Tuesday, February 3, 2009

Table Talk for Activists, Part 3: Don't Delegitimize Your Struggle By Making "White People Are Doing 'It' Too" Arguments

This essay is contained in my new book. I'm delighted to announce that The Sojourner's Passport site has launched! You can visit it at http://www.sojournerspassport.com/.

Everyone, I can't thank you enough for your ongoing encouragement and support; I truly appreciate it. Your support is what made this possible. And here's a special shout-out to my web designers at Educo Web Design. They're nice people to deal with, and they do outstanding work!

Peace and blessings,
Khadija Nassif
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Whenever the topic of wrongs committed by Blacks comes up, there are always plenty of Black folks who link and measure our evil deeds with those of Whites. I believe that this traditional, knee-jerk response is a serious error. As much as we like to scream about how we're being victimized, many of us feel perfectly comfortable victimizing others.

The "White people are doing it too," or "White people did it worse," or "White people are doing it more" arguments are totally irrelevant when considering the evil of some of our people's actions. Furthermore, these arguments are: (1) ethically repugnant; and even worse, (2) a dangerous strategic liability in terms of African-Americans' long-term interests.

Ever since the Open Letter to Princeton Theological Seminary post, White, racist trolls from Princeton Theological Seminary (PTS) have been stalking several Black activist blogs. Muslim Bushido is one of the blogs that they've been stalking. It pleases me to know that these racists are still smarting from this blog's (and other blogs') call for justice regarding the hate crime at PTS. [Click on the "Say NO to Racism at Princeton" badge under the masthead for more details]

I had a brief exchange with one of the racist PTS trolls in the comment section of the Negative National Security Impact of Damaged Beyond Repair Black Men post. This particular racist said:

"In all fairness to black guys, white guys are the original DBR. We just didn't just go rape some people.. we colonizied a bunch of people, wiped out some civilizations and started a couple of world wars. Black men have a looooooong way to go to match that. And really.. who do muslims hate more than evil, white, European guys?"

I responded:

"Anonymous:

Hmmm. You could be a DBRBM pretending to write in as a WM. {No...your anonymous note doesn't have quite the "right" tone for that}

Or your primary issue could be that you're an anti-Muslim bigot of any ethnicity. {No...that doesn't sound quite right either}

Or, you could be one of the Princeton Theological Seminary (PTS) racists who is still smarting from this blog's, and other blogs', call for justice at PTS . . . DING! DING! DING! By George, I think that's it! Funny how you're still stalking activist Black blogs.

Whatever. {yawn} It really doesn't matter. Ayatullah Murtaza Mutahhari gave a concise summary of the Islamic position in his book Social and Historical Change: An Islamic Perspective: "Islam is oriented toward justice and equality. Plainly, those who benefit from this orientation are the deprived and oppressed, and those who lose are the plunderers, monopolists, and exploiters. Even where Islam works to secure the rights and interests of a class, its primary aim is to realize a value, to found a humane principle." pg. 119.

Muslims have a problem with whoever it is that's doing something wrong. Remember that, Anonymous.

With justice in mind."

As the exchange continued, the racist troll was very eager to try to elicit a "White people have done 'it' worse" response from me. You may ask, "Why would a White racist WANT to hear a Black person agree with the 'White people have done 'it' worse' argument?" Answer: Because these sorts of arguments almost always serve his (racist) interests! In many different ways.

Making "White People Are Doing 'It' Too, etc." Arguments Serves to Delegitimize Your Struggle

Let me explicitly point out the strategic danger of engaging in the "White people are doing it too, etc." framing of issues related to Black folks' wrongdoing. White racists like to hear that sort of reasoning and arguments from Black folks. The racists like it because these type of arguments serve to delegitimize our struggles for justice!

The "White folks are doing 'it' too" type of arguments let everyone know that the speaker is NOT interested in justice. It lets everyone know that the speaker is NOT taking a stand based on principle, but instead on the basis of ethnic favoritism of some sort.

Engaging in the "White people are doing 'it' too", etc." arguments plays into White racists' public relations strategy of characterizing our struggles as corrupt hustles and/or shakedowns.

When you make these sorts of arguments, you are helping to convince neutral, non-Black bystanders that your cause is unworthy of their support. Here's why:

Unless you have worked to establish an ACLU-type reputation for advocating on behalf of the U.S. Constitution across the board, it looks as if you simply want any and all Black criminals to go unpunished when you make these sorts of statements. It looks like you are callously disregarding the pain that Black predators have inflicted upon other people. It looks like you have no ethical center to your arguments. It looks like you have no concern for public safety. Finally, it looks like you have no common sense.

Non-Blacks have NO inherent interest in having Black predators go unpunished.

Those audience members who remember some of the other comments from the White racist PTS trolls, will recall that these racists assumed that we would NOT want a Black hate-crime perpetrator punished. They assumed that our calls for justice were actually calls for ethnic favoritism.

Over the years, you've heard some of the racists' pet phrases: "special treatment," "special interests," etc. You feed into this characterization by making "White people are doing 'it' too, etc." arguments. Please know that it seriously throws White racists off their game when you demand justice across the board.

White Racists Have Nothing to Lose by Admitting Their People's Past Crimes Such as Genocide, etc. YOU and YOUR Struggle Have a LOT to Lose by Making "White People are Doing 'It' Too, etc." Arguments.

Evia was quite incisive in her response, and pointed out several extremely important points about all of this. She correctly analyzed the troll's comments as:

". . . just another form of the same protective device to enable the DBRbm to continue their reign of brutalizing NON-WHITE females. Now just let these DBRbm start going into white communities raping 12 year old white girls and doing some the vile things they do to unprotected black girls, bw and other nonwhite women, there would be lynchings again in this country.

See, it’s easy for wm to make excuses for da po bm (IF that was a white person) on blogs and such, but you just let Tyrone go into those white communities raping little white girls and preying on ww and see what would happen. And any white person like your commenter (if s/he was white) who’d try to make excuses for them would be strung up too.

. . . I always point out to these folks that white folks know what they’ve done here, there, and everywhere because their historians document their heinous acts, but this is also why whites are willing to pump billion of dollars into THEIR military industrial complex. And this is why they knew/know they need nuclear weapons. Last time I checked, AAs don’t have a military and we don’t have any nuclear weapons.

. . . Whereas the white DBRs that your commenter mentioned are not held accountable (since their people control the United States military and nuclear weapons), AAs won’t have anything to protect us from the backlash that these damaged black males are causing."

She's absolutely right about all of that.

First of all, you should realize that the entire topic is a joke to the racist troll. He knows that his collective will NOT be held accountable for their history of genocide, slavery, etc. So he can make all the historical admissions he wants, without it undermining his people's interests. The additional joke for him is that he's dishonestly pretending to shed crocodile tears for long dead victims of color, while ignoring and brushing off the suffering of still-living victims of color.

When we join the racist troll (and others) in making the "White people are doing 'it' too, etc." arguments, we are undermining our people's interests. We are furthering the racist characterization of our struggles as ethnic favoritism-based hustles.

We are also driving away potential non-Black allies. You see, the only thing that non-Blacks usually hear from us are demands that Black criminals escape punishment. As well as a steady stream of excuses and denials of the evil done by some Blacks. They almost never hear any of us calling for any Black predator to be punished.

Secondly, keep in mind that racists do NOT wish you and other Black people well. They do NOT want to see the African-American collective cleanse itself of the crime and evil within. Racists are quite comfortable when Black folks excuse and enable evils that these same racists would NEVER tolerate running rampant within their collective.

"White people are doing 'it' too, etc." arguments serve to excuse and enable evil. These sorts of arguments also undermine our long-term interests. It's long past time to stop using them.

19 comments:

ActsofFaithBlog said...

Hello: And you are absolutely correct. I have my moments where I recall all the indoctrination of my past and what I call 'special circumstances' (i.e sympathy for M. Jones) but the scales have fallen from my eyes and I get it. Hey even Obama had to step up and admit he messed up! Now if only the rest of the Black community would wake up, start naming names and turning in criminals.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Faith!

Oh, it took a while for these particular scales to fall from my eyes. The "typical" AA has been indoctrinated to have a "rally around the Black accused criminal" knee-jerk reaction.

This is because our kneejerk "rally around the accused criminals" response WAS an adaptive response in earlier eras. This response didn't just drop out of the sky. It was the result of VERY REAL injustices that were done to our people.

This response made sense in the context of the Scottsboro boys and Rosa Parks.

The problem with continuing to maintain this response is that the Scottsboro boys case was in the 1930s; and Rosa Parks' case was in the 1950s. Modern Black accused criminals are NOT the Scottsboro boys or Rosa Parks. Instead, they are the Dunbar Village gang rapists.

Modern Black ex-felons are NOT Malcolm X. Instead, they are more like the creature who is accused of murdering Jennifer Hudson's family members (including shooting a small child in the head).


Our knee-jerk response has become obsolete over the decades. We have now reached a point where this response undermines AA interests. If we had an effective cadre of leaders, more of us would understand that.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Greetings, Khadija!

I have been thinking of this issue since reading the last post on DBR men overseas.

I'm so glad you put it this way, because I was thinking of some of the same issues in the context of coddling criminals: lack of moral fiber and a firm sense of ethics combined with an absolute absence of critical thinking skills.

These apologists act as though every single black male suspect was railroaded (and thus not guilty).

Because of that, they fail to realize that there are black male criminal suspects who are dangerous and a "menace to society," and coddling won't help them or their victims.

They fail to consider that there are instances when justice must be pursued in the name of punishing perpetrators!

When they remain silent when "those women" are targeted, do they think that these same perpetrators won't target others in the community, or is it that it doesn't matter?

It is quite clear, though, that their victims in the black community really don't matter in the eyes of the Civil Rights Establishment, and that the black community only gets pissed off when some other community seeks to protect themselves from the perpetrators in the midst of the black community, from the very evil that undermines the black community from within.

It is truly evil.

Tam said...

In all fairness to black guys, white guys are the original DBR. We just didn't just go rape some people.. we colonizied a bunch of people, wiped out some civilizations and started a couple of world wars. Black men have a looooooong way to go to match that. And really.. who do muslims hate more than evil, white, European guys?"


What nerve. This guy is insulting Black people's intelligence. He is saying in a convoluted way, that White men have created deviant behavior in BMs. He is saying that without the WM's tutelege we would know nothing about oppressing, warring, raping etc. He is saying that BMs through no fault of their own were taught to be the way they are.

By the writer saying that they (WMs) colonized people and wiped out civilizations, he is saying that his own civilation is dominant to all those his people "wiped out" We (Black People), the writer is saying are tragic figures in history.

Totally veering off topic, nevertheless, this is the reason why I can not stand to hear people regard Black People of accomplishment as the First Black to do... To me it is condescending and sending a message that everything we know we learned from them.

It seems to me BP relish the thought of being First Black to do anything. We tend to take pride in the title.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I've been thinking of this further in light of an observation.

This type of thinking "well they are doing it too" is the sort of juvenile thinking that many parents hear all the time, and the parental response should be: "Well, if everyone is jumping off the roof, are you going to join them?"

Yet, it is scary to hear grown men and women making those types of arguments, and it is not uncommon.

In a graduate seminar I took on African American and African intellectual history, I saw a similar type argument in a text I read for the class. We were called upon to discuss the text, and I zoomed in on the argument. Yet, I was surprised that the book's editors did not call the author on it, or suggest to him a more nuanced discussion of culpability and responsibility...How many might have read the text without thinking critically, though? Truly irresponsible.

Hollywood Blackout said...

Hi Khadija - another great post!

In my estimation what is currently going on in the black communiy is nothing short of Darwin's theory come to life. The protection of black men against the racist white (in)justice system was necessary in the past. This haven of safety black women created for black men was designed to keep him out of the white man's hands so that he can continue to be a positive force within the community. We didn't want him snatched up because some white woman said he looked at her. We knew what would happen to him if "they" got hold of him. He was usually innocent and at the worst he may have lost his head and did something foolish. But he was most certainly not a violent criminal.

Fast-forward to the present and we see that black women have not been able to EVOLVE to see how the dynamics within the community have changed. They are still protecting the innocent and wrongly-accused but they have allowed the guilty demons to join this cloak of protection. They have been conned but they are not thinking critically enough to see that they have been conned. They believe that all black men should be protected from the system because they have been spoon-fed this ridiculous idea that the life and freedom of a black man directly results in their LIFE AND FREEDOM. But like you have discussed on this blog numerous times, the black men that are "free" are not at all interested in building up the community or protecting black women and children.

So black women have GOT TO EVOLVE and see where the best results for them and their children lie. It is not in protecting rapists, molesters, robbers, thieves, and murderers. Because we all know that most of the time when a black man committs those crimes he is harming a black woman or child FIRST. Before he robbed and raped the white college student he more than likely robbed and raped a BLACK GIRL FIRST. But too many black women have the knee-jerk reaction of "those white folks out to get him" and they rally and cry and march. But what about when he did it to one of his nieces or cousins and everyone just looked the other way? It's unbelievable.

But the lack of ability to critically think and act strategically is going to be the demise of the black community in America. If people cannot adapt to change they will die - and black women are dying (literally and figuratively) and leaving their children vunerable to repeat the same mistakes.

START SNITCHING and if you're afraid to snitch, LEAVE. Otherwise you will end up dead.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Tam!

Yep. There were MANY layers of foul assumptions in the troll's comments.

And in terms of the mass, hysterical jubilation whenever there is a "First Black _______": We have mistaken symbolic advances for the real thing. In fact, it has reached the point that we're not even looking for substantive progress. We are actually content with empty symbols. It's crazy.
___________________

Hello there, Pioneer Valley Woman!

Yes. The "White people are doing it too" arguments do bring back memories of 2nd grade.

You said, "Yet, I was surprised that the book's editors did not call the author on it, or suggest to him a more nuanced discussion of culpability and responsibility...How many might have read the text without thinking critically, though? Truly irresponsible."

I wonder if it even feasible for the editor to question that argument in the text. Especially if the editor was non-Black. In such instance, there would have been howls of racism.

You know how we scream whenever somebody questions our pet dogma. Even when it's somebody we looove...like the Obama-ssiah.
_____________________

Greetings, Hollywood Blackout!

Thank you for your kind words about the post. I truly appreciate it.

You said, "So black women have GOT TO EVOLVE and see where the best results for them and their children lie. It is not in protecting rapists, molesters, robbers, thieves, and murderers. Because we all know that most of the time when a black man committs those crimes he is harming a black woman or child FIRST. Before he robbed and raped the white college student he more than likely robbed and raped a BLACK GIRL FIRST."

EXACTLY!

You said, "But the lack of ability to critically think and act strategically is going to be the demise of the black community in America. If people cannot adapt to change they will die - and black women are dying (literally and figuratively) and leaving their children vunerable to repeat the same mistakes.

START SNITCHING and if you're afraid to snitch, LEAVE. Otherwise you will end up dead."


PREACH!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

Khadija, Spot on!

When AAs go into the "white folks did it too," mode, they are forever trying to pay whites back for the government-sponsored slavery, Jim Crow, and presentday racial structures. I am in favor of some sort of "sensible" reparations program from the government, but that's about it. Other than that, there needs to be groups set up by blacks in every area so that blacks can work through their pain and healing about slavery and Jim Crow because that pain makes AAs act stupid and is very clearly destructive.

I'm a pragmatist, a realist and a globalist. IMO, yesterday should be over if you're struggling to live today. You can't successfully deal with both at the same time.

his collective will NOT be held accountable for their history of genocide, slavery, etc. So he can make all the historical admissions he wants, without it undermining his people's interests.

This is SO true and the world does NOT care. In essence, the world has moved on after thinking about AAs for a split second, if that long. The world (including the bulk of folks in other groups of blacks too) does NOT care about white injustices towards AAs because white people (with all of their dastardly deeds) have set themselves up in the world to be able to FEED people and provide safety. Without food, there is no life. That's what the world cares about. FOOD + safety = Life. The overwhelming masses of the people in the world are still operating at the basic levels of safety and food, incluiding many AAs. If AAs could feed people, then the world would care about our pain and would ally itself with us, whether they liked us or not. AAs can't even feed themselves and obviously can't keep themselves safe.

There are plenty of groups in the world who don't like white people, but they ally themselves with whites because whites can feed them or otherwise give them something they NEED/want (safety, status, uplift of some sort). And you can't do ANYTHING if you don't have food and safety. But whites know that these groups (including some other white groups) don't like them or in some cases may even depise them, and this is the reason for THEIR military industrial complex, including the nukes.

Does the average AA person know they're in competion with all other groups for basic survival? In the world, all groups compete for vital resources (uncontaminated food, water, air, shelter, good health care, Quality mates, education, etc.) Only a very tiny percent of people in the entire world have these things.

As an AA, I know this is painful for AAs to hear, but if we look at world history, groups of people or large numbers of folks in the group get swallowed up or decimated all of the time. AAs are not a special case in world history if we look closely at it, but lots of AAs are STUCK on what happened to us a few hundred years ago and its aftermath and this is the reason for discussions of this type. This wasn't fair to us but life has never been fair. Many AAs are naively stuck on "fairness." I think AAs have swallowed the public relations put out by America about itself. LOL! There is no justice in the world either unless you can force it from others in one way or another. Human nature is not like that--not even in Africa. I say that because some AAs have such romantic notions about Africa. I had awonderful relationship with an African man and I think some aspects of African culture are great, but I've never had a wholesale romance with Africa or with ALL black people or with ALL white people, etc. People are far too complex for that type of binary thinking.

With a few operational nuances, I think we, as individual bw, need to get what we need to 'live well' and worry about fairness later, if at all. The thing is that no matter how you actually arrive at 'living well,' the world will soon forget how you got there and pat you on the back for simply getting there. LOL! Just look at lots of elite white families. No one dredges up the high crimes that some of their ancestors committed to get their original money. This is why I don't and won't ever subscribe to the majesty of the elites. It is documented that MOST of them did unspeakable things to get their money. Several generations from now, even rapper Fifty Cent (if he marries properly) may be fondly remembered like some of the forefathers of some of these elite clans. LOL!

I got over any anger I had at white people many years ago when it became crystal clear to me that AAs were forever going to be in a perpetual state of yakking about being mad at white folks and want other AAs to be mad at white folks too. This anger bonds some AAs together like nothing else.

So, I'm way past anger. I know that the only way the masses of AAs is going to rise is through vehicles like effective ORGANIZATIONS
(networks, clubs, instututions, companies,etc.) This is how ALL groups do it. But AAs hate organizations because that means they must be "disciplined" and "obligated." LOL! Many AAs hate the concept of obligation like the plague because the experience of AAs in this country has not included reciprocity from white. The cultures that other folks come from disciplines and obligates them to their group in certain ways and has penalties in place for violations. They have also built in large slabs of reciprocity. AAs have NOTHING like this in place, yet we're trying to compete as a group with other groups who have had these structures in place for hundreds of years. They may be invisible structures, but they're there. I've seen this as a result of living from day among other groups.

As the saying goes: "Living well is the best revenge." AA women can actually implement this NOW on an individual basis by 'marrying well.' MOST AA women have it within their power NOW to marry well because they possess the "female card" which is the absolutely most valuable card but they're so focused on what's going to happen to the po bm until they don't learn how to play that card. They therefore give it away for nothing or allow it to be devalued.

This is the main reason why AAs go into "white folks did it too" mode. AA women consider it as getting back at whites when they refuse to throw a vile creature like R. Kelly and other bm violators of bw to the dogs. It's the reason why those bw at the OJ trial didn't throw him to the dogs. When he made the public statement that "being with a black woman is like digging in mud," that IMO was enough to throw him to the hungriest dogs. For every other group of women, that would have been way more than enough. Period. But those bw on the jury were trying to get back at white folks by freeing him. It didn't matter to them that he had peed all over them and their daughters and was influencing other bm to do the same. Bw don't connect dots like that.

Ask yourself as a bw reading this whether you're ready and able to throw bm violators to the dogs? It does not matter WHY he's a violator. With maybe a few exceptions that should be decided on a case by case basis, we should be willing in 2009 to throw the other violators to the dogs. AAs cannot afford to harbor violators.

The BIGGEST problem is that AAs have no astute and committed leadership. All groups have leaders because they need them. Most people of all groups are followers.

To me as a bw, the Obamas are a pleasant distraction, mainly because of Michelle. I can't think of ANY policy that he could enact in the next 4 years that would make the craziness (based mainly on self-hate and lack of identity ) nor the magical thinking among AAs go away. Bw are not going to largely benefit from anything he does to ressurect bm because the majority of bm are NOT willing to value or invest in AA women. Whatever bm get, they will invest in themselves and in non-bw, for the most part. I don't think that a typical bm believes that a bw is worth valuing because bm have always gotten bw for cheap. IMO, in general, the story of AA woman and AA man is therefore over because there's too much concentrated damage there. I think that many men from other groups are willing to value a bw much more than a typical AA man.

The surreal aspect of this is that rarely if anywhere else do you read these types of discussions going on. So, we're just a few bw on a few blogs trying to address monumental issues that have global implications.

Khadija said...

*Warning: VERY Long Response! LOL!*

Greetings, Evia!

As usual, you're elevating the level of dialogue! Thank you!

You said, "I am in favor of some sort of 'sensible' reparations program from the government, but that's about it."

I agree. However, I KNOW that any form of reparations that came in cash would be back in non-Black hands (SUV dealerships, etc.) within 24 hours of our receipt of the money. Almost NONE of us would pool these resources (or use them) in a way to advance our lives. Instead, the bulk of us would buy trinkets. {sigh}

You said, "Other than that, there needs to be groups set up by blacks in every area so that blacks can work through their pain and healing about slavery and Jim Crow because that pain makes AAs act stupid and is very clearly destructive."

I believe that, in the long run, winning at the game of life is the only source of healing for these problems. There are a few individuals among us who are willing to work to become winners.

But the vast majority of AAs don't want to do the work required to become winners. We would rather do our traditional cry-baby routine instead.

You said, "I'm a pragmatist, a realist and a globalist. IMO, yesterday should be over if you're struggling to live today. You can't successfully deal with both at the same time."

Traditionally, we don't deal with either yesterday or today. Instead, we engage in cry-baby actions or political theater. I'm NOT advocating this, but let me point out that people who are SERIOUS about their people's grievances usually organize themselves to take physical revenge on whoever wronged them.

We've never done that, and we're not going to do that. Since we're not going to take revenge, then we need to shut up with the cry-babyism and the political performance art. And instead move on with becoming winners.

Even the Black Panthers that some of us celebrate as "revolutionaries" were involved in political performance art: When people are SERIOUS about revolution(like the IRA, etc.), they wear ski-masks. They DON'T parade around looking to become publicly known celebrities.

You said, "This is SO true and the world does NOT care. In essence, the world has moved on after thinking about AAs for a split second, if that long.

The world (including the bulk of folks in other groups of blacks too) does NOT care about white injustices towards AAs because white people (with all of their dastardly deeds) have set themselves up in the world to be able to FEED people and provide safety."


Exactly! The White collective has made itself NECESSARY to other people's survival. Whether these other people like it or not. There's a lesson for us to learn, if we would just wake up.

As Black people, AAs have direct access to more and better resources than any other Blacks on this planet or in history. In theory, we are best positioned (because of being born here instead of some other places) to make ourselves necessary to other people; and therefore influential. Instead, we whine.

You said, "AAs are not a special case in world history if we look closely at it, but lots of AAs are STUCK on what happened to us a few hundred years ago and its aftermath and this is the reason for discussions of this type. This wasn't fair to us but life has never been fair. Many AAs are naively stuck on "fairness."

I think AAs have swallowed the public relations put out by America about itself. LOL! There is no justice in the world either unless you can force it from others in one way or another."


Yes, the rest of world has long since gotten back to paying attention to other things. Our 15 minutes of fame has been over for quite a while. There won't be a "comeback" based upon more repetitions of our tired, played out, "woe is us" crybaby routine. The global audience is bored with that.

About "fairness": I'm amazed at the non-stop magical thinking that our people have embraced. Who ever said that life was fair? Who ever said that there were clear villians and angels? Real life does NOT operate like that. Real life is not fair; and most situations and people operate within "shades of gray."

For example, as much as we whine about how we were done wrong, history shows that we were WILLING accomplices in helping White folks STEAL from the Native Americans. You know, the "Buffalo soldiers" that AAs are taught to blindly celebrate. Shades of gray.

And let's not weep uncontrollably for the Native American nations. Some of them held our ancestors as slaves, like the Cherokee Nation. (Who currently are NOT treating their Black kin very well---just google Cherokee Freedmen for the details.) More shades of gray.

AAs need to grow up mentally.

You said, "With a few operational nuances, I think we, as individual bw, need to get what we need to 'live well' and worry about fairness later, if at all. The thing is that no matter how you actually arrive at 'living well,' the world will soon forget how you got there and pat you on the back for simply getting there."

Yep. People like winners. After a few generations of winning, most other people are not going to scrutinize how a winning family became winners in the first place. Just look at the Kennedy clan! LOL!

You said, "As the saying goes: "Living well is the best revenge." AA women can actually implement this NOW on an individual basis by 'marrying well.' MOST AA women have it within their power NOW to marry well because they possess the "female card" which is the absolutely most valuable card but they're so focused on what's going to happen to the po bm until they don't learn how to play that card. They therefore give it away for nothing or allow it to be devalued."

Exactly.

You said, "This is the main reason why AAs go into "white folks did it too" mode. AA women consider it as getting back at whites when they refuse to throw a vile creature like R. Kelly and other bm violators of bw to the dogs. It's the reason why those bw at the OJ trial didn't throw him to the dogs.

...But those bw on the jury were trying to get back at white folks by freeing him. It didn't matter to them that he had peed all over them and their daughters and was influencing other bm to do the same. Bw don't connect dots like that."


This kind of behavior will lead to sorrow, suffering, and ultimately death for those BW who persist in it. As well as for their helpless children.

You said (with emphasis added by me), "To me as a bw, the Obamas are a pleasant distraction, mainly because of Michelle. I can't think of ANY policy that he could enact in the next 4 years that would make the craziness (based mainly on self-hate and lack of identity ) nor the magical thinking among AAs go away.

Bw are not going to largely benefit from anything he does to ressurect bm because the majority of bm are NOT willing to value or invest in AA women. Whatever bm get, they will invest in themselves and in non-bw, for the most part. I don't think that a typical bm believes that a bw is worth valuing because bm have always gotten bw for cheap."


Well, there it is right there. This is the bottom line reality about the mostly non-existent "Black love."

You said, "The surreal aspect of this is that rarely if anywhere else do you read these types of discussions going on. So, we're just a few bw on a few blogs trying to address monumental issues that have global implications.".

I see it as a matter of saving one life at a time. By helping BW to help (and therefore) rescue themselves. Most BW have the traits necessary for this; as you've said repeatedly "most BW will do better when they know better." The core problem is that BW are spending their time and energy on people who are not giving reciprocity.

What I've seen (including myself as an example) is that once the primary "spell" is broken, there is usually as very fast turnaround with BW!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Greetings, Khadija!

I am happy to see that you are addressing this issue because I have encountered it in my blog forum quite often.

"White women have this issue too..." and "white women do that..."

ENOUGH!

When Oscar Grant was killed in a subway station, how many black bloggers mentioned that he was a career criminal who was fighting on the train on New Year's Eve which was why he had the attention of the train security force in the first place?!

"He didn't deserve to die like a dog!" they screamed.

No he did not. The other train passengers did not deserve to have to be subject to the shenanigans of ghetto thugs on the train either.

No one mentions that the other train passengers were violated by the presence of this thug and his "too live" crew who were fighting. We rush to try and defend menaces to society.

It must cease!

I kept reading how his family said he was trying to change his life. Well... he wasn't trying hard ENOUGH if he was fighting on the darn train. I take trains all the time and somehow I manage to sit in my sit quietly and get to my destination without incident or fighting. Surely, others can do the same.

Hmmmmph.

ENOUGH! with defending stupidity and lawlessness from our own people. If the punishment does not fit the crime, we often decide to scream about the injustice of the punishment rather than lament the recurrence of dysfunctional and criminal behavior by irresponsible black men who somehow do not realize that the police views them as disposable trash.

In our grandparents' generation, there was an understanding that there were risks involved with certain behaviors. There are plenty of black men who continue to look, act and dress like thugs and then become indignant when they are receiving hostile police attention.

ENOUGH!

Oscar Grant is not a martyr who is worthy of sainthood and he did not die as a hero. He was a career criminal who died because of police brutality who would not have encountered police if he had sat in his darn seat with his mouth shut until he reached his destination. He chose not to do that and his choice not to do that had consequences that he did not anticipate.

I am only using that as an example since it is fresh in the minds of many people and our reaction to that murder speaks to this insane focus on turning thugs into martyrs.

I don't care if one of the persons who distributed the racist newsletter at Princeton Seminary was black and the others were white. It was still racist and malicious and the president issued a statement with that specific language. All deserve punishment.

How interesting that these ignorant whites thought that our tune would change when they mentioned one of the fools was black.

I hope I have not veered off topic by mentioning this.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

Greetings, Lisa!

About the Princeton racists:

Oh no, you're not veering off topic about the Princeton racists. In their own way, they have inadvertently been helpful---they've provided several important "teachable moments."

You said, "I don't care if one of the persons who distributed the racist newsletter at Princeton Seminary was black and the others were white. It was still racist and malicious and the president issued a statement with that specific language. All deserve punishment.

How interesting that these ignorant whites thought that our tune would change when they mentioned one of the fools was black."


Yes, that was interesting. It showed how deeply they had bought into their own false characterizations of our struggle in that instance. Yep. Calling for justice across the board truly throws racists off their game.

About Oscar Grant:

As I said on your blog, I don't care about him, or what happened to him. I'm sad to hear of it in a generalized sort of way; like I'm sad to hear of deaths and suffering overseas.

I'm practicing reciprocity. I've come to a point of mirror image apathy regarding Black men's issues. Since Black men are apathetic about the numerous rapes and murders of Black women and Black children in Black residential areas, then I am apathetic about them being shot down. Whether it's by other BM or by the police.

My only concern about that issue is to make sure that I'm not in the crossfire.

I will also point out that the bulk of BM don't care about their own physical survival. Or that of Black children, including Black boys. The mass mutual slaughter of BM by other BM is what makes the police slaughter possible.

The vast majority of BM do not lift a finger to engage in activities or programs to help "save" other BM or Black boys. Instead, they look to BW to carry all of those burdens. Not me. That's a project for BM. BM can accept or continue to reject participation in that project. I'm out of that.

My response to the "Oscar Grant (The Idiot Thug) Didn't Deserve to be Shot Down" Argument:

You said, "In our grandparents' generation, there was an understanding that there were risks involved with certain behaviors. There are plenty of black men who continue to look, act and dress like thugs and then become indignant when they are receiving hostile police attention."

EXACTLY! What ever happened to common sense? As far as I'm concerned, Oscar Grant offered himself up as a human sacrifice by engaging in those behaviors. By engaging in those behaviors, he assumed the risks associated with eliciting hostile police attention.

This issue is very similar to how I respond to those who are whining about double standards regarding the punishment of Black criminals:

Our people have been [rightly] complaining for decades about racism & inequity in various institutions. This means that we are on notice about the existence of racism and inequity in these various instituttions.

I am NOT saying that we should accept these inequities.

I AM saying that, given that we know about the inequities, Black criminals have therefore assumed the risk of heavier penalties being imposed on them if they get caught.

Given that we've been [rightly] complaining about racism & inequities for decades, we really can't play shocked when we put themselves in a position to have the full weight of it fall on our heads. We don't get to "play the nut role" when what we've been complaining about comes to pass due to our own actions.

You said, "Oscar Grant is not a martyr who is worthy of sainthood and he did not die as a hero. He was a career criminal who died because of police brutality who would not have encountered police if he had sat in his darn seat with his mouth shut until he reached his destination. He chose not to do that and his choice not to do that had consequences that he did not anticipate."

Absolutely correct.

Lisa, do you notice how selective Black folks are when it comes to abandoning common sense? Somehow, we know better than to do things that increase the odds of eliciting hostile attention from armed drug dealers!

But then we want to play "brand new" when it comes to racist police that we've been whining (and periodically rioting) about for over 40 years!

ENOUGH ALREADY! I refuse to play along with this nonsense anymore.

Police brutality is always evil and cowardly. But even police brutality and murder is an indirect result of BM's general apathy, weakness and cowardice [including the criminal class]. Do you notice that White mafia guys DON'T have police brutality problems?

This is because the police aren't that brave. They know that if they do something like that with the mob guys, those men will kill them AND their families.

Let's get real about the TRUE dynamics of these police brutality situations. The police feel free to do whatever they want with BM because they know that BM will NEVER raise their hands to retaliate. Including the BM wanna-play-like-gangsters who are so quick to shoot and kill each other!

Ummm...No. Those White Italian and Russian mafia men (who are scum) are the REAL gangsters. Negro criminals are just cheap, weak imitations of the real thing.


Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymous said...

Felicia chiming in here.

I came across some interesting commentary regarding Oscar Grant and wanted to share... (I tell ya'll as a S.F. Bay area native I'm SO happy to be AWAY from that area for numerous reasons)

Personally, my mind is free from caring about such individuals as Oscar Grant on any level for good reason. Plus I practice reciprocity and know damn well that if I Heaven forbid were the victim of a thug not ONE of these "concerned" (excuse making) protesters who were busy tearing up businesses (many black owned) in their own damned neighborhoods would lift a finger to help me less more protest/riot on my behalf.

I care (or don't care) for others to the exact same degree that they care (or don't care) for me and mine.

That's fair and just.

So those "outraged" are on my I don't give a damn about and good riddance list too.

My feeling is whatever happens happens to folks who put themselves in harms way.

And acting a fool/drawing attention to yourself already knowing FULL well the history of this country - AND the present situation - and that there are cops out there just itching to put you down is what I consider putting yourself in harms way.

Stupid behavior can bring about stupid (and sometimes deadly) consequences.

Fair? Maybe not but black folks of all folks should KNOW by now that life is often NOT fair.

So why tempt fate?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-01-09/a-rage-in-oakland/

(It's a three page article so be sure to go to the above address for the full story)

A RAGE IN OAKLAND

Why both parties refuse to stop black-on-black crime.
A few nights ago, there was a riot in Oakland, California, in response to the shooting death of an unarmed black man by a transit police officer. Yes, there was a cause but the violence got out of hand as violence almost always does in these situations. Cars were set afire, business windows smashed, and one young black woman seen on CNN said that people were rioting because they live in a state of terror and wanted to make others feel terror, too. Different people said that they were tired of black males being murdered by the police. They should be tired whenever it is murder, or such irresponsibly excessive force that it might as well be. But there is something else.
While black people scream, chant, and holler about killer cops, the central cause of death among black males is not excessive police action. There is however plenty of chilling documentation that proves we have among us a national slaughterhouse—the roller coaster numbers of black people, especially males, killed by other black males. In Oakland, black homicides number ten times those of other ethnic groups and are, shockingly, closer to the average oppression by black crime across our country than they are anachronisms.
The left has an understandable but irrational hatred of law enforcement that obscures what is a clear and present danger to the lives of American citizens.
A sociologist named James Fox from Northeastern University has just released a study called "The Recent Surge in Homicides Involving Young Black Males and Guns: Time to Reinvest in Prevention and Crime Control." Uh oh. The mere suggestion that our society should invest in the prevention of murder and crime in black communities from coast to coast is thought reprehensible by those on the left and the right. When Barack Obama said that it was time for the brothers to pull their pants up, he could add that it is also time for those who purport to think about urban problems to open up their eyes and ears so that they can see that the ambulances arriving after the bullets fly are not the siren songs of mythic tales and those put on the stretchers or in the body bags are not play-acting in a perpetual Halloween slaughter. They are the ugly details of the real deal.
Though these homicides have continued to pile up over the last two decades, the crisis has largely been ignored by the civil rights establishment, our Marxist university professors who fat-mouth past the facts, our white liberals who remain as lame as ever, and, finally, way over on the other side, the hard core social and fiscal conservatives who usually stand mute on the issue (a brilliant exception being Heather Mac Donald of the Manhattan Institute). The social and fiscal conservatives should be alarmed by—if nothing else—the billions this country has to pay for the murders, the rehabilitation, the mutilations, the disability, the psychological trauma, and so on. But no: whether on the left or the right, they are all pigs at a trough of clich├ęs.
But James Fox has a stump to fit their rumps. His study of national crime statistics shows that, as Daily News columnist Errol Louis wrote in New York, "the number of black male youngsters who were murder victims rose by 31 percent between 2002 and 2007—and the number of black juvenile murder perpetrators jumped "43 percent.” The report also says that this was "consistently true for every region of the country."
The left has an understandable but irrational hatred of law enforcement that obscures what is a clear and present danger to the lives of American citizens. The hatred is rooted in the civil rights and antiwar movements of the 1960s as well as the inarguable excessive force and Keystone Kop level of police work that has jailed some innocent black people. (When I taught a black literature course in the penitentiary in California, all of my students described themselves as "political prisoners" until I asked how many of them were serving time for crimes that they did not commit. None raised their hands. By political prisoners they explained that they meant they lacked the money to hire the kinds of lawyers that got those white crooks off. There you go.)

Khadija said...

Greetings, Felicia!

Yep. Black women and children who are murdered by BM are simply so many "shrimps on the barbie" as far as the so-called Black community is concerned.

It's really quite schizophrenic: We'll make elaborate street shrines of where Black children are killed (marked with flowers, teddy bears, etc.). And yet out of the other side of our mouths, we will scream in support of Black killers going unpunished.

The points made in the article you cited are correct. Even if it was written by Stanley Crouch. {feh!}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Tam said...

I am so glad this conversation has turned to the topic of BM criminals dying by the hands of the police.

I live in the Cleveland area, and about three years ago a young male was killed by the police. This male was about 19 years old and trying to out run the cops in a stolen vehicle. As he made his way up the street driving at top speed he did not pull over. The car went out of control and he crashed his car into a house. After the crash his "passenger" surrendered without fail (showing his hands and assuming the position) Not so, for the driver. He decided he was going to grab a gun stashed on or below the seat. The officer saw this action and shot him.

The BM was shot by a White police officer. Now you can only imagine the We Shall Overcome speeches. The community activists, the preachers and OMG, the teddy bear memorials.

It turns out the young man was a father with another on the way.

This story is tragic on so many levels. 1. Because they had a candlelight vigil for the male. 2. Because he left two children without a father (although I believe he did that before his demise) 3. The people on the street who saw it said the male did try to surrender. I was not there, however I highly doubt it. Why did his compatriot walk away while he was wheeled away? 4. The women who were there for the memorial were more vocal about his demise than the males. The males stood there with their heads hung low and their do rags on tight.

The one funny in an ironic way was one of the community activists, who happened to be a WW. She was ranting about how the evil police are killing all the BMs in Cleveland. Prior to this there were about 3 other BM / Police killings in the city.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Tam!

You said, "The women who were there for the memorial were more vocal about his demise than the males. The males stood there with their heads hung low and their do rags on tight."

But hasn't THIS become our standard operating procedure? Black women are the bulk of the voices and marching feet responding to this particular Black male issue.

As I have previously mentioned, BW are the majority of the foot soldiers for Black organizations such as the NAACP, Rev. Sharpton's NAN, etc. BW are the main ones propping up the very same organizations that actively defend BM who attack BW, and ignore BW's interests!

This behavior pattern is crazy, and has become downright suicidal in terms of BW's and Black girls' interests.


[The only Black organization that (I can think of that) doesn't have a majority of BW foot soldiers is the Nation of Islam.]

BW need to STOP supporting ANY person or entity that does not support their interests. Period. Demand reciprocity now!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

shocol said...

I AM saying that, given that we know about the inequities, Black criminals have therefore assumed the risk of heavier penalties being imposed on them if they get caught.

I've never understood this. Why do we pretend that we don't know who and what is waiting for Black criminals when they get caught? Continually defending BM criminals, regardless of the crime, makes it appear that we only care that they got caught.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Shocol!

You said, "I've never understood this."

I don't understand it either. It's senseless.

You said, "Why do we pretend that we don't know who and what is waiting for Black criminals when they get caught?"

I don't get this either. It seems to me that anyone with half a brain who still cared about young Black males' physical survival would STOP going along with this mass charade. This mass charade enables idiots like Oscar Grant to persist in the false belief that it's safe to "clown" in public.

You said, "Continually defending BM criminals, regardless of the crime, makes it appear that we only care that they got caught."

Exactly. This is NOT a good look politically. It makes the AA collective look like one giant support network for criminals.

I dissent from all of that madness.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Foxycleopatra said...

(When I taught a black literature course in the penitentiary in California, all of my students described themselves as "political prisoners" until I asked how many of them were serving time for crimes that they did not commit. None raised their hands. By political prisoners they explained that they meant they lacked the money to hire the kinds of lawyers that got those white crooks off. There you go.)

----------------------------
Even pple in the bc would support this notion of these low-lifes (sic) being 'political prisoners'. It is as if a bm can be excused from any wrong doing in the bc. Just look at who the naacp and rev. hot comb initially labelled 'victims' in the dunbar village case!

I was once watching a fox news clip of the hannity and colmes show on youtube were a black pastor labelled black pple as having 'no moral fibre' and being 'morally reprehensible'. I got so offended at this. When I think of it now, although the guy was quite obviously a racist, was his comment really untrue? In refernce to the bc, I don't think so.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Foxycleopatra!

Let me remind everyone (ESPECIALLY our foreign cousins who NEVER lived under Jim Crow in the US) that this "rally around the accused criminals" response didn't just drop out of the sky. It was the result of VERY REAL injustices that were done to AA people.

This response made sense in the context of the Scottsboro boys and Rosa Parks. If you (or a relative) weren't here to experience all of that (and the lynchings that accompanied these times), then you're not in a position to readily understand where this response came from.

For most AA families, these sorts of atrocities are within the living memories of our elders. They aren't just distant fables from a history book. That is why these "unjust legal system" scenarios are so emotionally charged for many AAs.

I would suggest that you remember that while you are judging us and our responses.

My best friend's grandfather founded the Chicago church where Emmett Till's funeral was held after he was lynched while visiting relatives down South.

It might be helpful if you googled Emmett Till and took a look at his picture from his open-casket viewing. Just so you can see what this little boy looked like after he was murdered.

Just so you can see for yourself a small part of where this "rally around the accused" response came from.

This picture was featured in Black newspapers and magazines around the country.

Most AA elders who were pre-teens or older at the time Emmett Till was lynched saw that picture. Many later generations of AA parents made sure that their children saw that picture to ensure that everyone was perfectly clear about what Jim Crow really meant.

My parents made sure that I saw that picture when I was a pre-teen. That picture put my Granddaddy's stories of his life before moving North into crystal clear context.


Times have changed; and this response has become dysfunctional in current circumstances.

Peace, blessings, solidarity.