Sunday, October 5, 2008

The Difference Between Legitimate Dissent and Sabotage

I've been watching (and in one case, participated in) several blog discussions that are taking place at two of the blogs listed on my sidebar. The first discussion is over at Evia's blog, Black Female Interracial Marriage Ezine. Evia's been discussing Chris Rock's defamatory tirade against Black women in his latest show. The other discussion is at Gina's blog, What About Our Daughters. She's been discussing the security video showing a Black man punching a 16-year old Black girl in the line of a Los Angeles McDonald's.

Gina makes the comment that there are people who resent the very idea of anybody calling attention to a wrong that was done to a Black woman or girl. She's right. It's disturbing that many of these people are Black women themselves. What's even worse is the confusion that these Black female collaborators cause among the ranks of Black women. People who want to excuse, minimize and enable the harm done by Damaged Beyond Repair Black Men (DBRBM) often hide behind several masks: the mask of presenting legitimate dissenting opinions, the mask of being concerned for all Black people, and the mask of being concerned for all women around the globe. The cover stories are endless. Here's a quick guide to spotting internal saboteurs who are actually opposed to saving Black women's lives:

1-Is the person minimizing the extent and severity of the attacks on Black women in this country? If so, that's a clear sign that this person doesn't care about the suffering of Black women and girls. People who don't care about the atrocities being committed against Black women and girls are enemies to Black women and girls. This includes many Black women.

2-Is the person playing the "Victim Sweepstakes Game" by weighing Black women's suffering against that of others? Saboteurs are quick to claim that Black men "have it worse." No matter what. Including those Black men who are beating, robbing, raping and killing Black women and girls. Saboteurs are also quick to claim that Black women in the US have it so much better than foreign women. I guess the victim of the Dunbar Village gang rape (who was forced to perform oral sex on her own son) should feel lucky that she's not overseas. Playing the Victim Sweepstakes Game is a clear sign of bad faith and bad intentions toward Black women and girls.

Reject the Victim Sweepstakes Game out of hand when it's presented to you! Evil is evil. ALL evil should be resisted. Priority should be given to fighting the evil that hits closest to home. After all, if you're destroyed by the demon next door (or the demon in your house), you're not in any position to help anybody else across the globe. It's really that simple. This simple concept is why airlines instruct passengers to put their own oxygen masks on first before trying to help anybody else.

3-Is the person hell-bent on trying to discourage you from protecting yourself against attacks? Is the person focused on trying to stop you from punishing those individuals who attack Black women and girls? In the context of the ongoing war against Black women and girls, legitimate dissent is when a person says "I disagree with blah-blah. Here are the reasons why I disagree with blah-blah. Therefore, I won't support blah-blah action." And leaves it at that. People who are fixated on stopping you from taking action against those who attack Black women and girls, want you to remain under attack. They want you to remain defenseless. They want you (and women like you) to suffer. By supporting the status quo, they are supporting a continuation of Black women's and girls' suffering.

This is true no matter how much (or how loudly) such a person screams that they support Black women. If they are engaged in the above-listed behaviors they are most likely a saboteur. Treat them as such.

45 comments:

CW said...

Amen & Amen...How many times we have all heard the following:

"Why you gonna send that brother to jail?"

"He has it hard enough out here"

"We've dealt with in (in silence) and moved on"

Anonymiss said...

Hey Khadijah,
This reminds me of two sad incidents.

1. R. Kelly - It amazed me how ppl were ready to give up their first borns to support that jerk. I can't figure out why so many of our ppl have bought into the racist and sexist idea that Blk girls are just "fast a****." I don't see beliefs like that being held so popularly about White girls in the White world.

2. Nikki Giovanni - I find her disappointing. When that Eminem racist tape episode went down, she was there to chime in (via The Source magazine), with foolish Negroes like Benzino and Irv Gotti, that Eminem was wrong for his previous statements about Blk women. I just wanna know how she feels about the talentless rappers that make a killing off of disrespecting Blk women and girls? The only person that critiqued the mistreatment of sistas by brothas (when also lending his opinion to The Source) was a Black Puerto Rican by the name of Crazy Legs.

Did you catch this video by Faizon Love?

Khadija said...

Welcome, CW!

Yes, we've all heard that mess. Some of the DBR-enablers have gotten more sophisticated; and have learned not to directly say that they don't want the predator punished. Instead, they talk about "educating" the predator, and "alternative solutions" instead of prison.

That's why I was pleased that Miss Jeannie over at Evia's site ultimately told on herself by belittling the extent & severity of the attacks against BW & girls. She also told on herself by assigning greater priority to other women's issues. Sometimes it takes a few rounds back & forth with these DBR-enablers for them to inadvertently reveal their true motives.

I've come to realize that the DBR-enablers are (in many ways) as big a threat as the DBRBMs themselves. They confuse some people into thinking that it's wrong for BW to protect themselves. These DBR-enablers must also be fought tooth & nail!
___________________

Welcome, Anonymiss!

About the open & notorious pedophile, R.Kelly: All of this boils down to not caring at all about the lives of Black girls. You see, Black women & girls are disposable according to the masses of Black people.

That's why it's so important that we do what we can to punish predators. Punishing predators assigns a value to Black women & girls.

About Nikki Giovanni: She's probably trying to stay "relevant" by supporting hip-hop creatures. I remember how C. Delores Tucker warned us about these rap creatures years & their "product" years ago (God rest her soul). She was called everything but a child of God. And most "responsible" Black adults did & said nothing. We wanted to be supportive of the young-uns & their "art." Well, for me them days are long over!

No, I didn't see the video. I don't know who "Faizon Love" or the rest of these creatures are. And I don't care. I clicked the link, but when I discovered the link was to a hip-hop website I immediately clicked off.

You see, I refuse to listen to the mewlings of hip-hop creatures. They are worthless. What they think is worthless.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymiss said...

Khadijah,
Not everything of Hip Hop culture is sordid trash. Rosa Clemente is a fine example of that. A lot of it is actually good when you consider their community-based initiatives. And that site (ran by a good friend of mine) that has the video that I embedded in my previous post isn't of the sordid variety.

I'm a member of a Hip Hop meetup group that centers around educating and entertaining Hip Hop heads from the purists perspective. And they do NOT embrace rap music or Viacom networks that glorify and promote misogyny and violence.

I know how you feel about mainstream Rap music as most of what makes it to the radio and Viacom networks are trash. But that doesn't speak for the culture collectively.

DeStouet said...

sabotage...i really like that word and would have never thought to use it against another black woman who claimed to love us.

i personally didn't participate in the discussion at evia's but was watching it and when i checked out jeannie's comment in "clearing the air" was deeply disappointed in what she said about how black women in other countries are treated much worse.

when i lived in Germany these kinds of conversations use to take place with the Africans who lived there, and no matter what i said, it was always worse in Africa and everything was sweet in America. They believed that i should be grateful to live here. for a while, i just listened because i really had no idea what to say. their examples always seemed to really be worse BUT then one day i used an example of something that happened to me, and they sucked their teeth, frowned their face, and did the little waving of the hand (that scoot "get out of my face" hand wave some of them are famous for) and I blew up. How dare they minimize my experience because i lived in America? To do so was downright insensitive and rude. from that day on I realized as you said, "evil is evil" and let them know so. after that i stood our ground against them Africans. they were so very cold and heartless against our struggle, believing that we had it so easy here in America, that eventually i had to stop socializing with those brothers and sisters because although they were very intelligent (college educated & knowledgeable about various subjects) they seemed to want to believe there was a difference between the evils and injustices taking place here and over there --and that sh!t use to bother the hell out of me.

Phantom Mare said...

First time visiting sis.

GREAT BLOG..so many wonderful blogs out, I have to start making bigger rounds again...LOL.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I saw all of those too!

Women like that seem hopelessly male-identified and dependent upon male approval. They have certainly learned that men matter more and women's value is worthless. Pitiful and contemptible.

And we must never forget that quite often their rallying cry (especially among the black men) is that black women who speak up for black women must be acting in pursuit of some illegitimate feminism. Pure ignorance!

Khadija said...

Hello there, Anonymiss!

I'll take your word for it. I'm at a point where I refuse to sift through the hip-hop "product" to find the few pearls rumored to be hidden within piles of excrement.

I will resist the urge to go on a long, frothy rant about how hip-hop "music" and street "lit" are invasive weeds that have crowded out real music and real literature. {Okay...I'm stopping now. LOL!}
_____________________

Welcome, DeStouet!

Saboteur is one of the nicer words that come to mind about such persons. There are other words I could use such as traitor, collaborator, Judas, quisling, agent provocateur, etc. Whatever one wants to call them, these brain-dead chicks are really beginning to sicken me.

I'm also disgusted by the Victim Sweepstakes Games & Comparative Evil Discussions. What people don't seem to comprehend is that by presuming to weigh evil, you are putting your hands on it. The taint rubs off & seeps into your skin. It's dangerous to try to weigh evil. Evil must be fought, NOT measured!

I believe this is why those people who have settled for so-called "lesser" evils get so angry with people who refuse to compromise their principles. They are usually angrier with the non-compromisers than they are with the so-called "lesser" evil. They are envious of how the non-compromiser stayed clean of the "lesser" evil they compromised with.

Good for you for setting folks straight. Sometimes America-worshipping immigrants are the 1st ones to lose their minds when faced with the difficulties we've dealt with for centuries. I'm thinking about the West Indian who shot up White folks on the subway on the East coast (New York? New Jersey?). I'm also thinking of the angry Korean who killed all those people at Virginia Tech.
________________________

Welcome, Phantom Mare!

Thanks so much for your kind words, sis! I've learned a lot from reading your work. If I remember correctly, you were the one who wrote a post comparing Black residential areas to dangerous ruins. Dangerous ruins that Black men have abandoned long ago; while the women & children still wander within. True that!
_______________________________

Welcome, Pioneer Valley Woman!

You said it right when you described these chicks as hopelessly male-identified and dependent upon male approval. Even though sisters like Rev. Lisa have dissected the "gravedigger" mindset, I still find it amazing to behold.

These females aren't getting anything in exchange for their undying support! The vast majority of BM are NOT protecting them. The same way the vast majority of BM are not protecting the rest of us OR Black children. The same BM that passively watched that teenage girl get pummelled would have and WILL watch women like Jeannie get attacked.

Oh yeah, about the "smearing by accusations of following White feminists": The next time I hear something like that, I'll probably let myself go off "full-blast progressive Muslim zealot" about how anybody who knowingly supports predators is an agent of Satan. For real.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymous said...

I deal with these sabateours in one way - ignore them. I will not debate my humanity and my right to life, liberty, peace, safety, freedom and every good thing with anyone. These things were given to me by God Himself and I won't conceed them to anyone. They are not even up for debate or discussion. My sisters, protect yourselves against ANYONE out to do you harm - be it male or female.
Signed,
Stealthkitty

DeStouet said...

pioneervalleywoman & khadija,

i want to focus on this paragraph a little bit.

"Women like that seem hopelessly male-identified and dependent upon male approval. They have certainly learned that men matter more and women's value is worthless. Pitiful and contemptible."

I know I keep repeating this but until a little under a month ago i still believed in the contract. then by the grace of God, i stumbled upon sister khadija's comments and was literally blown away. i copied and pasted everything she said and put it into a folder for future reference.

i think you guys are minimizing the message that you are bringing to black woman and their female offspring. Reciprocity and Entitlement. Being Ruthless. These are things I've waited my entire life to hear from the lips of another woman. Why, you ask?

Who do you think shut my door to respect as a child? Women, that's who. Who do you think have told me to pray for the men that sexually molested me as a child? Women. Who do you think told me it was possible to change a man by just supporting him when he needed it? Who do you think opened my eyes to the black male plight and asked me to deny myself of respect and happiness while my oldest daughter father ran the streets cheating on me? Women. It has always been women who have neglected to support me after a man did me dirty. Whether it was my brother, my boyfriend, my father or my uncle. I was told to understand how hard and difficult a black man's life was here in America, and I did just that. I understood.

Now, I am 29 years old and it is women (YOU GUYS) who are helping me to restore my soul. It is women telling me that I am ENTITLED to happiness. It is women who are replenishing what was taken away from me many years ago. Women.
It is women who are helping me connect the dots so that I can teach my daughter the "new" way.

I have never heard women speak so adamantly about what the black women is entitled to, and what she has been cheated out of by continuing to support the black male. I get out, I socialize, I listen, I participate, and I've waited but not one word was uttered by black women --who I am NOW certain knew the way. You women are not laughing at dumb stupid ghetto chicks, or young college educated women while at the same time telling them to widen their dating pool. You are sympathetic towards their struggle. I'm reading/hearing comments from women who I believe genuinely want to help their sisters. I've NEVER. HEARD. THIS. KIND. OF. TALK. Sure, I've heard many women briefly mention something in passing about being entitled to happiness but they were most defiantly laughing at us at the same time.

In a little under a month, I've been built back up as Khadija said in a prior post "brick by brick" by the same gender that once tore me apart and then kept me down.

I admit, I am married to an extraordinary black man. He has God's stamp of approval, I know. And with his unconditional love he has shown me the "way." But it is different when you have women telling you what you are deserving of. It's quite another matter when you have women telling you to jump ship, and take no crap from any man. It makes a world of difference because it was women who once told me otherwise.

Anyway, you all are doing a remarkable job and none of you will ever know the ways you have touched my heart, changed my thinking and made me RUTHLESS.

Thank you.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Other striking observations:

1. The notion of showing "mercy," in order to receive mercy. Is that the appropriate stance for victims to take regarding oppressors?

2. The qualification that to talk about black male oppressors is wrong because there are plenty of good black men out there.

Nothing in the post said all black men were bad, and all the previous conversations indicated quite clearly that the good ones are to be celebrated.

Yet, when black male comedians denigrate black women, they do not differentiate!

The same courtesy these saboteurs want to give the comedians--don't talk badly about black men, don't put them all in one box--is not given in return!

DeStouet said...

@pioneervalleywoman,

you really hit the nail when you brought up mercy.

mercy...mercy...mercy...show mercy.

i've heard that my entire life. just last week i was sharing with my father what i've been learning about reciprocity and entitlement. it just flowed forth from my heart in abundance. he listened to everything i said and then told me to have mercy and pray for the souls of the men who violated me so that one day they can repent for their sins. so, i changed the subject and told him about me cutting all ties to my biological family on my mother's side for similar reasons and he suggested that I remember to be humble. God doesn't like arrogance. I responded by telling him I have always been humble and merciful. I asked him to tell me when was there a time when I was NOT? And he couldn't tell me.

We left it at that for many reasons. One reason being any change I make is contributed to my husband...which I really hate. No one in my family believes I navigated my life. The only people who know of the work I have done is my husband's family and that is because they have watched me grow. Two because our relationship is pretty strained because he was a dead beat father and until recently I wanted nothing to do with him.

You know, I don't know if it is appropriate to show mercy to oppressors but I'm not going to worry about that right now. I am going to swim in this pool of freedom and worry about my needs for a while. If I slight anyone along the way, I'll deal with that later.
I'm also staying away from articles, and essays concerning the black male here in America.

And to show my father how much mercy I will have on those sick bastards, I got in contact with the Special Victims Unit in Philadelphia yesterday and ask the officer whom I was speaking to about the statue of limitations on sexual assaults in Philadelphia. Although the time limit has passed, I was told I can still file a police report.

When I relocate back to Pennsylvania next year I am going to report my abuse. I am. I was told too much time has passed because I was not raped but they can still take the report. That small gesture really means so much to me...reporting to the police officers what took place years ago when I was just a little girl.

tasha212 said...

Khadijah,

Great post, as usual. I read the comments at Gina's blog and was blown away. There is no excuse to attack anyone, especially not a child when you are an adult. Yes, black men have it hard. SO DO WE!!. Racism and white supremacy is not an excuse to beat anyone over the head. It is not an excuse to rape, kidnap, burn, or murder someone. It is not an excuse to watch someone being violated in anyway and remain silent. There is simply no excuse for acting like an animal. PERIOD. And until as women we have that standard and hold everyone to that standard we will continue to have problems. I continue to be dishearened by the sabatoge that black women perpetuate against other black women. We continue to support black men above all else, even when it is clear that it is to our detriment. When will it end?

Tasha

Khadija said...

Ladies,

I've been so touched by your most recent comments that (even though I try very hard to be calm in my comments) I'm going to let myself have an unedited "progressive zealot rant":

@Stealthkitty:

Your point about our God-given rights is critical to our individual & collective survival! Understanding this one point clears up many potentially confusing (for some) issues.

For example, children have the God-given right to NOT be sexually molested and urinated on. Since God (glory be to Him) gave these rights, it is NOT up for a vote as to whether or not children have this right. Since God gave children these rights, it is NOT up to any particular child to give away the right to not be molested or urinated on.

Therefore, any argument about what R.Kelly's child victims "want" or "consent" to is totally irrelevant. [In addition to being offensive and evil.]

Only God Almighty has the authority to rescind or take back rights that He has bestowed upon people. Adults have the free will to choose not to exercise their God-given rights. An adult choosing not to exercise a God-given right still does NOT give anyone the authority to rescind this right.

Children don't get to exercise free will about some of their rights. It's their parents' duty to make sure that children's God-given rights are available & enjoyed.
_________________

@Pioneer Valley Woman:

I'm happy you brought up the issue of faux mercy. Many of us have no real clue as to what mercy consists of. We misuse this word a lot. True mercy consists of the following 3 ingredients:

1-Having a legitimate right to retaliate against someone who has committed an injustice upon you; AND:

2-Having the actual ability to retaliate against that person; AND:

3-Choosing not to retaliate against that person.

Saboteurs and conquered people (like Black folks) misuse the word mercy. We like to confuse being too weak & powerless to retaliate against our oppressors with showing mercy. We also like to confuse not having any self-respect (to be protected) with showing mercy.

It helps soothe our wounded self-respect. After all, it wouldn't feel good to acknowledge that we have resigned ourselves to allowing other people to move their bowels on us. So, we say that we're showing "mercy."

In the case of the saboteurs that we're discussing, they never felt that there was any legitimate right to retaliate. Note that Jeannie tried to contrast our "looking to be offended everytime somebody says something" with what she considers "REAL" wrongs that are being done.

Black female saboteurs feel the same way about Black women that many Whites felt (and some still feel) about Blacks in general: That Black women have NO rights whatsoever that Black men are obligated to respect!
______________________

@DeStouet:

I praise God Almighty for your victory in contacting the police about the grave, Satanic wrong that was done to you! May your steps remain firm along your path of healing and wholeness.

Let me stress this one point before I get into other topics. Don't let anybody try to tell you that making a police report is "retaliation" or "taking revenge." Child molesters running wild & running loose is a matter of public safety! Every adult has the DUTY to report such. . . beings to the proper authorities. These...beings...pose a risk to every single child around them.

About fake mercy: Is it "merciful" to enable these...beings...to compound their sins? Most Black folks like to claim to be spiritual people. So I would ask such persons how is it showing "mercy" to enable people to add more & more gasoline to the lake of fire that is awaiting them?

It is reported that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) instructed Muslims to help fellow Muslims, whether they are oppressed or the oppressor. This caused much confusion until he finished the statement and explained that you help the Muslim oppressor by stopping him from continuing to engage in oppression. You help the wrongdoer by stopping him from committing additional wrongs.

About BW aiding & abetting the oppression of other BW: I think it's about envy at the core. The thinking is: "Why should you have it any better than me? Who are you to insist upon a life filled with abundance and joy? Especially since I've settled for so little. Screw you."

As far as I'm concerned, these types of BW are the moral equivalent of the Arab/Pakistani/Afghan women who cooperate with the "honor"-inspired murders of their own daughters. They. Are. Scum. [See, I'm not biting my tongue with this comment.]

Finally, thank you, DeStouet, for your kind words about my comments. I'm just trying to pay it forward. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. The Dunbar Village Atrocity and its aftermath shocked me out of the Black Nationalist trance I had been in for the past 20-odd years since college.

Having access to the thought-provoking & inspiring essays by sisters like Pioneer Valley Woman & Evia helped me greatly. I can't thank them enough. I was extremely disoriented after my worldview (in terms of Black issues) collapsed in the face of the Dunbar Village Atrocity & aftermath. Just over a year & a half ago, I would have loudly denounced these sisters as bootlicking oreos.

You can imagine how shocked I was to discover that they were right & I was wrong about MANY things. You see, I knew Black folks had serious problems. But I didn't understand that we were really on the cusp of a Rwanda-style meltdown. I also didn't understand that BM (for the most part) aren't "in it together with us."

Now that I know "what time it is," I have vowed to do my part to salvage as many Black women & children as possible from the coming self-genocide in Black residential areas.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

@Tasha:

{I'm still in frothy rant mode} To answer your question: It ends when the last one of these saboteurs falls to the ground in the very real wilderness of Black residential areas.

These are the same chicks that will come running to the rest of us looking for help after one of their precious DBRBM harms them or their children. I won't help them in their time of need. I'll play the nut role and ask, "Problem? What problem? BW have it pretty good here in the U-S-of-A. What could your problem possibly be?"

Can you tell that I'm quite annoyed with these heifers right now?

You see, Black people (of both genders) who want to survive (AND thrive) are "voting with their feet" and getting as far away as possible from DBRBM-infested Black residential areas. What the BF saboteurs don't understand is that it is/was OUR presence that provided whatever refuge & assistance that existed in these areas.

BF saboteurs DON'T support other BW. They don't even help other BF saboteurs. They're much too busy propping up Black men to respond to other BW's needs. In many ways the BF saboteurs depend on the (dare I say it) "seditty" types for uplift and succor.

It will be similar to the way the Section-8-wielding Black underclass found out what happens when middle-class Black folks run away from the areas they invaded. These neighborhoods then morph into the hellholes that the underclass fled.

These BF saboteurs will find out what happens when the only other Black folks in their presence are other BF saboteurs & DBRBM: Nothing nice. Like I told a BF coworker who was singing the "don't look down on de po' Black ex-convicts" song: Fine! Let's round up all the Black ex-cons and put them in your neighborhood. And while we're at it, let's also put all the social service agencies that they utilize next to your house.

Okay. The foam is dripping from my lips. I have to stop the tape running for a minute. Whew!!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Stealthkitty said...

Ladies - it does my heart and spirit good to visit this blog. Thanks to Khadija and you all. What can I say except Amen. I agree. I have to say that of the two, the female sabateour is the worst. She is a double traitor and deceiver. She will often help the abuser obtain and gain access to his next victim. You know the type of woman I am referring to. Women like the mothers of R. Kelley's teenage rape victims. Blinded by the bling, she hands over her teenage daughter to the wolf. Another category - the mothers of the serial impregnators who will raise her son's illegitimate children from baby to adulthood while he is out getting other women pregnant and not taking care of any of his responsibilities - yet this same mother will charge her daughter for looking after her kids for a few hours while the daughter works. Enabler and sabateur. I have gotten into some pretty heated discussion with some women around the small southern town where I live who are raising their grandchildren - the son's kids. These grandkids call the grandmother, mama. Some of these folks don't see what they are doing as enabling an abuser. When I explain to them that this is exactly what they are doing - they just go into auto-denial and claim that they just do it because they love their grandchildren. Yet, they don't have a problem setting boundaries when it comes to the children of their daughters.

Khadija said...

Stealthkitty,

You're welcome; and thank YOU and all the other sisters who are generous enough to share their thoughts!

Oh no, "Peaches" will never be given the endless free ride that "Ray-Ray" gets from these grandmothers. These grandmothers will quickly tell Peaches that she needs to either get a job and/or get her own public aid check!

I also question the lack of humility & insight of this type of grandmother. I saw them everyday in the child welfare courtrooms. They never acknowledge that they failed in raising their child (which is the reason why they're raising their grandchildren).

You never know what you'll do until you're in a situation. However, I'm pretty sure that I would try to do a post-mortem of where I went wrong raising my child. And vow to not make the same mistakes with the grandchildren.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

foreverloyal said...

All I can say is, HOORAY Khadija finally has a blog!
You do not disappoint, masha'allah.

Khadija said...

Salaam Alaikum, Forever Loyal!

Thank you for stopping by, and for your kind words! I truly appreciate it.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

elg said...

stealthkitty & khadija: While I agree with your anger against black male irreponsibility, I have to take issue with stealthkitty's example of grandmothers raising their sons's children. If grandma is raising her son's kids alone, then obviously the MOTHERS of those same kids are also just as irreponsible as the father. If grandma is raising her grandkids, both "PARENTS" are irresponsible.

Also, why do so many black women have babies out of wedlock by men who don't want them for ANYTHING except sex? In fact, why do so many black women have sex with men who don't want them for ANYTHING except sex UNLESS that's all they want from the man? Aren't these black women also irresponsible? If so, you need to dissect these black women just like you dissect black men.

Black men should be far more responsible then many of them are but many black women should be more responsible as well.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija and Destouet!

Thanks so much for your kind words!

I think much of my perspective comes from not signing "the contract."

Some of my earliest thinking (from junior high school, high school and onwards) was grounded not in being "black male identified," but in "black female identified," insofar as I was interested not in black men's empowerment, but in black women's empowerment.

I'm a woman, what in the world could I possibly have to say to a man about being a man? That is for men to talk about and argue about among themselves. Not my problem. Sacriligeous, for a young woman to say to her black male peers, but I had no problem doing so.

I wanted to know about what affected our status in society.

I will never forget reading about black women caught up in the drug epidemic of the 1980s. In my mind, it all came back to how they became addicts: some man got them strung out; some man got them selling their bodies for drugs, etc.

Having children by men who were unsupportive led black women into poverty. Women have to focus on their professional development in order to survive.

None of this, "help the struggling black man"; in my mind, "help the struggling black woman".

So I could read literature by black male nationalists, and then say, where is the stuff on women? I could then go find the stuff about black women.

I was fortunate in college and graduate school to study with female professors who could teach me not only black history, but women's history: how have black women dealt with disempowerment? What strategies and mindsets have they used to empower themselves?

Khadija said...

Welcome, ELG!

In response to your question/statement:

1-You know & I know that Stealthkitty & I were critical of everybody involved in the grandmother raising their grandchildren scenario. Especially the FEMALE grandmothers.

I didn't hear either of us make flattering statements regarding any of the women involved in such a a scenario. Why are you acting as if only "Black male irresponsibility" was singled out for critique?

This is what is wrong with the Tit-For-Tat & Comparative Evil ideology. If I point out something WRONG that large numbers of BM are doing, I am NOT then obligated to make a corresponding comment about what BW are doing that's wrong. Evil is evil.

There's no quota when it comes to opposing evil. Where did this notion come from that I can't talk about "x" UNLESS I also mention "y"? I reject that notion.

2-You know & I know that when grandmothers are raising their son's children, it's usually because the mother is a drug addict. You & I know this because you & I know that, unlike BM, the vast majority of BW don't abandon their own flesh & blood.

Something has to be seriously wrong before a BW will walk out on her children. Something like drug addiction. You already know this. Anybody who has lived among and observed Black folks knows this and the other things I've mentioned.

3-You know & I know that so many BW settle for the status of baby-mama because they have limited themselves to a dwindling & increasingly toxic pool of BM as dating partners. You know & I know that it is human nature to exploit opportunities. Therefore, it is NOT surprising that many BM take advantage of the shortage of eligible BM. People will do whatever their particular "market" will bear. I believe that supply/demand concepts apply to human interactions.

I firmly believe that this baby-mama situation will resolve itself naturally when more BW start to date and marry outside the race. Once more BW remove themselves from the toxic Black relationship market, the supply of willing and available potential husbands for them will increase.

Other races of men are more likely to be raised & conditioned to actually want to be husbands with legitimate families. Furthermore, because they are much more likely to have grown up with their fathers within legitimate families, other races of men tend to NOT need as much remedial & special education type coaching about how & why it's important to be a husband while being a father.

You know & I know that most men from other races are married with legitimate families by the time they are in their early 30s. Other races of men have been observed (by all) to have a much stronger ethic of wanting to be providers and protectors of their women & children.

Before you (perhaps deliberately) misconstrue what I am saying, let me say the following: I am NOT saying that paradise exists with non-Blacks. I AM saying that Black folks are the only ones who have (in some cases eagerly) allowed a situation to develop where the vast majority of their children are bastards. [I'm deliberately using the archaic, legal term for this.]

We are the only ones who pretend that weekend fathering & tele-fathering are acceptable substitutes for husbands & fathers living in the same homes as their children.

Anyone who wants to raise a mentally healthy, wholesome, legtitimate family must get far away from such thinking and such negative influences. In my opinion, the "mainstream" Black collective has become fatally poisoned with such dysfunctional accepted ideas. Other races of people have their own issues, but they have NOT allowed their collectives to become this deranged.

It's very simple. More BW need to jump off of the Titanic & evacuate Black residential areas & most Black social circles.

4-I invite you to come back & share some more of your thoughts. As I say in the comments guidelines above, "this blog seeks to foster a courteous, reasoned exchange of ideas." As was the point of this particular post, there is a distinction between legitmate dissent (which I welcome) and people trying to obstruct/block/sabotage BW's efforts are self-defense & self-liberation.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Pioneer Valley Woman,

Thank God for those of us who were never caught up in "the contract." It's a blessing for us all because you've had the time to thoroughly think these issues through. I'm still playing catch-up in terms of analyzing BW's collective prospects.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Halima said...

Hi Khadija, I’ve been following your blog and can i say that the black community is truly poorer for somehow managing to stamp out this level of analysis from our midst!

Can I add a few words.

I think there are a significant portion of us bw who defend the victimization of bw knowingly (having themselves become willingly male-identified or subscribed to the idea of it being ok to subordinate bw to the community), however I believe there are a whole group of bw who are 'trained' in their responses on these issues.

I think it comes largely from watching other bw (and our elders and aunties in particular) maneuver their speech round black men’s blame. I think many bw take on this ‘style and pattern’ of discoursing and 'shaping' of analysis (maybe guided by the deep down inculcated conviction that it is essential to avoid blaming bm).

Sometimes it seems to me, very 'formulaic', the way many bw respond to these discussions. There appears a general structure to these responses under the most basic observation.

My predicament is, how do we separate and thus reclaim bw who are essentially parroting the manner of conversations, from those who ‘own’ these ideas, particularly because both groups speak with same intensity and conviction. Also these women can often be extremely defensive when confronted about what they are doing (mostly unknowingly).

Also for many bw who parrot these patterns of responses to bw victimisation, I can often sense other things going on. When such a discussion comes up, it becomes an avenue, an opportunity to (in no particular order):

*placate bm,

*win the affection of bm back to bw,

*say something positive about their race,

*prevent white folks from capitalizing on black weakness,

*show themselves good and approved of bw who defend their community …

the list is almost endless! I believe, this inability to just focus on the issue for the issue itself, (ie an incident of victimization of bw), without all these other 'uses of the situation' coming up, that shapes many of such responses.

sorry for rambling!

Khadija said...

Welcome, Halima!

Thank you so much for visiting, and for your kind words! I truly appreciate it.

What you're describing is the effect of unquestioned dogma. Unfortunately, due to our collective aversion to critical thinking, most of us don't do any reality-testing of our cherished beliefs.

This is what I tell the "parrots" who are repeating formulaic talking points:

1-I'm committed to telling the plain truth. What about you?

2-Regardless of what we say, people see the truth of what we're collectively doing. So, you're not fooling anybody by repeating the standard talking points.

3-The talking points also aren't accomplishing any of your goals. You're not fooling outsiders. BM aren't being "won back" to the so-called community. Collectively, most BM have NO affection for you or Black children. You're not respected.

In fact, the circumstances of BW's collective lives are getting drastically worse by the minute. Your daughters' prospects are getting worse & worse the longer they remain among the rest of us.

4-Since the status quo of repeating obsolete slogans is NOT working, isn't it time for a change?

5-Finally, I believe that as the "parrots" SEE more & more of the rest of us escaping to live more abundant lives, they'll catch the hint. Nobody really wants to be left behind in a hellhole. A life well-lived is the best & most convincing "argument"!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I have been thinking about the contract and some of the implications of it.

White society traditionally told black men they were boys and such they had no rights which anybody need respect.

The struggle for earlier generations of black men was to claim their manhood as patriarchs in their communities. Civil rights were represented by protecting the rights of all black people.

The contract's ideology lost its way when it acted as though the problems of the community were indicated by the problems of black men exclusively, not the problems of black men, women and children as a collective.

In today's world, the contract's ideology encourages black men to see themselves as men, but it encourages behavior that makes them appear more like boys: they are not responsible for themselves (and the community), for undertaking leadership; they are perpetual victims, etc., etc.

DeStouet said...

elg,

I'd like to focus on this:

"Also, why do so many black women have babies out of wedlock by men who don't want them for ANYTHING except sex? In fact, why do so many black women have sex with men who don't want them for ANYTHING except sex UNLESS that's all they want from the man?"

There are a few answers to this.

1. Many black women have a mother but no father figure in the home so when she herself begins to date, she has know idea how to vet and spot a "jerk." (That is why having a man in the home who contributes emotionally to his daughters well-being is so crucial)

2. Her mother, aunts and other women in her immediate circle have probably only had children by men who wanted nothing but sex from them.

3.That is NOT how most of these relationships started out.

I know of too many guys who have walked out after being in relationship with a woman for a year or two or more...never to come back. Many times it was a committed relationship these men walked away from. (We are not talking about women from the underclass)but women who are hard working "mules." Women with two or three different jobs, who go to church and tithe. Women who sweep their front stoop and try to keep their neighborhoods looking decent, ya know?

When I lived in SIL (Supervised Independent Living) I lived in a working class neighborhood. Most of my girlfriends in that neighborhood were either going to school to become beauticians or nurse assistants. And many of them came from two parent homes BUT I noticed that most of their mothers were mules. They carried their homes on their backs.

A few of my girlfriend's & their mothers KNEW of their fathers having a whole other family on the side (literally around the corner and down the block) even though he lived in the house with them. I remember two examples of this.

Or the father worked, but were also drunks. Some of my girlfriends had fathers who only communicated with then when he was cursing them out. That's all. There were no father-daughter talks. There were no father-daughter dates to the movie theater & fancy restaurants. The only time he spoke to them (or us for that matter because I was also on the receiving end of the tongue lashing many times just for walking into the house) was when he was cursing. No hugs or early morning kisses. These things just didn't exists.

So, when they started dating and having sex with men they were ignorant as to watch out for in a man. How can you know what to look out for when you haven't been educated by either parent?

Khadija said...

Pioneer Valley Woman,

You've made a good point about the implications of the contract. I've been wondering what exactly was our foremothers' understanding of the contract? This is another point where the lack of documentation of a wide range of BW's historical voices is disappointing.

We more or less know what our male civil rights leaders were saying about the contract. I would like to know what a cross-section of BW were saying about the contract. It's significant that the civil rights contract pre-dates "official" feminist thought.

This is one of the better things about the internet. A cross-section of BW's voices and thoughts about our issues are being preserved. I just wish there were more journals or diaries from our foremothers. I'd really like to read the thoughts & experiences of BW who founded Black towns with Benjamin "Pap" Singleton & the Exodusters. {long sigh}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Hey Khadija,

It is not impossible to find black women's ideas on "the contract" of earlier years, before and during the civil rights movement.

I can think of several sources: Words of Fire, edited by Beverly Guy-Sheftall and Darlene Clark Hine's work on black women's history:

http://www.history.northwestern.edu/faculty/hine.htm.

See also, Too Heavy a Load: Black Women in Defense of Themselves by Deborah Gray White.

Nell Irvin Painter has written about the Exodusters and has also written books on black women's history. Also, Dorothy Sterling, We are your Sisters: Black Women in the 19th century.

The WPA during the Depression did interviews with former slaves: WPA Slave Narratives. Included was testimony of black women and their memories of slavery.

Khadija said...

Pioneer Valley Woman,

Thanks for the references! [Ya gotta love academics---they know good stuff!]

Peace and blessings.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

You're welcome!

Here is another person to look into, Wilma King. She has done work with Darlene Clark Hine:

http://history.missouri.edu/people/king.html

elg said...

Khadijah: I agree that black women should remove themselves from the "toxic" black male/female relationship pool. But all is not as rosy on the other side as it may appear (as you have noted). Keep in mind that there is a "quality man" shortage among whites as well. For example, there are more white females attending college than white males although the white male/female dichotomy on the nations's college campuses is not as bad as among blacks. YET. The last sex ratio figures I saw are like 53% (female) to 47% (male) AND RISING IN FAVOR OF FEMALES.

In other words, in 10, 20 years (if not sooner) white women will be complaining about not being able to find quality white men (like black women complaining now about black men). Some colleges are trying to deal with this growing problem by admitting some men on an "affirmative action" basis (you may have read about this several years ago). They are doing this so that there will be an equal number of men and women on college campuses. College officials are trying to head off a future SOCIAL problem between white men and white women similar to what exists between black men and black women today. This is controversial, needless to say with some feminists saying that more qualified women are being passed over for less qualified men. I'm just saying that there is a quality man shortage almost everywhere (I'm not sure about Asians) and the problem is growing.
Speaking of Asians, there seems to be a "woman shortage" among some Asian groups. Yes, with so many Asian women in America marrying/dating white men, straight Asian man are said to be lonely for female companionship! How about black WOMEN and Asian MEN hooking up?

Khadijah & destouset: Khadijah has been dead-on about many black men who obsessively blame the bad old white man for their destructive patterns and behaviors. I hope black women do not fall into a similar mindset of blaming the poor choices some of them make on the bad old black man. Adults of both sexes must take responsiblity for their actions. Back in the day (more than 50 years ago), my mother would never have ended up with an out of wedlock baby because she was NEVER going to have sex with my father (or ANY man) UNTIL AFTER THEY WERE MARRIED. And most black women were like my mother back then. But the times have changed, haven't they? Waiting until you are married to have sex is a joke nowadays and has been for at least several decades.

But check out the Asian man angle. I never used to think they were cute but I've been looking at some of them lately and SOME OF THEM ARE HOT!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeStouet said...

Elg,

Please tell me how marriage is the key?

I'm speaking for myself and most other women that I know of, many of us started having sex in our teens. 17,18,19... I started having sex even earlier and had my first child when I was 16 years old. My sister was pregnant at 12 and had her first and only child when she was thirteen.

I honestly do not know any woman who waited until they were married before having sex. In my husband's family, I don't even know any of them (women) who waited until they were in college before having sex. However, they were much more careful and protected when engaging in intercourse which was the key for them. All of them (except one) were married with college degrees before starting their family.

Is that realistic?

I'm even willing to bet money that most of the women who are advocating IRR didn't wait until they were married before having sex. I'm sure they have had their fair share of sexual partners.

I think you would have a valid point if you said wait until you are married before having any children.

One last thing, there were many dead beat husbands in your mother's day. While there were many men who were great father's & providers for their families, that is about the time when the boys started to separate themselves from the men.

Khadija said...

Everyone:

Let me repeat the statement above in the comments policy: "This blog seeks to foster a courteous, reasoned exchange of ideas." Also, I have a duty to all of you (who I consider to be valued guests).

The policy means that I won't publish posts that hurl insults or engage in name-calling with other guests. Regrettably, this means that I recently had to delete a comment that I made a mistake in publishing.

It was an error in judgment on my part to publish it in the first place. ELG, please accept my sincere apology. I also apologize to every audience member who saw the comment (for the few minutes it was up). I will exercise more care in the future.

I consider this a "teachable moment." How we handle disagreement is important. Not having any protocol in place to handle dissent & disagreements helped the FBI destroy many, many Black organizations in the 1960s. We should all keep in mind that politics + personality differences = heated discussions.

So, I would suggest the following:

1-When engaging with someone you disagree with, dissect the statement, NOT the person. I let myself say some intemperate things here in my own house, but I felt that it was important while addressing Jeannie that I try to speak to her with courtesy. Point out what's flawed with the statement, not the person.

2-Keep in mind that there are multiple potential reasons for disagreement (other than sabotage). Not everyone who disagrees is a saboteur. That's why I described a combination of behaviors for the saboteur checklist. For me, it takes more than one of the described behaviors before I come to that conclusion.

3-Have the patience to watch for combinations & patterns before jumping to the saboteur conclusion. A real saboteur can't help herself. She'll manifest several of the behaviors listed. She'll also feel compelled to hang around in places where she disagrees with the very premise of the forum or discussion.

I've seen this behavior called "trolling." Believe me, once I see a pattern of "trolling," the troll's comments won't get published.

Disagreement on one point doesn't automatically equal disagreement with the very premise of the conversation. Black activists from the 1960s were constantly falling out with each other over the 5% of ideas that they disagreed on. The FBI took great comfort in this behavior.

That is, unless the one point somebody disagrees with IS the point of the discussion/forum. For example, somebody who feels that BW & girls don't deserve anything or any life better than what they currently have, has NO productive reason for hanging out here.

By all means, let's continue to engage with, AND sometimes disagree with, each other. Let's also be more savvy in our interactions than our predecessors from the 1960s!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymous said...

Well, I will take it that it was my comment that was deleted. This is your blog and you can do as you see fit. I take back nothing that I said. With that said, I will leave you all in peace.

Signed
Stealthkitty

Khadija said...

ELG,

A few thoughts in response to your most recent comment:

You talked about how back in the day, most Black women didn't have sex until after marriage. I don't know if that's true. Or to what extent. What I do know is that back in the day, Black men imposed shotgun marriages upon other Black men who impregnated their female relatives.

Back in the day, Black men held other Black men responsible for their behavior toward the women in their families.

Second, I find it curious that you seem really invested in claiming that there's a "quality man" shortage among Whites as well. It's quite telling that you have to make projections 10 or 20 years into the future for the situation among Whites to be anywhere near as messed up as among Black folks.

Having to speculate over a decade into the future to support what seems to be your main point ("the masses of White men will soon be just as lacking as many Black men are") is a strong indication that your point is not accurate.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it also sounds like there's a strong "anybody but White men as husbands" undercurrent in your recent comment. I hear this sentiment a lot.

However, I'm focused on practical matters. There are more White men than non-White men in this country. Just on numbers, eliminating Whites seriously reduces the pool of potential husbands. How is it in Black women's interests to do this? It's not.

Second, steering Black women exclusively towards non-White men ignores the fact that other men of color are often as "color-struck" as Black men. What I've observed with non-racist White men is that once a woman is in the "Black" category she is equally as "Black" as other Black women. Non-racist White men generally aren't looking at Black women with the same color-struck eyes of many Black, Latino, and Asian men.

This is another reason why it's not in Black women's interests to restrict themselves to non-Black men as potential husbands.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

foreverloyal said...

It really isn't unrealistic to take a "wait until marriage" approach. I have never so much as locked lips with a man who is not Mr. Foreverloyal.
I attribute this to not just morality, but understanding the practical implications of such a choice: Possible pregnancy and itchy rashes in uncomfortable places, yes. But also the emotional attachment that can come, and the deep wounds that could come if I was betrayed.
I am too sensitive for all of that.
And yes, I went to school and got my Bachelor's before getting married.

Khadija said...

Forever Loyal,

I didn't realize this until someone pointed it out to me, but: Yes, it IS a huge risk to take a "wait until marriage" approach. What if the woman involved NEVER gets married?

Let's think about the current situation for BW. Are you willing to encourage (or condemn) roughly 70% of BW to NEVER experiencing physical intimacy?

A woman pointed out to me the issues faced by, as she called them, "mature virgins." None of this had ever occurred to me. I spent my college years scheming about how to have sex without developing "a reputation." I'm happy I did that.

I can't imagine the insecurities involved in being a mature virgin in this culture. I also can't imagine the issues involved in trying to navigate sexuality for the first time as a middle-aged woman.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

foreverloyal said...

I don't pretend to be able to give advice from a position of having "been there" on this particular subject.

I will say that many of these women seem no better off, as they are being intimate with men that are not good enough for marriage and that has brought them a whole 'nother set of problems.

foreverloyal said...

I just wanted to add that I was mainly responding to the idea that it is unrealistic, if not downright impossible, to not have physical intimacy outside of marriage.
I encounter that sentiment all the time and it gets annoying after awhile.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Forever Loyal!

I agree that it is preferable to wait until marriage. I just feel that we need to think through the risks and price tags attached to each available option. This way, people are making informed choices.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

Forever Loyal,

Until my daughter reached the age of 10, I was adamant about her waiting until she got married before having intercourse. I would like her to wait because there does come a time (if you meet your "soul mate") that a woman will wish her husband was the only man she had ever laid with.

However, I personally believe (after watching my daughter these last few years) that young boys and girls are physically ready --meaning their hormones are popping and raving. And without someone there to help you create an outlet and keep your mind and body occupied/focused on something else, you are more than likely going to give in to those feelings.

The thing about sex that many people do not openly admit to is that it is natural to engage in.

As a young woman I had sex because when a guy kissed my neck or felt my breast it caused a sensation all throughout my body. I know there are many girls who engage in this act just because, but more often than not, it feels good.

When I asked was it realistic, I was referring to biologically. My daughter will be thirteen this Nov. and she has already shared with me a story of how a boy walked passed her to go to the water fountain and she felt tingly all over. (Don't worry, she plays the cello and is on her school's cross country track team. I'm trying to keep her mind OCCUPIED).

But it is something that I have thought about.

I also must admit my time in Germany plays a large part in my beliefs. Europeans view teen sex totally different than we do here in America. I won't go into too many details, but would suggest those who are interested to look it up yourself especially if you are raising children. It helps.

I know I was rambling but when I asked if it was realistic I meant for all people to really wait until they were married, because in many ways that goes against our "good" hormones.

foreverloyal said...

Physical intimacy IS natural and of course is pleasurable.

I think that if you are going to postpone it until marriage it is very advisable to get married fairly young.

If my children are ready for marriage around 18 or so, I would not stand in their way but would insha'allah help them find a good husband/wife and help them still go to college, etc.

DeStouet said...

"If my children are ready for marriage around 18 or so, I would not stand in their way but would insha'allah help them find a good husband/wife and help them still go to college, etc."

I've told my daughter the same thing. My husband and I got married when I was 19 and are going STROOOONG with the grace of God.

I would most defiantly take this route when/if that time comes.