealt with over the years, as regards their children.

1. Africans I've interacted with believe that their children are their reward for living or something along those lines. So do I. I KNOW that many AAs don't believe that, or it's not apparent. So there's an instant disconnect between a typical AA parent and me about that or I don't know what a particular parent feels. I know that I cannot assume anything.
2. African parents EXPECT for you to discipline and guide their children properly if their children are with you and this means whipping some hips, if necessary. They expect you to treat their children the way you'd treat yours. I don't believe that typical AA parents feel that way. You definitely can't just assume they do. This means that I can guide and discipline a typical African child the SAME way I guide and discipline mine, which means no stress for me. This also means that I don't need to contort myself around African children, whereas many AA parents EXPECT others to contort themselves around their little AA children! That's an example of that entitled, ruling class attitude, as if I'm a servant of THEIR child or their child's new nanny. LOL!!

3. Since many AA parents don't know how to raise their children, they're hypersensitive about anything you do or say to their children. For ex., Darren was giving FREE pre-Algebra tutoring to a 13-year old boy from the church. Sometimes when Darren went to give the boy the lessons at the comm. center, the boy wouldn't be there. So I pointed out to the boy in front of his mother one day that when he's not going to be there for whatever reason, he must call Darren the night before and let him know so that my husband wouldn't waste his time going over there. The mother became annoyed with me and started making excuses for the boy, saying that none of us know in advance when things are going to come up. I told her that this was occurring every other Saturday and sometimes twice in a row and that it IS usually possible for most of us to indeed know in advance or the night before when there will be a conflict in our schedule. She didn't like "MY" attitude even though my husband was running over there to GIVE her son FREE lessons. SMH

Come on, folks!! Who is going to put up with this kind of mess? I wouldn't even be running around like that for my own child because I'd deal with that REAL FAST! She EXPECTED Darren to keep coming there even if her son wasn't there when all her son had to do was to call the night before. It was as if Darren was a member of her staff, and how dare I open my mouth!!!!! She is married to this boy's father, but the father is also clueless.

For sure, African and Jewish parents do NOT behave like this unless they're wackos!!!! This is a common arrogant, ENTITLEMENT attitude among a disproportionate number of AA parents. I could provide a few dozen examples of this type of attitude.

Khadija said...

Evia,

Old-school AAs had a similar shared understanding of what was expected from children. All of that unravelled starting in the 1960s. This "Don't say nuthin' to, or correct, my child" attitude is new-school; and the result of that unravelling.

This entitlement mindset is also new-school.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

ak said...

Hi Khadija

I apologize for any negativity. But going back to what you said about 'making more enemies' the bw I described are sometimes already willing to 'sacrifice you to the volcano' as someone who emailed Evia put it, from the email Evia posted on her website a week ago.

and PVW:

I was looking at Father's Day cards recently, and I saw in the section, a card with a picture of a black woman on it, but rather th an it being a card from a woman to a man, this was a "father's day card" for a woman, a mother who operated as a father. I wonder whether there were any like it in the generic or "white" section of cards.

It says a lot, what the state of the community has come to, with the prevalence of black women raising children alone, not because of widowhood, and not only because of divorce, but because of the inordinate numbers of single black mothers who have never married.



WOW PVW and that is a good point you know.

Khadija said...

AK,

No problem! *Smile*

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

Khadija, you said:

"Felicia is correct. This issue really boils down to the presence or absence of REAL MEN within any group. AAs are failing because our males have failed to be real men."

You're right, I can see where she hit the nail on the head.

Khadija said...

DeStouet,

Yep! It's that simple.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.