Sunday, January 25, 2009

Self-Purification: Run From Hateration and Arrogance

Enduring Victories Come From the Inside-Out

God has warned us that He will NOT change our condition until we change what is in our own hearts:

"Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls)." Quran, 13:11.

This is why lasting, positive change only comes from the inside-out. Enduring victories come from the inside-out. Black folks have tried various surface techniques over the past 50 years. For the most part, all we've done is exchange one form of oppression for another. We have exchanged an external oppressor in favor of internal ones. We have exchanged external violence in favor of internal violence. In politics, we have exchanged White political hacks for Black ones.

With each step, our collective condition has gotten worse and worse. African-Americans have completed roughly 80% of the process of becoming a permanent underclass in this country.

It's already too late for most of us. The mental habits that lead to self-destruction are too deeply ingrained in most of us. They are an airborne contagion within most Black families and ALL Black residential areas. This is causing the devastation that we see in Black residential areas. If you're not careful, these same mental habits will infect YOU and lead to a reduction of YOUR life opportunities. If you want abundance in your life, you will have to cleanse your mind of the negative thought patterns that have become a common part of African-American culture.

Hateration is one common thought pattern that you will have to purge from your heart and mind.

Hateration is a Satanic Trait

When Satan saw God giving the rank that he wanted for himself to Adam, Satan decided that he would not let Adam or the rest of humanity enjoy it:

"He said: As Thou hast adjudged me to be erring, I will certainly lie in wait for them in Thy straight path, Then I will certainly come upon them from before them and from behind them, and from their right and from their left; and Thou wilt not find most of them thankful." Quran, 7:16-17.

Do we all recognize this attitude? Because God gave humanity a blessing that was not bestowed on Satan, Satan decided to "hate on" humanity. He decided to wish for humanity to lose its blessings. He even decided to take this rancor a step further and work to have humanity lose its blessings!

Oh, I'm sure that we can all recognize this attitude. We see it all around us. For example, we see it in the culturally-approved hateration that a lot of Black folks (strivers and otherwise) have for the Black middle class and Black elite.

Stop Hating on the Black Middle Class and Black Elite!

Stop hating on other Black people because they were blessed to grow up in comfort! Stop adhering to false "acting Black values" that automatically characterize such people as the villians within the Black collective. On a practical level, this sort of hateration blocks the hater's access to abundance. It also hinders the progress of those haters who do work their way into the Black middle class.

[*Note to striving HATERS: We see the hateration that you have for us. Perhaps you might keep in mind that, for the most part, you are coming to us. We're NOT coming to you for anything. You are looking to join to our professional organizations. You are coming to our neighborhoods. You are looking to be counted as part of us. You're looking to get into settings that we established, not you. We see the damage that some of you are doing with your "keepin' it real" poses in professional settings. If you persist in your negative and disruptive behavior, more of us might decide to actively exclude you from the various things you're trying to gatecrash your way into.]

Furthermore, I would caution the believers that this attitude of hateration toward those who were blessed with material comfort is NOT rooted in scripture. In addition to the above, I would remind you that scripture mentions righteous believers who came from the affluent classes. I would also remind you that poverty does NOT ennoble people. There are plenty of wretched, evil individuals who are poor.

This does NOT mean that people should necessarily love and adore the Black middle class and the Black elite. Simply that we should stop hating others for their blessings. This mixture of envy and bitterness is a Satanic trait that has infected the Black poor and underclass. There are some other Satanic traits that have infected the Black middle class and elite.

Stop Holding People in Contempt for Their Humble Origins! This is Another Satanic Trait.

It's healthy and legitimate to be thankful for, and appreciative of, being born in good fortune and positive circumstances. And there are (legitimate) ranks of people based upon their efforts and accomplishments. This is not at all the same thing as believing oneself to be superior because of one's origins. Which is an attitude commonly found among the Black middle class and the Black elite.

It's one thing to have (justified) disdain for ignorant, "ghetto," "hateration" behavior. This is something quite separate and distinct from holding people in contempt because of their humble origins. Which is an attitude commonly found among the Black middle class and the Black elite.

To me, the overall attitude of these middle class and elite Negroes (past and present) is not only distasteful. It's Satanic. The Quranic accounts of Satan describe the same attitude of superiority because of one's origins.

To summarize the Quranic account:

At first, the angels and Satan quibbled with God about His decision to create a flawed creature such as humans. They pointed out that mankind would be disobedient and violent. Nevertheless, God created Adam and taught him "the names of all things." God then questioned the angels about the names of all things and their properties. The angels didn't know; but Adam answered all of the questions correctly.

God then commanded the angels to bow to Adam as a sign of respect. The angels all complied. Not Satan. Satan objected and refused to do so because he felt he was from superior origins. He held Prophet Adam in contempt, and belittled Adam for his humble origins. After all, (metaphorically) Satan was made from fire and Adam was made from (lowly) clay. Dirt, as far as Satan was concerned. As far as Satan was concerned, Adam was a "tourist" who didn't belong in God's, the angels' or Satan's presence.

Does this attitude sound familiar?

Holding people in contempt and belittling them for their humble origins is EVIL. Period. There is widespread evil within the Black poor and underclass. There is widespread evil within the Black middle class and the Black elite.

On a direct, worldly level, those of us born to the Black middle class and Black elite can get away with having these attitudes. Unlike Black strivers who are trying to get into our organizations and settings, we're not looking for anything from the Black poor. The Black poor and striving haters aren't in a position to chastise us. However, God IS. Those of us who are believers KNOW that there's always a price of some sort to pay for embracing evil. There might not be an obvious, direct line connecting these evil attitudes and negative events. But embracing evil does result in diminished blessings.

If you want abundance in your life, you will have to cleanse your mind of the negative thought patterns that have become a common part of African-American culture.

Hateration and arrogance are some common thought patterns that you will have to purge from your heart and mind.

67 comments:

Muse said...

Khadija,

When are you going to write a book?! Once again you brought the truth and I’m waving my fist in the air saluting you! As someone who grew up in an upper middle class environment, I’ve seen the best and the worst that the Black middle class/ elite has to offer. I’ve witnessed the Black elite treat someone with humble beginnings with disrespect without justification. On a positive note, I’ve personally witness the Black elite use themselves as resources to the less fortunate. As a Christian I realize that blessings are gifts from God and it’s very important that we remind humble. Nothing is guaranteed in this world and an act of kindness can change someone’s life for the better. I’ve always tried to give a helping hand to proactive individuals who are seeking and working diligently towards a better life. Everyone regardless of their socio-economic status should be treated with respect and dignity. On the same token I stay away from toxic individuals who seek to destroy all that is decent in the world.

This blog entry reminds me of the clash that exist in my sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha, between the Black elite and the Black underclass. There are two competing ideologies within the sorority which is why the organization continues to struggle and isn’t considered that prestigious anymore. There are members of the sorority who are genuinely interested in uplifting Black people, academic excellence, and being a service to mankind. On the other hand there is a segment of AKAs who have a gang mentality about initiation and don’t seek members who would represent excellence. These members are content with “stepping” and “pledging” instead of putting real work into the sorority.

Personally I have a distain for any person who is content with being mediocre. They take up unnecessary space and use valuable resources that could be used for someone else. These types of individuals are mentally lazy and only bring nothing of value to their relationships or society as a whole. Nevertheless, thanks again for the wonderful entry Khadija.

Khadija said...

*Warning---Very Long Response! LOL!*

Greetings, Muse!

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I truly appreciate it. I'm fed up with the hateration and arrogance antics that I see on display among our people. Last year, I decided to start taking a zero tolerance stance with this particular form of madness.

I will try not to foam at the mouth about Black Greeks in general, and the women of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated, in particular. You see, I pledged AKA in college. Here's the extremely abbreviated outline of how something that bizarre came to be:

1-I was a nonconformist throughout high school and college. My parents were afraid that I was going to grow up to be a "radical, bomb-throwing nut."

2-In the midst of joining the campus anti-apartheid group, I also decided to do a little something conformist to please them. So, I decided to interview for my aunt's sorority (AKA).

I calculated that I would be immediately rejected due to my (stank) attitude toward Black Greeks, and (punk rock version of Whitley Gilbert from A Different World) appearance.

3-So, I flounced into the interview process with an uber-haughty attitude, leather baggy pants, and safety pins throughout the rest of my clothes.

4-I never anticipated that my "profile" (light-skinned, middle class) would get me accepted onto the line despite me behavior during the interview process.

I also never anticipated that they would let me onto the pledge line with the (mistaken) intention of kicking my arrogant a**. They never anticipated that I'm not "skeered" and I'm "not the one."

5-After my initial shock at being accepted, I had originally planned to quit after hearing one night of mumbo-jumbo. During the first night, they pissed me off. There was an...incident [I won't go into details]. They were surprised by my reaction. One of the Big Sisters asked me, "Look, b****, when are you going to drop off of this line?"

6-I remained on the pledge line out of spite. My line name was "Ivy 'Tude" (for attitude). Ultimately, the Big Sisters made physical threats that they were all going to jump on me. I reacted... poorly [I won't go into details].

7-The Big Sisters called the national organization to have me removed from the pledge line. The adults at nationals laughed, and said "no" to their request. Apparently, there was some talk about how they finally "picked the wrong person."

So, I'm saying all of this to say that I'm quite familiar with the dynamics that you're describing. As I said in an earlier comment:

"Black fraternities and sororities have admitted folks in recent decades that would NEVER have been let in before. Black frats & sororities used to have a more elite profile. The same with Blacks in the professions. They have since been downgraded into common, and often no-class-at-all gatherings.

This is what happens when too many unassimilated, unreconstructed strivers are let into things---the quality drops. Dramatically. I saw this happen when I was in college 20+ years ago. They started letting project kids who were college students into the Black fraternities & sororities.

This is how gangbanger behaviors infiltrated the Black Greek organizations. This is when DEATHS caused by hazing started happening in noticably much larger numbers in Black Greek organizations.
Excluding project kids from these groups would have prevented this.

...It's okay to have strivers around in previously more upscale settings IF they are willing to adapt and adopt middle-class behaviors & attitudes. Like ALL previous generations of Black strivers did when they made the leap into the middle class.

It's NOT okay for them to come to middle-class environments & professions expecting everybody else to adapt to their slum behaviors & "hateration" of middle-class people. Everybody else's polite silence has allowed these unassimilated, dysfunctional strivers to think that what they're doing & their "hateration" attitudes are cool. It's not.

This is how you end up with striver Black attorneys thinking that it's okay to use Ebonics in court. And them copping an attitude when folks try to gently disabuse them of this notion.

I also start to wonder the following about dysfunctional strivers & their hateration for the Black middle class: 'Since you hate & resent us so much, why do you keep coming around us & our activities? Remember, you came to us & our environment. We were minding our own business. We never came to you for anything.'

If there was a way to discreetly "interview" folks to see where their heads are at, and then screen out based on that, I'd be all for it. But there's no way to "politely" interview.

...I can't think of a practical way the Black frats/sororities could have interviewed the project kids to see where their heads were at before they let them in. It would have saved some Black students' lives to keep ALL of the project kids out of the Black fraternities/sororities. Increased Black hazing FATALITIES were the result of letting these gangbanger-influenced kids into these groups about 25 years ago.

We can all see the result that our wholesale acceptance of such individuals has had on the Black collective and Blacks in the professions.

All of this is quite ugly & unpleasant to recount. It's even uglier to contemplate. But we have to start speaking the truth out loud if we're going to make headway in solving our problems.

If someone has a better idea than exclusion to help get our people on track, please let me know. I'm all ears."


We need to start seriously screening and excluding people on the basis of their ATTITUDES & BEHAVIORS. We have allowed too many destructive people from both categories (the haters and the arrogant) into our circles.

Both groups have destroyed many of our already-weak institutions. That's what's so sad about what has become of the Black Greek organizations. Waaay back in the day, these organizations really did serve a purpose despite their (often paper bag test) snobbery.

They gave mutual support to their members. And gave organized charity to the type of people (poor, dark-skinned) that they typically excluded from their groups.

Collectively, we have allowed both categories of nuts to destroy these groups (along with many other Black organizations) from the inside out! That's a large part of why we are collectively circling the drain.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymous said...

"If you persist in your negative and disruptive behavior, more of us might decide to actively exclude you from the various things you're trying to gatecrash your way into.]"


What power do you really feel that middle class blacks and so called "elites" have where you could "exclude" certain blacks?Maybe into the sororities, fraternities, etc...Middle class blacks or the black elite dont have the power to stop someone from getting what they want--especially if they have got it going on...

I totally agree with you that the attitudes of blacks need to change toward each other. The black middle class or so called "elites" cannot affect whether other blacks get ahead. They dont have that kind of power at all. A lot of the MOST successful blacks actually received most of their opportunities from whites. They did not have to join AKA or Delta, Jack n Jill or "get in good" with the Links or "black elites".

Those environments are pretty sick anyway.

I am pretty successful and so is my sister. My sister is VERY successful. We both feel much disdain for blacks who look down on others. I have done well in business and am very well off financially. I have been approached by the Deltas and Links in my area. I did not want to be bothered!

My sister has a PhD is pretty accomplished, well known and respected (around the world) in Academia. She has been approached by the AKA's and other elitist black organizations. Neither she nor I need them!!!

I have dated very successful FOREIGN black men who come from poverty. These men were doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc. I will tell you that they did not get where they were because the "black elite" helped them get ahead. They did not hang out in those circles. They socialized mostly with other black foreigners and whites. They are where they are because of their intellect and determination.

I have a girlfriend who is a successful, ivy league educated attorney (from Compton) and she has never socialized with the "black elite". She is successful because of intellect and determination.

Your comments actually remind me of a scenario I experienced a few years ago when I was in my 20's. I landed a job in a position and company where you dont see too many minorities--let alone blacks. Well anyway, I was away at a quarterly business meeting and met one of the other young blacks at the company. She was light with light eyes and from a pretty prominent background. I am dark skinned and from a working class background. When I met her she was not that warm toward me. However, I was a big hit with the WHITES!! I was as (if not more) attractive than this girl. I worked my way up that ladder. I became the most successful black in my region and have since left that company for a better opportunity.

Considering the financial landscape of America today, we should all be careful about looking down on others!

I can tell you blacks dont have the type of power that you mention in your comment.

Fortunately, I have never experienced problems in attaining any of my goals. I never had to be connected to any so called "black elites".

I would hate for lower class blacks to think that they have to be accepted by (or kiss up to) more successful blacks to get ahead. They dont have that kind of power. Yes one can always help another person. There will always be someone willing to assist you if you help yourself and reach out. And even if you receive resistance from certain whites... just remember... one monkey dont stop no show!!!! Nothing can stop you!!!

Also look at who is the most powerful couple in the WORLD!!! Barack Obama is from a single parent home. His father left his mother. They lived on food stamps!!! Michelle is DARK skinned, working class, sister from the South Side of Chicago. They are where they are because of intellect and determination.

Anonymous said...

They gave mutual support to their members. And gave organized charity to the type of people (poor, dark-skinned) that they typically excluded from their groups.


Oh excuse me. I did not realize that you needed charity if you were dark skinned...LOL!!!

Khadija said...

Greetings, Anonymous!

You said, "What power do you really feel that middle class blacks and so called "elites" have where you could "exclude" certain blacks?Maybe into the sororities, fraternities, etc...Middle class blacks or the black elite dont have the power to stop someone from getting what they want--especially if they have got it going on..."

Response: Come on now, Anonymous...tell the truth...

The truth is that acceptance into the Black Greek organizations and Black professional organizations IS what a LOT of striving haters want. We CAN keep them out of the various chapters of these organizations if we want.

Not to mention that a large chunk of these hating strivers DON'T "have it going on." Like the striver Black attorneys I've seen use Ebonics in court. When things go wrong with such persons' professional careers (often self-inflicted wounds), who do they run to for help? The SAME Black professional organizations that they often want to join.

When previously "beloved by White folks" hater-strivers have their White folks turn on them, who do they run to for help? The SAME Black professional organizations.


You said, "The black middle class or so called "elites" cannot affect whether other blacks get ahead. They dont have that kind of power at all. A lot of the MOST successful blacks actually received most of their opportunities from whites. They did not have to join AKA or Delta, Jack n Jill or "get in good" with the Links or "black elites"."

Response: I agree. This is all the more reason for the striver-haters to STAY FAR AWAY from our groups and settings. Please tell the striver-haters to stay away because they don't need to be involved in these groups/organizations in order to get ahead.

Once you help encourage more of the striver-haters to stay away, then maybe we can restore these groups to functional status.


Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Anonymous,

Because you're starting to play the "nut role," we're coming close to the end of our exchange.

You know and I know... that in previous decades color had a strong correlation to economic class.

You know and I know...the historical reasons for this, so I need not repeat them here.

You know and I know...that this correlation was strong during the era when the Black Greek organizations were founded.

You know and I know... that much of our early leadership was light-skinned for this very same reason. You know, folks like Adam Clayton Powell, Whitney Young, Ralph Bunche, Edward Brooke, etc.

If you cannot participate in this conversation in good faith, then I invite you to leave the conversation.

And in fact, you might just inspire me to refuse to post anonymous comments for this particular conversation. Find the courage to claim your own comments.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

*Readers' Note: I've decided to enforce some accountability with this conversation. This means that I will NOT post any more anonymous comments. People should find the courage to stand behind their own opinions.*

Yvette said...

Actually, Barack and Michelle are strivers... they are not the black elite. That is why they are so down to earth!!! Barack said during the night of the election that they are regular, neighborhood people. So I know that you wont post this !!!

You wont post this because it is hard for you to accept that the MOST powerful man in the WORLD is married to a dark woman!!!

The most powerful couple in the WORLD!!! Barack Obama is from a single parent home. His father left his mother. They lived on food stamps!!! Michelle is DARK skinned, working class, sister from the South Side of Chicago. They are where they are because of intellect and determination.


I am sure that you wont show this comment but you forgot to mention the hateration that darker skinned blacks experience from lighter skinned blacks. In particular lighter women. Because you are so used to being put up on a pedastal you are blown away when a good catch is with a darker skinned sister. Case in point on the latest DL Hughley special this flat nosed, light skinned, light eyed woman compliments Michelle Obama then she tried to put her down. She says that Michelle is not that attractive and luckily the brother jumps in and cuts that off!

Kind of what you are trying to do here. There is definitely a hateration from light women over Barack having a dark woman. I have been hearing the comments a lot lately. You feel that all men should desire you and that is not ALWAYS the case. It was just recently that I realized how black men dont always treat light women well!

You say that you are for black people uniting but it sounds like deep down inside...you really think that you are better!

And I have never tried to join a sorority but I would not have a problem. I am attractive and well spoken. I come across really well to blacks and whites! Community service is something that I have been involved with since I was a teenager. I know that you would like to think that I am some angry, uncuth, ghetto dark skinned chick so you could just dismiss me. But you have it all wrong honey. I am sure that I would run circles around you. And if being light was so great why dont you have a man? I mean I know that we lowly dark women are supposed to be alone. What is your story? LOL!!!

You know and I know... that much of our early leadership was light-skinned for this very same reason. You know, folks like Adam Clayton Powell, Whitney Young, Ralph Bunche, Edward Brooke, etc.

That is the same argument that white people could make if they wanted to feel superior to blacks that the early leadership in America...the only leadership were white men.

Well that is not the case in 2009!!!. And as I said the most powerful black man in the WORLD is married to a dark skinned, working class black woman from South of Chicago.

I could care less about the complexion of the early leadership. Maybe that is something that you can tell yourself to make yourself feel better!!!

Chi-Chi, The Original Wombman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Khadija said...

Greetings, Yvette (formerly known as "Anonymous")!

You obviously haven't spent much time visiting this blog. I would suggest that you read just a little bit more before you presume to know what my "deal" is. Let me give you just one example of how off-base your assumptions are:

Kindly take the time to read a post (and my comments) I did on 12/24/2008. It's entitled, {drum roll}

Self-Determination, Part 1: My Dark-Skinned Sisters, STOP Letting Biracial-Bicultural-Multicultural-Light Skinned Women Wear YOUR Stolen Crown!"


Kindly don't come back to this conversation until you've read it! For now, please excuse me while I laugh at how ill-informed & off-kilter your assumptions are.

{loud gales of laughter}

[By the way, as I've mentioned before when relevant, Michelle O. went to the same magnet high school (at the same time) as I did. You see, there are only a few public schools in Chicago that Black middle class parents are willing to send their children to. So, I know a little bit more about her background environment than you do...]

{deeply amused chuckles}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Chi-Chi!

Yep. All of this boils down to attitudes and behaviors. And people with certain toxic, destructive attitudes and behaviors need to be purged from our lives, organizations and activities.

Our current cultural concept of having an open door no matter how somebody is acting has brought us to collective ruin. On many levels.

If we want abundance as individuals, we must cleanse ourselves of both toxic attitudes. If we want collective abundance and progress, we must cleanse any and all organizations that we participate in of both types of nuts.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

"Yvette,"

One other detail that you've (perhaps deliberately) missed is that the post is talking about Black strivers who are haters, NOT strivers in general. The post is about hateration and arrogance, NOT striving.

Try to read without letting your defensiveness about your hateration distort your reading comprehension.

Peace.

diva said...

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but this classism and colorism is very Anti-Obama!!

Khadija said...

*Reader's Note* Upon reflection, I see that I'm going to have to start posting introductory comments to all class issues posts, such as the following:

If you are unfamiliar with this blog, please take the time to catch up, and read the posts tagged "Class Issues" BEFORE commenting. Please also take the time to read the Self-Determination series BEFORE commenting.


There are nuances with these situations that are under discussion that I don't enjoy repeating anew for each conversation.

Furthermore, please refrain from engaging in straw man arguments. From Wikipedia:

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.

While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted."


Mentioning persons, groups or events [such as some of our earlier (mis)leaders] is NOT the same thing as endorsing them.

Take the time to catch up with earlier conversations about these topics. Then it's possible to have an informed disagreement with my actual positions, as opposed to disagreements based on faulty assumptions.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

ActsofFaithBlog said...

This is a timely discussion. I just wrote a post on why Ebonics and the current of crop of Black shows are just atrocious and a commenter who happens to host a blog as well said I was being classist. I agree with her to a point but I'm advocating Black people having standards not clowning all the time. When I was younger I was envious of those friends whose parents had it together financially enough that they could live a 'regular' middle class lifestyle and not worry about the staples or paying for school, but that was because my parents' lack of planning negatively impacted me. As an adult one my main thrusts in life is having freedom and being "free" to live my life by standards I've decided on my own. I still have some work to do and healing, but I also get it that it's past the time to move on and go get "mine"! I can have freedom and not be tied money and status to define my worth. There are those who have a lot materially who are not kind, but there are poorer folks who allow their children to kill others for the things they have. Cain and Abel had beef so we can see this continues. If more people stopped coveting they wouldn't hate: then what would the celebrities do! No one would accept their branding attempts at being cool and pushing products onto those than can least afford them! As to the negativity: it is very toxic. Feeling beat down by life and w/o support is soul crushing. The economy has nearly collapsed and it's going to get worse before it gets better. Being mad about not having the latest Kanye sneakers or McMansion is not where's it's at right now! Those relationships with the "in the know" may mean the difference between barely getting by and thriving.

daphne said...

Take the time to catch up with earlier conversations about these topics. Then it's possible to have an informed disagreement with my actual positions, as opposed to disagreements based on faulty assumptions.

Well said, Khadija. Yvette/Anonymous just went on some strange rant that was completely irrelevant to the post. It almost felt like she's been holding some stuff in, particularly about light/dark skinned women and the enmity between them. Mercy.

Anyhoo,
I come from a working class background, so I've not always been aware of the nuances of class. I'm learning. You, Lisa, Evia, and others have done a great job with bringing these issues to the forefront.

Confession: I have experienced both sides of situation: I've hated on upper middle class/elites in the past, and have felt as though I was looked down upon because of my working class background. That said, I've unknowingly become friends with those who, I discovered later, would be considered among the black upper middle class or elite, and they're some of the least snobbish people I know. If anything, I think they try too hard to be accepting of all types of behavior, probably because they don't want to be perceived as anti-black. In addition, some of those I know who sip the haterate regularly are the strivers you've referenced. Bad behavior is bad behavior, and it's time to call a spade a spade. Dancing around an issue doesn't make it less so.

I'll admit to not being as nonconformist as you and other black women bloggers (I have struggled with desperately wanting acceptance from others in my teens and early 20s), but dang it, reading frank posts such as this one make me giddy, even while challenging my way of thinking at times. Thank you.

daphne said...

Found a typo after I hit submit:

Haterate should be haterade. Sorry. Hee.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Faith!

You said, "I just wrote a post on why Ebonics and the current of crop of Black shows are just atrocious and a commenter who happens to host a blog as well said I was being classist. I agree with her to a point but I'm advocating Black people having standards not clowning all the time."

Response: This is a major problem. Culturally, we've become so (unduly) protective of the Black poor and underclass (AND their dysfunctions) that we have made them sacred cows that cannot be questioned. This is a large part of why AAs are collectively falling into the abyss.

You said, "When I was younger I was envious of those friends whose parents had it together financially enough that they could live a 'regular' middle class lifestyle and not worry about the staples or paying for school, but that was because my parents' lack of planning negatively impacted me."

Response: Thank you for your candor. Envy is a normal, human response to being deprived of that which we want. We ALL have flashes of envy from time to time. It's healthier to resist these natural impulses, and focus on what one can do to remedy one's situation.

The problem is that AAs have made a virtue of venting mass envy toward the Black middle class and elite. AAs vent hateration and make excuses instead of working to remedy our problems. This behavior pattern creates multiple problems.

You said, "I still have some work to do and healing, but I also get it that it's past the time to move on and go get "mine"!"

Response: {raised fist salute} We ALL have our various issues to deal with. The point is, as you said, to move on and get ours! Clinging to hateration and arrogance blocks this process of moving on to get ours. That's the practical reason why we must run from these traits.
____________________

Greetings, Daphne!

You said, "Yvette/Anonymous just went on some strange rant that was completely irrelevant to the post. It almost felt like she's been holding some stuff in, particularly about light/dark skinned women and the enmity between them. Mercy."

Response: I also had the same "take" on all of that. MANY of us are "holding stuff in" because there's no real venue for honest discussion of these matters. Historically, we've papered over a lot of problems, and the wounds that these problems have inflicted.

I want this think tank to be a place where BW can openly process, and then lay down, these burdens. That can't happen when folks are so invested in their wounds that they can't hear what's actually being said.

Actually, I do feel for "Anonymous/Yvette." I have the impression that there's a LOT underlying her angry response. I hope that she'll take the time to catch up with earlier discussions, catch her breath, re-read the post, and rejoin the conversation.

You said, "That said, I've unknowingly become friends with those who, I discovered later, would be considered among the black upper middle class or elite, and they're some of the least snobbish people I know. If anything, I think they try too hard to be accepting of all types of behavior, probably because they don't want to be perceived as anti-black."

Response: Yep. Many of us have maintained a polite silence in the face of the hateration. That's OVER for me. I see the damage that this polite silence has caused---it has allowed this madness to become entrenched in AA culture.

You said, "Bad behavior is bad behavior, and it's time to call a spade a spade. Dancing around an issue doesn't make it less so."

Response: This is exactly my point!

You said, "I'll admit to not being as nonconformist as you and other black women bloggers (I have struggled with desperately wanting acceptance from others in my teens and early 20s), but dang it, reading frank posts such as this one make me giddy, even while challenging my way of thinking at times. Thank you."

Response: You're welcome! Don't feel bad about not having been an (on the surface) non-conformist. I'm definitely NOT the romantic heroine of any of these college episodes. Like much of life, these were situations where everybody involved was WRONG.

Actually, I'm appalled when I recall much of my college behavior. Here are the main points of what was WRONG:

1-I was ALSO arrogant. Just not in the same manner (or for the same reasons) as what I'm describing in this post. I was arrogant in the sense of belittling something (acceptance into these sorts of groups) that was very important to the rest of those young women involved in the Black sororities. It was WRONG of me to "fart on their parade."

Since I didn't care for, or about, any of that Black Greek stuff, I should have just stayed away. Instead of coming around while knowing that I would be a nuisance to them. I should have found another way of doing something conformist that would be pleasing to my parents.

2-There came a point when I realized that doing the opposite of what the crowd is doing is the SAME as conforming to the crowd. Both practices are done in response to other people's decisions, NOT done as the result of one's own thoughts.

3-I was blessed to have parents who provided a foundation that made the self-confidence to NOT care about these sororities, etc. possible. I was self-assured because of what my parents made possible for me. Others didn't have that while growing up.

Even though they were doing wrong, it was SHAMEFUL of me to have bounced into the middle of those girls with a sneer on my face. Looking back, I'm deeply ashamed of that behavior. Even though they were wrong, I should have had some compassion for them. Instead, I had a sneer and an attitude. That was FOUL.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Felicity said...

Khadija, this is the first time. I have visited your blog. Thank you for speaking out, the truth. You deserve a big hand clap. When you speak evil against another person, you cut yourself off from God and what makes me laugh, some of them are still talking ill and they are too blind to see their lives is in a mess. They walk in darkness!

Once again, thank you!

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I hear you, loud and clear, Khadija!

I don't hate elite people, and I don't hate people of humble origins.

My momma and daddy raised me right, that all people deserve respect, and never contempt, especially when they are people who have values and integrity, people who are to be respected, even admired, and treated with common courtesy.

My parents were immigrant strivers, and by the time I came around, they were middle class. So I was raised middle class, but I have not forgotten that there are people in my extended family who are still struggling, ie., working class living in the U.S., or who don't live in the U.S., and who are struggling lower middle class/working class.

That does not mean, though, that I will not call out foul behavior when I see it. I just don't feel contempt for people who are doing their best to survive, thrive, and live with integrity.

So none of that haterade here. I respect my ancestors and my relatives and refuse to feel contempt for them.

I was thinking of this recently, especially since I have decided to donate my time and money to causes that benefit black women and children.

I have decided to give money to organizations that help homeless women and striving women who are interested in pursuing higher education.

There by the grace of God I go. Many have contributed to my efforts, so I have an obligation to pass it on. We have no idea of where we might wind up, when we might need a hand. I gladly give for that reason.

Yvette said...

Not that it matters any...but my mother has been a part of one of these so called "black elite" organizations for over 40 years. A much older sister and brother are part of a sorority and fraternity and I mean they pledged over 30 years ago. I have a first cousin who is President of an alumni chapter of a sorority who pledged at Howard probably 30-35 years ago. I would have no problems getting into any organization that I chose. My mentor from undergrad has a wife who is a VERY prominent politician who would love for me to be a part of her organization.

If you are from such a prominent background, you would not feel the need to spout out how middle class you are. To most whites you are just a nigger. Your type tries to hide that black on black snobbery from whites because you know that whites would laugh at you and call you on it.

I DO AGREE WITH YOU ON SOME POINTS. MY PROBLEM IS THE COMMENT THAT YOU MADE ABOUT KEEPING PEOPLE AWAY FROM SOMETHING...AS THOUGH YOU HAVE SOME REAL POWER...LOL...IT IS ALL IN YOUR MIND!!!


Makes me wonder...LOL...Someone who is really from a prominent background would not need to make the remarks that you have been making. And whether or not you attended the same magnent school with Michelle or not, she is not elitist and neither is Barack. You are one of those people who try to act like you are trying to bring us all together but you have a bit of a superiority complex. This might have something to do with your weight problems. Thank God I have never had that problem!

If anything, I have been described as regal and graceful because of my height, shape and stature. I guess that because of that I dont really have to take the time out and worry about the backgrounds of other people. You are probably one of those short, fat, light skinned, pug nosed chicks that nobody pays attention to... so you have to worry about social class to make yourself feel better...I know the type!

I am sure that you definitely wont post this and I will not be posting again.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Felicity!

You're welcome! I think that it's best to deal directly with the (often unflattering) truth.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.
______________________

Greetings, Pioneer Valley Woman!

You said, "My momma and daddy raised me right, that all people deserve respect, and never contempt, especially when they are people who have values and integrity, people who are to be respected, even admired, and treated with common courtesy."

Yep, my parents raised me the same way. The only distinction between people is based on behavior and character.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.
___________________

Hello there (for the last time), "Yvette"!

It's quite apparent that you're mostly responding to your own internal stimuli and issues. As opposed to anything that is actually being said here.

Now, the only thing that was actually said that you're reacting to is the "Note to Striving HATERS." It's interesting to me that your mind seized upon the "Note to Striving HATERS." I guess that would be an accurate description of YOU, since you're the only one who's bent out of shape about that simple statement of reality.

Let me repeat a more detailed statement, just for your benefit:

People with your hateration attitude are easily identified by other Black professionals. For the most part, we've maintained a polite silence in response to your spite and your venting.

For the most part, those of us FROM the middle class settings (that folks like you tend to desperately want validation from) tolerate your presence. However, your hateration is wearing thin on the many of the rest of us. People like you are starting to do noticeable, intolerable damage to our image in the professions. Like the hater-striver-attorneys I've seen use Ebonics in court.

Hater-strivers like you are increasingly seen as a LIABILITY. The conversations that I hear around me are changing. Many are growing weary of haters like you and your toxic presence.

Striver-haters often mess up at work because they're carrying around so much mental baggage that they can't think straight at work.

One manifestation of this is the "Head Negro in Charge" syndrome that I discussed in an earlier post. Another manifestation is the uncontrollable urge to lash out at people that you perceive to be your "betters." You know, like you've been doing here. People like you also tend to use work titles and professional titles as magic totems for validation.

NONE of this behavior is a "good look" professionally. It does not go unnoticed. Eventually, there are consequences that catch up with folks like you. Such as the loss of goodwill from those of us that you hate on.

I can see that you're not used to being called on your envy and hateration. I don't believe your claims regarding your family background. You're just too frantic and hysterical at the very thought of being excluded because of your hateration.
Also, you're somebody who was hiding behind total anonymity until I enforced (minimal) accountability. That's NOT the behavior of a self-confident, self-assured person.

You claim to know my "type" based upon your misapprehension of the viewpoints being expressed here. Just off of your straw man arguments regarding color, it's obvious that you don't. Then you discovered (after I directed you to the earlier post from December) that your assumptions are totally off-base. Twice, you have told me that I wasn't going to post your comment. And twice, you have been in error about that.

No, you don't know my "type." And you haven't been able to comprehend the plain statements of my views.

And yet you still can't let your hateration go. {shaking my head} It's good that you say you're not going to post here again. Since your reading comprehension is impaired by your spite, this is not the place for you.

Good luck and God bless.

Aisha said...

Yvette,

There is a Caribbean saying that goes something like, "If you a throw a stone in a pig pen, whoever squeals, that's who it hit."

Essentially, you are reacting so strongly to this post because you see something of yourself in the description of "striving haters." Your obsession with light skin/dark skin is actually disturbing, especially since Khadija already referenced a previous post she made regarding this issue.

You my friend, have a major inferiority complex. Remember, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." (Eleanor Roosevelt)

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said...

Salaam Khadija,

I don't have much to add. I did want to say that this is the type of message I wish to hear when going to the masjids.

To me this is how you make the deen empowering, relevant, and modern.

Thanks
Salaam

Khadija said...

Wa Alaikum As Salaam, Sister Seeking/Miriam!

Thank you for your kind words about the post. I truly appreciate it. The fact that, of all people, I feel the need to start "preaching" about certain issues shows how far out our collective situation has become! It also reflects how incompetent our professional clergy are (for the most part).

Collectively, we're in a LOT of trouble. Only those of us who actively reject the faulty mental habits that are encouraged among us will survive and thrive.

Wa Salaam.

Evia said...

This is a major problem. Culturally, we've become so (unduly) protective of the Black poor and underclass (AND their dysfunctions) that we have made them sacred cows that cannot be questioned. This is a large part of why AAs are collectively falling into the abyss.

Khadija, this is so ON POINT!!! In general, thank you for being YOU and for both making the decision AND having the courage to speak out about this nonsense. You are rare.

As we know, 'courage is not the absence of fear,' instead it means to do things even when we are afraid. I'm afraid most of the time, but I will never allow my fear to stop me from talking out against this nonsense or from doing anything that is good for me and mine in the long run.

BIG thanks also for ALL you do here to uplift all of us bw. I talk a lot on my site about what bw need to do and why, and yadda-yadda, but YOU give bw the tools, the ***details*** of HOW to rebirth and rejuevenate.

In the long run, if the suicidal black underclass is not put in check, Rwanda IS going to occur, as you've been warning because SOME of them harbor such ill will towards the Black middle class. They don't ever articulate honestly articulate WHY they're so angry. Your commenter, Yvette, for ex. obviously is furious that she wasn't accepted or (mis)perceived that she was rejected by the Black middle class, yet she screams that she doesn't care about being accepted. LOL! So then, what is the purpose of all of the shrillness at the Black middle class clubs and organizations? Why doesn't she just ignore them? If these organizations are such "nothings," then she appears foolish for investing so much emotional energy in them.

Like you, I also rejected membership in the sororities and eventually pledged one due to my aunt's pressure. I too thought they were silly at the time, so I didn't stick with the one I pledged. I now realize how important it is to be a part of organizations, clubs, etc. even if we don't agree with every lil thing they do--even if the organization is flawed. The ONE thing I remember from the Million Man March was Min. Farrakhan pointing out the importance for AAs to belong to organizations.

On purpose, I mingle sometimes among the "black underclass," because I will always be a social scientist. LOL! I WANT to know the "illogic" behind their destructive, suicidal thoughts and behaviors. I can blend in well among people from the highest on the social ladder to the lowest.

The black underclass tends to be VERY angry and spiteful. They always feel that someone is looking DOWN on them--even when others aren't even thinking "at all" about them. So they are always on the lookout for a slight or a snub. Therefore, people like me have to be very careful in what we say around them. I've mentioned that I got ripped to pieces for slipping and saying to a group of young bw in the black underclass area near me that they should never date ex-cons. LAWDY! I was called a snob and accused of looking down on bm who are ex-cons. Whew!

Many of these black underclass folks simply have an ***inferiority complex.*** Therefore, it doesn't take much for INFIGHTING to break out among them or with others (especially other blacks) who they feel "look down on them."

It is a rock-solid belief of mine that no one can look down on me because I'm not "DOWN there." Someone might think they're looking down on me, but that's "THEIR STUFF." So I never even think about things like that. No one can make me feel "less-than." Therefore, I feel comfortable in the so-called highest echelons of white, African-American, or African society--although I realize that some of those folks may have a superiority complex when they view me--a natural-haired, brown-skinned woman who is obviously of African descent.

The typical underclass person doesn't realize that a major part of their notion that others are looking down on them is because they feel "less than" themselves. They therefore project that feeling onto other people and then want to fight.

This woman who is lashing out at you is actually fighting with herself. This has nothing to do with you, but we shouldn't ever subject ourselves to this toxicity if we can avoid it. Since I didn't cause any black person to be underclass, I decided I would stay away from these young bw who I warned about ex-cons.

This is EXACTLY why it's best for different classes of people or people who are not likeminded enough to mainly remain apart from each other. Neither you nor I, nor anyone should be ripped up and lashed at simply because we're trying to help others. SMH Despite all YOU have done with your writings here to lift up ALL black women, you now have someone who's trying to beat you down. This is exactly why I censor these folks out on my site. Since they don't need us or want anything from us--as she continues to say--they need to go and remain with others "of their kind."

Khadija said...

Greetings, Evia!

You said, "BIG thanks also for ALL you do here to uplift all of us bw. I talk a lot on my site about what bw need to do and why, and yadda-yadda, but YOU give bw the tools, the ***details*** of HOW to rebirth and rejuevenate."

You're welcome! And THANK YOU for all the work that YOU'VE been doing for years! I don't know how you've done this sort of work for so long. I've only been blogging for a few months, and it feels like years. I would suggest that your audience take heed while your "shop" is still open. There will come a point when we will all individually "close up shop," and devote ALL of our attention to our own lives.

I've mentioned this before, but I cannot repeat it enough: I was extremely disoriented after I snapped out of my Black Nationalist trance (in large part due to the Dunbar Village Atrocity and its aftermath). After I saw my previous, long-held ideology shatter into a million shards, reading your essays helped me greatly in reorganizing my thoughts about the TRUE nature of the AA collective. THANK YOU.

You said, "In the long run, if the suicidal black underclass is not put in check, Rwanda IS going to occur, as you've been warning because SOME of them harbor such ill will towards the Black middle class."

They will also destroy anybody and everybody who is in close proximity to them. As they're doing right now. They are also the world's biggest crabs in a barrel. They don't want anybody around them to escape into a better life. I have watched their behavior patterns over the years. I'm a service provider for the Black underclass at work. I have no illusions about them.

As you noted, their obsession with looking for "reasons" to feel that others are looking down on them is mostly internal. As I have repeatedly told many of my clients over the years:

"Nobody CARES enough to pay attention to you--or anybody else--like that. Most people are preoccupied with their OWN lives. Nobody's thinking about you--or anybody else--until you give them a reason to do so. Such as by getting in their face talking about how you think they're looking down on you. THAT'S when bad things start to happen."

Most of them just won't comprehend this. Even after they create the same negative interactions (everywhere they go and with every conceivable "type" of person) over and over again.

Rwanda IS coming. It has already started in certain quarters (Dunbar Village, the horrific British case involving Negroes in the UK that Halima recently mentioned on her blog, etc.).

I've read disturbing analyses about how most economic depressions last up to around 7 years. 7 YEARS!!! We've just started our 2nd Great Depression in the US. For a variety of reasons, AA women's lives are in increasing danger. The time to "make that move" (mentally, spiritually, physically) is NOW. Before it's too late.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Beverly said...

Khadija,

I just finished reading Yvette's nasty post about your (possible) physical appearance. This woman/man is a TROLL. Please don't take this the wrong way; because I would never try to tell you how to run your blog; but please don't let this type of nasty, personal attack post degrade the conversation here. I'm begging you.

Khadija said...

*Readers' Alert: Teachable Moment*

Greetings, Beverly!

Thank you so much for your expression of concern. I truly appreciate it. And no, I don't take your comment as trying to run my blog. I took it in the spirit it was meant---concern. THANK YOU.

Rest assured that, pursuant to my comments policy, I routinely reject and refrain from posting nasty, spiteful hate speech comments. However, I deliberately let it go in "Yvette's" case because allowing her vomit to be on display created a "teachable moment" in the context of this particular post.

It's similar to when I made the tactical decision to allow a few of the racist trolls' comments through in the Open Letter to Princeton Theological Seminary post. In both cases, the comments provided a "teachable moment."

Here's the Teachable Moment for this post:

I KNOW that there are a LOT of readers who are silently irritated or seething as they follow this conversation. THE VAST MAJORITY of our people who did not grow up in the middle or elite classes are infected (to varying degrees) with hateration. The vast majority of such persons have chips (of various sizes) on their shoulders about this issue.

I hear it oozing out of folks even in conversations that are not directly related to class issues. It's so deeply entrenched among us that infected persons are blind to how often their hateration leaks out for others to see.

I have silently watched while audience members have taken gratuitous mini-swipes at the Black middle class. I have silently watched the same CONSTANT patterns on other Black blogs.

However, I have refrained from challenging audience members about it when it happens. Because the odds are that they will be in denial about it. Most people are unable to see how they look or sound from the outside. Especially when dealing with emotionally charged issues, like class within the Black collective.

"Yvette" has a terminal case of hateration. I let her comments through because I want those of us who are less infected to see what a full-blown case of hateration looks like when it's somebody else. It's easier to see it when it's somebody other than ourselves.

I wanted less-infected audience members to see the natural progression of this infection in one, accelerated, negative interaction that usually takes much longer to play out during in-person interactions. I wanted less-infected persons to see the:

1-Inability to even hear/comprehend what is actually being said;

2-Projection of the infected person's insecurities/issues onto the other person (the "you think you're better than me" syndrome);

3-Denial of reality, and dishonesty when discussing the facts of the situation;

4-Increasing rage as the denial and dishonesty don't "work;"

5-Increasingly shrill responses that have NO connection to what the other person is actually saying, which escalates into:

6-Lashing out at those the infected person secretly BELIEVES to be their superiors;

7-Increased frustration as the lashing out fails to achieve the desired effect, which ultimately leades to:

8-Grammar school/schoolyard taunts.

These symptoms don't always escalate all the way to schoolyard taunts, but it's a pattern. Some people follow a similar progression when faced with information or viewpoints that they find threatening to their emotional "comfort zone."


There was an old game show called "Name That Tune" where contestants guessed the song from listening to the first few opening notes. In this context, I've seen this hateration pattern many, many times. I've also watched a lot of witnesses spin out of control on the witness stand. From the first opening "beats" of "Yvette's" first comment, I could tell where she would ultimately go with this.

"Yvette" didn't disappoint my expectations of her. She didn't know it, but she was serving my overall agenda with this post.


I was fairly certain that at least one full-blown hater would NOT be able to resist trying to argue with me about this topic. And that they would put their full range of symptoms on display, if I was patient and let them spew their venom. You see, fully infected persons can't control themselves with this. [THANK YOU for your unwitting service, "Yvette."]

Now that she has served her purpose, I WON'T let any further hate speech comments through.

I hope that those of us who have less severe cases of hateration will take a good, hard look at "Yvette" and ask ourselves: "Is this who I want to be? Do I have similar thought patterns like those on display with this episode? Am I doing, even in small measures, ANY of the behaviors I saw here?"

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

*Reader's Alert #2: Bonus Teachable Moment*

Now that there's been some time to digest Teachable Moment #1, here's another one.

"Yvette's" display is an example of why EMOTIONAL DISCIPLINE is so important. I would suggest that folks check out a post by Rev. Lisa entitled, Black Women and The Necessity of Emotional Control.

AA culture is foolish enough to actually celebrate a lack of emotional discipline. We like to call it being "passionate." Actually, it's being foolish and easily controlled by others.

As my Dad taught me while growing up, "Unless you practice SELF-control, other people will play your emotions in order to position, maneuver, manipulate, and ultimately CONTROL you.

At minimum, 'popping off' almost always gives opponents too much information to work with. If you're going to let yourself 'pop off,' be sure to stick with a script that serves your purposes, and not theirs!"


For those who are familiar with this incident, this is why I stopped talking past a certain point when responding to an immigrant Muslim on another blog. I was so annoyed that I wasn't sure I could continue to further my own agenda if I kept talking. So, I stopped and withdrew from that discussion.

It's extremely ugly and unattractive behavior for me to say this out loud, but it's an important lesson that some of us need to learn for our own self-protection: Once I saw that "Yvette" most likely lacked emotional discipline, I just wanted to use her expected responses to make MY point. I'll call it "positioning" instead of manipulation because I was simply prompting her, and allowing her, to do what she was already inclined to do.

In order to win cases, lawyers frequently do this with opposing witnesses who lack emotional discipline. They sit back, and let the witness spin out of control in a manner that helps their case.

Predators take it to the level of manipulating the emotionally undisciplined person into doing and saying things that they were NOT previously inclined to do.

It's something to consider in one's interactions.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

Here's the Teachable Moment for this post:

I KNOW that there are a LOT of readers who are silently irritated or seething as they follow this conversation. THE VAST MAJORITY of our people who did not grow up in the middle or elite classes are infected (to varying degrees) with hateration. The vast majority of such persons have chips (of various sizes) on their shoulders about this issue.

I hear it oozing out of folks even in conversations that are not directly related to class issues. It's so deeply entrenched among us that infected persons are blind to how often their hateration leaks out for others to see.

My reply:

Thanks, Khadija, for providing a language for us to think about in considering these type of phenomena.

I can think of one incident on my own blog, where I was discussing the election of 2008, and I mentioned in passing an observation that others have made, of M. Obama being an alternative vision of a "real" black woman, that of a grown-up, middle class professional black woman.

I got a reply which I deleted, because it was so out of left field. The commentator, anonymous, used swear words to curse at me, and accused me of saying that "ghetto" women are not real...

It was just crazy, I had no idea where it came from--nothing in the post was critical of "ghetto women," and it was thus so out of proportion to anything I wrote in the essay.

As you said, it is "hateration".

goodness80 said...

I have been lurking, but now I have decided to comment on this particular post. I agree with what you are saying regarding the insane behavior of the black under class. Why can I say that because I live it.

A few years back I take a financial gamble to better my life, and several tragic events occurred that didn't include drugs. I found myself economically depleted and residing in a lower class area.

The devestation and perversion is incredible and surreal but there are many decent people due to financial reasons have a hard time escaping these areas. The children that reside in these areas with their so-called parents don't stand a chance without intervention. Dunbar Village in Florida and all the other Dunbar Villages across this nations represent this loathsome and vile attiude toward humanity especially black women.

I have a black nationalistic viewpoint, but this type of ideology is ignored or ridiculed among all black socio-economic groups in this country. The average AA individual doesn't know half of the truth about the "state" of this nation nor do they comprehend the danger they face. I don't believe they care!

The black elite have a right to deny access to their professional and social organizations those individuals they deem unworthy but at what price? With the perilous economic condition of this country and the world, can they afford to divest themselves from those in the black lower or even black underclass who do not exhibit abhorrent behavior and are attempting to move out of mess?

Black elites will lose their companies, jobs,pensions,homes, and positions along with lower class blacks. Their allies will be few and the few that remain may turn into enemies. I am not upset nor am I hating on the black elite every society has had an elite group. The elites can be a powerful force for the good of a people or they can be a bad force.

As you so aptly stated arrogance and hatred can exist in any group or individual, we must search ourselves to see if we harbor either of these and do what is expedient to eradicate these evils from our hearts.

I hope that you post more about the terrible economic conditions and how they relate to black women because most of us are not prepared for the tidal wave that is about to hit.

I know that I missed most of the target that you discussed in your post but I had to write to tell you to keep doing what you are doing. Again thank you for your insightfulness. Keep on preachingand remember a true prophet is never honored in their own land.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,


Another interesting post.


I was asked at one point to join a sorority a few years ago, but I was so scared of hazing and the stories I had heard about black greek life (wild, drunken fill in the blank) that I stayed away.


Now I feel a tiny bit of regret because I play the what if game. Even if I found one or two other people who were positive and like minded that would have been a good thing. Or I wonder about the potential national/international networking opportunities as far as my career goes. Or now as I think about the economy the power/benefits of group affiliation sounds kind of appealing.



In my personal experience, I have been treated decently by middle class blacks and the worst by other working class blacks and some striver whites.


It is still mindboggling to me when you share the stories about attorneys using ebonics in court. I wonder what are their clients thinking? How do they even get clients? I would be very upset if I went to a lawyer for a consult and they broke out in ebonics. I expect a professional to be much more knowledgeable than myself, to look out for my best interests, and if he/she sounds no better than the bum on the corner - I am running as far as I can!



Yvette was so off the chain. That response was so out of proportion to the conversation it wasn't funny. I don't see how someone can hold that much hate towards anyone.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Pioneer Valley Woman!

Oh yes, the hateration is widespread and deep-seated. This is why any Black person who was blessed to grow up within the middle of elite classes must be extremely cautious of most Black folks who weren't. One must be ready to pull back at the slightest hint of hateration.

Here's why: Many such persons hate us with a passion; and would LOVE to see us harmed in some way. Many haters don't/can't consciously own up to these feelings even to themselves, but they act this out in their behavior! Many haters can't control themselves when it comes to this issue (like the commenter on your blog that you mentioned). BEWARE!

There's a verse in the Quran that originally referred to those who were hidden and not-so-hidden enemies of the first Muslims. It also applies to this hateration context---

"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin. Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths. What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom." Quran, 3:118 [emphasis added].

I know you're a Christian (*smile*), but I'm mentioning this for Muslim readers' benefit. From my perspective, NON-hating strivers have fully joined the ranks of the Black middle and professional classes. HATING strivers are NOT part of our ranks, and therefore we must keep them at arm's length for our own self-protection. HATING strivers will hate us NO MATTER WHAT (because their hateration is internally generated).

As the Quran verse mentioned, there's a LOT of pure hate floating around in the haters' hearts. And they're just itching for any perceived opening to feel justified in spewing it on those people that they secretly feel are their superiors.

Pioneer Valley Woman, since this is their internal issue, it has little to NO connection to anything you might say or do.

As Evia explained, "Many of these black underclass folks simply have an ***inferiority complex.*** Therefore, it doesn't take much for INFIGHTING to break out among them or with others (especially other blacks) who they feel 'look down on them.'"
_________________

Greetings, Goodness80!

Thank you for your kind words, I truly appreciate them. I'm delighted that you decided to join the conversation---welcome aboard!

While we're all discussing this, let me mention a few points of clarification:

The Black poor and underclass almost NEVER have any access whatsoever to the Black elite. This is why most Black folks confuse the Black middle class with the Black elite, when these are two very separate classes. The Black middle class has LIMITED access to members of the Black elite.

From what few observations that I've made of the Black elite, they can probably afford to remain an island unto themselves. [I've made few observations because I'm not a social climber, and therefore have not gone out of my way to be around such people.] Many of them live off of investments and other assets that generate passive income. They're not living off of jobs. So, yes, the Black elite can most likely afford to remain detached from the rest of us.

Of these 2 classes, it's the (soon to be former) Black middle class that's in trouble in this economy. It's the Black middle class that is living off of so-called "good jobs." Jobs that are being cut by the tens of thousands in this economy.

I'm not trying to be mean-spirited or sarcastic. But I have to ask some blunt, practical questions about this:

What can the Black poor (much less the underclass) possibly do for the rest of us? What does the Black poor (much less the underclass) bring to the table? What can they possibly contribute as allies to anybody? They couldn't take care of themselves under the previously functioning economy!

[And I will note, neither could the Black middle class! I don't consider total dependence on a "good job" as being truly self-sufficient. Not at all.]

Furthermore, it's not like the Black poor or underclass support existing Black businesses. This is why the vast majority of Black professionals work for either the government or White businesses.

As things stand, I don't see a happy ending, or a coming together except in small groups of personal friends. I don't believe that there will be any "mass" anything except ruin. Those of us who make it will do so either as individuals, or as members of small groups of like-minded friends/family.

The number of like-minded people that we can call upon for personal help is what will make or break most of us during this 2nd Great Depression!

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest that you read the 2 True Fellowship posts. And start making more, and deeper, connections with like-minded people.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said...

Good God Almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW… just WOW…

Alright. I’m convinced. Something else other than mental illness is going on here. Khadija, I think you’re right about this being down right: evil, demonic, cruel, hateful, behavior. OMG!

Another issue ladies is, the hateration is not just limited to the middle class. I have no idea what class tier I’m in, but I will say that once I revealed to the parents of my daughters park buddies that we had saved $25,000 in two years, and were prepared to buy a home, this same type of behavior was aimed at me too.

I have had feeling of envy but I can honestly say that I have not spent a great deal of my life envying the middle class but I have spent a great deal of my life trying to do the self work to transition into the middle class. I have envied folks with an abundant spiritual life, and an awesome attitude in face of what appears to be insurmountable odds. I’ve also envied or rather admired folks with the courage to become home steaders.

This is just off the wall…

I just can’t believe some one is actually living in this emotional state over class tier issues EVERY DAY ALL DAY!!! I just can’t believe…

WOW…

I’ll be reciting the last three surahs before I walk out my door today.

Thanks for the teachings moments you have opened my eyes!

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

Oh yes, the hateration is widespread and deep-seated...One must be ready to pull back at the slightest hint of hateration.

Here's why: Many such persons hate us with a passion; and would LOVE to see us harmed in some way...I know you're a Christian (*smile)...

My reply:

I don't mind the quotes from the Quran--I like comparative religious studies, and the "good books" have a lot to teach all of us...

Exactly, this has nothing to do with me, yet this person spewed out such serious ill-will. When I saw the note, I said to myself, this person is emotionally/mentally disturbed, the kind of person that one stays away from!

I like the way you described it; it verges on the demonic...

Khadija said...

Greetings, Aphrodite!

I doubt that you missed out on much by declining the invitation to join a sorority. From what I can tell from afar, they are as dysfunctional as the rest of Black institutions.

You said, "In my personal experience, I have been treated decently by middle class blacks and the worst by other working class blacks and some striver whites."

Black haters practice hateration across the board, including among themselves. The main difference is that the hateration is culturally approved and celebrated when it's directed against the Black middle and elite classes.

About the courtroom Ebonics users: The other Black attorneys that were present were focused on figuring out how to mitigate the damage---such as who was going to try to talk to these nuts about their courtroom diction. {sigh}

You said, "Yvette was so off the chain. That response was so out of proportion to the conversation it wasn't funny. I don't see how someone can hold that much hate towards anyone."

There are MANY "Yvettes" among us. They are legion.
_____________________

Greetings, Sister Seeking/Miriam!

Everybody has flashes of envy. It's a normal, human response. If we are healthy people, we will resist such impulses, and won't linger in a state of envy.

Hateration is something of a whole different magnitude. Hateration is a mixture of envy and bitterness that has been EMBRACED and CULTIVATED. Hateration has been embraced, cultivated, and celebrated in AA culture over the past 30 years. Hating on the Black middle and elite classes is another rotten fruit of the hip-hop tree. In previous generations, AA mass culture did NOT embrace hateration toward the middle and elite classes.

Past a certain point of infection, hateration becomes a form of demonic possession! From the examples of "Yvette" and the commenter that Pioneer Valley Woman described, you can see how fully-infected haters are NOT in control of themselves.

Like I told Aphrodite, Black haters practice hateration across the board. They don't want anybody to move forward. The main difference is that the hateration is culturally approved and celebrated when it's directed against the Black middle and elite classes.

Yes, hateration is Satan-inspired EVIL. For real. This is why the last 2 chapters of the Quran focus on strengthening Muslims against hateration from both ends: seeking God's protection against haters, and resisting becoming one of the haters:

Surah 113. Al Falaq (The Daybreak)

Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn,

From the mischief of created things;

From the mischief of darkness as it overspreads;

From the mischief of those who practise Secret Arts;

And from the mischief of the envious one as he practices envy.


Quran, 113:1-5 [emphasis added]
___________________

Surah 114. Al Nas (Mankind)

Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of men,

The King of men,

The God of men,

From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (devil),

Who whispers into the hearts of men,


From among the jinn and the men."


Quran, 114:1-6 [emphasis added]

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Pioneer Valley Woman,

Just imagine: Being denounced by a hater like your commenter, all because of HER internal issues, could get you killed in a Communist society!

This sort of government-approved, government-encouraged economic haterism is what makes hard-core Communism (as opposed to some forms of socialism) an inherently Satanic ideology.

What's the logical end result of the mass Black haterism against the Black middle and elite classes?

Answer: Pol Pot's killing fields in Cambodia where anybody who even looked like they had some education was marked for death!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

Khadija said...

What's the logical end result of the mass Black haterism against the Black middle and elite classes?

Answer: Pol Pot's killing fields in Cambodia where anybody who even looked like they had some education was marked for death!

My reply:

1. Because the Communist ideology always operated from the presumption that people with some means always garnered them from some exploitation (never their own hard work and pursuit of opportunities), so their resources must be taken away and they must be done away with...

2. Because the Communist ideology always had this fear that those among the well-educated and who were not corrupted, would be the ones to call "foul," upon seeing the direction their society was taking....

3. Because the Communist ideology always adhered to this notion that middle class people were handmaidens of oppressive regimes, not institutions of stability...

But what is happening in the black community is not about Communism, but relates to all of them: some misguided notion that black middle class people go where they are because of unfairness, or their very existence takes away from everyone else beneath them, or they are handmaidens of racism, and so forth.

DeStouet said...

I've never "hated" on the the middle class or any other class. I was too busy doing the things I needed to do, in order to navigate my life to this point.

I've only been jealous of one person my entire life, and it wasn't the person I was envious of, but the relationship she had with her mother. Jealously will drive a person to kill (among other things) but I have always wished her the best because she deserves it.

I will admit though, I have a love/hate relationship with the black middle class, because for the most part I found the black middle class to be made up of, people who acted as if they could not part with the keys to happiness...especially the women.

I am -and have always been- a very beautiful woman both inside and out. I have the kind of energy that causes people to say, "there is just something about her."

As a young woman, I was very eager, very hungry. Always drawn to other beautiful woman who seemed to carry themselves with dignity, pride, confidence and strength. Always drawn towards women who were articulate, educated and intelligent. And always asking people from the middle class questions...especially the women.

I've always wanted to go to the next level, be taught by the very best and learn from the very best -or what I considered to be the very best at that time in my life.

But after hitting my head several times, and realizing that I was not going to get any where with these middle class women, I stopped asking. Because they did not believe in passing their knowledge down to other beautiful women. I was wasting my time and energy.

In my most honest opinion, I believe that a large majority of people from the middle class, enjoy seeing people from the lower classes act behave as if they have no common sense. It makes them feel like they are "better" than someone else. I believe this because I have witnessed this kind of behavior. I believe this because many of the women I am referring to, had no problems talking to me, and sharing with me when I was acting out, but as soon as I started picking their heads, they put up their wall and would not let me in.

And so I learned very quickly, that most middle class whites will lend a helping hand to those who are willing and trying to help themselves. And being physically beautiful did not hurt either -in fact it was an added bonus.

I may have said this before but the most help I've gotten from people were two white men with the exception of my elder, who is a black man.

That is not counting the list of white women who have stood up for me countless times in court, and taught me the "ins & outs" of the system, in order to make sure that I always got my needs met and was placed in the very best facilities. I believe they did these things because they saw my hunger and geniune desire to better my situation.

Besides my mother-in-law (who was my foster mother at one point) and my friend, Arlene, I can not say that there have been any women who have had my "back." I have learned more about being a woman on this site, and by reading, than I have learned from any middle class woman in my life.

And I asked.

And for a while, I did behave as if I have a chip on my shoulder towards the black middle class, but it was because when I was asking for the inside scoop on how to change my situation, people wanted to play stupid.

But eventually the chip was knocked off because at the end of the day, I'm much better than that.

Khadija said...

*Warning: Contains 1 VERY Long Response! LOL!*

Hello there, Pioneer Valley Woman!

Oh yes, you're correct. As you noted, mass Black haterism against the middle and upper classes isn't about any coherent ideology such as Communism. As you said, it's about:

"...some misguided notion that black middle class people go where they are because of unfairness, or their very existence takes away from everyone else beneath them, or they are handmaidens of racism, and so forth."


Except for the handful of explicit communists/socialists among us, these misguided notions are quite inchoate. But these misguided, inchoate notions run parallel to Communist assumptions and demonization of the middle and upper classes. In the end, both roads lead to killing fields.

As I've tried to tell some aspiring activists I've known over the years: Communism is NOT cute. Just ask the people who have risked their lives escaping from various "workers' paradises."
____________________

Greetings, DeStouet!

You said, "I've never "hated" on the the middle class or any other class. I was too busy doing the things I needed to do, in order to navigate my life to this point."

I...see...

You said, "I will admit though, I have a love/hate relationship with the black middle class, because for the most part I found the black middle class to be made up of, people who acted as if they could not part with the keys to happiness...especially the women."

I...see...Perhaps they simply did not want to give them to you. Perhaps they simply did not want to give them to anybody. Were they under any obligation to do so? I think not.

I had a Korean martial arts instructor. He did NOT accept any and every person who came to him wanting to be his student. He was right. He had a right to decide whom he was going to share his hard-earned information with.

There are potential students that one feels comfortable with. And then there are other people that one does NOT feel comfortable sharing oneself with. For all sorts of reasons. Some "legitimate." Some "illegitimate." Regardless of the reasons involved, nobody is required to share their life lessons with anybody else.

The sort of mentoring that it sounds like you're talking about is very personal and requires trust. In explaining real-life things (such as the keys to personal happiness), one inevitably ends up sharing details of one's personal life. Details that one might NOT want broadcast to the world.

I know for myself that if somebody approaches me with a "you owe me" attitude, I'm immediately turned off and distrustful of that person. If somebody feels entitled to have access to MY life lessons, what else of mine do they feel entitled to have?

Furthermore, what happens to the personal information that I shared with the student if the student "falls out" with me at a later date?

Also, an attitude of entitlement to what I've learned through MY personal experiences would make me wonder about the "you owe me" wanna-be student's judgment. If I did share, what would they do with the information I gave them? Would they handle MY information with the same level of discretion that I feel it deserves? Would they spread my comments around? Would they misuse my information?

Why take that risk with insights that I've learned through MY personal experiences? Personal experiences that I might not want broadcast to the world if the student ever "fell out" with me?

Respectfully, it sounds as if you've never considered the risks involved in what you were asking of these women.

You said, "In my most honest opinion, I believe that a large majority of people from the middle class, enjoy seeing people from the lower classes act behave as if they have no common sense. It makes them feel like they are "better" than someone else. I believe this because I have witnessed this kind of behavior."

I...see...I also beg to differ. First, I would question whether or not the persons you're describing who enjoy clown spectacles are actually "middle class." Or are they dysfunctional strivers who recently made the jump into "good jobs" and a "good" salary.

Many Black folks have a lot of confusion about what constitutes "class."

Money does NOT make somebody middle class. Drug dealers and professional athletes have money.

A "good job" does NOT make somebody middle class. Remember the Ebonics-using attorneys?

A formal education does NOT make somebody middle class. Remember the Ebonics-using attorneys?

An expensive car and house does NOT make somebody middle class.

Having money, a "good job," a formal education, and access to expensive material goodies serve as entry requirements. But by themselves, they do NOT make someone middle class. It takes these attributes PLUS a middle class mindset and attitudes.

If the person does NOT have a middle-class mindset and attitudes, then they are NOT middle class. And they won't be perceived as such. They will be perceived as a formerly poor or working class person who has a "good job," a formal education, and a nice house, etc.

Or, in the case of the Ebonics-using lawyers: They are perceived as so-called "ghetto" individuals who just happened to go to law school. Sort of like what I've heard about the attorney character on the old Amos & Andy show.

I'll say this the blunt way:

I was born into the middle class. I grew up in middle class environments. I have yet to see anyone FROM these environments actually enjoy a ghetto clown show spectacle. The attitude is more one of disgust. And annoyance that some "clown" got in, and polluted a previously "nice" environment.

Anyone who actually enjoys clown shows can drive down to their nearest slum to see one. And who wants to do that?

More blunt talk:

The Black poor and underclass have this peculiar (really quite vain) notion that people from other classes actually think about, or pay attention to them. From what I've seen, the Black poor and the underclass are NOT on most middle class persons' radar.

The ugly truth is that nobody cares enough about the Black poor or underclass to pay any attention to what they're doing. Nobody's watching them. Nobody even "sees" them until they do something (often negative) to bring themselves to other folks' attention.


I have never seen people FROM middle class environments who actually defined themselves in relation to the Black poor or underclass. They have other measures of self-definition. The Black middle class' self-definition revolves around jockeying for position among other middle class people. And on social climbing into the Black elite. The Black poor and underclass don't factor into this self-definition equation. They are irrelevant to this equation.

On the other hand, I have seen INSECURE, DYSFUNCTIONAL strivers take great pains to distinguish themselves from the Black poor.
These are also often the people who have emotionally charged relationships with material things, professional titles, and other "stuff" that they are desperate to wave around and show off.

It seems much more likely to me that these are the sort of people that you're desribing who enjoy, or need, to see ghetto clown shows for their self-validation.

You said, "I believe this because many of the women I am referring to, had no problems talking to me, and sharing with me when I was acting out, but as soon as I started picking their heads, they put up their wall and would not let me in."

Respectfully, have you considered that if these women felt that you were "acting out," that this would give them reasons NOT to trust you with their personal insights?

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Greetings Khadija!

I am just getting through the comments but I have been following the discussion over the few days!

What an important post!

You said:
"The Black poor and underclass almost NEVER have any access whatsoever to the Black elite. This is why most Black folks confuse the Black middle class with the Black elite, when these are two very separate classes. The Black middle class has LIMITED access to members of the Black elite."

Excellent!

It is true that the black elite are not in contact with the blacks in the underclass or blacks in the lower class and have extremely limited contact with blacks in the middle class.

They do have some sporadic contact with blacks in the upper middle class. They really DO function as an island unto themselves!

I agree with you that most black people who are from the underclass tier or the lower class tier tend to think that the upper middle class are "black elites". I understand why there is confusion.

I haven't analyzed all of the reasons why there is a desire for invisibility by the black elite when it comes to other blacks. I only understand it at a surface level.

In this discussion, the question about the power exercised by the black elite was raised.

From what I have observed, the black elite is interested in being in circles of the highest levels of the white power structures, and so there is no desire among most of the black elite to even engage with those who don't have any access to upper echelon channels of influence.

The way that the black elite can limit the access of black strivers who are in the middle class is by not endorsing them to white decision-makers when they are asked.

When the white CEO calls up black elite and says, "I have a resume on my desk from Ratunda Montreese Curtis-Washington and she's a recent Harvard grad. Know anything about her?"

All it takes for that white CEO to toss the resume in the trash is to hear that black elite say, "not our kind, Bob, not our kind..."!

It happens!

Now...if that white CEO calls up and says, "I have the resume of Margaret Carrington and she's a recent Harvard grad. Know anything about her?"

If that black elite says, "Why sure I know the Carrington family! What a phenomenal family. Her grandfather was the first black to be elected to the board of Exxon. It's worth your time to have lunch with her, Bob!" then that white CEO will respond.

That is the only way that I have noticed that the black elite can "green light" and "red light" people within white circles. Since the black elite has family legacy, their views about other blacks are usually trusted by influential whites.

I am not saying it's fair but I am just mentioning that I have observed this dynamic...powerful whites wanting a trusted black person to "vouch for" a black who is unknown to their circles.

Another point that I want to mention is that Michelle Obama DID NOT get where she is through hard work and determination.

Michelle Obama was mentored by a member of the black elite from the time she was in her 20s and was not known among the influencers in Chicago. When her last name was still Robinson, she was mentored by Valerie Jarrett - who is a fourth generation black influencer.

Barack needed powerful whites to support and endorse him among other powerful whites.

Class privilege plays out differently with blacks when you consider this...

Michelle Obama and Barack Obama had to "qualify" in order to enter the black middle class.

You were born into the upper middle class. You did not have to acquire credentials to be accepted. You belonged to the upper middle class because your parents belonged.

I mentioned this point when we were discussing the Kennedys. The are considered blue bloods whether they have degrees from Ivy League schools or not. A Kennedy is still in the upper crust even if a high school graduate with no job at the age of 40! *LOL*

This is class privilege in full effect that is conferred because of family lineage.

Blacks who are from the lower class do not get to become middle class without qualifications...they have to acquire degrees and have middle class professions before they are counted as part of the middle class.

Those in the black elite do not have to "qualify" to belong. They are born in.

I have heard some black strivers mentioning that blacks who are in the upper classes "look down on" blacks who are not. For the most part, black elites have no contact with blacks who are in the underclass or the lower class. So how in the world have these strivers NOTICED that they are looked down upon by those they have no contact with at all? *LOL*

I am quite curious...

It is quite common for children in the upper middle class and children in the black elite to reflect supremacist conditioning.

There is a difference between supremacist conditioning and snobbery.

My father made sure that we realized that we could have anything and be anything we wanted. I feel that this is what supremacist conditioning produces...an expectation of having anything that is desired and being anything that is desired.

Snobbery, in my assessment, is an attitude of comparing oneself with others and deciding on superiority.

I other words, Person A feels superior to Person B because Persona A thinks that Person B is not what he/she is.

Snobbery.

If Person A feels she can be anything and do anything she wants...THIS is not based on a comparison or even a glance at Person B.

Huge difference.

I have noticed that those who are in the upper class tend to observe others who are in the upper class and THAT is where the comparisons are being made. They don't feel competitive with persons who aren't in their own class tier. They are more focused on the others in the upper crust and positioning themselves among the upper crust. The upper crust has their own "ranking system" that is invisible to persons who are not in their class tier.

Think of a marathon race... that runner who is in the front is focused the runner who is right on his/her heel... not on the runner sitting on the bench with a broken leg and not on the runner who is at the back of the pack.

The runner at the front of the race does not look at the runner at the back of the pack to decide to run faster and harder. That runner in number one is thinking about the finish line and assessing how race that runner in number two is going. I think this could be why so many in the black elite don't focus on the blacks in the other tiers. They don't see any reason to.

I can understand why there are some black women who have expectations that black women who are successful will mentor and answer questions every time they are being approached by black women who are trying to get to the place where they are educationally or professionally.

I understand those expectations but I feel those expectations are naive.

Black women need to dismantle this notion of black loyalty. It keeps coming up in these conversations that black women expect other blacks to be interested in blacks that they don't even know.

Let's get real. Some blacks out here are interested in helping others advance...and your blog forum and mine is focused on that.

I don't think that black strivers should have any expectations that blacks who are not strivers will demonstrate a desire or a priority to mentor others outside of their class tier. How lovely it would be if everyone wanted to bring another person to success!

However...

The reality is much different than our idyllic notions.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Evia said...

That is not counting the list of white women who have stood up for me countless times in court, and taught me the "ins & outs" of the system, in order to make sure that I always got my needs met and was placed in the very best facilities. I believe they did these things because they saw my hunger and geniune desire to better my situation.

Or their motivation may possibly have been more complex. Whereas I, as a black person, never feel any guilt for my role in a racist foster care system or a racist system that has thrown so many black children into foster care, the fact is that some whites do harbor guilt about how that system and other parts of the racist structure have afforded them privileges at the expense of black people. Therefore this is a flawed comparison considering the racist structures in this country. At least, some of of the motivation for why a black and white person might or might not help you is most likely different in many cases. There are many layers involved in this type of situation.

Not saying this happened in your case, but sometimes, this can fall under the heading of a white person playing the "good white person" role. There have always been those white folks (even during slavery and Jim Crow) who black folks considered to be be "good white folk." Whites can afford to be more generous than blacks in MOST cases and not lose anything in the process. Sometimes, they even gain a lot. For ex. blacks tend to be much more grateful to whites for what a white person does for them vs what another black person does for them. For ex., you may not realize this, but you sound as if you were somehow entitled to what ever advice the middle class bw could give you whereas you sound VERY grateful for what the white women did for you. You don't sound like you felt entitled at all to what they did for you. You're praising them.

Considering the unequal privileges of many whites and blacks in this society, you would have been more justified, IMO, to feel a lot more entitled to what the white women did for you.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Lisa!

You've mentioned so many really important points, but I'll just focus on one.

You said, "Another point that I want to mention is that Michelle Obama DID NOT get where she is through hard work and determination."

This is an extremely important point about how a person's class of origin affects outcomes.

Hard work and determination are VERY good things, but there's always a LOT of other stuff going on behind the curtains. Too many of our people don't understand this. Especially some of those who are first-generation college grads.

Some of us believe that a degree from a "status" university like Harvard automatically grants one entry into various settings. Or that such a degree will grant one authority or "juice" in various realms. It does NOT work like that if you don't have family or social connections to back that up.

Furthermore, the organizational chart (on paper) does NOT necessarily reflect true authority or "juice." Let me give an example. If you're a Black professor at a prestigious university, this does NOT mean that you have any true authority whatsoever over any of your wealthy, connected, White students. NOT unless you are as connected as they are.

This means that they are free to refuse to defer to you. To whatever extent they wish. And there will be very little that you can effectively do about it. ESPECIALLY if you are your family's first college grad. A fancy degree from an fancy university does NOT outweigh that wealthy, connected student's extended family connections.

Let me give the reverse example. The (racist) White dean at the law school I attended had the nasty mental habit of assumiing that every Black student there was the first in their family to go to college, much less professional school. This dean seemed to perceive us all to be so-called "charity cases" who should be grateful to be there.

NOT. And the dean found this out the hard way. The Dean and Assistant Dean did some things that I found to be extremely FOUL. Among other yucky potential consequences, they then discovered that my father was in a position to have the wrath of the IRS descend upon that school. They quickly backed up. And decided to "fly right," and address my concerns.

But they apparently thought that I was a fluke. They still didn't learn their lesson about assuming that it was safe to try to screw over ALL of the Black students. They messed up and took liberties again. With one of my friends who was a year behind me. What they didn't know was that the then-Illinois Attorney General (now Sen. Roland Burris) was a close friend of his parents.

Apparently, they discovered that the Illinois Attorney General's Office was planning to stop interviewing any students from that law school if they persisted in their FOUL actions regarding my friend. They quickly "got on the good foot" regarding my friend.

Praise God, for at least these incidents, it worked in the reverse of what usually happens: This racist White dean of a White law school dean had to factor in how 2 Black students might react.

The moral of these stories is that there are always things going on behind the scenes that have nothing to do with paper credentials. It's not enough to have the paper credentials. For stuff to work in the best manner, you have to have an effective "posse" to accompany the paper credentials.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

Excuse me, but I was in a rush when I wrote my first response.

You said, "First, I would question whether or not the persons you're describing who enjoy clown spectacles are actually "middle class." Or are they dysfunctional strivers who recently made the jump into "good jobs" and a "good" salary."

No, they were middle class. I remember one women use to say that her family were all doctors. She was a psychiatrist.

The strivers you made reference to, were some of the adults who use to cause more harm than good. Many of them were fresh out of college and their hearts were simply not in their work. A few of them even lied on some of the children, causing them to be unnecessarily restrained. And had some of the children's privileges revoked. I would never look up to such a person. In fact, I learned to stay far away from such individuals.

As a child, I was very humble, and kind. Above all, I was very eager. Never in all of my years, have I approached a person with a "you owe me" attitude. That kind of attitude is not in me. I ask questions. I listen and I learn.

You said, "Respectfully, have you considered that if these women felt that you were "acting out," that this would give them reasons NOT to trust you with their personal insights?"

Yes, but that was not what it was about. There was jealousy involved in the reasons they did not part with their knowledge.

Evia said, "For ex., you may not realize this, but you sound as if you were somehow entitled to what ever advice the middle class bw could give you whereas you sound VERY grateful for what the white women did for you. You don't sound like you felt entitled at all to what they did for you. You're praising them."

No, I am not praising the white women but just telling the way things played out in my life, and some of the characters.

But if I take what you and Khadiaja said, it seems like you are saying I should feel entitled to whatever help that the white people offered or gave me, and Khadija is saying that I should understand that that the black women had no obligation to share, and or, help me with the things I was asking of them.

On the one hand, Khadija you seem to say, most blacks do not want help. You gave the one example of the Ebonics speaking lawyer and how you all had to find someone she can relate to, to approach her. And when they did, she got nasty with them, accusing the person of forgetting where they came from.

Well, I am telling you I wanted help and then you ask me have I considered certain things about these women. Yes, I have. I'm telling you what I observed and experienced.

Khadija said...

Hello there, DeStouet!

You originally said:

"I will admit though, I have a love/hate relationship with the black middle class, because for the most part I found the black middle class to be made up of, people who acted as if they could not part with the keys to happiness...especially the women.

...But after hitting my head several times, and realizing that I was not going to get any where with these middle class women, I stopped asking. Because they did not believe in passing their knowledge down to other beautiful women. I was wasting my time and energy.

...I believe this because many of the women I am referring to, had no problems talking to me, and sharing with me when I was acting out, but as soon as I started picking their heads, they put up their wall and would not let me in."


All of this sounds as if you're [still] angry with these women (and by extension the Black middle class--the "hate" part of the "love/hate relationship" you menttioned having with the Black middle class) because they chose to exercise their free will, and chose not to mentor you.

Why be angry with them if you understand that they had NO obligation to mentor you? Why be angry with the Black middle class if you understand that these women had NO obligation to mentor you?

It seems to me that the only way a person could be angry about this is if that person felt entitled to these women's mentoring. As if these women OWED somebody some mentoring. They didn't. They don't. Anyone who understands this also understands that there's no reason to harbor anger or resentment about this years later.

You quoted my question, and said:

"You said, "Respectfully, have you considered that if these women felt that you were "acting out," that this would give them reasons NOT to trust you with their personal insights?"

Yes, but that was not what it was about. There was jealousy involved in the reasons they did not part with their knowledge."


But since you understand that they didn't owe you (or anybody else) any mentoring in the first place, it doesn't matter what their reasons were for choosing not to give it.

You said, "On the one hand, Khadija you seem to say, most blacks do not want help. You gave the one example of the Ebonics speaking lawyer and how you all had to find someone she can relate to, to approach her. And when they did, she got nasty with them, accusing the person of forgetting where they came from.

Well, I am telling you I wanted help and then you ask me have I considered certain things about these women. Yes, I have. I'm telling you what I observed and experienced."


As far as the Ebonics-speaking lawyer, her inferiority complex and hateration prevented her from perceiving what others were telling her as "help." She chose to interpret the help as a put-down. Back to the "you're looking down on me" obsession with such folks.

I don't recall saying that "most Blacks don't want help." What I will say is:

Because of various distorted thought patterns, many poor, underclass, and hater-striver Blacks often don't perceive help as help. Their distorted perceptions twist it around into something else. Usually something negative, such as the "you're looking down on me" obsession. When they don't perceive it as help, then they don't want it.

Even if they do understand that the offered help IS help, and do want it, such people often ONLY want it ON THEIR TERMS! As if the "helper" is under some obligation to make the help as convenient and pleasing as possible to the person who needs it.

Considering that nobody owes anybody help, this is upside-down and backwards thinking. It also turns off potential help-givers. Someone making demands about the form and fashion of the help that they want from others increases the "hassle factor" involved in helping that particular person.

Some people are only willing to be helpful as long as it's not a hassle. Because they want to make demands about the form and fashion of the help, a lot of Black folks make it too much of a hassle to help them. The Black poor, underclass, and striver-haters have a bad habit of making it a hassle to help them. As if somebody has to cater to them to help them. NOT.

Anyway, back to the main point:

No matter how sincerely you wanted help, these women were NOT under any obligation whatsoever to give it to you (or anybody else). You wanting their help did NOT create any obligation for them to give it. They did not owe anybody any mentoring or any other help.

If this is understood then there's no reason to be upset with their decision to exercise their free will and not offer mentoring.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

You said, "No matter how sincerely you wanted help, these women were NOT under any obligation whatsoever to give it to you (or anybody else). You wanting their help did NOT create any obligation for them to give it. They did not owe anybody any mentoring or any other help."

No, but their motives were not right and I immediately picked up on their reasons for not "giving" help, answering questions, etc. This has been a small part of my experience with a few individuals from the middle class -which is relevent to this conversation.

And it still does bother me, that there was a time when I asked for assistance in bettering my life and was not given any help because there was some female jealousy involved. I'll get over it, in many ways I have -it's just that this discussion reminded me of that time.

You quoted scriptures from one of the holy books that talks about how "hateration" and jealousy came to be, along with a few other things. Well, I'm certain there is a scripture in one of the holy books that talks about what happened to me when I went out and asked these women for help with a pure heart.

And I know, when people only want to help others on their own terms because I continued asking for advice and seeking AFTER those women.

DeStouet said...

And one last thing, I am quite certain that jealousy you talked about was running through their veins. They were envious of my spirit. To be so positive, beautiful, kind, loving -despite everything I had ever been through. In my opinion, they were use to seeing young girls angry, ugly, bitter, and depressed -not alert and asking questions. Not wanting more, not desiring more for themselves even at a very young age.

So, I was on their radar. Not because they were concerned with me, but because they had never seen a person with such a beautiful spirit. The energy I gave off was rare, even at that age.

Also, I am not sure if I believe that nobody "owes" anybody any help. Maybe with the exception of those who are not on the same path as us, or not trying to help themselves. But we are not here on earth by ourselves.

Khadija said...

Hello there, DeStouet!

You said, "Also, I am not sure if I believe that nobody "owes" anybody any help. Maybe with the exception of those who are not on the same path as us, or not trying to help themselves. But we are not here on earth by ourselves."

We agree to disagree.

It sounds like you're adding qualifications to the "nobody 'owes' anybody any help" statement. Qualifications such as "the same path," or people "not trying to help themselves."

For me, those qualifications don't matter to the basic principle involved. The basic principle I believe is that nobody owes anybody anything. [I am excluding caregiver relationships such as parent-child, etc.]

My basic principle is that people have the right to exercise choice when it comes to giving, charity, help, whatever. They can choose to give. They can choose to withhold their help.

Charity is a good thing. However, I believe that any duty to give in charity is a believer's duty to God, NOT a duty owed to other human beings. One is giving out of thanks and obligation to God, NOT because other human beings demand it.

To think that people owe us help is similar to the attitude of an aggressive panhandler who feels that other people owe him some of THEIR money. No, I DON'T owe any of my money to panhandlers. I don't owe panhandlers any money whatsoever whether or not:

1-they are passive or aggressive while panhandling.

2-I perceive them, or they perceive themselves, to be on "the same path."

3-I perceive them, or they perceive themselves, to be trying to help themselves.

None of that is my point. My point is that I don't owe panhandlers any money. And the "money" that I do NOT owe them can take various forms: the "money" can be my time, energy, information, or help.

Like I said, we agree to disagree.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadijah,


I guess I learn something new all the time. It is sad to me that it would be culturally approved and celebrated to hate the people who are doing well.


I noticed in your last posts you mentioned legacy and family connections. So how would a person go about establishing family connections etc if you are a first gen grad?

Evia said...

Khadija, this whole discussion is the reason why I've always avoided the "class" issue. SMH There is such seething animosity among some black folks towards others who don't owe them anything. This is why I think that different classes of people in all groups mostly keep to themselves--not just blacks, for sure. Different classes of people tend to speak a different "social language," and there's just a lot less stress and strife in your life when you mainly associate with likeminded others of whatever racial, ethnic, or religious group.

For ex., you Khadija, are a muslim woman and I was raised a Christian, but I know that I can get along with you--even in our offline lives--because you and I are likeminded enough in critical ways. However, there are many Christian people who I absolutely cannot get along with and I therefore avoid them. Likewise, there are many whites, continental Africans, etc. who I get along with very well, and many AAs who I can't. This is why bw need to make it a point to cross as many "borders" as possible to find likeminded others in order to have a richer life, more socially connected lives with others who speak their "social language."

I notice how some of the underclass never realize that a relationship is a 2-way street. For ex, if a middle class person does something for an underclass black person, what does the underclass person offer in exchange? For ex, you pointed out how underclass or poorer blacks don't generally SHOW that they feel any obligation to buy from black businesses that might open in their neighborhoods. Often their animosity towards the black business owner will cause them not to shop in the store or they'll expect a discount from the black business owner. The slightest little thing will make them start bad-mouthing the black business owner. This is why many of those businesses fold.

Then, those same underclass blacks will accuse middleclass blacks of not starting businesses in their neighborhoods. There's just too much damage--too many issues!!!

I've noticed that the only way most black businesses survive in most neighborhoods is to get a certain amount of white customers. Then blacks will tend to also shop in those businesses too. LOL!

I notice a very distinct difference in the way underclass younger blacks (especially and some of them do have money), regard things done for them. They don't seem to feel they should be grateful AT ALL. However, I notice that among middle class blacks, whites and continental Africans who I've done things for, they SHOW reciprocity in some way. So there is very definitely an entitlement attitude among some underclass blacks. No matter how much is done for them, they think that they should be given more and more, and more of all kinds of things--but don't seem to feel anything is expected of them in return. LOL! That part is never mentioned. I really don't understand the social language they speak.

The basic principle I believe is that nobody owes anybody anything. [I am excluding caregiver relationships such as parent-child, etc.

One of the greatest things a parent can teach a child is how to say, "Thank you," and SHOW gratitude for ANYTHING uplifting that anyone (including the parent) does for them. I've taught my children to be thankful to us, their parents, and this extends to ANYONE who does something for them. Therefore, people like doing things for them--because they SHOW gratitude.

@DeStouet

I think this is why we need to abolish the notion of the "black community" because so many blacks bring it into the mix when it's convenient, but toss it away when it's not conevenient for them. LOL!
I could be wrong but I think that you felt that the middleclass bw should help you BECAUSE all of us AAs are ***supposedly*** a part of the "black community" and we're all supposed to help each other to "overcome," so that gradually we will ALL have "overcome." I often point out on my site how so many AA men use that same argument to jack bw up for favors and to overlook the shortcomings in these males and such, but conveniently forget it when reciprocity is expected. LOL!

Once you get rid of the notion of the "black community," and the notion of "black unity" then absolutely, you should expect more from those white women in terms of help than from AA women because ww as a group are much better positioned in the racial structure to give help. Yet, you mentioned what they did for you as if to say, "Wasn't that wonderful what they did for me vs those stingy bw?" LOL! However, MOST people don't do things for others without getting 'something' (though you many not be aware of what) in return.

My white in-laws, for ex., are in a much better position to pick up the phone and get help for me than most of my black family members are in to get help for any typical white person. (My black family members are definitely not a part of any branch of the "black elite" class by a long shot. LOL!)

Many well-meaning whites consider it as doing the "right" thing when they do things for blacks because historically racist whites did so many wrong things to blacks. On some level, it's a matter of atonement. I'm NOT saying that's always the case, but atonement is sometimes interwoven in what some whites do for blacks. I don't think that typical blacks ever feel they're ***atoning*** when they do good things for other blacks or for whites. I know I don't.

So I don't have any internal or external pressure on me to do anything for any underclass black person (those with or without money) and if they have a spiteful, ungrateful, "entitled" attitude (that many of them do have), I don't even think about lifting a finger to help them. There are plenty of other people who I help who know how to be grateful and SHOW that they know it, starting with the ability to say, "Thank you."

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

You said, "I guess I learn something new all the time. It is sad to me that it would be culturally approved and celebrated to hate the people who are doing well."

Learn something "new", you say? *Smile*

I respectfully submit that the culturally approved and celebrated mass Black hateration against middle and elite class Blacks is so widespread that we don't even notice it anymore. The same way we don't notice the air that constantly surrounds us.

Let me give just one example: The Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Consider the assumptions about affluent Blacks that are the very premise of that tv show.

Carlton Banks: If you're a Black teenager who's blessed to grow up middle or upper middle class, then you're an unhip, not-"street smart," young Black Republican?

Will ("Fresh Prince"): He's the only teenager in the bunch that is down to earth, and has a smidgen of common sense and street smarts? He's the "coolest" one of the bunch? And this is because he grew up in a slum?

Let's not even discuss the caricature of the Fresh Prince's affluent uncle (that he comes to live with) on that show.

WTH? How is something like this not noticed as offensive (and downright bizarre) stereotyping? It wasn't noticed as being FOUL because this is how mass Black culture demonizes affluent Black folks. That is, unless the Black person with money goes out of their way to "prove" that they're "down." Which usually involves engaging in dysfunctional "acting Black" behaviors.

The very premise of that show is just one example of accepted and celebrated mass Black cultural hateration.

You said, "I noticed in your last posts you mentioned legacy and family connections. So how would a person go about establishing family connections etc if you are a first gen grad?"

Whenever a Black person is in college, grad/professional school/the professions, there are usually at least a few Black folks who are also there who come from families with connections.

It's helpful to make friends with them. I mean in the natural way that one makes friends in general (similar interests, views, etc.). That puts you in a position where they might offer you some of the benefits of their connections.

It's impossible to do this if you are "hating on" people in general from these sorts of backgrounds. It's impossible to do this if they perceive you to be an aggressive panhandler who's in their faces demanding, expecting, and feeling ENTITLED to their help.

Note that Rev. Lisa mentioned the Obamas' friendship with "Valerie Jarrett - who is a fourth generation black influencer." This one friendship was an important (behind the scenes) stepping stone along the way.

No, nobody is saying that strivers NEED the help or friendship of affluent Blacks. But it certainly helps, and makes the path smoother. There is an expression about "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Only a fool goes out of his way to urinate on potential sources of help and advantages.

Striver-haters are NOT going to be able to connect to those Black people who already have connections. Therefore, they won't be able to borrow the benefits of that Black person's family connections. The same applies to aggressive panhandlers who are in folks' faces demanding, expecting, and feeling ENTITLED to their help.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Evia!

I'll be pleased if just one person reconsiders the hateration and/or entitlement mindset that has become dogma in mass AA culture.

I think that this "you owe me" mindset is a fairly recent innovation in mass AA culture. As in, since the 1960s (my older relatives say that this is when large numbers of Black folks went crazy).

My grandmothers (the maid and the seamstress) did NOT think that anybody owed them anything. My grandfathers (the handyman and the cook) did NOT think that anybody owed them anything. My parents (who grew up poor, and are strivers who made the leap into the middle class) never thought that anybody owed them anything.

As as I reflect on your comment, I realize that no, my parents didn't raise me to believe that they necessarily "owed" me anything after they raised me to adulthood! For example, it would never occur to me to expect my mother to just drop whatever she's doing to babysit any children I had. It would be nice if she was willing to babysit, but she doesn't have to do that. She does NOT owe me that.

[I believe, as I'm sure you do, that parents who choose to produce children owe a duty to feed, clothe and properly rear the children they produce. Even with that said, my grandparents and parents taught us all to be GRATEFUL and THANKFUL for anything that anybody ever did for us. Including what our parents and other relatives did/do for us!]

The other thing that I find interesting about the entitlement mindset is the lack of introspection that frequently accompanies it. If I'm getting a series of negative responses from a series of different people, then I'm going to take a step back and try to check myself.

I'm going to try to envision the FULL range of possible reasons why ALL of these different people are saying "No" to my request. Including the "price tag" and risks involved for a person who says "yes" to my request (that I might not have previously considered).

Verbally saying that my heart is pure and my spirit is beautiful does not necessarily make it so. My first move is definitely not to assume that they are ALL somehow jealous of me. [Which is vain, and inconsistent with a "pure" heart.] Maybe these other people are seeing something going on with me that I can't see myself. Something that I probably won't find out about if I'm CLOSED to the very possibility that maybe I'm the one who's off-base in this situation.

This is all quite interesting.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeStouet said...

You said, "It sounds like you're adding qualifications to the "nobody 'owes' anybody any help" statement. Qualifications such as "the same path," or people "not trying to help themselves.""

Whoa, whoa...I said I am NOT certain if I believe that nobody "owes" anybody any help. The exceptions I gave were immediately offhand. I am not adding qualifications because I haven't even really thought about whether I agree with your statement, or not. And at this moment, it really doesn't count because jealousy was the only reason these women choose to exercise the free-will that God granted them with.

In my opinion, what the women I made reference to did to me was crab, foul and plain ole cut throat. I had every right to be angered by their actions.

In the same way that, some of the ways and behaviors the strivers are bringing into middle class communities and settings are crab and foul. And middle class folks are angered by the actions of some of the strivers, and have a right to be.

And if this all boils down to simply free-will for each individual, then the strivers have every right to do as they please with NO regard to anyone else. They have no obligation to the middle class, especially if many of them are in fact, are still able to attain the kind of lifestyle that middle class blacks enjoy.

These strivers can choose to comply by the new rules, or not.

And since this is being applied here, let me point out that I am certain the good book you made reference to, spoke about what would happen if, and when, certain people with certain kinds of mind states was allowed to infiltrate. So it seems like middle class blacks are reaping what they have sewn.

By the way, I am not hating, just applying the rules all the way around.

You said,"Verbally saying that my heart is pure and my spirit is beautiful does not necessarily make it so. My first move is definitely not to assume that they are ALL somehow jealous of me. [Which is vain, and inconsistent with a "pure" heart.] Maybe these other people are seeing something going on with me that I can't see myself. Something that I probably won't find out about if I'm CLOSED to the very possibility that maybe I'm the one who's off-base in this situation."

Khadija, I am quite certain jealousy was the only reason. And not knowing how to handle a person like me. LOL! And please read my coment about having a pure heart over again, I said as a child. Not now. The heart I had then and now are a little different. Not totally, but different. The ways I picked up as a child, in order to defend myself, I have not completely gotten rid of. Also, if I say that my heart was pure, that is EXACTLY what it was. Am I suppose to be only aware of when I harbor negative thoughts? That's ridiculous. And if I say they were jealous of my enery, beauty and felt like I should not try to better myself, that is what happen.

Are you saying that there is no way a women from the black middle class can be jealous of a beautiful, energetic, kind-hearted young girl, who still stands talls despite of her upbringing?

Are you saying that because I am from the black underclass, striving upwards, I need to check myself and what I believe about those women because they are from the black middle class?

Are black people from the underclass and members of the black poors the only ones able to be jealous, and exhibit crab type behavior towards another class member?

My last few thoughts on this issue:
1. When I was a child, I originally didn't expect help. Since I was born, I have been doing for self.(For those who are not familiar with my story, you can check out my blog) Help NEVER came for me, I SOUGHT help. I'd never expected help UNTIL I was taken away from my parents.

When I was taken away from my mother, I figured that things would be different BECAUSE that is what I was told by everyone (the family judges, counselors, psychiatrists, staff members, etc.) They seemed so certain that help would be made available to me. And although it did come in many different forms, most of the times, I found myself also doing for myself the ENTIRE time I was in the system.

So, I honestly do not know why you ladies keep speaking about entitlement. I was a child when these things happened, and you are absolutely correct, for a while I did expect help -because that is what I was told I would receive. Since I wasn't given any details, I figured the world was mines, and I could get ANY help I desired. Why settle for second best?

2. This exchange proves to me that, as a person from the underclass, it is very difficult for others to acknowlegdge you are committed to change, if it does not meet their expectations. LOL! It seems as soon as I shared my experiences -I had the wrong class-I had not considered these women points of views- I was the one who had not done any kind of introspection. There had to be something else, because middle class blacks would never...

You ladies have got to be kidding me. I'm still tickled by that one....like I don't know when a women is jealous of me or my energy. I've always been aware of my beauty, which was the main reason for a while I felt more comfortable overweight. I spoke a bit about that here.

But the most insulting thing about this entire exchange, is how what I said is being turned into just some hate being directed at middle class blacks. I do NOT think like the majority of blacks from the black underclass. For the most part, never have. And the few kinks that I have from being raised in that kind of setting, are being worked out right now.

And I am done with this conversation.

Khadija said...

*Warning: Another extremely long response! LOL!*

Hello there, DeStouet!

THANK YOU for taking the time to dialogue at length. This is important because it gives everybody an opportunity to examine their assumptions (this includes me). This is a rare opportunity, because it's taboo to discuss these matters in any depth and honesty among Black folks. THANK YOU.

As I said earlier, I'll be pleased if just one person reconsiders the hateration and/or entitlement mindset that has become dogma in mass AA culture.

I will be pleased if just one person releases their grip on hateration and entitlement because it is for that person's own benefit to do so. Whatever choice haters and "aggressive panhandlers" make, it makes no material difference to me. People have free will. I hope they exercise it in ways that are helpful to them.

What many people lose sight of is that:

The middle class and the elite don't need anything from the poor and the underclass.

This is why we haven't asked them for anything.

The poor and the underclass are typically the ones coming to us looking for help.

The poor and the underclass are much less likely to receive the help they are asking for if they are engaged in a hateration or entitlement mindset. It is for their own (material) benefit that they let go of these distorted ways of thinking.

On a material level, it doesn't matter if the Black poor or underclass resent the rest of us. What are they going to do? Nothing. At worst, the haters are a nuisance to the rest of us.

You said, "And if this all boils down to simply free-will for each individual, then the strivers have every right to do as they please with NO regard to anyone else. They have no obligation to the middle class, especially if many of them are in fact, are still able to attain the kind of lifestyle that middle class blacks enjoy."

Again, note that the strivers are coming to OUR settings. We have no interest in being around their settings. Do they even have settings of their own other than the settings that they ran away from?

Many of them are chasing after being around us, not the other way around. Of course, they are free to do as they wish. I am merely pointing out that we are equally free to exclude them from our settings. We are free to move away once they come to our neighborhoods. Past a certain point, people do engage in middle-class flight to get away from dysfunctional strivers. [Similar to White flight.]

You said, "In my opinion, what the women I made reference to did to me was crab, foul and plain ole cut throat. I had every right to be angered by their actions."

Of course, you have the right to choose to be angered by their choice not to give you what you wanted from them. If you are doing so, you have the right to remain angry with them. And, of course, you could very well be correct about their motives for refusing to give you what you asked of them.

I've pointed out other possible reasons for their refusals, including considerations such as the potential risks involved in giving you what you wanted. I will add that from what I'm hearing of what you're saying, I would be extremely leery of helping anyone with some of the viewpoints that you have expressed in this conversation.

It's not about jealousy. It's about the fact that the entitlement mindset makes me nervous. For a variety of reasons, including the concerns I mentioned earlier.

From what I've observed, the aspiring Good Samaritan who helps someone with the entitlement mindset is almost always burned by that person. They don't appreciate the help they get (after all, they felt "entitled" to it). And they continue to make additional demands upon the aspiring Good Samaritan.

If the helper ever refuses one of their additional demands, then the entitled person turns on them. With extreme bitterness, and without any memory of what the helper had previously done for them. The same way I've seen aggressive panhandlers chase down the street after, and harass, people who just gave them some change in order to demand that they give them more!

You said, "Are you saying that there is no way a women from the black middle class can be jealous of a beautiful, energetic, kind-hearted young girl, who still stands talls despite of her upbringing?"

No, let me repeat what I said. I said:

"If I'm getting a series of negative responses from a series of different people, then I'm going to take a step back and try to check myself.

I'm going to try to envision the FULL range of possible reasons why ALL of these different people are saying "No" to my request. Including the "price tag" and risks involved for a person who says "yes" to my request (that I might not have previously considered).

Verbally saying that my heart is pure and my spirit is beautiful does not necessarily make it so. My first move is definitely not to assume that they are ALL somehow jealous of me."


I'm talking about a SERIES of different women refusing my request. It's possible for ONE of these women to be jealous of me. It's possible for maybe two of these women to be jealous of me.

However, the PROBABILITY of ALL of them refusing me because they are jealous of me is greatly reduced. The odds of 3, 4, 5, and more women refusing me because they are jealous of me are unlikely. It would be extremely vain of me to think otherwise. What, 3,4,5,6+ women are refusing because they are ALL jealous of ME?

Not to mention that people don't value the same things in the exact same way. Or to the same degree. This means that people are not jealous over the same things. Or if they are jealous, they're not going to be jealous to the same degree. What are the odds of 3, 4+ women having the exact same reaction for the exact same reason.

Another consideration is that unless the series of women are involved TOGETHER in the very same social clique, the odds of them having "lockstep," identical reactions is reduced.

What's much more likely is that they're each refusing for all sorts of reasons:

One woman might refuse me because she's jealous. Another might say no because she didn't like the way I approached her. Another one might say no because she doesn't have the time to be bothered. Another one might say no because she doesn't want to be bothered. Another one might say no because she doesn't trust my intentions. Another one might say no because she doesn't trust my judgment. The list of potential reasons can go on and on.

Another one might have some combination of the above reasons for saying no. Another one might have a different combination of the above reasons for saying no.

My point is that there are all sorts of much more likely reasons before I would conclude that they're ALL saying no because they're ALL jealous. In this type of situation, for everybody in a series to do the exact same thing for the exact same reason seems extremely unlikely. THIS is why the "they're jealous of me" thought would definitely NOT be my first assumption.

You said, "Are you saying that there is no way a women from the black middle class can be jealous of a beautiful, energetic, kind-hearted young girl, who still stands talls despite of her upbringing?"

No, I'm saying that the odds of them all having the same jealous reaction are unlikely. As I mentioned above, not everybody values the same things. Which means that they're not going to be jealous over the same things. Even among those who value the same things, not all of them will value these things to the same extent.

Specifically in reference to your question I quoted above:

Not everybody VALUES being energetic or kind-hearted. Many people don't care at all about what other folks do in relation to their personal histories. There are many people who don't care at all whether or not somebody else stands tall or not despite their upbringing.

There are many people who don't care about the above sorts of things when it comes to strangers and near-strangers. In fact, the world is filled with people who literally do NOT care if strangers (or anybody else they're not close to) live or die!

Now, most people DO value physical beauty. However, the odds of ALL of these women being jealous, PLUS ALL of them saying no because of this same jealousy are reduced.

THIS is what I'm saying. THIS is why assuming that folks said no to me because of jealousy would NOT be my first move.


You asked, "Are you saying that because I am from the black underclass, striving upwards, I need to check myself and what I believe about those women because they are from the black middle class?"

No. Here's what I said:

"If I'm getting a series of negative responses from a series of different people, then I'm going to take a step back and try to check myself."

You asked, "Are black people from the underclass and members of the black poors the only ones able to be jealous, and exhibit crab type behavior towards another class member?"

No. I don't recall saying anything at all like that. Please point to where I said anything like that.

I will say this:

"Crabs" pull down the crabs who are in closest proximity to them in the same barrel. Middle class crabs pull down other middle class people. Furthermore, middle class and elite crabs don't have to pull down the poor and underclass---these folks are already "down."

Middle class crabs are mostly focused on the activities and competition going on within their own class barrel. If they are looking at another barrel, they're looking at the next "level" of barrel---the elite barrel. Usually in order to try to jump into the next barrel. They are NOT looking backwards to see what's going on in the barrels behind them.

Again, I find the Black poor and underclass perception that others are actually paying attention to them quite strange. I don't get it.

To use Rev. Lisa's marathon analogy:

If I'm in the lead, I'm focused on STAYING in the lead, and INCREASING my lead. If I'm right behind the lead runner, I'm focused on overtaking him. If I'm somewhere in the pack, I'm focused on moving ahead, away from the pack, and closer to the lead runner. I'm not even thinking about the guy on the bench with the broken foot!

Anyway, back to the crabs and barrels analogy:

The Black elite are in barrels by themselves. The Black elite do NOT put themselves in any barrels that could possibly contain the Black poor or underclass. So, this notion that the Black elite are somehow pulling the Black poor and underclass down is crazy. They're not anywhere around the Black poor and underclass!

And the elite are pretty vigilant about keeping their barrels closed to the Black middle class. [Although, every once in a while a middle class crab manages to slip their baby crabs into the elite barrel. LOL!]

Withholding help is NOT the same thing as pulling down. Choosing not to help somebody climb is not the same as pulling a climber down.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

*Reader's Continuity Note*

My reply (time-stamped 1/29/09, 7:42pm.) to DeStouet is in direct response to DeStouet's earlier comment (time-stamped 1/29/09, 9:51 am.) that she subsequently deleted (before I finished typing the very long reply).

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

*Quick Meditations on "Juice" Now that Blagojevich Has Gotten the Boot*

"Juice" can be transitory, and a "use it while it's hot" sort of thing. For example, I no longer have direct access to "juice" like I did during the law school episode I mentioned earlier. My previous access was based on my Dad and his "posse."

Dad has been retired for some time now, and so are the bulk of his running buddies. And I chose NOT to do the sorts of things that would have been necessary to expand my own direct access to "juice."

It seems to me that juice is either expanding OR contracting. If you are not expanding your juice, it is naturally shrinking. So, just so folks don't have the wrong idea based on the earlier incident that I shared, I DON'T currently have juice! LOL!

I can be useful, but that is not at all the same as having juice (the ability to influence decision-makers).

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

Even though I said I would not comment again, I will make this exception.

You said, "Of course, you have the right to choose to be angered by their choice not to give you what you wanted from them. If you are doing so, you have the right to remain angry with them. And, of course, you could very well be correct about their motives for refusing to give you what you asked of them."

I've been saying that to you since we started this exchange. As I said in the beginning, I did have a love/hate relationship with the middle class because....

And I as a person have every right, but it is NOT because of some internal hatred for the whole class (which you seem to want to make this about), but because when I finally let down my guard and asked for help (as a child and young lady), I was hated on.

Aphrodite said...

@ DeStouet

I am sorry for all the things that you have endured. I haven't read your whole story, but you have shared bits and pieces of it. I believe that children should have their needs met and I am sorry that you didn't get all you needed when you needed it.


You didn't say how young you were when all of this happened and since I don't know details about the requests I think the repsonses you got may have had more going on behind them than class issues so I don't exactly see this as hateration/entitlement.



For example, I have friends who work in healing/helping professions, social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists and some work for the gov.



When they start out they typically are very idealistic hoping to save the world. If I had a penny for every time I heard the "if i can just save one child.." speech I'd be rich.



But they seem to get burned out very quickly and all of them over time begin to detach emotionally from the work in some way or get jaded altogether.


They have caseloads of hundreds of children and families to manage at once and must deal with ridiculous deadlines. I have one friend who had 90 children to see each month and he has to write 3 different reports on all of them (with no secretarial support) that must be reviewed by his superior by a weekly deadline. Also he is subject to an audit at whim. Add to that court dates, dealing with law enforcement, making home visits, and being on call for emergencies - that is just on the administrative side. It doesn't count the emotional assaults/drains and constantly seeing the worst that humanity has to offer.


So it may not have been you personally, but that you were one of far too many.


From what my friends have shared they have standard procedures and protocols they must follow and document in every situation. They are also limited in what they can do above and beyond that because any deviation that gives the appearance of familiarity (outside a professional capacity) especially when dealing with a minor [particularly if sexual abuse is involved] is frowned upon at best. At worst it can land them in so much hot water which can lead to them to having a blemished professional reputation, getting fired, having their license revoked or all three. All it takes is one allegation, or the hint of an allegation, or the appearance that something isn't right.



As an adult I personally know private practice therapists who have gotten into trouble for doing things for their clients - such as taking them into their homes when they were in abusive situations.


There are also some private practice therapists who are so wary that many won't touch certain topics. At one point I was having some sexual issues come up and I wanted to address that so I started searching for therapists. A few responded like it was the pink elephant in the room and others responded as if I had doused them in kerosene and was dancing around them with a blowtorch. I wasn't asking them to be my sex surrogate or doing anything that i felt inappropriate, but after talking with others in the profession they explained to me how tricky an area this is and how some T's don't want to deal with it.




So I am not justifying what happened or asking you to feel sorry for them or even making excuses for what happened - just trying to give an alternate view so that you can have some clarity and hopefully healing.


You were a child when this happened and in no way could you reason as an adult would in order to begin to understand the myriad of reasons why things turned out the way they did and I feel that you are still looking at this as a child would. I am NOT saying that you are childish or immature, but I feel that the way you framed this as a child is still with you as an adult.


For example you said that these women were all middle class and said that they some came from a family of doctors. You have no way of verifying that. I have a WM friend whose dad went to a local community college and he told me that his dad now lies and says that he went to a different 4 year school. Also even if they dressed well, drove the right car, went to the right school, and spoke the kings English, as Khadija said, you still have no way of knowing if they really were all they said they were. And therefore no way of really knowing this is a class issue.



Children take the words of adults at face value.


Even I as an adult have fallen and cracked my head on a rock for taking adults at face value.



I do understand your anger and hurt. Most people would be - you were a little girl and no one was there for you in the way that you needed/wanted. Most people would understandably feel some not so nice feelings behind that, but I feel that you are more hurt and the anger is a protective buffer for the raw vulnerability and total powerlessness you may have felt- which is what young children are vulnerable and powerless.



Although you blamed the women in your post I feel that you are really blaming yourself because you framed your post such that it was something inherent to you as a child that caused them to reject/abandon/be unavailable to you.



Children who have been abused blame themselves and they tend to cast themselves in "all powerful" positions.


Not as in I am God powerful, but they believe that what they do, say, or (think) they are can change circumstances or other people- when that is never the case.


Most survivors I have met (myself included) have expressed at one point or another that we would think/feel during the abuse that if only I could consistently do x,y,z (be nicer, more compliant, do more chores) or stop doing a,b,c then I could have made my abuser stop, be less violent, love me they way I need, not attack my siblings etc [fill in the blank].


And to take it a step further many survivors (myself included) often believe that there is something about us that made our abuser(s) single us out instead of realizing that evil people so what they do. Usually these beliefs are negative such as I am just a bad person so that is why this happened, but sometimes they can be "positive" such as if i weren't attractive this wouldn't have happened.


So although you framed the situation such that you felt they were responding negatively to good qualities you had in my mind you are still blaming yourself because you are saying something about you provoked these responses. That is still self blame and just as harmful.

Which implies on the flip side that if you didn't have these good qualities maybe things would be different. It is almost like you took everything that was going on and dumped it on your own shoulders as if no other factors could possibly play into this.


I can see how you could do this as you have stated that you have had to be a mini adult for a long time.



One of the most challenging lessons that I am still learning as an adult is that sometimes it "ain't got nothing to do with me".



Now if these women weren't doing their jobs that is one thing and I don't know how long ago this happened - so you would have to decide if you can or should pursue some kind of redress.



These women could have been hacks. They could have been incompetent. They could have been indifferent. Or some of them could have been fighting for you and you never knew it. If I had a child that was my charge I would not tell him/her "hey guess what I am going to do?" I would just do it. How cruel would it be for me to tell a kid that I am going to do x (which is essentially a promise in a child's mind) and it doesn't work out? Some could have gone above and beyond and got shot down. Some could have tried to help and been dissuaded by superiors.


Or they could have been unavailable because that is just who they were.


But the bottom line is that you don't know what the real reasons are for them behaving the way they did and truthfully you will never know.




Those women have gone on to do whatever it is that they are doing and you are allowing this to stop you from forming potentially good relationships with others.





I understand that things are difficult to process and work through when it comes to survivorship and I respect your decisions as to how you have chosen to deal with this situation, but just for the sake of healing maybe at some point you can slowly examine alternative contexts and feel your way through them in a way that lightens your burden instead of adding to it.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,


I can see your point on the images. I suppose I am one of the desensitized. :)


I am wondering though the guy who produced it, Quincy Jones, is he not middle class?


Although I guess if he was it wouldn't matter as there is also Tracey Edmonds who puts out garbage as well.


As far as networking with MC blacks. I will have to keep my eyes peeled. In undergrad after I changed schools I only saw three, none in any of my classes and they were all BM. Right now in grad school I haven't seen any Blacks at all. Most of the people are either white or from somewhere else.

Khadija said...

Hello there, DeStouet!

You said, "And I as a person have every right, but it is NOT because of some internal hatred for the whole class (which you seem to want to make this about), but because when I finally let down my guard and asked for help (as a child and young lady), I was hated on."

You say this consciously. But I believe that internal resentment (perhaps not full-blown "hatred"), and gratuitous mini-swipes against the whole Black middle class have been the subtext of a number of your comments in various conversations. Including conversations that don't directly involve class.

The ENDURING resentment of the entire Black middle class that I believe shines through some of your comments is part of what prompted me to write this particular post.

I'm not "making" the experience you described about anything. While discussing your experience, I've kept ALL of the possible motives open, INCLUDING your belief that the women involved were jealous of you.

As you quoted me, I said: "And, of course, you could very well be correct about their motives for refusing to give you what you asked of them." I've been open to considering the possibility that maybe you were correct in your assessment.

You are the one who is "making" this about one thing: the jealousy that you believe motivated ALL of these women's refusals to give you what you wanted. Which is predicated on your apparent belief that they owed you something. You are the one who is closed to even considering the very long list of other possible, and probable, reasons for their refusals.

You are also essentially closed to reconsidering the idea that you were somehow entitled to these women's help.

In summary, you are closed to even considering the possibility that your anger about that situation was/is misplaced. That is my point of contention in our exchange here.

My point of contention is not about disagreement. I can agree to disagree. My point of contention is what looks like a refusal to even consider other perspectives or possibilities before rejecting them out of hand.

I've reached the end of my road in terms of continuing to discuss this post with you. I agree to disagree with several of your views. However, if you wish to have the last word in our exchange, please feel free to do so.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

I've been desensitized to a certain degree to these crazy images, too! LOL! So it was White-woman-obsessed Quincy Jones who produced that mess? I don't know what his family background is.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the best standard practice is to affiliate with whoever is willing and able to bring mutual, reciprocal support. In the long run, that is the way to build an effective posse.

That's what my Dad did. He, as well as most of his running buddies, grew up poor. However, he was open to befriending people who befriended him. Whoever that was.

As he and his friends ascended into positions of influence, they used those newly-gained positions to help other posse members and their families. This is how they built their "juice" from the ground up. This is how true reciprocity works in this context. ["You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. And we're all happy."]

As he and his friends moved up the ranks, they came into increasing contact with people [Blacks and others] who had grown up with connections of various sorts. He also befriended people like this (as they befriended him).

Let me note for the record that Dad generally does NOT like White people. Not at all. And he's been consistently energetic about blasting and retaliating against racists. He is NOT a non-threatening, people pleasing, "grin and skin" sort of Black man.

However, he didn't cut off his nose to spite his face. If a White person treated him right and befriended him, then he responded with reciprocal positive behavior toward that White person.


Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Aphrodite,

Thank you and may God bless you for your response to DeStouet.

You have greatly contributed to what I had hoped for with this post: An opportunity for everyone to reexamine the ways we've mentally framed various scenarios. And to hopefully do so in a way that removes unhelpful ways of framing certain issues, and enhances our own lives.

Some things are best communicated, and more likely to be received, if they come from other survivors. THANK YOU.

May God's Peace and Mercy Be Upon You,
Khadija

DeStouet said...

Aphrodite,

Thank you for your response. It was literally a tear jerker.

It's funny, because I had not thought about these 3 women in a very long time. In fact, it wasn't even until this particular post that I realized I had a love/hate relationship with the middle class.

And so, you are absolutely correct, when you say I am looking at this through those same eyes I had as a child.

BTW, that face value statement you made really smacked me upside the head, because I would hate for these women not to have been middle class, and then for me to have been harboring these feelings about the entire middle class for no reason.

I was about ten years old, when I first asked a woman named Kathy for help. She was either the clinical director of the facility I was living in during that time, or the clinical facilitator.

The second time I was about 13 years old and the last time I was 16 years of age. I had just found out I was pregnant and was seeing a psychitrist. And it was this psychitrist that told me, I was too eager, showed too much initative.

I can't remember her words verbatim but she said something like, "In business, you'll never be the face of the company but the person behind the scenes, because people can see me coming from a mile away."

She suggested when I sought out help, that I learned to conceal my intentions so that people were not intimated by my attitude, or my energy. Because people would not know how to take me, especially if they knew about my background. They would question as to way I was so eager to learn, why I had so much drive, why I kept a smile on my face, where I get all of my confidence. When the truth was that I had no real reason to smile. I should be depressed, sad, angry and bitter like most of the people who came from backgrounds such as mines.

I stopped going to her because when she made those comments, I took it like she was saying I should stay in my place. Plus, whenever I shared something with her she wanted to know, why I felt like I was better than my relatives, better than my surroundings, better than the negativity. And I use to tell her, it was not that I felt better than, but I knew there was more in store for me.

I've always said, "As a child, I knew all people did not live like my parents, even though I had never saw an image of a healthy family until I was taken away from my parents at the age of ten."

She wanted to discuss that quote forever. So much so, that I started picking up more books by philosophers, prophets, and sages that spoke about the metaphysical/spiritual side of life because I began to understand that there was something special about me.

Your comments have really given me something to think about.

Thank you!

DeStouet said...

Khadija said, "The ENDURING resentment of the entire Black middle class that I believe shines through some of your comments is part of what prompted me to write this particular post."

I have no idea if this is true or not, but since I comment on your blog more than any other, I will take what you say into consideration.

I will say this, since I do a lot of commenting on this blog, I receive a lot of feedback. And it is in my personality to be extremely confident (which to many people comes off as arrogant) in both my position, and the fact that -if I am meant to "get" whatever the other person is trying to say to me- I will eventually get it.

I also do NOT "get" everything immediately. I am a writer, and many times I have to dissect, go back over and re-read what has been said to me. In fact, that is why I spend so much time on your blog. I am re-reading the comments.

And lastly, I am very stubborn and hard-headed. As I already mentioned, it is in my make-up to feel that whatever I am saying is right, and the way I do things is the only way to do things.

However, even with this personality, I am the very first person to apologize if and when I find out I was wrong.

So, if you are seeing something shine through my comments other than the things I just listed, I'll keep an eye out for that...because you may be right.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,


I have been trying to actually be alert and more critical of the things that I am hearing/seeing with regards to race, gender, and class as a result of visiting your blog.


I can see some of the signs in the air as far the things you mention regarding the BC community becoming a permanent underclass.

I mean there is a pay equity act recently signed in 2009. I know that women have always made less than women, but I am wondering how effective will this measure really be?

I heard that the RNC now has a new BM chair and yet Klan rallies are getting off the chain down here. the RNC move caught my attention bc I remember all the talk about Obama's win being symbolic and in regards to this - I am feeling there is something in the works. There has to be. Not to mention that I watched two political documentaries this weekend - one of which featured "voter data" companies openly discussed the tactics that they used in order to disenfranchise black and latino votes in Florida and Ohio.





"Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the best standard practice is to affiliate with whoever is willing and able to bring mutual, reciprocal support. In the long run, that is the way to build an effective posse."


You are correct. I am still stumbling a bit when it comes to vetting, but I am getting better.



" Thank you and may God bless you for your response to DeStouet."


No problem, I am glad that I was able to contribute something of value.







Hi DeStouet,

No problem about the response. I talk with and support survivors several times a week and we try to really help each other heal and move forward all the time as much as we can.





" And so, you are absolutely correct, when you say I am looking at this through those same eyes I had as a child.

BTW, that face value statement you made really smacked me upside the head, "



I wanted to say that these are very common among survivors. The first one - still seeing things through the eyes of a child is common for me. I am not multiple, but I do recognize that some parts of me are "stuck" at certain ages when it comes to certain issues.





You were so young when you asked for help. Again I don't know what the requests were, but it may have been that you were too young to act on the information or maybe there were other reasons.


I feel it would be good for you, if you haven't already, to connect with other women who have been in that situation. Be sure to vet and make sure that they are actively working on healing and preferably are far along in healing. I have actually heard a lot of horror stories from women who have been caught up in the system. I know that knowing this has happened to others won't erase the pain, but I feel it can help you feel less singled out and maybe stop the blame.


I will say that you were smart at that age to stop seeing her. I do think that she was insensitive and wrong for saying those things.




"And it was this psychitrist that told me, I was too eager, showed too much initative."


This could be a understated way of saying that you come across as aggressive. Sometimes women/girls when they show certain assertive behaviors they can be interpreted as aggressive by both men and women of any race/class. Her attitude towards this would depend on her upbringing, age, the time period this happened etc.




Or it could be a really poor way of explaining to a child in terms that she felt only a child could understand that you have little impulse control/no boundaries (eager) or that you were far too precocious (initiative) in a very inappropriate adult- like way. Which both could be common with covert sexual abuse because it forces the victim into becoming a surrogate emotional partner to the abuser and that behavior would naturally cross over into other relationships.




" I can't remember her words verbatim but she said something like, "In business, you'll never be the face of the company but the person behind the scenes, because people can see me coming from a mile away."'



This sounds like a really offhandedly cruel (thoughtless/detached) and misguided attempt to prepare you for life. She was probably looking at all the obstacles you were facing plus the way she thinks you come across to others (potentially aggressive) compounded with her experience seeing so many others in your situation or similar crash and burn. Some people in a sick way, think that they are protecting you from pain and are causing you to be "realistic" when they say things like that.


Or she could have (still cruelly though) been matter- of- factly been referring to what she thought you were capable of in light of your diagnosis/ the symptoms you were showing at that time.







" She suggested when I sought out help, that I learned to conceal my intentions so that people were not intimated by my attitude, or my energy."



It seems like this can fit into my explanations above re: coming on strong/being aggressive. Maybe she felt that you didn't have certain skills when it came to relating to people because of the abuse, if so it still could have been explained better. For example - what of you had no concept of appropriate physical space? What if when you approached people you knew and didn't know - you always violated the 19" space, but were unaware of it? I am just using it as an example - not saying that this is true about you.



But I do feel that if she critiqued you in this way that she should have at least helped you to lay the groundwork to develop better skills in this area.






" Because people would not know how to take me, especially if they knew about my background. They would question as to way I was so eager to learn, why I had so much drive,"


People can be dismissive/judgmental of survivors. It still happens now for example look at the response to BW/BG rape/molestation victims. But I don't see how the "learn/drive" part fits into this and 'they' would have no business knowing about your background especially upfront.




" why I kept a smile on my face, where I get all of my confidence. When the truth was that I had no real reason to smile. I should be depressed, sad, angry and bitter like most of the people who came from backgrounds such as mines."


This could be another misguided attempt/bad advice. I could kinda see this happening in the context of race (even the learn/drive part), but the people you would deal with would have no business knowing your background.


Or she was just dysfunctional. Just because she was a psychiatrist doesn't mean that she was functional, healthy, or not an abuser.



Or, and this is the only way that I can see her saying that to you and being sane is if she was trying to provoke you into facing an issue that she felt you hadn't faced yet. If she felt that you were masking/burying your pain, shame, grief, sadness etc she could have been trying to get you to "go there" because no one can endure childhood abuse and and not have it affect them.




My response to some things that happened to me were that I learned to "hide". I was so good at it that people still tell me today that I can be very hard to read emotionally which can count against me in some circumstances, say an interview perhaps, and I have to consciously alter this. People tell me even now that I can come across as aloof, or serene (depending on who you ask), but inside I am actually feeling neither at the time. I have also been told I appear naive, innocent, and sheltered from "the harsh realities of life". LOL




At any rate I am not saying that this is you, or your experience, but I am just saying that - that was my mask. Those were my coping mechanisms i developed as a child. I still had emotion, but couldn't I name them, acknowledge them, understand their nuances, or express them at all.



I know that massive amounts of misplaced guilt,rage, sorrow, grief, raw pain etc was there while the abuse was occuring, but it only came out when it was safe to do so in my adult therapy.



Psychiatrists, psychologists, therapist, social workers, and counselors all have different methods. Some use dialectical behavioral, cognitive behavioral, gestalt, rogerian, humanistic approaches etc and so on ad infinitum.


One of those approaches, I can't remember the name of, but I saw a video in one of my psych classes where the psychiatrist was aggressively "going after" the patient in order to force the guy to stop dancing around an issue. I don't think he was being abusive, but he was relentless and everyone in the class was pretty shocked at how bold he was.



Another example is that I had a therapist friend once share with me that she had a terminal cancer patient whom she was treating and this woman's attitude was "la de da, life is a party, I know I am going to die - so what?", but she intuitively felt that this woman had not fully connected with the fact that this really was it for her. This was the end and so she did thinks to kind of provoke her to get her to face that it really is that bad so that she can begin processing all the emotions that come along with dying.


Something similar could have been the case for you. She could have been trying to coerce painful emotions like that out. I feel that maybe play therapy would have been more appropriate for you at those ages, but that may not have happened for a number of reasons too - cost could have been one. Gov agencies or facilities that are strapped financially can compromise the quantity, frequency, and quality of your care. The could have had the attitude in order to save the most money will give the minimal amount of treatment to get well etc.





"I stopped going to her because when she made those comments, I took it like she was saying I should stay in my place."



Which was a good thing to do because her help was harmful in my opinion no matter the good intentions and it seemed like she was not a good fit for you at all.




"Plus, whenever I shared something with her she wanted to know, why I felt like I was better than my relatives, better than my surroundings, better than the negativity. And I use to tell her, it was not that I felt better than, but I knew there was more in store for me."



I am glad that you had that belief. I am sure that it carried you through much. We all need hope.



The only way that I can see her second guessing you in this way is if she thought that you had a borderline personality disorder. A few of my survivor friends have taken DBT and it is a hugely popular treatment for for BPD (among other diagnoses) and they tell me that they are always being treated in that way. They will say x and then the T or whatnot will come back and say "So what you're really saying/meant is y." And they would say no- I mean X and it would go back and forth like that ad infinitum.





"I've always said, "As a child, I knew all people did not live like my parents, even though I had never saw an image of a healthy family until I was taken away from my parents at the age of ten."

She wanted to discuss that quote forever."



She may have been more than likely studying you. As in literally using you as a teaching/research aide or to compile data. I mean how do you think we got that vid for psych class or how do you think that psychology/psychiatric manuals are put together? You literally could be patient B on page 357 somewhere.



I have never been to a psychiatrist, but I have heard from people who have that they are different. They typically don't engage their patients on the level that a therapist/psychologist/counselor would. They seem to focus on meds and research and seem to be more scientific/mathematical in their approaches.


So their very distant and clinical approaches can be offputting for someone who maybe wants and needs something more personal and humanistic. I have never heard of a shrink giving a client a hug, but myself and other survivors have gotten plenty (when we are ready or really need to) from T's.



When she kept going over the things it may not have been that she was saying that you shouldn't think or feel the positive things- I feel she was literally trying to get inside your head to figure out where you were and how you arrived at the conclusions. That is what shrinks do.





Also in combination with approach whatever your diagnosis was definitely colored the ways that they responded or didn't respond to you. Depending on your diagnosis they may have expected you to say

"the voices told me so"

or

I have an angel/imaginary friend


fill in the blank.


Some of what you said sounds like a combination of her "provoking" and looking at you in a detached clinical manner i.e. the petri dish under the microscope.



"So much so, that I started picking up more books by philosophers, prophets, and sages that spoke about the metaphysical/spiritual side of life because I began to understand that there was something special about me."


I experimented with a lot of religions at a young age too, but for different reasons.


You are special. I think that all of us are created with a special purpose in mind and have our own divine reasons/missions for being here.



I want to say that these are just my thoughts and again I respect how you chose to deal with/interpret things. I am not making excuses for her or taking her side. Or saying that she was right...etc.







" I also do NOT "get" everything immediately.

and many times I have to dissect, go back over and re-read what has been said to me."



This can be a natural learning style, but sometimes this can be common with many survivors.


Thinking of you and sending you lots of healing thoughts.