Wednesday, September 9, 2009

Let's Get Serious About Vetting Men, Part 3: Screen OUT Men Who Say That Women Won't "Let" Them Be Men, Gentlemen, Etc.

This essay is contained in my new book. I'm delighted to announce that The Sojourner's Passport site has launched! You can visit it at http://www.sojournerspassport.com/.

Everyone, I can't thank you enough for your ongoing encouragement and support; I truly appreciate it. Your support is what made this possible. And here's a special shout-out to my web designers at Educo Web Design. They're nice people to deal with, and they do outstanding work!

Peace and blessings,
Khadija Nassif

57 comments:

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Greetings, Khadija!

The funny part is that some men like these can tend to overcompensate in that they have already weakened themselves with their mindset, so they become hyper-vigilant at asserting their manhood because they need the "trappings" to shore up themselves...

"She won't let me be a man, so I have to fight with her to prove my manhood..."

"I have to constantly fight to prove my manhood, so I'll draw upon every single sexist argument and cultural reference to build me up..."

"I'll claim that historical institutions that have long since been buried are the cause of my powerlessness," even though as a good number of us know, the earlier generations of men who experienced those very historical institutions did not see themselves as powerless, but worked towards becoming powerful.

Society won't let him be a man because he can't fulfill the traditional norms of manhood, ie., as provider and protector, so he will prove he really is a man by engaging in dysfunctional masculine behavior of whatever type--violence, extreme promiscuity, misogyny, abuse of women, fighting with women, etc.
By beating up on women, he proves that even though he can't be fully like those other men above him, he can be similar to them in that he is above women.

Khadija said...

Greetings, PioneerValleyWoman!

There are several intersecting crazy things about this particular syndrome.

It's yet another example of how mass fatherlessness has distorted many AAs' perceptions of what's normal. Normal, functional, EFFECTIVE men DON'T run around whining about what other folks won't "let" them do. That particular, tell-tale phrase of "They (whoever, whatever) won't 'LET' me do ___________." isn't even in a normal man's vocabulary!

When reviewing my memories of every functional, effective man I've known, I've NEVER heard any of these men say things like that. That's why those sorts of statements sound so crazy to me coming from a man.

I've NEVER heard my Dad, uncles, (functional) male cousins, exes, (functional) male colleagues, male friends say anything like that. Now, what normal men will say are things like, "So & So/They/Whoever/Whatever don't 'WANT' me to do ________. But I got around that by doing __________./But I'm going to get around that by doing __________."

Women who have spent their entire lives surrounded by fatherless, weak-minded males often don't know this. My Dad, uncles, exes, male friends, etc. LAUGH at other men who talk that "they won't let me ________" talk. They laugh at them and scornfully call them punks and "busters." [If you don't know, look it up in an online urban dictionary. LOL!]

It's also another example of how deficits are not equal in terms of how they play out between the genders. Personally, I don't like to hear powerless, weak-minded talk coming from anybody, including women. I wasn't raised to have a powerless mindset, so I don't react favorably to it.

Now, this does NOT mean that I engage in, or favor, "Superwoman" talk. Just because you know you CAN do something doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it, or that you should go around announcing that you CAN do something. More AA women need to learn to stop telling/announcing everything, and to use silence about certain matters as a strategy. I'm just explaining why I don't encourage "pity parties" for anybody.

However, if there's going to be an outward display of a degree of powerlessness, the "(Powerless) Damsel in Distress" plays MUCH better than "(Powerless) Male in Distress."

It's perfectly acceptable and within NORMAL gender roles for a woman to allow a man to protect and provide for her, and to "rescue" her. It's NOT acceptable or normal for a man to look for women to rescue him or prop up his faltering manhood, etc.

The idea of "fighting with women to prove their manhood" is yet another crazy thing that normal, effective men never do. They don't have to fight with anybody over their manhood because their manhood comes from WITHIN and is demonstrated by their own actions and accomplishments.

As you noted, when males are FAILURES at performing the normal responsibilities of manhood (being effective protectors and providers for the women and children within their individual orbit) that's when they start talking this "they won't 'let' me be a man" crazy talk; and engaging in dysfunctional fake-masculine behaviors (violence, extreme promiscuity, misogyny, abuse of women, fighting with women, etc.).

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Enigma said...

When I hear that kind of talk from men I usually abandon the convo. When I hear that some women do not like men telling them to do things, I am well aware that this man has never really dealt with a grown woman in his life because he does not choose mates wisely which means he may NOT have the ability to treat me correctly - I also am made aware at that time that this gentleman knows nothing about building trust and thinks that women should behave like lemmings when men are around. I know when I hear these sort of statements that this man is NOT a leader and excuses for not leading will be used very liberally. Some men liberally use intimdation to lead, I call it chest beating, and think that leading women is done effectively using this tactic. He too is a man that I dismiss quickly. Intimidation "leadership" often leads to mental, emotional and physical abuse. In essence, they are playing at being a man because they do not know how to just BE a man.

Men either know their role, know how to lead, have decided to do so, are learning how to, or they do not. You cannot fix this kind of man, you can only leave him alone to figure it out for himself.

I refuse to engage men who do not know their role in the world and who begs for scraps when they are standing at a buffet table. It shows a lack of self-control, direction, incentive etc.

Ladies, leave this kind of man alone!!

Evia said...

Another variation of this is when AA males--and I've only heard and heard of AA males saying this--"She's trying to take my MANHHOOD."

I've considered men with that mindset to be threatening to women because they're physically stronger than most women and you never know what you might say that will make him feel that you're not "letting" him be a man or that he will construe to mean that you're trying to "take his manhood." This is the kind of stuff that gets a lot of AA women beaten and killed and the women probably didn't have a clue that he would interpret it that way.

Yet when the bw responds in order to be better understood or fights back in self defense, she's smeared as being loud-mouthed, violent, or disrespectful. I'll bet that if we were to investigate this, many bw have been beaten to death or otherwise killed simply because a bm felt she was disrespecting him. That would be a valuable documentary, in itself, to find out and show the role played by this issue of "letting" him be a man, or "taking his manhood" in the domestic violence perpetrated against bw by bm.

What woman with any self esteem wants to be tiptoeing around a man and scared to state her opinions?

Let's just be real. If AA men have found populations of women (as they keep claiming they have) who'll deal with their "manhood" and "let" them be men, AA women need to help them to pack and help them out the door.

Of course, many AA women can't see it now, but this is a win-win situation for them because it will FORCE the smarter ones of them to look at and scrutinize other men as mates. OR they'll just be alone and being alone is a MUCH better life than being worn down and having your body and spirit crushed by a piece o' man.

This is why I'm saying these days that bw must MOVE ON! Stop pining and grieving. Just MOVE ON!

Also from another angle, I've witnessed up close where a bw did not have respect for a bm because she was ambitious whereas he was just a trifling man. He could not earn her respect. He was a "nice" guy but so trifling. I advised both of them to just MOVE ON away from each other, which they eventually did, but not before they were both damaged from the relationship and lost the prime years of their lives.

Why go through all of this when--if you vet carefully--you can substantially increase the probability of choosing well or at least you won't end up damaged.

Khadija said...

Enigma,

You said, "When I hear that kind of talk from men I usually abandon the convo."

Me too. I do an immediate "exit stage right" when I hear that type of weak-minded talk. Also, as you noted, normal, EFFECTIVE men don't do the "chest-beating" that you mentioned. That chest-beating is another warning signal for women to STAY AWAY from that particular man.

You said, "Men either know their role, know how to lead, have decided to do so, are learning how to, or they do not. You cannot fix this kind of man, you can only leave him alone to figure it out for himself.

I refuse to engage men who do not know their role in the world and who begs for scraps when they are standing at a buffet table. It shows a lack of self-control, direction, incentive etc.

Ladies, leave this kind of man alone!!"
(emphasis added)

Preach!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Evia,

Thanks for highlighting the physical danger angle. That's yet another reason for women to STAY AWAY from men who are talking this particular type of weak-minded talk.

It's interesting how to see how widespread or rare these various deficits are within different demographics. For the most part, the only type of WM that one will hear publicly talking this form of madness are the deranged type who will shoot large groups of women in a gym. This type of crazy talk is generally not acceptable within that particular demographic.

As I noted before, this type of crazy talk from men is generally NOT acceptable within the "old-school" AA male demographic. They tend to ridicule other males who say things like that around them.

You said, "Why go through all of this when--if you vet carefully--you can substantially increase the probability of choosing well or at least you won't end up damaged."

That's the whole point of vetting men---to screen OUT men who are mostly likely to create problems for a woman and her future children. And to screen IN men who are most likely to be effective protectors and providers for a woman and her children.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Enigma:

When I hear that kind of talk from men I usually abandon the convo. When I hear that some women do not like men telling them to do things, I am well aware that this man has never really dealt with a grown woman in his life because he does not choose mates wisely which means he may NOT have the ability to treat me correctly - I also am made aware at that time that this gentleman knows nothing about building trust and thinks that women should behave like lemmings when men are around. I know when I hear these sort of statements that this man is NOT a leader and excuses for not leading will be used very liberally. Some men liberally use intimdation to lead, I call it chest beating, and think that leading women is done effectively using this tactic. He too is a man that I dismiss quickly. Intimidation "leadership" often leads to mental, emotional and physical abuse. In essence, they are playing at being a man because they do not know how to just BE a man.

My reply:

This is it in a nutshell, for example, the way these characters love to use that old "submit, woman, submit" language, that just because they are men, they are omniscient and women should just meekly follow.

They can't negotiate a relationship with a grown woman. It isn't even a matter sometimes of the men choosing wisely. Perhaps they did choose wisely and married grown women, but they can't respect them as grown women and recognize the women's strengths, because they are too much into their egos...

Felicia said...

Provers 23:7

"For as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

Words to live by.

Any man who claims a woman won't let him be a man on a deep subconscious level feels powerless. Weak, and conquered by life.

These negative feelings can lead to anger and rage, which is therefor a recipe for DISASTER for any woman who enters the equation who is perceived as being more capable, responsible, bright, and therefor more powerful than these weak (and often fearful) men.

BW need to stay clear of these scared and potentially dangerous, man boys.

There are TOO many other emotionally secure and confident fish in the sea.

foreverloyal said...

Well between you and Evia I no longer need to complete a couple of posts I have sitting in my "draft" folder.

Well said.

BTW I listened to those "emergency preparedness" podcasts, and encourage everyone to do so.

LaJane Galt said...

You are on it this week.

A DBR non-Black man dropped the old "you won't let a man be a man" on me and I threw my head back and laughed dead in his face.

My question to him, "LET? Why is your manhood contingent on my 'permission'?"

Chi said...

I am a frequent reader of your blog, and all I have to say about this post is PREACH PREACH PREACH! I just returned this past weekend from a trip down South where a 40-year old brother at a BBQ was lamenting this very "women won't let me be a man" thing, practically verbatim, as the reason he had no desire to commit to a woman down there. He claimed that his single-dom actually helps him to "service many poor lonely and unhappily married sistas down there at the same time", as if to imply that this is indicative of so-called manly behavior. So sad, yet disturbing.

You and your women empowerment contemporaries please keep doing your important work. I will continue to read faithfully and be enlightened. Thank you.

Nwa'ndo said...

Khadija:

I have read these conversations without saying anything, primarily because I could not have presented the information provided in the discussions any better or contributed anything more. Thank you SO much for taking the time to address the various issues you've been addressing over the last several months. It is a labor of love and I thank you for your willingness to address these issues.

This issue of vetting men is EXTREMELY important because of the impact on not just women but the children. Unfortunately, it is a topic that is rarely talked about in a constructive manner because of the reasons you and the other ladies have highlighted.

As I have pondered on this subject of vetting men carefully, it dawned on me that the warnings to AA women being sounded by you, Evia, Sara, Halima, ActsofFaith, CW and others are very similar to warnings issued to women in domestic abuse situations. Generally, in domestic abuse situations, the abuser usually starts with verbal abuse and other kinds of non-physical abuse. The abuse is escalated to physical abuse if the woman shows signs of "revolt" or as a way to show complete "domination" over the woman. While people on the outside may notice the abuse and may sound many warnings to the abused woman, the abused woman cannot be saved until SHE is ready to make a change.

Likewise, with the warnings you're sounding on your blog, the women to whom the advice is intended cannot be saved unless each woman is willing to start taking the difficult but necessary steps to extract themselves from the harmful mindsets under which the poor decisions about men are made.

As I have read the discussions, I realize that I have to continually work on myself to make sure that I avoid the traps addressed in these discussions and to spread the word to my sister-friends and their friends. Hopefully, as the word spreads, more AA women will be able to save themselves before it is too late.

I apologize if this comment is off-topic but I just wanted to share some thoughts with you and the other participants in the conversations.

CW said...

Let's give this some serious thought...We are all adults here...Our parents didn't even allow us as children to use the "Other People" partyline as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility... Why are we (well some of us)giving this type of nonsense any legitimacy at 25-30+ years of age?

Khadija said...

Felicia,

You said, "There are TOO many other emotionally secure and confident fish in the sea."

That's the thing. All of this suffering that AA women and their children (majority bastard child rate, majority single rate---at percentages that are unheard of within other demographics) are going through is totally unnecessary. There is a global village of loving, lovable, QUALITY men (including non-AA BM) who are fit, willing and able to be good husbands and fathers.

What has so many AA women desperate and suffering is their fixation on "nuthin' but a (AA) BM." These women AND their children suffer because they limit themselves to an ever-dwindling, increasingly radioactive pool of AA males. This, and the suffering that this fixation causes, is totally unnecessary.
____________________

ForeverLoyal,

Thank you for your kind words about the post; I truly appreciate it.
_____________________

LaJane Galt,

Thank you for your kind words; I truly appreciate it. I would urge you NOT to laugh at (or otherwise engage) these sorts of nuts---many of them are predisposed to violence against women. I would urge you to just walk away from them.
_______________________

Chi,

You're welcome! Thank you for your kind words about the blog; I truly appreciate it.

What you described of the nut you encountered at the BBQ leads to another point that I'll get to in a separate comment.
_____________________

Nwa'ndo,

You're welcome! Thank you for your kind words about the blog; I truly appreciate it.

You said, "This issue of vetting men is EXTREMELY important because of the impact on not just women but the children. Unfortunately, it is a topic that is rarely talked about in a constructive manner because of the reasons you and the other ladies have highlighted."

I've been distressed to see how FAR out of touch with BASIC, HUMAN NORMS the AA collective has gotten. So many of us don't even understand basic ideas like screening out convicts and playboys from our romantic lives. A lot of AA women don't comprehend the concept of having standards at all.

And most of them are afraid to apply BASIC, HUMAN standards to men because they're fixated on only dating from within the ever-dwindling, increasingly radioactive pool of only AA men. That's how we've ended up with the DREADFUL scenarios that various younger women described during our recent conversations about college dating and emerging trends (HIV & AIDS) at historically Black colleges.

I recently realized that many of us are telling younger AA women that they need to screen and vet men, without giving concrete examples of what sort of individuals to screen OUT in order to protect their unborn children. Unfortunately, there aren't many sources for this type of information.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

***Audience Reminder***

NO anonymous comments will be published for this conversation. When you sign in as "Anonymous," you're still anonymous.

Khadija said...

Ladies,

Let me point out some other things that I’ve observed---especially when it comes to online discussions about these sorts of topics. In general, AA women enter interactions with AA men assuming that they are generally our allies and protectors. Then we are shocked and hurt when we discover that this assumption is often not valid.

Many of us spend a lot of time and energy analyzing their various viewpoints and attempting to dialogue with them. It’s time to walk away from that pattern. It’s time to catch the hint that the majority of AA men are NOT our friends, allies, or protectors. If they were our allies and protectors, then the AA collective would not be in the condition that it's in. Catch the hint and MOVE ON.

It's quite obvious from their behavior that the vast majority of AA men DON'T care about the so-called Black family, Black marriage, Black love, or the fate of the majority of AA children who are born OOW.

AA men aren't deaf-mutes. When they care about a situation, they know how to speak out. And they speak out about the things that they ACTUALLY care about: Skip Gates, Michael Vick, the Jena 6, etc. If they're not saying anything about an issue, it's because it's not bothering them.

Sisters, be aware: One underlying reason why most AA men aren’t concerned about your marriage prospects is because many of them want to keep AA women around as a surplus “Booty Call” population. If you are happily married, then you’re not available to be used and taken advantage of. That’s why you will generally only hear yelps of professed “concern” about the marriage situation when AA women start talking about considering non-Black and non-AA men as potential husbands.

Many of these same "suddenly-'concerned'-about Black love" men are silent while their brethren publicly stomp on AA women's spirits. They say and do nothing when creatures like Yung Berg ("I don't date dark butts"), Ne-Yo ("all the prettiest kids are light-skinned"), etc. denigrate AA women in public. IGNORE THEM when they try to browbeat you into limiting yourself to AA men---meanwhile these men are silent when their fellow AA men date and marry out. IGNORE THEM.

The majority of AA men LIKE things the way they are! That's why they're so silent about all of this. That's why they DON'T want you to start using BASIC, HUMAN NORMS to evaluate men. They like having a surplus population of single, desperate AA women to exploit. They like it like that! You need to get that through your head; and stop listening to these men as if they really cared about the currently non-existent Black family.

Those handful of AA men who are sincerely concerned about the futures of their sisters, cousins, daughters, etc. will support AA women's efforts at leading healthy, fulfilling & wholesome lives.

If AA women want to live in a way that's comparable to the way every other ethnic group of women are living (with a majority of their children born within marriage, with reasonable opportunities for marriage, actually being protected and provided for, etc.), then AA women need to start using the SAME, UNIVERSAL standards that all other ethnic groups of women use to screen men. And AA women are going to have to expand their dating pool to include non-Black and non-AA men. It's that simple.

Let’s MOVE ON and move forward.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

Thank you Khadija for another great post. I greatly appreciate the examples you are providing along with the facts and research. I know that takes a lot of work. I can't tell you how helpful this is. I have been sharing and discussing this with many women around me.



This indoctrination is one of the rare ones that I actually rejected out of hand. Everytime I heard this it never made sense to me. I thought they were kidding bc I looked at what my male ancestors went through compared to the BM of today. So I kept it moving on this one.


The bulk of my exposure to this though came via television and radio. This is one of those widely broadcast topics that BM love to browbeat BW with. M. Baisden (when I listened) used to have shows on this all the time, Rev. Al had a TV show where they discussed this, there is a sportscaster who I have seen on MSNBC with Toure' who was landblasting some BW with this on some TV show some years ago.


The thing that made me really cringe was the response of the BW callers, panelists, and audience members. This would start the "olympics" where BW would compete to brag about how submissive they could be, how domestic they are, plus how much they "brought to the table materially" to prop up a guys manhood, how sexually adventurous they were etc..


Then typically these women would turn and whip other BW who they felt weren't participating in the olympics. Telling them "we" need to know when to shut up/keep our opinions to ourselves, step down and "let" the man lead etc...


"Submit" seems to be thrown around a lot in these type of conversations. The woman is supposed to "submit" in order to "let" the man be a man, which I didn't understand either as these people were unmarried. They weren't even talking about "submission" in a religious/marriage context. A woman is just supposed to submit to some random man she is dating/sexing/shacking with.


This was one of those topics that made me want to embrace my inner cat lady bc all I kept hearing in translation from these women was: "I am contorting myself, making myself small, insignificant, and pliable so I can more easily be used."

I Want A Jon Hamm said...

Ok- this is my first post here so bear with me:

Im going to take topic of part 1 and 2 and flip it just a little bit to my own perspective. Now- my biological father was a total DBR. Now he is more like a person with DBR tendencies. My mother is a great woman- but she grew up in to the old fashioned traditions where it was to get married when you were young and then have kids with a man could provide. My dad definitely met those requirements when he met my mom but I can safely say that was pretty much the vetting process for her.

My older sister and I denied those traditions and pretty much identified with the quintessential modern woman where the emphasis was finding a good man period and having a sustainable life on our own- marriage not necessarily the immediate goal, but sometime in the future.

I worked at a grassroots organization in HS where I met my mentor. He is pretty much the typical white, preppy, Ivy Leaguer, and political junky who is hella smart in his forties. He is still my mentor now, but in addition to that he is a great friend and even turned into somewhat a father figure for me (my parents divorced maybe a decade ago and my father came back into my life about 2-3 yrs ago). I bring this up to say that if I had to choose between using the standards of my father and my mentor to find my future husband I would use my mentor by a long shot.

Those standards would be:
*security (emotionally, mentally, and financially)
*loves seeing himself getting the "best dad in the world" mug from his kids
*Professional career (even though I'm just a college student, I know I will be part of the professional field so I expect my partner to be in a similar field)
*He actually listens and engages in conversations with me (my mentor and I could talk for hours even though we come from different backgrounds and generations. I kind of hate when male comedians make fun of this too much because communication is actually important)
*Even though there all kinds of beautiful women in the world, I would ALWAYS be the apple of his eye (my mentor look at his wife like its love at first sight and they hold hands at every opportunity-it is so cute lol)
*Strong believer in marriage
*Even there are more, I'll add one more which is things get done- no questions asked. I don't EVER have to play the husband role.

My comment is more related Khadija's recent posts but I really wanted to put my thoughts out there on this particular post since it is the most recent (please pardon Khadija- didn't mean to go on a tangent).

Getting to this topic- any man that exudes any of these qualities will not make excuses- if they do make mistakes it will be fixed without me even pointing is out.

I kind of rushed writing this, so if some clarification is needed- just let me know!

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Felicia:

These negative feelings can lead to anger and rage, which is therefor a recipe for DISASTER for any woman who enters the equation who is perceived as being more capable, responsible, bright, and therefor more powerful than these weak (and often fearful) men.

My reply:

If anything, capable women are their primary targets: highly educated, accomplished and with high earning potential.

Their existence is seen as an affront, because in their twisted minds, these women somehow stopped them from themselves becoming highly educated, accomplished and with high earning potential.

Moreover, these women are the ones they see as too independent minded and who won't (submit) and let them be "men".

Of course, they will have a million and one excuses for how these women became that way: "the white man always gave them a break" in that they always had it "easier" under slavery and since then. These women's education (and exposure to feminism--the usual culprit) made them too uppity, etc.

They focus on the women who proved themselves to be capable of negotiating a racist (and sexist) society, and while they might talk about the racist society that they believe holds them back, they are not talking about solutions and strategies in engaging with the society to get what they want. They only want to blame women who had nothing whatsoever to do with their predicament.

Khadija said...

CW,

You said, "Let's give this some serious thought...We are all adults here...Our parents didn't even allow us as children to use the "Other People" partyline as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility... Why are we (well some of us)giving this type of nonsense any legitimacy at 25-30+ years of age?"

This is another concerning angle to this topic---Why are grown women listening to other biological adults say nonsensical things? And especially nonsensical things that are intended as justifications for their OWN mistreatment?
_______________________

Aphrodite,

You're welcome! Thank you for your kind words about the post; I truly appreciate it.

Thanks for the compliment, but this didn't take that much effort or research for me. Which leads me to some other questions that flow from CW's comment: Why are grown women listening to other biological adults say nonsensical things? And especially nonsensical things that are intended as justifications for their OWN mistreatment? And why are educated women listening to such?

It doesn't take that much effort or research for me to write this particular post because I was blessed to have a solid liberal arts education during college. That's another reason why I don't understand why so many formally educated AAs entertain this type of nonsense.

Like I said in the post, AAs with "old-school" values are QUICK to spot and identify defective people. But even if a person wasn't blessed to have been raised with old-school values, anybody who's been through college should be able to recognize that this "they won't let me ___________" talk is mentally UNHEALTHY.

Anybody who sat through Psych 101 should be able to see that. And, with a bit of memory-jogging---to remember the term of art "self-efficacy," should be able to do a quick Google search on that term to find a psychometric test that measures that trait. This really shouldn't be that deep for an educated person...

Khadija said...

Part 2

What, if anything, are some of y'all learning in college?

Here's a bit from Wikipedia about "liberal arts" (with emphasis added):

"The term liberal arts denotes a curriculum that imparts general knowledge and develops the student’s rational thought and intellectual capabilities, unlike the professional, vocational, technical curricula emphasizing specialization.

The contemporary liberal arts comprise studying literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science. In classical antiquity, the liberal arts denoted the education proper to a free man (Latin: liber, “free”), unlike the education proper to a slave."

You said, "This is one of those widely broadcast topics that BM love to browbeat BW with. M. Baisden (when I listened) used to have shows on this all the time, Rev. Al had a TV show where they discussed this, there is a sportscaster who I have seen on MSNBC with Toure' who was landblasting some BW with this on some TV show some years ago."

Which gets back to an earlier point: Ladies, STOP listening to 99.999% of AA men!

You said, "The thing that made me really cringe was the response of the BW callers, panelists, and audience members. This would start the "olympics" where BW would compete to brag about how submissive they could be, how domestic they are, plus how much they "brought to the table materially" to prop up a guys manhood, how sexually adventurous they were etc..

Then typically these women would turn and whip other BW who they felt weren't participating in the olympics. Telling them "we" need to know when to shut up/keep our opinions to ourselves, step down and "let" the man lead etc... "


Ladies, STOP listening to 99.999% of AA women!

You said, "...I kept hearing in translation from these women was: "I am contorting myself, making myself small, insignificant, and pliable so I can more easily be used."

Yes, this is the TRUE message behind what these voluntary victims are saying.
________________________

I Want A Jon Hamm,

Welcome aboard! You said, "My older sister and I denied those traditions and pretty much identified with the quintessential modern woman where the emphasis was finding a good man period and having a sustainable life on our own- marriage not necessarily the immediate goal, but sometime in the future."

The modern AA problem is that the definition of "good man" has sunk so low in terms of AA men. Typically, a "good" AA man is defined as one who has a job of any sort and is currently not in jail. Period. [Also known as "BMW"---"Black Man Working"] This is crazy.

The other part of the problem is that mass fatherlessness has created generations of AAs who have NEVER seen the sort of behavior that your mentor displays toward his wife.

Since most AAs have completely lost any concept of common sense or ethical compass in these matters, AA women need to look to see what universal templates other women are using to screen men. That is, if we don't want to live (and don't want our future children to live) a Black underclass lifestyle of being TOTALLY un-protected and un-provided for.
______________________

PioneerValleyWoman,

Let's STOP investing time into analyzing inferior men. It's a waste of time, and part of the trickbag of focusing on them instead of focusing on our own interests and our future children's interests.

What they think doesn't matter.

How they think doesn't matter.

The original cause of their deficits doesn't matter.

None of that matters.

The only thing that DOES matter is that AA women learn how to sidestep inferior men and seek out quality men who will be effective husbands and fathers (for those women who want marriage and family life).

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:


PioneerValleyWoman,

Let's STOP investing time into analyzing inferior men. It's a waste of time, and part of the trickbag of focusing on them instead of focusing on our own interests and our future children's interests.


What, if anything, are some of y'all learning in college?

Here's a bit from Wikipedia about "liberal arts" (with emphasis added):

"The term liberal arts denotes a curriculum that imparts general knowledge and develops the student’s rational thought and intellectual capabilities, unlike the professional, vocational, technical curricula emphasizing specialization.


My reply:

This ties in with your admonition to stop assessing them, focusing on them and so forth, and it ties in with your discussion on education.

Unfortunately, in some forms of college curriculum, it is more about indoctrination than education in the classical sense, so not all people are engaging in the critical thinking they need. Instead, they are buying into the propaganda. I was merely speaking about the form of propaganda that many black women are being presented with, so they could beware, along with ignoring the arguments...

Is it a matter of people leaving their training at the door when they graduate or never using them to start off with?

As you said, it can take away from their true interests, and so it is important to know that their arguments make no sense and to know what they are trying to do so they can be avoided.

Felicia said...

PVW said...

"If anything, capable women are their primary targets: highly educated, accomplished and with high earning potential."

"Their existence is seen as an affront, because in their twisted minds, these women somehow stopped them from themselves becoming highly educated, accomplished and with high earning potential."

"Moreover, these women are the ones they see as too independent minded and who won't (submit) and let them be "men"."

"Of course, they will have a million and one excuses for how these women became that way: "the white man always gave them a break" in that they always had it "easier" under slavery and since then. These women's education (and exposure to feminism--the usual culprit) made them too uppity, etc."

"They focus on the women who proved themselves to be capable of negotiating a racist (and sexist) society, and while they might talk about the racist society that they believe holds them back, they are not talking about solutions and strategies in engaging with the society to get what they want. They only want to blame women who had nothing whatsoever to do with their predicament."


My reply...

RIGHT-O PioneerValleryWoman!

These suckers are INSANE IN THE MEMBRANE. And are in the rut they're in because of their OWN many inadequacies. Why in the heck would a woman "submit" to a male who is BENEATH her? Intellectually, socially, financially, you fill in the blank.

Like Evia said, these fools haven't "paid the cost to be the boss". Not by a LONG shot.

Secure normal men view women as EQUALS and therefor don't need women to "submit" to them in order for them to feel manly. Because secure, competent, intelligent, capable, and normal men already ARE men.

And are functioning highly as the men they already are.

Real manhood is either there or it isn't. It can't be "taken away". And if a man feels like it has been, it was NEVER there to begin with.

Real men behave like men. Meaning, they protect, and provide for their loved ones and community. They're wives and children. They set good examples for they young generation of boys who are looking up to them. They can be depended on. They also set an example - quality wise - for the type of man a young girl can dream of marrying one day.

THESE are the ONLY type of ACTUAL men, that upwardly mobile (and those striving to be upwardly mobile) un-indoctrinated BW interested in marriage and children born in wedlock should even be looking at. Speaking to. Thinking about.

MANY young black girls and women these day's don't even appear to have dreams. At least not the kind non black girls and women are having and realizing. Instead, they're having NIGHTMARES. Thanks in large part to a non existent "community" that is in SHAMBLES. A basically DEAD "community" these unfortunate souls STILL believe exists (because of brainwashing and conditioning) and that they must support alone.SMH

Since a growing majority of the "brothas" (BW need to RIP this terminology out their minds) have made it clear they're over and OUT.

I urge EVERY BW (and others who actually care about BW) to disseminate this LIFE SAVING information provided in these various BW empowerment blogs FAR AND WIDE. Word of mouth, word of mouth.

Sadly, the majority of BW are simply going to drown, BUT there IS a minority who WOULD do better if they knew better existed for BW and that THEY personally could access it.

Have a GREAT weekend ya'll and KEEP on keepin' on.

Nathifa said...

Another Great post Khadija. You said The only thing that DOES matter is that AA women learn how to sidestep inferior men and seek out quality men who will be effective husbands and fathers (for those women who want marriage and family life).
I agree completely. I just wanted to add that many times out inner voice or our body is telling us or warning us to stay away from danger or that something is wrong. When these men state these ludicrous statements if we listen to ourselves we would get the signal to stay away from this person. Do not engage with men who try to make you feel bad for their shortcomings.

Nwa'ndo said...

Khadija said: "Ladies, STOP listening to 99.999% of AA men!"

One variation of that statement is to stop getting caught up in what AA men (especially celebrities) are doing so long as it does not impact one's personal space or personal life. If one's space or life is actually being harmed, that's one thing but if it is just about noticing who the latest AA male celebrity is dating, who he refuses to date for whatever reason, or what AA women/BW can do to make it easier for AA men to date them, ignore the fools.

In fact, one thing I've started doing when talking to people and someone says "I can't believe [insert some BM celebrity] is dating [insert some non-BW/AA woman] is to ask the individual: "why do you care what XX is doing with his life? Shouldn't you be more concerned about living your own life to the fullest?" That usually stops the whining, which is what I call such "concern/hurt."

ActsofFaithBlog said...

The lack of functionality has become the norm and most don't even realize it. I think the average AA black woman has no idea what living without a certain amount of duress is like either for herself or her relatives. I don't think it's being appropriately attributed as duress either but a myriad of other things. I also think a lot of the focus is still on lack on money but that it's attributed to what whites do or don't do. There are these external obstacles but also the internal ones that have to be addressed before a change in mindset can really come to fruition.

Khadija said...

***Audience Note*** I'm NOT going to publish any more comments that analyze these types of inferior men. These types of men are IRRELEVANT.
___________________________

Felicia,

Let's STOP investing time into analyzing inferior men. It's a waste of time, and part of the trickbag of focusing on them instead of focusing on our own interests and our future children's interests.
________________________

Nathifa,

You said, "I agree completely. I just wanted to add that many times out inner voice or our body is telling us or warning us to stay away from danger or that something is wrong. When these men state these ludicrous statements if we listen to ourselves we would get the signal to stay away from this person."

Yes, many AA women override their own natural instincts---in addition to common sense---by choosing to get involved with these types of men. It boggles the mind, and I'll ask a question about that at the end of this comment.
____________________

Nwa'ndo,

You said, "One variation of that statement is to stop getting caught up in what AA men (especially celebrities) are doing so long as it does not impact one's personal space or personal life. If one's space or life is actually being harmed, that's one thing but if it is just about noticing who the latest AA male celebrity is dating, who he refuses to date for whatever reason, or what AA women/BW can do to make it easier for AA men to date them, ignore the fools."

Exactly. I don't understand why so many AA women pay so much attention to BM who are of LOW-,NO-, and in some cases, LESS THAN ZERO value to them.

You said, "In fact, one thing I've started doing when talking to people and someone says "I can't believe [insert some BM celebrity] is dating [insert some non-BW/AA woman] is to ask the individual: "why do you care what XX is doing with his life? Shouldn't you be more concerned about living your own life to the fullest?" That usually stops the whining, which is what I call such "concern/hurt."

Nwa'ndo, THANK YOU for doing this---more of us need to interrupt these outburts of AA women pining over random Negroes whose actions demonstrate that they HATE them.
____________________

Faith,

You're pointing out another angle to this that I find perplexing: So many AA women's lives are FILLED with constant assaults on their minds, spirits, and very beings, and yet so many of them appear to accept this as normal.

For one example, I'm thinking of the voluntary victims that Aphrodite described in reference to the M. Baisden show. Even a roach will make you WORK and chase it in order to harm it!

Meanwhile, legions of AA women***don't get me started on the straight-up ABUSE that many "Orthodox" Muslim AA women will allow***offer themselves up to be mistreated.

What is this about? Previous generations of AA women were NOT living like this modern mess.

Khadija said...

Part 2

The masses of our mother's and older generations of AA women were NOT voluntary victims. Aside from the slavery era, and the EXTERNALLY-generated difficulties created by racism and poverty, previous generations of AA women were NOT being treated by men in a way that was TOTALLY out of step with how every other group of women on the planet were living.

As just one example that I've mentioned in previous conversations, my grandfather would have preferred that my grandmother not work outside the home. My maternal grandmother was a maid for a White family. My grandfather WANTED to do the same thing for my grandmother what that WM was doing for his wife.

My grandfather would have preferred for my grandmother to sit at home in leisure just like that White woman was living. It was a source of shame for him (and many other AA men in his generation) that his wife had to work. He wasn't angry with my grandmother for working---he was upset with himself that she even had to work.

What I'm saying is that, in terms of the how they were being treated by their men, previous generations of free AA women were NOT living in a galaxy FAR away from how non-AA women were living. Which is what's going on right now.

Which leads me to the following section.
_________________________

Everybody:

Here are my questions about all of this---

(1)(a) Is it that AA women are somehow blind to the fact that NO OTHER ethnic group of women is living like the masses of AA women and their children---totally unprotected and totally unprovided for?

(b) Do AA women really not know that they are the only women who, along with their children, have been TOTALLY abandoned?

(c) Do AA women somehow not notice how every other group of women are living in this country?

The following questions refer back to the dreadful scenarios that were described during the recent college dating conversations:

(2) What's going through the minds of the "nuthin' but a BM" AA female college students while they go WITHOUT dates for all 4 years of college? Do they somehow think this is normal?

(3) What's going through these "nuthin' but a BM" young ladies' minds as they watch White girls, Latina girls, Asian girls, "exotic"--half-White-looking Black girls go out on dates (including dates with BM) while they sit in the dorms?

(4) What's going through these "nuthin' but a BM" young ladies' minds as they watch BM students date whoever they want to date, including non-Black women?

If they're blind to all of this, how did they become blind to all of this?

If they see all of these things, why don't they want something better for themselves? Why do they passively accept this?

What is this? I don't understand any of this.


Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Nathifa,

I forgot to mention--Thank you for your kind words about the post; I truly appreciate it.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Felicia said...

Khadija,

IMO these unfortunate BW on some deep level don't have any self-respect, self-value, or really individual self-identity that is separate from what the twisted NON-existent "bc" has planned for them.

Which is basically to be thankless breeders. Workhorses. Mules. And defenders all in one.

Mentally and emotionally these unfortunate BW are shackled to a non-existent "bc" that EVERYONE - besides us BW empowerment bloggers - claims exists.

Therefor, perhaps they believe they are simply playing their pre-ordained role.

To suffer. Too "keep alive" a "community" that on a grand scale (individual pockets of normality are nice but they're not the rule) is ALREADY DEAD.SMH

Perhaps they believe it is predestined by a higher power, that they suffer and are treated beneath every other woman on this planet.

Which is SICK because I wouldn't believe in a higher power that condones hatred of BW.

My God wants the BEST for me and God ONLY helps those who help themselves.

Those BW who wish to survive and thrive are going to have to DO IT THEMSELVES.

To be honest, I DO NOT KNOW and don't WISH to know the answer to your perplexing question Khadija.

The twisted ILLOGICAL behavior of the masses of modern AA BW.

I'm just throwing out ideas...

The only thing that I DO know is that a growing minority of BW are GETTING IT.

AND IT'S ABOUT TIME!

And SOME of us knew "what time it was" (It's ALL about QUALITY and NOTHING BUT quality, screw "race") from the very beginning and therefor spared ourselves the needless grief most sista's are experiencing.

blackotome said...

I think it's motivated reasoning, it's here http://www.newsweek.com/id/213625?digg=1
Everyone does it, in the case of Black women they start out with the wrong conclusions, through early indoctrination. And then basically play mental gymnastics to cling to their ideas. My father is an "old school" aa, so it was PAINFUL for me to let go of the idea of the aa community and watch Big Momma's house go down in flames. I also read writings of Eckhart and he says the "ego/self" needs an identity (no matter what it is) or answers (basically) and I think it's scarier for black women to turn away from the given "answers and identities" and face the unknown. A lot of who I thought I was who I was TOLD to be. It was scary to let that go, but then I could be my true self. Black women need to let go of the lies and the stereotypes others have given us and be our true magnificent selves :D

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

Everybody:

Here are my questions about all of this---

(1)(a) Is it that AA women are somehow blind to the fact that NO OTHER ethnic group of women is living like the masses of AA women and their children---totally unprotected and totally unprovided for?

(b) Do AA women really not know that they are the only women who, along with their children, have been TOTALLY abandoned?

(c) Do AA women somehow not notice how every other group of women are living in this country?

The following questions refer back to the dreadful scenarios that were described during the recent college dating conversations:

(2) What's going through the minds of the "nuthin' but a BM" AA female college students while they go WITHOUT dates for all 4 years of college? Do they somehow think this is normal?

(3) What's going through these "nuthin' but a BM" young ladies' minds as they watch White girls, Latina girls, Asian girls, "exotic"--half-White-looking Black girls go out on dates (including dates with BM) while they sit in the dorms?

(4) What's going through these "nuthin' but a BM" young ladies' minds as they watch BM students date whoever they want to date, including non-Black women?

If they're blind to all of this, how did they become blind to all of this?

If they see all of these things, why don't they want something better for themselves? Why do they passively accept this?

What is this? I don't understand any of this.

My reply:

Mass indoctrination! The abnormal has become normal!

Seeing the same abnormal over an over again, and believing that is the way it should be...Nothing can be changed...that is the way it is going to be...Being gaslighted that there really is no problem...Arguments based upon erroneous revisionist history that ignores the interim history you spoke of in your old-school relatives' generation, that it is noble to be a strong black woman who can do it all...it is noble to be a strong black woman who needs no one...Seeing older black women doing the same thing, experiencing no old-school models...Not dreaming of other possibilities...wanting other possibilities, but not knowing how to get there...trying, but failing...hopelessness and despair...

tertiaryanna said...

part 1

@ Khadija

"If they're blind to all of this, how did they become blind to all of this?

If they see all of these things, why don't they want something better for themselves? Why do they passively accept this?"


I'm going to call the negative mindsets and lies "tropes" just for ease of conversation.

I think that if a trope can do a few things:

1. touch on some commonly observable truth
2. harness some strong emotion to make it more keenly felt.
3. get some amplitude from an external source
4. be easy to disseminate from within the group
5. Not have a quick resolution that will refute it

Then it's spreads like weeds in the yard - multiplies like crazy, lots of work to tear out. It can become intrenched very easily. My mental image is of a beautiful garden, full of healthy, vibrant plants. But mixed into the roses and lilies are deadly nightshade and belladonna. There is kudzu choking the apple tree. How does this happen? Why is there poison in this garden?

Looking at those things in order:

1. the historical propaganda in media spread by White racism that defines femininity and desirability by Whiteness at the expense of Blackness, the sexist and racist propaganda of Black hypermasculinty that defines maleness in terms that neglect prosocial values in terms of antisocial ones, the number imbalance of BW and BM in college, the decline in marriages overall that splits the two-parent cooperative model into one where the mother is the sole caretaker and the father is rarely available,
the idea that most men will not want a woman that's out-achieved him (so that a woman's presumed romantic mate considers her achievements to diminish her.)

These concepts prepare the ground, so to speak. It sets a receptive frame of mind that says to a BW: your achievements are not matched by your male counterparts, so your advancements here are making you (in some way) less attractive as a mate. Also, because you haven't seen men and women in the home together, the idea of being on your own is considered normal and you don't see the value in paired interactions (practice and formal.) You have been taught to conflate manhood with stereotypical ethnic behavior, so when you see a male from another ethnic group, his behavior is not read as masculine (basically, you've got a warped definition of manhood.) Finally, you've been taught that you are not as competitive in your femininity as the women in other ethnic groups (or that what you've been taught of femininity is not aligned to the definition of men outside of BM...the weight thing, etc.)

Again, these are all mindsets, but they're a real strain that allows a person to be susceptible to #2: the strong emotions of wanting to love/be loved and the fear of not achieving that. This is like fertilizer, it accelerates the mind along a particular path of growth.

tertiaryanna said...

part 2

Ok, so you've got the fertile mindset and some Miracle-Gro, and now we need our plants from #3: toxic message, amplified. We've got a lot of airtime for the "concerned" BM, BW who spread the messages that have already been discussed on BWE blogs (IR dating is wrong, or just not going to happen, a woman should wait for the "Black Prince", etc.) Meanwhile, those who oppose that viewpoints get targeted and vilified (think of Alice Walker or person that got called "sellout", "oreo", "wannabe" or "traitor".) It's like planting weeds and pulling out flowers.

Then hit #4: this is the ability to reduce a complex set of ideas and behaviors into a sound byte:

"Nothing but a BM!"
"WM only want BW for sex!" "(fill in the blank ethnicity) men aren't cool enough!"
"He's out there, just wait for him!"
"Those other men only want White girls!"

At it's heart, #4 is a tactic (referencing guerrilla leadership). It encapsulates the emotion and premise (BW should wait on a BM), like how a seed holds the DNA of a plant and so lets it replicate. It just needs fertile soil and some nurturing to grow.

That nurturing comes from #5: not easy to resolve. Because it takes time to change behaviors, to build relationships, and most importantly - to see outside of oneself, the messages planted by so-called "helpers" have time to incubate and thrive. The viewpoints aren't as easy to challenge because the refuting evidence isn't as obvious: they're not seeing IR relationships, or themselves being validated. All the healthy soil is taken up by the plants in #3. And all the gardening labor is going into #4.

So the harvest of this garden (excuse the hyperextended metaphor) is not life-sustaining, but life draining. The flowers are there, but the weeds steal the nutrients. They're just weeds, they can be pulled out, but in my opinion, it explains how a beautiful garden can get smothered.

That also explains how I see the BWE bloggers, in terms of leadership. I think that leadership here touches on how to identify negative mindsets and behaviors (kind of like providing a field guide to toxic and helpful plants.) But ultimately, we are our own gardeners, and must do the labor to weed out the negative, which will help us create the healthy and lifegiving environments that we deserve.

Khadija said...

Everyone,

I'm going to mostly sit back while I ponder your responses to my questions. Please feel free to talk among yourselves while I reflect on the points that you're bringing up.

In the meantime, let me explain why I'm asking these questions:

As African-Americans, we have an established pattern of falling into one calamity after another. When we fail to protect our ethnic self-respect, when we fail to protect our abilities for critical thinking...then even our solutions become NEW, self-destructive problems.

We've talked about this destructive pattern during earlier Sojourner's Meetings. As I've said before:

"A sojourner is not a refugee. Refugees learn new routines and ways of living on the outside. But they do so as servile beggars in relation to non-Black people. Refugees have absolutely no ethnic or racial self respect. Instead of traveling among outsiders as self respecting people with their own proud history, refugees seek to lose themselves among outsiders."

Unless we make a conscious decision to find and strengthen our basis for ethnic self-respect as African-Americans, we will inevitably turn into self-hating, Black-hating refugees.

This is exactly what our people have done with previous paths such as integration and multiculturalism. As a result of not securing our ethnic self-respect, many of us started "carrying water" for other people (be they non-Blacks, non-African-American Blacks, "biracials," etc.) once we got on these previous paths.


I DON'T want that painful pattern to be repeated with The Sojourner's Way. Those of us who have avoided (or escaped) the particular snares that we're discussing can't afford to get cocky. I often see potential problems lurking around the edges of many solution-based conversations at various BWE blogs, including this one.

Khadija said...

Part 2

So let me ask some follow-up questions while I'm digesting your earlier responses:

Felicia,

You said, "IMO these unfortunate BW on some deep level don't have any self-respect, self-value, or really individual self-identity that is separate from what the twisted NON-existent "bc" has planned for them.

...Therefor, perhaps they believe they are simply playing their pre-ordained role.

To suffer. Too "keep alive" a "community" that on a grand scale (individual pockets of normality are nice but they're not the rule) is ALREADY DEAD.SMH

Perhaps they believe it is predestined by a higher power, that they suffer and are treated beneath every other woman on this planet."


I agree that there has to be a LOT of self-disrespect involved in this---in feeling comfortable with "Becky, Lupe, J Lo, Mei Ling, etc." freely enjoying what is being denied to them.

I can't imagine placidly sitting around on a campus all 4 years without a date. I can't imagine continuing to attend any college (such as a HBCU) where I had to date from off-campus in order to have some dates. I would consider all of this to be a crisis. One that I would be extremely agitated about, until it was solved in terms of MY individual experiences.

I wonder---do you think that it's that these AA women are so much tied to a mythical "community," or do they see holding out for "nuthin' but a BM" as a (misguided) way of clinging to a (very) small shred of ethnic self-respect?
______________________

Blackotome,

Thanks for the link to the article; it was very informative. I also believe that it's correct about how a lot of skewed thinking operates.

You said, "I think it's motivated reasoning...Everyone does it, in the case of Black women they start out with the wrong conclusions, through early indoctrination. And then basically play mental gymnastics to cling to their ideas."

What are the specific "wrong conclusions" and "ideas" that you think AA women are clinging to?

[You know, much of this sounds very similar to the kind of religious faith and/or idol worship that is impervious to reason...]

Khadija said...

Part 3

PioneerValleyWoman,

You said, "Seeing the same abnormal over an over again, and believing that is the way it should be...Nothing can be changed...that is the way it is going to be...Being gaslighted that there really is no problem...Arguments based upon erroneous revisionist history that ignores the interim history you spoke of in your old-school relatives' generation...

......Seeing older black women doing the same thing, experiencing no old-school models...Not dreaming of other possibilities...wanting other possibilities, but not knowing how to get there...trying, but failing...hopelessness and despair..."


My response: {shudder}

How do we get the word out that this is NOT normal? This is what I'm thinking about at the moment.

[I think other bloggers have extensively covered the "is is doable?" angle. Incidentally, let me add: Even though I don't do it, I DO think that it's important that other bloggers (like Evia) post photographs of BW with non-Black, non-AA husbands. Especially photos of dark-skinned, "typical"-looking, West African-featured AA women as part of these couples.

This is because I KNOW that many AA women have had their spirits crushed to the extent that they simply don't believe that non-Black men can find a dark-skinned, "typical"-looking (as in not half-White-looking) BW attractive.]
___________________
Tertiaryanna,

Among other salient points you mentioned, "Also, because you haven't seen men and women in the home together, the idea of being on your own is considered normal and you don't see the value in paired interactions (practice and formal.)"

How do we break the delusion that being unpartnered and not provided for is normal for an AA woman?

You said, "Again, these are all mindsets, but they're a real strain that allows a person to be susceptible to #2: the strong emotions of wanting to love/be loved and the fear of not achieving that. This is like fertilizer, it accelerates the mind along a particular path of growth."

I agree that this is a strong fertilizer. But here's the thing---AA women are NOT being loved or appreciated. Instead, they're getting nothing but emotional punches and slaps from the bulk of AA men. What's the emotional payoff for AA women for continuing with the status quo? People don’t do things for “free.” There’s always some sort of perceived payoff—even if it’s a dysfunctional one.

You said, ”Then hit #4: this is the ability to reduce a complex set of ideas and behaviors into a sound byte:

"Nothing but a BM!"
"WM only want BW for sex!" "(fill in the blank ethnicity) men aren't cool enough!"
"He's out there, just wait for him!"
"Those other men only want White girls!"

At it's heart, #4 is a tactic (referencing guerrilla leadership). It encapsulates the emotion and premise (BW should wait on a BM), like how a seed holds the DNA of a plant and so lets it replicate. It just needs fertile soil and some nurturing to grow.”


Anna, that was a brilliant explanation; THANK YOU! It seems that we need to think of some life-AFFIRMING, life-SAVING soundbytes for AA women. And ALSO some soundbytes to encourage Sojourners to continue using critical thinking---to NOT get complacent, cocky, and therefore to avoid falling into NEW snares.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Part of why I'm mentioning the above pattern of falling into new calamities is because I'm thinking of one of Faith's recent blog posts. [Acts of Faith in Love and Life on my blogroll]

Faith's post was about a Black/"biracial" woman comedian who is being sued by her White, Jewish husband's mother for mentioning her racist behavior during her comedy routines. It seems that this racist mother-in-law has been insulting her to her face all throughout her marriage (which has lasted over 10 years).

As I and other commenters pointed out, this particular Black/"biracial" woman made a VERY BAD choice in selecting her husband. She chose an EXTREMELY WEAK-minded male who failed over the years to protect her from his family's racist behavior. He failed miserably in his first duty as a husband---he repeatedly failed to protect his own wife.

That's how the situation escalated to the point where his mother and sister felt emboldened enough to sue his wife. He has his law firm defending her; but he should have nipped all of this in the bud YEARS ago before it escalated into all of this. [Not to mention that this comedian converted to Judaism to marry this weakling.]

This debacle is a perfect example of why I'm trying to emphasize critical thinking and universal values to screen out problem males.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Felicia said...

Khadija, you said...

I wonder---do you think that it's that these AA women are so much tied to a mythical "community," or do they see holding out for "nuthin' but a BM" as a (misguided) way of clinging to a (very) small shred of ethnic self-respect?

My response...

I do believe that most BW do honestly believe there's still a black community that while hurting, can still magically be resurrected somehow. Also, many of the new school BW honestly don't realize that anything is in disarray. Some come from 3 generations or more of fatherlessness. You can't mourn something - like normality for instance - that you never knew and no other female in your immediate surroundings ever knew.

About this ethnic/"racial" self-respect thing, this is what I don't get. The majority of the BW (especially new school) I've personally seen exhibiting the LOWEST self-respect period - ethnic or otherwise - are the nothing but a black male types.

They're the ones getting infected with HIV AIDS at the highest rates. They're the ones with the 70% single rate and over 70% OOW birthrate. I could go on and on when it comes to negative stats.

What does ANY of this have to do with ethnic/"racial" self-pride?

White men who are interested in BW are the LEAST colorist, and the least obsessed about BW's features, hair-texture, and length.

The MOST accepting of BW in their/our natural state.

So it would seem to me, that a BW with ethnic/"racial" pride would be attracted to and interested in men who would be the MOST confirming, accepting, and loving of THEM and their African descended physical traits. Their personalities as is without the contortions. Regardless of "race".

But see, you have to be INDIVIDUALLY minded to think this way. And most BW are instead GROUP focused and oriented.

TO THEIR DOWNFALL because MOST BM these days are looking out for BM. BW and children be damned.

Me myself and I is their motto.

But BW are still talking about "we".SMH

When there IS no "we" anymore. Not on a grand scale.

THAT is BW's DOWNFALL. Concentrating on the group (damaged or not, regardless of gender) as opposed to THEMSELVES. And who's most loving to them on an INDIVIDUAL level.

Ethnic and "racial" self-pride has to do with knowing your VALUE and not settling for less.

Evia said...

THAT is BW's DOWNFALL. Concentrating on the group (damaged or not, regardless of gender) as opposed to THEMSELVES. And who's most loving to them on an INDIVIDUAL level.

Oh, Felicia, I can tell you how the bc deals quickly with any bw who starts putting herself first. They go at her with hooves and claws and say things like, "Black folks are community-minded; White folks are individualistic." They make individualism sound EVIL. LOL!

So thinking about yourself, first and foremost for an AA woman is considered "acting white." Therefore, you're labeled as "one of THEM (evil, selfish greedy white folks)" or you've "forgotten where you came from," and yadda, yadda. They'll bring up the type of bc that we used to have and use a guilt tactic like, "Suppose those black folks back in the day only thought about themselves, where would you be?"

And on and on, it goes. You cannot be halfway in the Matrix and halfway out, they will definitely work on you to pull you back in. You have to get away from them! I mean, you really have to have your head on straight and thinking critically whenever dealing with AAs, or they will get you! I know this because they still try these tactics on me WHENEVER I'm around groups of AAs, but I dismiss them because I'm always thinking critically and I DO have another place to go since I've mostly lived apart from AA norms or "abnorms" since I was 18.

Young AA women need to get out NOW because every second you invest in the bc and exclusively black social circles, that's time and other resources that you could have invested elsewhere. Research has shown that people are not likely to walk away from their investment (time, energy, money, etc.), whether it's good or bad. For ex., the longer a salesperson can keep you listening to him/her, the greater the likelihood that you will buy the product--because you have already invested time and energy in listening to them. This is pure social psychology.

Also, as an AA woman, you're constantly patted on the head for GIVING and ripped for ever thinking about yourself first. "Giving" and "being there" for others" are the ONLY times an AA woman gets approval. If I'm wrong about that, then somebody tell me: What other time does an AA woman get approval and acceptance? So people (and all other animals) always go back to
the well that gives water. More pure social psychology.

AA women face social OSTRACISM for putting themselves first and foremost and as has been stated, they don't see any visible and easily attainable reward for going against the status quo. And without having an alternative normal social group to be able to enter and receive support from, many AA women don't want to risk losing the dysfunctional group they have. That's why many of them cling to the black church even though they know about the rotten stuff that happens there.

I advise any AA woman to--if nothing else--just find ONE likeminded AA woman who wants to also escape and y'all secretly plan together, help and support each other. You may even be able to find TWO of them. LOL! There are actually lots of other AA women who are desperate to escape, but they see themselves as the only one, so they stay quiet because even talking about escape is considered suspicious or traitorous thinking by the bc and even by many well-educated, high-income blacks.

I've pointed this out before: AA women need a TOTAL overhaul in their thinking because in 2009, it's their THINKING/mindset that's the major culprit in keeping them weighted down. Nothing else.

If there were actual Sojournervilles in existence, many AA women would leave the bc, but as of now, many of them have no place to go and don't feel capable of creating new places for themselves.

Felicia said...

"or do they see holding out for "nuthin' but a BM" as a (misguided) way of clinging to a (very) small shred of ethnic self-respect?"

Whatever these sisters reasoning is, OUTSIDE the Matrix, it probably looks as if these attractive, professional, college educated, successful BW who remain chronically single, year after year, showing up to events alone or in large groups with fellow single BW, are simply Asexual.

And not interested in men period. Because so many BW are "frontin" out there as if everything is fine and dandy, and still managing to get the job done,

Sexless work horses. There for everyone. Dependable and support to everyone.

I imagine many outside the Matrix have NO idea the level of indoctrination that BW have suffered from. And honestly believe these hordes of BW are single and dateless because they're just not interested in the opposite sex. I don't think they believe all of these BW are lesbians. I just think they must assume that BW don't prioritize relationships and marriage for whatever reason. Or at least not at the SAME rate as everyone else outside of the Matrix.

Unfortunately when you get down to it, and look at the actual results, these others may be on to something.

And even if a black person would tell someone from outside the "community" they're reasoning. This conditioned "nothing but a black male" NONSENSE. They STILL wouldn't understand. Because this "excuse" doesn't make a DAMN bit of sense. ESPECIALLY considering the observable behavior of BM. And the open contempt many of them have for BW these days.

This "excuse" just makes BW look crazy and pitiful. Masochistic even.

Which is not a good look.

And it lowers the perceived attractiveness level of AA BW as a whole.

Khadija said...

Evia,

You said, "You cannot be halfway in the Matrix and halfway out, they will definitely work on you to pull you back in. You have to get away from them! I mean, you really have to have your head on straight and thinking critically whenever dealing with AAs, or they will get you!"

This is one of several problems lurking around the edges of many conversations. I can tell that there are a lot of women who nod their heads in agreement...and then keep doing the SAME things that they've been doing. Such as continuing to hang around all-Black social circles, and continuing to go into interactions with AA men assuming that they're allies and friends, continuing to listen to mess like the Michael Baisen, Tom Joyner, etc. shows, continuing to watch BET, etc.

These women continue to go to places (for example, most AA men's blogs, and particularly Internet Ike Turner blogs), and go around people (most AA men, and most all-Black social settings) where they make themselves available to be emotionally punched, kicked and slapped.

And then these women sustain NEW wounds after having NEW, unguarded interactions with AA men. [Even though we've warned them to STOP doing this.] And then they come running back to various blogs looking for emotional support for the fresh injuries that they would have avoided if they had simply GOTTEN OUT of the Matrix when they were first warned!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Nathifa said...

I agree with PioneerWomenValley. She stated that it is noble to be a strong black woman who can do it all...it is noble to be a strong black woman who needs no one...Seeing older black women doing the same thing, experiencing no old-school models...Not dreaming of other possibilities...wanting other possibilities, but not knowing how to get there...trying, but failing...hopelessness and despair...
I think BW believe that it is a badge of honor to suffer , to be alone and to do it all alone. I think BW look at this as sign of strenght. I think the reason why so many look at this as a sign of strenght is because they are being told it is. But also notice how the other part of the equation is never discussed. If BW doing everything is a sign of strenght then BM doing nothing is a sign of weakness.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

I wonder---do you think that it's that these AA women are so much tied to a mythical "community," or do they see holding out for "nuthin' but a BM" as a (misguided) way of clinging to a (very) small shred of ethnic self-respect?

My reply:

The ethnic self-respect comes from merely being in all-black groups and experiencing the fellowship of all-black groups. But again, in those groups, the experience the abnormal: mostly women, few men, but at least they will be around people whom they believe will accept and understand them, even though the desirable social dynamics are not there.

They believe they will stand out in ways that will make them uncomfortable, ie., they may have had bad experiences in all-white social groups.

So thinking back to the college example, some of the comments I can think of reading earlier, many young black girls are not encouraged to date in high school. Their parents are concerned about their young daughters and their vulnerability--the teen years can be dangerous.

They might be going into college where they are in majority white environments and they feel they are in over their heads. They might be from urban environments, but their peers are suburban whites.

All these can lead to difficulties in making connections and so forth, including for dating.

And as for those interested in dating, who will be their girlfriends to hang out with and "have their backs"? The other black girls, whom they know through the black student groups might be in "only a black man" mode or "I'm here to work" mode.

Socialize with Becky? That has its own minefields and can result, if they are not too careful, in becoming "refugees", the asexual Mammy type who is there for Becky.

They go out, Becky is in high demand (while black girls might not be), or Becky, in strategizing (she has been doing this since high school) can be working towards making sure non-white/Asian/Latin women are blocked out...

Or they feel self-conscious, because they don't have the looks, etc., that some of the Beckys have, to fit in and be found interesting/desirable, etc.

So what are the solutions? I think black girls in school, as we have been saying, should choose their social circles carefully. Figure out where they fit in and go there.

Stay away from the people, groups and parties that don't coincide with one's values, interests, and so forth...Campuses have all sorts of student groups, and it is easy to meet people in one's classes.

I explained this in light of my experience observing and chatting with my young black female students over the years.

On the other hand, the worse situations are those of young black women from upper middle class suburban environments who have no need to feel self-conscious anywhere, but who limit themselves to all-black social groups, and then in their work lives, gravitate towards meeting black community needs/interest groups where they are not exposed to different types of people and mindsets...They want the camaraderie of blackness...But it harms their social prospects. Urgh!

Nathifa said...

Khadija stated. How do we get the word out that this is NOT normal? This is what I'm thinking about at the moment.

We have to keep having conversations with other like minded-BW. But the onious has to be on the BW to look in the mirror so to speak. It is very painful to have to admit what we are seeing with our own eyes. Some feel more safe pretending that they do not see what's in front of them. Because they will understand that everything that they have been told to believe is a lie. For those that want to continue to believe the lies they will do so at their own peril.

Khadija stated This is one of several problems lurking around the edges of many conversations. I can tell that there are a lot of women who nod their heads in agreement...and then keep doing the SAME things that they've been doing. Such as continuing to hang around all-Black social circles, and continuing to go into interactions with AA men assuming that they're allies and friends, continuing to listen to mess like the Michael Baisen, Tom Joyner, etc. shows, continuing to watch BET, etc.

I think this is a bad habit. There going to have cravings and then they will get slapped back into reality enough times that they will eventually stop. I have been working with a BW friend of mine and trying to help her get more acquinated with life outside of the BC. I have reminded her she has other choices. For example if her WF co- worker asks her to go to the bar/pub after work go. If she wants to go clubbing go on International night, Latin Night not just the HipHop night. Join a book club, her son's PTA or volunter at the school to meet other people. Speak to the other mothers at her son's soccer practice and games.

Karen said...

Khadija said,

This is one of several problems lurking around the edges of many conversations. I can tell that there are a lot of women who nod their heads in agreement...and then keep doing the SAME things that they've been doing. Such as continuing to hang around all-Black social circles, and continuing to go into interactions with AA men assuming that they're allies and friends, continuing to listen to mess like the Michael Baisen, Tom Joyner, etc. shows, continuing to watch BET, etc.


These women know "intellectually" that it is time to move on have not yet done so emotionally. It is much like a grieving process, the behaviour is similar being in denial that the person is truly dead. They know intellectually that the BC is dead and that the majority of BMs are demonstrating loud and clear via youtubes, websites, blogs, etc. that they have contempt for BW and especially the upwardly mobile BWs.

But to be able to divest emotionally takes resolve and courage, neither of which is easy or happens overnight unless some catastrophic event triggers it.

In my opinion, those "catastrophic" events are already here, AID/HIV reaching epidemic levels among BW and children, OOW, escalating Violence agains BW and children.

The events are here, these women need to now develop the emotional resolve and courage to leave and to STOP LOOKING BACK.

Nathifa said...

I just want other womens thoughts on why if BW believe that being alone and raising children alone is a sign of strenght then why would we chase weakness. Why would we chase a weak male. Do we have such low self esteem that we feel powerful being with a weaker person.I think back to when I was doing this. I think I believed and was taught to believe that BM were being oppressed by WM and that because of the opression I could not hold BM to the same standards of other men. BM were somehow different or required special treatment.

Khadija said...

Felicia,

You said, "And not interested in men period. Because so many BW are "frontin" out there as if everything is fine and dandy, and still managing to get the job done,..."

As far as I'm concerned this "fronting" behavior---to protect AA males' image and/or AA males' physical safety---is yet another misguided activity that AA women have to STOP doing. AA women need to STOP the CHARADE; and stop "fronting" like the AA collective is filled with the Huxtables.

You're not fooling anybody. Others have learned not to speak the truth of their observations to our faces---we'll shriek and call them racists. But they see what we're all doing. And as Felicia says, when AA women continue playing this particular charade, it makes us look masochistic and deranged. We need to knock it off with that.

I'm still horrified by the numbers of AA women who are screaming about Oscar Grant, Michael Vick, and Skip Gates, etc. Why do so many of y'all care? AA men are NOT screaming about Dunbar Village or the Hovey Street murders or the Jennifer Hudson Family Massacre or Nailah Franklin or [....] or [....] or [...] the countless other fill-in-the-blank atrocities against AA women and children. Why are so many of you screaming over random men from among a group of men who mostly HATE you (as demonstrated by their ACTIONS)?
_____________________

PioneerValleyWoman,

You said, "So what are the solutions? I think black girls in school, as we have been saying, should choose their social circles carefully. Figure out where they fit in and go there.

Stay away from the people, groups and parties that don't coincide with one's values, interests, and so forth...Campuses have all sorts of student groups, and it is easy to meet people in one's classes."


I start to wonder if these young ladies even have interests to pursue? It seems to me that the "acting Black" straightjacket has tightened into a noose over the past 20-25 years.

Just looking at the college age young ladies in my family, I don't see many younger AA women experimenting with various interests. Which is incomprehensible to me because when I went away to college I had a mental checklist of various things (academic and otherwise) that I wanted to try, learn, and do!

So many of the college age AA women have already narrowed themselves into extremely tiny niches---intellectually, socially, etc. I don't see much intellectual curiosity. I don't see much curiosity about the much wider world. What I do see is a lot of "I came here to work--period." It's a shame.

And this "I came to work---meanwhile I'm missing out on most of the college experience" mindset is actually encouraged by a lot of AA parents. As was brought up during the recent college dating conversations, these parents don't understand the problems that this mindset inadvertently causes for these girls later in life.
______________________

Nathifa,

You said, "For those that want to continue to believe the lies they will do so at their own peril."

Indeed.
________________________

Karen,

You said, "But to be able to divest emotionally takes resolve and courage, neither of which is easy or happens overnight unless some catastrophic event triggers it.

In my opinion, those "catastrophic" events are already here, AID/HIV reaching epidemic levels among BW and children, OOW, escalating Violence agains BW and children.

The events are here, these women need to now develop the emotional resolve and courage to leave and to STOP LOOKING BACK."


All of which makes me wonder---Are these women waiting for one of these already-in-progress catastrophes to personally strike THEM before they respond appropriately by running for their lives?

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Karen said...

Khadija,

You said, "All of which makes me wonder---Are these women waiting for one of these already-in-progress catastrophes to personally strike THEM before they respond appropriately by running for their lives?"

If they are, then it will be in many cases too late. To have to experience HIV/AIDS really diminishes the chances to live an abundant life when your health is permanently compromised.

As for OOW, difficult but not impossible. Lastly with violence, if it does not lead to permanent injuries or death, it is also difficult but not impossible.

There is no more time to be waiting for those who want to escape.

Aphrodite said...

"The masses of our mother's and older generations of AA women were NOT voluntary victims. Aside from the slavery era, and the EXTERNALLY-generated difficulties created by racism and poverty, previous generations of AA women were NOT being treated by men in a way that was TOTALLY out of step with how every other group of women on the planet were living."



This is a really powerful statement. If BW women are both doing worse comparatively to other groups of women in addition to doing worse than previous generations of AA women (who lived under harsher conditions) - then that is really saying something.




"Why are grown women listening to other biological adults say nonsensical things? And especially nonsensical things that are intended as justifications for their OWN mistreatment?"



The times that I listened to "advice" to my detriment it was delivered in such a way as "I won't tell you anything wrong" and it was given by those I trusted to a degree by people whom I considered my elders. Since I had nothing to really contradict what they were saying and little experience of my own/ contrasted with what I assumed to be their vast experience - I listened.

As far as mistreatment goes I guess that goes along with having a lowered standard of what is normal.

I can honestly say that at times I didn't see some of the bad treatment as mistreatment at the time I was being mistreated.

It was happening to lots of people I knew and I witnessed in many relationships around me. I was also told point blank that you are going to have to "put up with something" bc that is how men are. Or that "love is pain" - love hurts.


It was only until after it was said and done and I started talking with others that I started to realize how "duped" I had been and how abnormal certain things were. I knew that it hurt, but everyone made it seem like it was par for the course and something you had to accept if you wanted to date or be in a relationship.

Aphrodite said...

@ PVW

I co-sign with the mass indoctrination.


I never really compared myself with other groups of women during undergrad. I just kept my head down and worked. I won't say I considered not dating/courting normal, but I was led to believe that it would work itself out and that I shouldn't focus on dating for marriage for a variety of reasons.

Aphrodite said...

@Khadija

"If they're blind to all of this, how did they become blind to all of this?"


I don't think they are blind- I think they are numb. I think you have to deaden/literally kill off a part/parts of yourself in order to function in the face of all that you mentioned in the questions you asked.

Which ties into what Felicia said about some BW appearing asexual. That is a process that doesn't happen overnight. We are all human and there is a lot of numbing/shutting down/deadening that goes into that - and a lot of pain at the root.

Aphrodite said...

@ Evia

""Black folks are community-minded; White folks are individualistic." They make individualism sound EVIL. LOL!"


I have noticed this too, but only with peeps in my religion. I have noticed that some AAs use this word the same way the use the feminism word to shut people up and it usually works.

Khadija said...

Aphrodite,

THANK YOU for being generous and brave enough to explain some of this from the inside. So these young BF college students have numbed themselves to what is going on around them...{sigh} You've given me a lot of food for thought.

You said, "This is a really powerful statement. If BW women are both doing worse comparatively to other groups of women in addition to doing worse than previous generations of AA women (who lived under harsher conditions) - then that is really saying something."

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. In terms of how they're being treated, modern AA women are doing worse than other groups of women AND worse than previous generations of free AA women! It IS shocking.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

No problem Khadija! :)

And thank you because I am learning so much!

blackotome said...

wrong ideas aimed at black women, there are so many...
1. The idea of an "aa" community
2. Black Love
3. Black women are unnatractive compared to non black women
4. That it's natural for black women to be mules, alone, masculine etc.
5. Just pray and a god will send you a black prince.
6. The failings of bm are ALL due to racism.
7. Because you're a black girl/woman you can't do __________.
I could go on and on. Though I'm not sure where this starts, we're not born with these ideas. I know it has to be very young by watching the "girl like me" video where black children chose the white dolls as good/pretty. I had a great family so I've avoided a lot of pitfalls, but I know I've been told these things by other people (in person or through the media) it's like if they repeat the lies and myths enough they become reality. I see why people call it the matrix.

Khadija said...

Blackotome,

Yep, there are all sorts of bad ideas being marketed to AA women.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.