Monday, March 9, 2009

Comment Overflow for the Post, "If You're Not On One of These 10 Roads to Riches, You're Heading Toward the Poorhouse"

*Reader's Note* We're transferring our discussion from the 3/2/09 post, "If You're Not On One of These 10 Roads to Riches, You're Heading Toward the Poorhouse" to the comment section here. [I don't like having the scroll down miles of computer screen to read new comments, and we've reached almost 100 comments in the comment section of that particular post.] Please post your comments to the "Roads to Riches" post right here. Thank you.

87 comments:

Evia said...

Wow, Khadija, now you're experiencing what it's like to have a very popular blog. It's work!! LOL!

(From the previous thread's comments)
Re:
The harsh reality is that if it was left up to the "community standards" of the Black masses in the US (and from what I'm reading, the UK), BW would be living like the women in the Congo and Afghanistan.

Obviously many AA women just find this too painful to face, but as you've stated Khadija, the chief function of bw in most black communities is to function as the HOST for parasites and as I've warned: another function of black girls and bw is to be the sitting prey for the predators. Reciprocity is an alien concept among AAs when it comes to interacting with bw. Any bw who lets it be clearly known that she absolutely refuses to be a HOST or prey is considered a threat and is pounced on by MOST AA males and many bw and called: a traitor, a sellout, not supportive of the 'brothas,' forgot where she came from, acting white, and when all of those fail to make a dent, she is called a FEMINIST. LOL! I'm just amazed at the super-intelligent bw who will meekly get back into her place when she's called a 'feminist.' SMH

Maybe this is due to deep-seated anger/envy towards the feminist movemement and ww ? I don't quite understand that because I apparently don't view ww the way some bw do. I've had a few unpleasant experiences with ww, but I don't view them negatively as a group. The ONLY reason why ww are in the good-better-best position they're in IS because of wm. If the vast majority of bw had men who viewed us as vital to their group's future and who elevated us the way ww are elevated by the BULK of wm, we'd be in a good-better-best position TOO. This is why I URGE as many individual bw as possible to marry strategically and/or marry well.

When ww marry well-positioned (rich, influential) or well-employed bm, these women are marrying strategically or well or both. They're mainly marrying those men so that their 'living well' status and that of their children will rise. There are only so many rich or well-positioned wm, so ww see rich/influential/well-employed bm as ANOTHER territory, ANOTHER source, ANOTHER pool of men or another way to accomplish their objective. White people have historically been explorers who were willing to travel to find the resources they need and want. They haven't been socialized to stay in one place and starve. And these women know they can out-compete the average bw for those wealthy bm because they KNOW that a typical bm craves lighter-whiter women. I honestly can't blame those women for using what they have to get what they want.

Asian women are known to do the same thing. I don't see a reason to be angry at or envious towards any of these women. Bw should be doing the SAME thing. Individual bw should be using what they have to get what they want instead of being mad at non-bw. This is why Khadija keeps talking about becoming flawless. I can't understand why some of y'all can't embrace that and run with it. It's common sense. You've got to sharpen your pick ax to dig out the gold. It's not the fault of these other women that bw have chosen to stay stuck up under mostly parasitic or predator po-behind, struggling bm. It's not their fault that so many bw fell for the okey doke and went around screaming "Nothing but a bm" which has in effect cut off escape routes for many of their daughters.

I, likewise, chose to separate myself from the parasites and predators early in my life, and lo and behold, I discovered that more than a few bw were/are angry at and envious of me!

Isn't bw's anger mostly at themselves for being so easily conned and so easily used? Isn't it more a case of bw ***projecting*** their self-anger onto other women (of whatever skin shade) who've played their cards better?

Some one mentioned wm not throwing their women under the bus. Well some have and are getting into IR relationships/marriages like it is going out of style. Many middle aged wm are remarrying with Asian women. Some of these men had bitter divorces and are looking for something new and different.

Just because wm marry aw and bw doesn't mean they have removed their investment from ww. This cannot be assumed. White people cannot continue without ww. White people are still a good investment for wm. I would think that only wm who hate white people would totally remove their investment from ww. Likewise, when I was married to my Nigerian husband, I knew that he was still HEAVILY vested in HIS ethnic group. I respected that. Likewise, I would still be heavily invested in my group if my group was a good investment, but all indicators show clearly that it's not. We cannot overlook the fact that the bulk of AA males are damaged and/or many of the ones who could or can, have pulled away from AAs. I think lots of bw WANT to forget that. But this is why I advocate to bw: "Get off the sinking ship." When I was younger, I was a vehement "black power" advocate, but this would be beyond crazy at this point.

I have adopted former Mayor of Chicago's creed: "I don't have permanent friends or permanent enemies; I have permanent interests." And Khadija, I think this could be our motto for the new brand because this creed would keep everyone on their toes, constantly vetting others.

Sensible people and institutions don't invest money into DEAD and DYING things. There comes a point when they "pull the plug."

Exactly! Sensible people look at the social INDICATORS just like doctors look at a dying person's vital signs and realize that without divine intervention, the thing or person is dead. And as that song by Kenny Rogers says: "You've got to know when to hold em (cards), know when to fold em, know when to walk away, and know when to run."

It's past running time y'all. And those of us who can run or have already run need to re-brand because as we said in the previous thread, the ABC (acting black crew) are going to be always try to remain attached to us and expect us to sustain and protect them, but will continue to arrogantly refuse to change their ways.

Aphrodite said...

Hello PVW,


" The Moynihan report argued that the "strong black woman" stereotype was pathological, but some black folks were trying to take a perverse pride in a "strength" which only harmed black women.

Nonetheless, the reality is that black women have experienced both race-based and sex-based discrimination."


You know after reading through your post a few times and taking it all in and then looking at the messages that BW have gotten to lower expectations I am so enraged. I mean I have been here and gathered all of this information intellectually, but I just realized this emotionally and it feels like having the mess slapped out of me.


I can think of instances in the recent past where BW who would dare to say aloud that they have x,y,z expectations for relationships/marriages were ripped to shreds by men and given perverted messages by other BW that justified/normalized the suffering they were supposed to go through.


I am so beside myself. A part of me wants to say that Black people can't be that stupid/crazy, but I am seeing/have experienced this craziness so I know it is happening.


This is so enraging and disturbing to me for legions and generations of women to go out and face threats and issues from outside their community (in the past the overt historical things that happened) and to realize you are getting the same thing inside your house - if not worse.

I am wondering if people even see BW as human? And history has shown what people can do to groups of people when they don't see them as human.


I am just overwhelmed and feeling particularly hateful right now.


Not that I am or was the type, but I am wondering how can any BW think that Black Love or anything of that nature can be alive or saved or that the BC can be resurrected - with those kinds of evil beliefs systems ingrained in Black Culture??


You are right Khadija, it must all be demonic.
-------------------------------------

March 8, 2009 12:22 PM
Blogger DeStouet said...


" Which is one of the REAL reasons that AA women need to get out more because divorce is so common. People change spouses like they change their undies. When one no longer fits their needs they simply get a divorce and go to the next.

In the year and a half that I've lived on the west coast, I've met over two dozen women who are now on their second and third marriage. No shame. No guilt. Just a new pair of sunglasses, and a brand new handbag.

As a matter of fact, I've read several articles that focused on the fact that most divorced women are now opting to stay single. The women in these articles were talking about how they felt born again, how they felt set free and something in them had been unleashed."


I have noticed that too in Cali, but it seems like other women know how to benefit so that after the divorce they are better off than before. If I could fit all my worldly wealth into a giant hefty bag before marriage, but afterwards I had a business, home that was paid for, cars, and some amazing alimony - I would "feel free and born again too." :)
-------------------------------------

" What BW need to understand RIGHT NOW is that the past is prologue! What has happened before will happen again. Just under the new management of Latinos and Asian political overlords.

You said, "To be brutal, as you're saying, the ONLY thing that the underclass poor has that keeps them from being rounded up, penned up, sterilized, used for their organs and medical research, etc. is middle class SANE blacks and the whites who still believe in the Constitution."



So in looking at the economy this type of info is all the more important as the middle class is the shrinking class and the pool of the poor/working class is growing.
-------------------------------------

Re : Evia's post

" We have been manipulated, emotionally mauled, manhandled, bamboozled, indoctrinated, and controlled. No one else listens to bm or gives a rat's behind about them. And they know this, so it's vital to them to keep hooks into AA women. So what you've described are the emotional and political hooks used to keep AA women loyal to AA men and attached to them. They're still using various hooks. Black women should be extremely wary of these various hooks.

We have to always keep in mind that many bm view bw as their property of sorts, the only thing they've ever been able to control. They will therefore fight to the end and do whatever they need to do to hang onto us--even though many of them regard AA women with disdain."



What does this "hanging on" look like on an individual level?

I can envision it on a larger scale bc that is how a lot of it is going on right now. From the historical perspective that PVW gave, to the stuff that is spewed in many religious orgs, political arenas etc...


" I think that THE critical difference between what ww have "accomplished" in this regard and what bw have not been able to accomplish is not due to ww's shrewdness or savvy, but because the bulk of wm are vested in ww. They won't beat their women down because they know that their line is not going to continue or will be at risk if their women are beaten down. I think this is often overlooked."



I have never thought of or considered that. In a patriarchal society men could decide that they are not hearing/having any 'feminism' so in order for WW to be successful with this - they had to have WM's approval/cooperation etc- ok I can get that.


" AA women are in a precarious position, unlike these other women. This is why it's SO important for AA women to marry strategically and marry well. To marry simply for love is not a luxury that most AA women can afford."


That is definitely putting it bluntly. I wish I had heard that sooner.
-------------------------------------

JaliliMaster said...

" And I think this is part of where this whole notion that we should 'embrace' suffering(while no one else is expected to), is, in part, due to slavery. As if to say, if they had to do it, we shouldn't complain, aferall, what we experience is nothing compred to what they did. I once heard an older Black woman tell a younger one to stop complaining about hardship and embrace other peoples burdens as our foremothers had to!!!"


I have come across this attitude many many times. It is ridiculous and always given as a reason to suck it up and endure even when the situation is unjust and you are being taken advantage of and abused.

Also I think that you made the comment about the finishing school-great idea. I think girls should be recruited at much younger ages. I would say 5-6. If only you knew what some 5 years olds were being exposed to.


"And let's be honest, as bad as the situation already is, we know things would be MUCH worse for Black women if it was the Black community(or more accurately, bm) that made up the laws concerning issues such as sexual violence, domestic vioulence, etc."


So true.
-------------------------------------

Hi Anon

" Has anyone else notice stores and services or products disappearing in your communities too?"


If you are losing that many businesses and services then I would be looking for my way out. I am relating decline to crime and police presence. I don't know if you are in an urban or rural area, but I would think about relocating - it doesn't sound safe.
-------------------------------------

@PVW

"there were young black men who were quite clear that any discussion of sexism had nothing to do with them, ie. why should men care about it, since they are not women.

I could see the shock on the faces of some of the young white men upon hearing those sorts of statements. They had been raised by their mothers, that sexism is their problem, because their mothers, sisters, future wives and daughters will be affected.

This message was reinforced by their sisters and girlfriends who were not afraid to engage in discussions with them about what they need and what they believe their interests to be.

They were not "hopelessly male identified," as Joan Morgan put it, meaning that they did not see the world through the perspectives of men (as many black women might tend to do, talk about the community's problems only in light of black men's interests), but through their perspectives and experiences as women.

Now I'm not presuming that there were no sexist young white men, but they knew that in a room full of their sisters, they were to mind their manners, and they knew fully well that the most vocal ones would "tear them another" if they even dared going there...."



I am not surprised.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Evia, reposting from the previous one:

Sensible people and institutions don't invest money into DEAD and DYING things. There comes a point when they "pull the plug."

My reply:

Exactly! The evidence is already there. Didn't the last census indicate that Latinos already outnumber blacks, and that in the future they will comprise an even greater portion of the population?

Aren't they already making headway into various communities in the South, where blacks traditionally had a significant presence? What does that say? The black population is not estimated to increase by much. So these companies are preparing for the future.

Aphrodite:

I am wondering if people even see BW as human? And history has shown what people can do to groups of people when they don't see them as human.

My reply:

Nothing wrong with the anger. In anger, this is power! Power to get the motivation to do something!

Oh, they know black women are human. They, the white racists and the sexist black men just see black women as being an inferior type, to be controlled while they uplift themselves. Zora Neale Hurston argued in the 1920s/1930s that black women were "the mules of the earth..."

Aphrodite:

What does this "hanging on" look like on an individual level?

My reply:

In what individual black women will be told by enabling black women or black men: "You're suffering, but hold on, things will get better, don't judge, lest you be judged, think of your reward in heaven, hang in to save the family, troubles don't last...."

Aphrodite:

I have never thought of or considered that. In a patriarchal society men could decide that they are not hearing/having any 'feminism' so in order for WW to be successful with this - they had to have WM's approval/cooperation etc- ok I can get that.

My reply:

But don't forget though, that it did not all come easy. Certain battles might have been easier, in that they could appeal to white male protectionism, but on other fronts, it was also a brutal "family" fight, for white women to get suffrage, and for white women to gain various of the rights of the 70s.

And when they won, they celebrated in sisterhood. They got respect for their courage and that of their brothers who admired them, and told the others who did not approve, where they could go.

They were not afraid to organize and pull out all the stops, because they were that determined. They were not afraid to declare war on their brothers to get what they were determined to have.

For example, I just saw recently an exhibit about women in the building trades, where the art installation talked about the serious issues women faced in the trades in the 1970s and 1980s.

This was not just about white women, but about black women too, those trying to get out of poverty and into more lucrative working-class employment.

Think of the value of this: education for the community, ensuring their perspectives are presented, and in the light they find most desirable to themselves, so that others might say in response, "those sexist men, what Neanderthals..."

Regarding the young black men in my classes--It was beyond ridiculous. I had to do remedial home training 101, to remind these man-children that they might have obligations to call out the sexism that affects the women who could be their mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives and daughters.

Anonymous said...

Ladies what do you think about the re-brand DVW(Divested Black Women). The word divest means to free or get rid. We are slowly divesting from the all black communities, dating only black men, selling our selves short, and being overlooked. I think most black women are still trying to get a grip on all of this. it took me a 6 months to full understand and deprogram myself.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Evia:

Maybe this is due to deep-seated anger/envy towards the feminist movemement and ww?

My reply:

With the rise of the women's movement, the mainstream fixated upon the more radical type of feminist and branded that type as representative of all feminists: man haters, lesbians, unnatural, etc., etc.

So for black women eager to appeal to black men and fearful of being rejected by the community, the feminist label put them back into their box.

This can happen to white women too, and I have heard it among my students--believing the feminist label always means something negative.

Because white women have already gotten so many gains, in the eyes of many younger women, feminism seems to be all about those crazy older women (now in their 50s, 60s and 70s) who they have been led to believe are so radical--lesbians, manhaters, etc.

But many white women don't even need the feminist label anymore to get what they want. The issue of their treatment in society, the protection of their rights, has become so mainstream as not to be much of an issue anymore, it is a given. Would that be the case with black women in the black community.

Evia said...

So for black women eager to appeal to black men and fearful of being rejected by the community, the feminist label put them back into their box.

This right here is the clincher--bw always trying to appeal to and satisfy bm and a community that doesn't give a blip about trying to appeal to us. I have personally never been of that type.

This is why RECIPROCITY is so critical. It must be one of the main principles of the re-branding philosophy. Other than that, many bw will take cover under the new brand and still be thinking the same old way.

Girl! How could bw have been so duped by males they lived with everyday???? It makes me realize that it wasn't just the males though--who did this to bw. It was also or mainly other bw (mothers, sisters, girlfriends and the church too, which is made up mostly of bw). Bw play a major role in the oppression of other bw. I just wonder whether there were ANY bw that didn't fall for this hype. I'd love to read her writings from that time. It also makes me wonder what new con is being used on bw NOW that bw of the future will be shocked that bw of today fell for.

Hmmmm, what new (and old) piece of devastation is it that bm and the bc are telling bw that other bw are also pushing on bw and black girls NOW?

One thing for sure that I know is going to happen is that when the number of IR-married bw passes the number of IR-married bm, the WHOLE black community and bm are going to start pleading with bw to "come back home." It'll be everywhere! Some bm are ALREADY totally disregarding the fact that IR-bm almost double the IR-married bw (according to the last Census), yet these male are already having conniption fits about how "ALL" of us bw are marrying wm. LOL!! I received a note from a bm recently who was just beside himself about that and was using his entire vocabulary to appeal to me to stop encouraging bw to date and marry out and to not "give up on the 'brothas.'" SMH I may stick portions of his note into my next essay.

So, y'all had better brace yourselves. I know that the CCBC is going to use every emotional weapon in the book to appeal to AA women to leave non-bm alone and give the po brothamen a chance. LOL!!!!!!!

I tell ya--this disregard for the welfare of bw is so monumental until it's just surreal. But bw must NEVER forget this time and how bm are crowing and virtually gloating about their surge in popularity now and pushing that in the face of AA women. What other animal aside from the elephant is known to not forget? That animal should be the mascot of the re-branded group.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Evia!

This blog only has whatever popularity it has due to the support and "link love" from heavy-hitters like you, Rev. Lisa, and others! LOL! I'm honored and thankful for all of your support, encouragement, and guidance.

You said, "I'm just amazed at the super-intelligent bw who will meekly get back into her place when she's called a 'feminist.' SMH

Maybe this is due to deep-seated anger/envy towards the feminist movemement and ww ? I don't quite understand that because I apparently don't view ww the way some bw do."


I believe the reason for this is that many BW secretly feel that the "feminist" label is a thinly-veiled code word for "maybe she's a lesbian." And Lord knows how bigoted against gays and lesbians most Black folks are, including BW. So, we're deathly afraid of anything that might lead to being slapped with that label.

You said, "White people have historically been explorers who were willing to travel to find the resources they need and want. They haven't been socialized to stay in one place and starve."

Yes. This "stay and die" pattern is what most BW are currently doing within Black residential areas.

You said, "Just because wm marry aw and bw doesn't mean they have removed their investment from ww. This cannot be assumed. White people cannot continue without ww. White people are still a good investment for wm. I would think that only wm who hate white people would totally remove their investment from ww."

You're right. Some people are making the same mental fallacy as I did earlier in this conversation: They're projecting Black behavior patterns onto non-Black people. When WM select a non-White woman, it's usually NOT a renunciation of WW. It's NOT parallel to what Negroes are doing when they select a non-Black woman.

You said, "Likewise, I would still be heavily invested in my group if my group was a good investment, but all indicators show clearly that it's not. We cannot overlook the fact that the bulk of AA males are damaged and/or many of the ones who could or can, have pulled away from AAs. I think lots of bw WANT to forget that. But this is why I advocate to bw: "Get off the sinking ship."

Yes. Before it's too late to get off, and you drown with the bulk of AAs.

You said, "I have adopted former Mayor of Chicago's creed: "I don't have permanent friends or permanent enemies; I have permanent interests." And Khadija, I think this could be our motto for the new brand because this creed would keep everyone on their toes, constantly vetting others."

I agree. In addition to a name for our emerging philosophy, I've also been thinking about a declaration of principles. This would be one.
______________________

Hello there, Aphrodite!

I hear you about feeling enraged about "The Great Scam Perpetrated Against BW." I decided that living well, AND spreading the word was the best "payback."
________________________

Greetings, Anonymous!

You said, "Ladies what do you think about the re-brand DVW(Divested Black Women). The word divest means to free or get rid. We are slowly divesting from the all black communities, dating only black men, selling our selves short, and being overlooked. I think most black women are still trying to get a grip on all of this. it took me a 6 months to full understand and deprogram myself."

I like it as one of our declared principles, but not so much as a brand. I would prefer a brand that represents what we are FOR (and what we are seeking), as opposed to what we are against (and what we have run from).

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymous said...

FYI
There are two blogs written by white men who have thrown ww under the bus.

whitemenwholoveblackwomen
whitewomensuck
check them out

Khadija said...

Hello there, Anonymous!

You said, "FYI
There are two blogs written by white men who have thrown ww under the bus.

whitemenwholoveblackwomen
whitewomensuck
check them out"


Here's my concern: Why should we care about these 2 particular blogs? How does pursuing this info help us? Why should we care about the small number of WM who have renounced WW?

Especially when that behavior (renunciation of WW in general) is NOT typical of WM who select non-White women.

Again, it's inaccurate to project Black pathologies onto other people's behavior. When WM select a non-White woman, it's usually NOT a renunciation of WW. It's NOT parallel to what Negroes are doing when they select a non-Black woman. So why would we care about the miniscule number of WM who are mirroring BM's pathologies in terms of their own women?

This is still shifting our focus back on being resentful of WW, and looking for blogs that validate our resentment of WW.

This is a waste of our time, as far as I'm concerned. And indulges a bad mental habit that many Black folks in general have.

I believe that it's more profitable to spend our limited time and attention on things that are FOR us, as opposed to things that are anti-somebody else.


Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymous said...

Khadija,

I just wanted to first thank you for this blog. I don't know which has given me more food for thought in the last month: your blog or Lisa's! You both have challenged several beliefs I've had since childhood that caused me to pause and really think. Thank you.

Your last comment section was all over the place, but I did want to comment on a few things.

- I've seen you and Lisa have an exchange where you were trying to decide who should be the one to write "Hooked on Phonics" type background posts for those of us who are behind (LOL). I definitely feel that you and Lisa go much deeper than the average blogger and you raise the level of discourse.I hope this isn't insulting, but I feel that you both write in a style where you assume the reader has a certain base level of knowledge about the subject. But I would certainly appreciate any "Here, read this and get your weight up" posts you may do! I wasn't sure if anyone else had said it, but I know I would get a LOT out of them.

- Regarding marrying well and being polished...I think sometimes Americans really screw themselves by buying into the "American Dream" ideology. "Just be smart and get good grades and you'll be fine!" I don't ever recall, in 16 years of schooling, anyone ever holding a class or seminar on why or how important it is to be able to socialize fluidly with different class tiers. I grew up solidly middle class...parents were college educated, lived in the burbs, comfortable upbringing...but I didn't have anyone to teach me those things you and Lisa speak of. I'm only 25 so I feel like I still may be able to make a change, but it makes me wonder if Michelle Obama pre-presidential campaign was yet another sista who thought she was invincible and didn't have to worry about social graces because of her Ivy League degrees. By most black peoples standards, Michelle was doing great. But not great enough to move fluidly in some circles, apparently.

- But then again, Michelle proves that it can be taught. For all their money and influence and "power" (because I'm not too sure they control much of anything as a group), none of the Black Upper Class have ever been First Lady of the United States. None of them have ever been the POTUS, either. In fact, they make it a point to be largely invisible. So I admittedly rolled my eyes when another blog I read said there were whispers among them that Michelle wasn't "polished". She may not have been by their standards, but she certainly was not your average chickenhead on the street.I met Michelle Obama last year and I firmly believe her to be the most genuine public figure I've ever met. She gives ME hope that someday, I can be as gracious and confident and well spoken as she is. I wasn't raised knowing ANY of these things and I don't think she was either...but the FLOTUS makes me feel like maybe its not too late. If she can make just one black girl think twice before fetishizing herself, I'm all for it.

Thank you again Khadija! Apologies for any typos; I'm typing this on my BB! I plan to contribute more thought out responses when I get to a computer.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Anonymous!

You said, "I just wanted to first thank you for this blog. I don't know which has given me more food for thought in the last month: your blog or Lisa's! You both have challenged several beliefs I've had since childhood that caused me to pause and really think. Thank you."

{blushing}You're welcome! And THANK YOU for your kind words and encouragement about the blog. I truly appreciate it. Not to mention that I consider it high praise indeed to be tossed in with Rev. Lisa. She's one of the bloggers that I'm imitating, and trying to follow in their footsteps.

You said, "I hope this isn't insulting, but I feel that you both write in a style where you assume the reader has a certain base level of knowledge about the subject. But I would certainly appreciate any "Here, read this and get your weight up" posts you may do! I wasn't sure if anyone else had said it, but I know I would get a LOT out of them."

Yes, what you're describing has recently come to my attention. And I have been considering a reading list, and other ways to help folks get up to speed. However, I do have some concerns that I need to think through first.

My first priority is to "do no harm" with these discussions. I've noticed how some readers are taking Rev. Lisa's and Evia's terminology of "vetting" and plugging these hip, new terms into their same OLD thought patterns.

For example, lots of Black blog commenters have decided that they like the way the Obamas dress and speak; and have consequently decided that they like them. They then refer to this emotional process as "vetting" the Obamas, and having "determined" them to be allies of Black people.

Dr. Maulana Karenga [the founder of Kwanzaa] was correct during an interview when he pointed out that "illusion is worse than ignorance." Thinking that we understand something when we actually don't is harder to break through than known ignorance.

I don't want to supply a book list that will simply provide hip, new labels for the same, OLD, unhelpful thought patterns. I'm beginning to think that the first step is to break through some of these deeply entrenched thought patterns.

Another concern is the tendency of folks to work overtime to "get it twisted" when dealing with information that challenges their entrenched thought patterns. This is what happened during the Flawless discussion.

Some readers worked their fingers to the bone to try to twist a simple message of more BW stepping up their game in order to take their rightful place on the GLOBAL stage into the following distortions:

-a message for BW to buy into WW's anorexic body image problems;
-a message for BW to buy cosmetics instead of food and other necessities;
-a message in justification of husbands cheating on their wives;
-a message that BW must invest in a stylist and must spend hours contemplating a "signature look."

I'm recounting this at length because I see that this is what happens whenever somebody writes a post challenging our entrenched thought patterns. This also happens whenever anyone questions anything about our current sacred cows Nos.1 &2, the Obamas.

This means that any "Hooked on Phonics"-level introduction to various ideas has to be extremely carefully crafted to avoid unnecessary "get it twisted" pitfalls. It has to be crafted in a way that does NOT lend itself to easy distortions. Many of us are literally addicted to our confused thinking.

You said, "...it makes me wonder if Michelle Obama pre-presidential campaign was yet another sista who thought she was invincible and didn't have to worry about social graces because of her Ivy League degrees. By most black peoples standards, Michelle was doing great. But not great enough to move fluidly in some circles, apparently."

Black folks in general are confused about the value of credentials. We think that official credentials are the end-all and be-all. They're not. Credentials are always nice to have, but there are always a LOT of other things going on that affect one's station in life.

You said, "But then again, Michelle proves that it can be taught. For all their money and influence and "power" (because I'm not too sure they control much of anything as a group), none of the Black Upper Class have ever been First Lady of the United States. None of them have ever been the POTUS, either.

In fact, they make it a point to be largely invisible. So I admittedly rolled my eyes when another blog I read said there were whispers among them that Michelle wasn't "polished". She may not have been by their standards, but she certainly was not your average chickenhead on the street."


Yep. The topic of the Black elite is one of several points where Rev. Lisa and I part company. [And that's cool, everybody doesn't have to be in lock-step in order to be in solidarity. Just as long as the disagreement isn't about a "dealbreaker" sort of issue.]

No, Michelle O. is not polished. Like me, she didn't grow up being taken to formal events. I grew up middle-class. I also would need coaching to learn the social graces that the Black elite are taught as children. Do I care about learning this information? No, because it's not necessary for anything that I'm doing.

However, I would hire a coach to teach me this stuff if it was relevant to achieving my goals. It concerns me that so many BW are so invested into Michelle O. that it's blasphemy to point out that she's a "work in progress" in many ways. And so, these women seek to re-define "polished" and "poised" in a way that accomodates Michelle O's deficits. This is crazy.

I have NO use for the AA Black elite. I don't "hate on" or resent them; but I also don't admire them. I am indifferent toward them. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about them. I don't feel particularly emotionally charged up when they are mentioned.

They are irrelevant to me. They don't control anything that I care about. They are not needed for any of my goals. I believe that, due to their manner of self-absorption, they are irrelevant to the fate of Black folks.

Just like African and other dysfunctional third world elites, the AA elites haven't quite figured out that it's better to be an elite class on top of a healthy, thriving collective. Instead of being at the top of a heap of pathetic, starving peasants. And then they wonder why White elites are still in control of everything.

White elites are in control because their collective as a whole is healthier. This gives them a stronger foundation. Having figurative "peasants" underneath you who are prosperous makes YOUR foundation stronger as an elite class. For example, consider the base level of the masses of Jewish people around the world. Their "base" level of people are thriving. This pushes their elite even higher.

I contrast our elite with people like (dictator) Gen. Park Chung-hee, who industrialized South Korea and dramatically improved their standard of living (and that nation's fate) in just ONE generation! He completely changed the fate of his people in just one generation.

Gen. Park Chung-hee is one of my heroes! Other people's elites change the very fate of nations. The AA elite focus their attention on keeping other folks out of their social gatherings. For the most part, the Black elite are useless to the rest of us. I suggest that the rest of us forget about them completely, and focus our attention on useful people, places, and things.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

JaliliMaster said...

"Reciprocity is an alien concept among AAs when it comes to interacting with bw. Any bw who lets it be clearly known that she absolutely refuses to be a HOST or prey is considered a threat and is pounced on by MOST AA males and many bw and called: a traitor, a sellout, not supportive of the 'brothas,' forgot where she came from, acting white, and when all of those fail to make a dent, she is called a FEMINIST. LOL! I'm just amazed at the super-intelligent bw who will meekly get back into her place when she's called a 'feminist.' SMH"

I remeber during the election, the actress Kerry washington was on a Black radio show. She was talking aout how she was in a dilemma because she had to pick between Clinton or Obama. She said they both had policies she liked, however, she is a feminist, so she wanted a woman president, but also wanted a black president. It was after careful thought that she eventually decided to publibly support Obama. The moment she mentioned the word 'feminist', the black male radio host immediately jumped on her and cut her off and said, with disgust in his voice: "You're a feminist?" She pretended as if she didn't notice the consternation in his voice and calmly replied: "Yes, I'm a feminist." She then continued talking. The radio show host immediately realised that she wasn't the type of person to fall for that nonsense and he changed his tone immediately and was even a little embarrassed.
_______________________


"Maybe this is due to deep-seated anger/envy towards the feminist movemement and ww ? I don't quite understand that because I apparently don't view ww the way some bw do. I've had a few unpleasant experiences with ww, but I don't view them negatively as a group. The ONLY reason why ww are in the good-better-best position they're in IS because of wm. If the vast majority of bw had men who viewed us as vital to their group's future and who elevated us the way ww are elevated by the BULK of wm, we'd be in a good-better-best position TOO. This is why I URGE as many individual bw as possible to marry strategically and/or marry well."

I don't think it has anything to do with issues regarding ww feminists, but more to do with how bw have been treated in society, both by whites and those in the so-called black community. So when they see that even the men who they decided to support at the expense of themselves(remember, those at the helm of the civil rights movement told Black women to wait and work with them first, then when they solved racial inequality issues, they in turn would help with women's equality. Still waiting). Now, many of these bm now turn round and treat ww and other non-bw better than they treat bw, so I think that is where the feeling comes from.
________________________


"When ww marry well-positioned (rich, influential) or well-employed bm, these women are marrying strategically or well or both. They're mainly marrying those men so that their 'living well' status and that of their children will rise. There are only so many rich or well-positioned wm, so ww see rich/influential/well-employed bm as ANOTHER territory, ANOTHER source, ANOTHER pool of men or another way to accomplish their objective."

Personally, I think the majority of these women figure that in this day and age, it would be more beneficial to them to have certain class priviledges by marrying a wealthy black man than white priviledge marrying a non-wealthy white man. The fact is that when it comes time for court proceedings, they will always get one over on their bm husbands from the judges. The best example I have is of Michael Strachan, the NFL player. He was married to this hippy-type ww, average in every way. When it came time for divorce, it turns out, that HIS lawyer had gotten the silliest deal for him, entitling her to more than half of his money. Now, he is dating Eddie Murphy's ex-wife, the mixed-race one, and that relationship isn't going well either. He actually planted a GPS tracking device on her car as he thought she was cheating(he wasn't being faithful himself).

I remember when the story of his divorce first broke, alot of bw were insulting him on message boards and laughing. It was worth noting that none of the bm were calling his wife a golddigger. The bw started to get angry when someone pointed out that he has children with a first wife(who is black). They live in a normal house, and no one would believe that their father is a multimillionaire NFL player. But he was ready to put the white wife and his children with her in a mega mansion, and she was now entitled to more than half of his millions. They were so peeved that none of the black men on the message board were ready or even willing to throw the insults at his soon-to-be ex-wife that they usually do to bw in the same position. I was wondering, "If these men start calling this woman names, and start praising his first wife for not getting him to put as much effort into his kids with her as he did with his mixed-race kids, how does it actually edify any of the bw who were so annoyed?" It doesn't change the fact that he cared alot more for this woman and her kids than he did for the children he had with the woman who he had been with when he wasn't rich. It is not going to stop this woman from getting the money he had agreed and signed that she'd be entitled to. And it wouldn't have, in any way whatsoever, improved the quality of life of any of the bw on the message board.
________________________

"White people have historically been explorers who were willing to travel to find the resources they need and want. They haven't been socialized to stay in one place and starve. And these women know they can out-compete the average bw for those wealthy bm because they KNOW that a typical bm craves lighter-whiter women. I honestly can't blame those women for using what they have to get what they want."

I don't blame them, but only this much. If they have no problem with discrimination, then they shouldn't complain when it ends up being directed at them. This is not with ww, but also the othe lighter/brighter/mixed bw. Look at the high number of decades-long black marriages that ended in the 80's and 90's for no obvious eason. Their husbands left them for white women, usually of the same age and lesser looks. These men always wanted these women, but in their younger years, were unable to, either because there were still so many racial barriers, or legally, they just couldn't. When they could eventually get these women, many of them didn't think twice about dropping their wives. Its' only then that these women could acknowledge that bm self-hate greatly informed their dating habits and choices.
___________________

"Asian women are known to do the same thing. I don't see a reason to be angry at or envious towards any of these women. Bw should be doing the SAME thing. Individual bw should be using what they have to get what they want instead of being mad at non-bw. This is why Khadija keeps talking about becoming flawless. I can't understand why some of y'all can't embrace that and run with it. It's common sense. You've got to sharpen your pick ax to dig out the gold. It's not the fault of these other women that bw have chosen to stay stuck up under mostly parasitic or predator po-behind, struggling bm. It's not their fault that so many bw fell for the okey doke and went around screaming "Nothing but a bm" which has in effect cut off escape routes for many of their daughters."

I notice that many of these resentful bw have alot more 'beef' with the flawless looking bw that date these desirable men(whether bm on non-bm) than they do for the non-bw that date them. I saw a comment from a bw where she said a particualr bm celebrity should dump his girlfriend and 'get a real sista'. His girlfriend was black. I dont mean mixed or anything. She was black. It turns out, that was was annoying this woman was that she was slim. We are so used to seeing successful bm with these average/below average non-bw, yet when he dates an average bw, the people who attack the most are bw(see Tameka Foster and Usher. I can't stand the woman, but it was clear to me that the main driving force for the vitriol she received from bw was that they felt they looked better than her, so how did she get someone like Usher and they couldn't).
________________________


"I, likewise, chose to separate myself from the parasites and predators early in my life, and lo and behold, I discovered that more than a few bw were/are angry at and envious of me!

Isn't bw's anger mostly at themselves for being so easily conned and so easily used? Isn't it more a case of bw ***projecting*** their self-anger onto other women (of whatever skin shade) who've played their cards better?"

You are 100% correct with this observation. It is not unusual for women's jealousies to clowd their judgement. It is not just bw who will hate on a fellow bw. Try being a slim/medium-sized, attractive bw in a work environment where there are large numbers of ww, you'll see office politics in action. They can try to attack you just because you don't conform to their negative stereotypes of you or because you make them feel bad/don't make them feel like daddy's little princess. The same goes for lighter skinned-women who would be resentful of a darker-skinned woman who people found more attractive. Or other black women who would be annoyed that someone like them is living life to the full, not being a mule, etc. e.g. comments like.."she think she cute, she think she better than err'body else, etc."
___________________________

"Just because wm marry aw and bw doesn't mean they have removed their investment from ww. This cannot be assumed. White people cannot continue without ww. White people are still a good investment for wm. I would think that only wm who hate white people would totally remove their investment from ww. Likewise, when I was married to my Nigerian husband, I knew that he was still HEAVILY vested in HIS ethnic group. I respected that. Likewise, I would still be heavily invested in my group if my group was a good investment, but all indicators show clearly that it's not. We cannot overlook the fact that the bulk of AA males are damaged and/or many of the ones who could or can, have pulled away from AAs. I think lots of bw WANT to forget that. But this is why I advocate to bw: "Get off the sinking ship." When I was younger, I was a vehement "black power" advocate, but this would be beyond crazy at this point."

Most IR married wm still invest their time/resources in white people, that is what they are used to. How many IR married bm still go to black areas/among black people and try to invest, impove where they came from. In fact, it is quite the opposite. And it's not just the IR married/dating ones that do it. Some not only don't want to do anything, but some even want to take away. Look at the likes of Clarence Thomas!
__________________________

Evia said...

Khadija, I think that some aspects of the behavior of the Black elite are relevant to the re-branding that we're proposing. So I'd like to offer a perspective on the parallels between the black elite and us "re-branders" (for lack of a better name.)

Re:
I have NO use for the AA Black elite. I don't "hate on" or resent them; but I also don't admire them.

I've been accused of being "aloof" or a snob, but no one would ever accuse me of being a member of the black elite, LOL! However, I do know some of these people in the northeast. I've lived on various slices of life and one slice of life that I lived on a few years ago put me in the mix with some of these black folks from families that are among the black elite.

I'm not sure about all the ways some of them are viewed by various levels of black folks aside from a level of negativity towards them, but some of the ones of them that I've met are just ordinary people who just happened to be born into that circle of money, privileges and expansive (and expensive) lifestyle.

However, they know that other blacks don't like them, so they are very secretive and don't often try to mix. When they do, they don't let you know--until later on--that their family is in the black elite "register." There are enough of them in practically every region in the nprtheast so that they don't have to mingle with other blacks. They have their own clubs, organizations, networks, etc. and they mingle with whites and others. And that's good because many of their values don't mesh well with the values of MOST of the rest of us.

Having enough common values is critical for getting along with others of any group or race. If you don't have enough values in common with even someone in your family, you're not going to get along with them. This is why I don't have anything to do with certain members of my own biological family. They place a high value on certain things; I place a high value on other things. So we stay apart.

Those of us who see the need to re-brand have discovered that we also don't share enough values with the ABCs for harmonious interactions and progressive development. So we're talking here about setting ourselves apart from them. I hope you realize that the ABCs are going to view us the SAME way that some of us view the black elites. LOL!

I know for a fact that I have more in common (same values) with some of the black elites I met--at least those over 40--than I have with ANY of the ABCs.

I am indifferent toward them.

I'm indifferent towards some of them, but some of them are, like I said, are just ordinary people. This segment of them doesn't put on "airs" (as some of them are accused of doing by non-elites) because they're used to their lifestyle. They've never known anything else.

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about them. I don't feel particularly emotionally charged up when they are mentioned.

I guess that because I've had pleasant dealings with some of them, I would tend to see them more as individuals--some of whom I like and others, I'm indifferent towards.

I believe that, due to their manner of self-absorption, they are irrelevant to the fate of Black folks.

I agree, but because I will always be a social scientist, I'd wonder about the reasons WHY they pulled away from the rest of us and what keeps them apart. Just like some of them rejected other blacks for the wrong reasons, many other blacks also rejected them and not for the right reasons. We re-branders are often rejected by the ABCs and I definitely reject the behaviors and values of the ABCs.

Let me just say that though I give back to any bw who is interested in my type of help, I'm still sometimes accused of being 'self-absorbed,' simply because I go on doing what I do for me and mine, ignoring silliness, and without allowing other folks to pull me off-track. LOL! Many AAs don't like blacks of my type for that reason.

And Khadija, as we go on with this re-branding, there will be many black folks who will say that we are "self-absorbed bougie snobs who don't care about the plight of the black poor." So get ready! There will be LOTS of "misunderstandings" with other black folks (crabs) putting their own slants, spins, and MISinterpretation on what we're doing and in many cases they will do that DELIBERATELY to slow us down and will most def try to destroy any chance of success of this re-branding effort.

Just like African and other dysfunctional third world elites, the AA elites haven't quite figured out that it's better to be an elite class on top of a healthy, thriving collective.

Remember that this is exactly what the ABCs are going to say about us Rebrands. LOL! They are going to say that we have more intellectual and other capital, so we should pull the others up. This is what's ALWAYS being said--that the black middle class needs to reach back and help and help and help and help. There never is ANY responsibility placed on the arrogant lower-echelon folks to shut up, listen, and take our advice. Instead, we're expected to argue relentlessly with them, fight with them, be patient, be called names by them, and somehow win them over and pull them up. I decided years ago that I wasn't going to do that and black folks could call me anything they wanted and they have. LOL! I couldn't spend my time, energy, and other resources that way.

Instead of being at the top of a heap of pathetic, starving peasants. And then they wonder why White elites are still in control of everything.

A major difference between lower echelon whites and lower tiered blacks is that the lower white "peasants" do NOT have the arrogance that lower-echelon blacks have, by a long shot. For ex. the white poor in Apalachia or in any community that I've ever observed are NOT the counterparts of the ABCs. Many lower-tiered AAs who I encounter think that I should shut up and listen to them, despite the fact that they're asking ME for help. You are not going to find lower-tiered folks in ANY other group behaving like that!!

For ex. many well-to-do or better-off Nigerians definitely help their struggling family members and other Nigerians in the community who are not doing well, but those who are being helped KNOW that they must shut up, listen, and do their part. I've watched this process MANY times.

AAs are not like that BECAUSE many of us have NOTHING in common with each other aside from the fact that various other people do not like/accept us. MANY of us do not have ENOUGH commonalities to get along with each other easily. We KEEP forgetting that. We are NOT, by our OWN choice, an ethnic group.

However, overall I think African-descended folks everywhere tend to be VERY arrogant people or more arrogant than can be justified. I can't quite wrap my brain around all that it's based on, but it's a trait that lurks there in many ethnic groups and classes of blacks. But this causes many of us not to be able to deal with each other easily or not at all. Most often, humility is lacking for the most part among blacks these days--UNLESS they are dealing with whites and other non-blacks. LOL!

White elites are in control because their collective as a whole is healthier. This gives them a stronger foundation. Having figurative "peasants" underneath you who are prosperous makes YOUR foundation stronger as an elite class. For example, consider the base level of the masses of Jewish people around the world. Their "base" level of people are thriving. This pushes their elite even higher.

VERY TRUE, but the "black peasants" are not usually like peasants from these other groups. For ex., look at what you and Lisa had to endure in your "Becoming Flawless" thread. Not saying that those commenters were among the "peasants," but it was VERY valuable information you and she were providing because y'all pretty much laid out a blueprint for bw successfully preparing themselves to step out on the world stage. But SOME bw in that thread had y'all on the ropes. There are ways to discuss things without that level of verbal friction.

The bottom line is that most human beings are NOT going to deal with that level of conflict just to help strangers or even family members in many cases. Likewise, look at all the attempts that have been made to beat me down when all I'm trying to do is offer what I can to uplift bw, and I appreciate, Khadija, that you pointed that out the other day. I just wish that AAs and similar blacks could just walk or click away if they don't understand or don't "want" to understand.

I've noticed all too often that if an AA person doesn't understand what you're saying, they will blame YOU, instead of realizing that they're the ones who LACK the ability to understand. SMH

With this idea of the proposed re-branding, this type of arrogant, immature, ego-based behavior is going to have to be checked at the door. Whether I'm involved in it or not, the principles are going to have to be spelled out clearly so that folks can read and accept the final basic philosophy of it or NOT. Infighting shouldn't be tolerated. After all, if folks want to continue with conflict, they can join the ABCs.

Halima said...

I like it as one of our declared principles, but not so much as a brand. I would prefer a brand that represents what we are FOR (and what we are seeking), as opposed to what we are against (and what we have run from).

Declared principles.

Now that is something i think is very critical, and you know what, we can actually start to round these up now, before the name is choosen and actually, it will enable us bring out the 'essence' of the new brand and thus eventually a fitting name!

DeStouet said...

"Another concern is the tendency of folks to work overtime to "get it twisted" when dealing with information that challenges their entrenched thought patterns."

Speaking for myself, this is not what happens. I look at the information you and others provide me with and the way I deal with it (if it is not something I already believe or agree with) as going through the same kind of uncomfortable process as this weight loss and becoming overall healthier challenge.

A lot of what is being discussed here is new to me. However there have been several things that I had already played around with in my head but could never get to the bigger picture. An example of this is just how damaged the black community is, and how the contract between both AA men and women has been completely one sided for years.

Another example of this is the need to cut off certain family members because of their dysfunction.

There are a few other examples I could have listed but I said all of that to say I had already played around with several things that have been discussed here on the blog for a while. Many of you have just been able to provide me with the details.

But there are certain topics that I believe differently than you on, but it's not because I am addicted to confused thinking. For the most part, it is dealing with topics and issues that I never had to deal with like the "Flawless" post and the "Self-Purification" post.

One of the things I've noticed about you, Evia and Lisa comments is that when you post something that most of us women should just know or something that should just be common sense, you say that it was something that was taught to you. Something that was passed down to you from a loving caring parent, aunt, or other signifigant other. Needless to say, I did not have that kind of 24/7 teacher in my home.

And since I am a parent, I can assure you that one of the main reasons you were able to grasp the concept of whatever was being taught to you, is because it was constantly being explained to you. In different ways. From different angles. Using different scenerios.

Now when you are breaking something down for me to understand, if it is an issue I am not familiar with, and I begin to disagree with you --I am not working overtime to get it twisted--I just don't agree or don't understand the complete concept -yet. But I will, if I am suppose to.

To be honest, to gain the kind of understanding many of you have on certain topics, it takes years of learning. I am doing my best to shovel down what many of you have learned during the course of your entire lives, in one post or two posts, and by reading the comments that dig deeper into the topic. Plus, I use other blogs to connect the dots.

But I manage.

"I'm beginning to think that the first step is to break through some of these deeply entrenched thought patterns."

Yes, I agree.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Greetings Khadija!

Thank you for your very kind words and your continued support of the work that I do at my blog forum... it's not easy being such a controversial blog host! *LOL*

I need to visit Evia's blog. I haven't read more than three of the posts at her IR blog in the last year and people send me email AS IF I am reading her blog! I know she's doing phenomenal work over there!

Thank you for your comment to Anonymous about the blogs that bash white women!!

{thumbs up}

Why in the world would anyone think that we would be interested in engaging with those who have resentments towards white women? Just how is that useful time spent for us? Your response was very well-articulated!

As for the whisperings about Michelle O among the black elite...they were more than whispers! Michelle's presentation was a mess (by the standards of the upper crust) nd she was so unrefined that it was an embarrassment to the black elite that she was even "out there". That's really the truth.

They were HORRIFIED that blacks in the other tiers thought "this is how the black elite are". They were thinking "oh noooo she's not!"

Michelle is improving quickly and she's trying and everyone sees that. If black women want to emulate her, that's fine. It's their choice. If Michelle is the "new" high standard then the standard is MUCH TOO LOW.

I agree with you that the blacks in other classes should not spend their time trying to figure how HOW to be socially mobile among the black elite since it is a closed class tier.

I don't focus on sharing the "inner workings" of the black elite at my blog forum.

I really don't see why I should.

I don't see why or how discussing the black elite will be useful to the empowerment of black women.

The black elite has CHOSEN to be a group that is invisible to the middle class blacks AND the lower class blacks.

I view the black elite as a closed class tier that only those who are "born in" will ever belong in. There is no point in discussing their dynamics when that group is not accessible and does not influence the mobility of black women in mainstream society - except when white elites are asking them to "vouch" for some black person who is a class-outsider.

You said:
"Just like African and other dysfunctional third world elites, the AA elites haven't quite figured out that it's better to be an elite class on top of a healthy, thriving collective."

I should mention that the black elite does NOT have a desire to be at the top of the heap of blacks or in a position to control the fate of blacks. This is why the black elite (as a group) does not invest in "bringing up" the black race while there are individuals in that class tier who invest heavily in black interests.

The black elite is focused on out-maneuvering whites. How well do they do in these maneuvers? No one outside of their class tier EVEN SEES sees the black elite so those folks are not able to assess/comment on how the black elite is implementing dominance strategy among other white elites. The average black person does not even see the black elite in operation.

From what I have seen, the black elite does not have ANY interest at all in having a role of class leadership of all blacks. From what I can see, they put the bulk of their money overseas.

Since I am a minister, I am in a middle class profession and that means that the middle class becomes my class of residency.

I hope I don't have to explain the dynamics of class of residency and class of origin, do I? {yawn}

You made some great points about the reason why a reading list is not helpful for those who do not have changed thinking. I too have observed that people just plug in their OLD thought patterns into the "new" concepts and therefore distort the entire thing. This is an excellent observation that you have made. I see it at my blog every week...

I love that you said:
" Thinking that we understand something when we actually don't is harder to break through than known ignorance."

How many times have you seen me post replies like, "I never said that!" and "That was never a position that I have made at this blog!" I reply that way often because people are clinging to THEIR OWN mindset and attempting to reframe what they "think" I have presented.

But we can not be discouraged...we must press onward with the life-strengthening message of introspection and elevation!!

{raised black glove}

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

DeStouet said...

"There are ways to discuss things without that level of verbal friction."

You're probably right but I can only do so much. During the course of one post, there are about a THOUSAND jewels being dropped by different people. I'm watching and learning how to disagree without being disagreeable. Whenever anyone disagrees with another person during a discussion, I watch and I try to imitate to the best of my ability.

Give me time.

DeStouet said...

"If Michelle is the "new" high standard then the standard is MUCH TOO LOW."

What woman would you suggest?

Khadija said...

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

You said, "We are so used to seeing successful bm with these average/below average non-bw, yet when he dates an average bw, the people who attack the most are bw(see Tameka Foster and Usher. I can't stand the woman, but it was clear to me that the main driving force for the vitriol she received from bw was that they felt they looked better than her, so how did she get someone like Usher and they couldn't)."

Yep. I was disgusted by the sheer hatred directed toward Tameka Foster by so many BW. We must keep in mind that being oppressed does NOT guarantee that the person is not evil, too. There are a LOT of oppressed BW who are also yucky people.
________________

Hello there, Evia!

You said, "Those of us who see the need to re-brand have discovered that we also don't share enough values with the ABCs for harmonious interactions and progressive development. So we're talking here about setting ourselves apart from them. I hope you realize that the ABCs are going to view us the SAME way that some of us view the black elites. LOL!"

Yes, I know. LOL!

You said, "And Khadija, as we go on with this re-branding, there will be many black folks who will say that we are "self-absorbed bougie snobs who don't care about the plight of the black poor." So get ready! There will be LOTS of "misunderstandings" with other black folks (crabs) putting their own slants, spins, and MISinterpretation on what we're doing and in many cases they will do that DELIBERATELY to slow us down and will most def try to destroy any chance of success of this re-branding effort."

Yep. We must get ready for the onslaught. LOL!

You said, "This is what's ALWAYS being said--that the black middle class needs to reach back and help and help and help and help. There never is ANY responsibility placed on the arrogant lower-echelon folks to shut up, listen, and take our advice. Instead, we're expected to argue relentlessly with them, fight with them, be patient, be called names by them, and somehow win them over and pull them up. I decided years ago that I wasn't going to do that and black folks could call me anything they wanted and they have. LOL! I couldn't spend my time, energy, and other resources that way."

But this is the core difference between those of us who are re-branding, and the Black elite: The door of acceptance IS open for every like-minded Black person who shares our values. This is NOT some hereditary club that we're forming.

Like you, I'm not going to fight with, and force Black underclass members, strivers, or anybody else through the door by gunpoint. They can come in AND THRIVE if they share our values. They can stay out AND DIE (in the wilderness) if they don't. It's up to them.


You said, "A major difference between lower echelon whites and lower tiered blacks is that the lower white "peasants" do NOT have the arrogance that lower-echelon blacks have, by a long shot...

...Many lower-tiered AAs who I encounter think that I should shut up and listen to them, despite the fact that they're asking ME for help. You are not going to find lower-tiered folks in ANY other group behaving like that!!"


This is true. However, I would point out that these are modern, "new school" "peasant" behaviors. "Old school" Black folks didn't act like that.

As you described with the Nigerians you observed, I was raised by my "peasant"-origin (LOL!) parents and relatives to understand that "those who are being helped KNOW that they must shut up, listen, and do their part." That includes ME, if I'm the person being helped.

My older ("peasant"-origin, LOL!) relatives feel that this arrogance is another by-product of the modern welfare mentality that became widespread in the 1960s.

You said, "For ex., look at what you and Lisa had to endure in your "Becoming Flawless" thread....Not saying that those commenters were among the "peasants," but it was VERY valuable information you and she were providing...But SOME bw in that thread had y'all on the ropes."

Guurl, that was some deep-seated mess. That whole exchange taught me some (unpleasant but "need to know") things as a novice cyber-"preacher."

You said, "There are ways to discuss things without that level of verbal friction.

The bottom line is that most human beings are NOT going to deal with that level of conflict just to help strangers or even family members in many cases."


THIS is a critical point that people need to understand. Nobody OWES anybody anything. Certainly not any help. Nobody is obligated to wade through hostile nonsense to try to help anybody.

You said, "Likewise, look at all the attempts that have been made to beat me down when all I'm trying to do is offer what I can to uplift bw, and I appreciate, Khadija, that you pointed that out the other day."

You're welcome, and THANK YOU for all the work that you have done. And this is something else that Black folks in general need to learn---how to SHOW gratitude for somebody who helped them. We tend to be ingrates with each other. Meanwhile, we gush for years later over any non-Black who throws us a moldy crumb.

Let me repeat a stern warning that I heard one of Elijah Muhammad's supporters give:

If somebody helped you, you need to open up your mouth and THANK that person. And THANK them again! And tell the truth about what they did for YOU when their name comes up in conversation.

If somebody helped you, that person shouldn't have to defend themselves, BY THEMSELVES from liars, nuts and trolls. You need to open up your mouth and just tell the TRUTH about what that person did to help YOU.

If somebody helped you, and was later wronged by somebody else, you need to open your mouth and say what was wrong. You don't have to fight that person's battle for them, just TELL THE TRUTH about how they helped you!

Too often, when somebody helps us, we take it for granted and let that person twist in the wind. When we act like this this, we DON'T DESERVE any help from anybody!

Evia, I know that you're a modest person, and I don't mean to embarass you, but the following really needs to be said to the silent audience:

What the above means to me in this context:

1-Reading Evia's essays helped ME when I felt disoriented after coming out of the Black Nationalist trance I had been in for years.

2-Evia's essays have helped a LOT of other BW. She's lifted a lot of BW's spirits.

3-Evia didn't have to be bothered with any of this. She didn't have be bothered with facing the cyber-stalking, threats, and madness that has followed her public support of BW's interests.

4-Since I am one of the BW who were helped by her work, I need to open my mouth and THANK HER for her work.

5-Since I am one of the BW who were helped by her work, I need to publicly TELL THE TRUTH about how her work helped ME.

6-Since I am one of the BW who were helped by her work, it should be displeasing to ME to see her slandered and maligned. And since this is displeasing to me, I need to speak out about that.

7-This is how you show gratitude to God for those people among His creation who helped you!

Dear Silent Audience: It angers me that there are a LOT of cowardly BF ingrates among our ranks who are eagerly reaping the benefits of reading essays by pioneers like Evia, Halima and others, but yet these women are silent when they come under attack. And these women never publicly acknowlege how their work has enriched their lives.

Half of these BF cowards would have fits if the pioneers retired from blogging. But yet they say and do nothing to show any appreciation for all that they have gained by reading the pioneers' work. All the while, the pioneers have been out on the front lines taking LOADS of heat and harassment.

This is despicable.

{climbing down from my soapbox}

Evia, you said, "With this idea of the proposed re-branding, this type of arrogant, immature, ego-based behavior is going to have to be checked at the door.

Whether I'm involved in it or not, the principles are going to have to be spelled out clearly so that folks can read and accept the final basic philosophy of it or NOT. Infighting shouldn't be tolerated. After all, if folks want to continue with conflict, they can join the ABCs."


EXACTLY! We CANNOT tolerate folks who want to stir up confusion and enmity on the "survive and thrive" life boats! Folks who want to fight can go back to the ABCs and fight with them.

Peace, blessings, and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Halima!

You said, "Declared principles.

Now that is something i think is very critical, and you know what, we can actually start to round these up now, before the name is choosen and actually, it will enable us bring out the 'essence' of the new brand and thus eventually a fitting name!"


I agree! {fastening my "thinking cap"}
_____________________

Hello there, Lisa!

You said, "The black elite is focused on out-maneuvering whites. How well do they do in these maneuvers? No one outside of their class tier EVEN SEES sees the black elite so those folks are not able to assess/comment on how the black elite is implementing dominance strategy among other white elites. The average black person does not even see the black elite in operation."

I'll put it this way: I see who it is that's controlling the industry (and the industry niche) that I'm entering. And it's NOT the Black elite. I've seen who it is (and their various sub-groups) that controls the profession that I'm a part of. It's NOT the Black elite.

Whatever it is that the Black elites want;

Whatever it is that they call themselves doing;

The Black elite does not matter.

The Black elite does not control anything that I care about. They are irrelevant.

You said, "I too have observed that people just plug in their OLD thought patterns into the "new" concepts and therefore distort the entire thing."

This distortion compounds the original problem, because now there's a NEW mental "knot" to be untied on top of the old one. This situation is why I'm feeling skittish about providing a book list without some extensive preparatory conversations.

You said, "But we can not be discouraged...we must press onward with the life-strengthening message of introspection and elevation!!

{raised black glove}"


THANK YOU, Comrade Lisa!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

sistrunkqueen said...

These ww bashing blogs that you call them have been very supportive of the Something New movement. The white men who blog and post on them have given alot of shout outs to Evia, halima, and other IR BW bloggers. Don't let the names fool you. Some of these bloggers are very serious about taking ww off of their pedestals and they have been strategic in their efforts.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Sistrunkqueen!

You said, "These ww bashing blogs that you call them have been very supportive of the Something New movement. The white men who blog and post on them have given alot of shout outs to Evia, halima, and other IR BW bloggers. Don't let the names fool you. Some of these bloggers are very serious about taking ww off of their pedestals and they have been strategic in their efforts."

But efforts to do what? Snatch WW off of their pedestals?

I don't feel that "snatching WW off of their pedestals" helps BW. Their pedestals and crowns have nothing to do with our pedestals and crowns.

Like I said during the Self-Determination discussion, MY crown rests upon my head based upon my own charms. It's not there based on denigrating some other woman. It's there because it belongs to me. I don't need (or want) a crown that was snatched off some other woman's head.

The underlying idea that BW can only "win" if WW (or other non-Black women) "lose" is extremely disturbing. It sounds like not believing that BW can win on our own merits. It reminds me of how skater Tonya Harding schemed to have Nancy Kerrigan hit in the knee because apparently Ms. Harding didn't think she could win on her own.

We don't have to do that. We don't have to bash WW (or other non-Black women) to win. All we need to do is cultivate our God-given assets, and go where our charms are appreciated.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

sistrunkqueen said...

One of wm efforts and I am not a expert on these blogs is to identify some of the behavior patterns of some ww toward wm. some wm have complained about selfish behavior of ww. The selfish behavior seems to be an underlining theme on these blogs. No I don't want a used crown/pedestal either, but I am not going to stop wm from dating/mating IR either. They know what they like or dislike.
Also I don't think reading these blogs puts down ww per se. It allow me since I must be the only one except for Anon who reads them, to be at an advantage in the social landmines out here.

Enlightened said...

Hey again, Khadija (I posted as anonymous at 9:52 p.m. yesterday)!

Thanks for responding to my comments! Just wanted to elaborate on some things (and I am REALLY trying to "check my filters" as Lisa says so please bear with me!):

- @ Lisa (another whose blog I absolutely love!), the "whisperings" by the black upper class about Michelle Obama being unpolished was mentioned a few times on a black political blog that I read constantly throughout the Presidential Campaign. I don't recall them ever going into too much depth about it, but I do remember how angry people got when it was mentioned. Even I was surprised to hear that, but after I read Khadija's blog about how elite girls are trained in such matters from birth, it made sense. I am admittedly someone who never even knew of a black upper class until I read "Our Kind of People" by Laurence Otis Graham in high school.

- Lisa said... Michelle's presentation was a mess (by the standards of the upper crust) nd she was so unrefined that it was an embarrassment to the black elite that she was even "out there"...They were HORRIFIED that blacks in the other tiers thought "this is how the black elite are". They were thinking "oh noooo she's not!.....The black elite has CHOSEN to be a group that is invisible to the middle class blacks AND the lower class blacks.
"


If the black elite makes an effort to be invisible, then why are they surprised that people are unable to differentiate between Michelle Obama and someone who belongs in their group?

I agree with Khadija in that I don't see the black upper class as being relevant, either. Like I said, for all their power, wealth and influence, Barack and Michelle certainly didn't have to go through them to get to the White House, which is strange to me because they are supposed to be the very best of the black community. B&M were also even able to befriend someone who does belong to their group and make her a close friend/advisor (Valerie Jarrett).

I have friends who grew up in "elite" families in Los Angeles and even they have told me that if they were white, they'd probably be upper middle class. No way would they be considered "elite".

- Khadija, I totally understand your hesitation about providing a book list or remedial posts for people if folks are just going to use it to apply to their own jacked up logic. I just wanted to let you know that there are some sistas reading this blog who drink you, Lisa, Evia, and other posters words up like a sponge and with an open heart! I was actually a bit nervous about commenting because the women here are so sharp and I also had to really digest what you were saying. There were beliefs I had for 25 years that just got blown apart. I had to "check my filters" before coming up in your house. But it was important to me that I told you how important your work is. You are absolutely correct; I would DIE if you all shut your blogs down! No one else on any other site is asking the questions you all are asking.In fact, I'm having some trouble accessing Lisa's blog and I'm THOROUGHLY upset because I was ready to go all the way back to the first post.

- Regarding black people's need to "reach back and help and help", that is SPOT ON. I remember I took a sociology course in college and we were discussing class issues. I got up and asked my predominantly white classmates if they ever felt any sense of responsibility to help those among them who were poor. The answer was a RESOUNDING "NO". I know that's not hardly accurate of the white community in general, but it was eye opening for me.

I have believed for awhile now that only middle class/upper class black people seem to be expected to reach back and overexert themselves to help the poor among us, even when they fight and kick and scream the entire time.

Evia said...

Khadija {{{{{Hugging YOU!}}}!!!Thank You for who you are. I appreciate you so much and I Thank God for you and your courage. I appreciate you SO MUCH!!!

re:

Dear Silent Audience: It angers me that there are a LOT of cowardly BF ingrates among our ranks who are eagerly reaping the benefits of reading essays by pioneers like Evia, Halima and others, but yet these women are silent when they come under attack. And these women never publicly acknowlege how their work has enriched their lives.

I don't want these other women to speak out to support me because it will be recorded and reported to my adversaries and these bw WILL be attacked by these petty-butt other female bloggers, rabid bm, and commenters for being one of "Evia's supporters." That's about as bad as it gets for a lot of bw who read our sites. A lot of them are very afraid of the gang that attacked me. They therefore don't feel free to drop in on various blogs and say what they want because they know they're being watched. I don't want their freedom to be curtailed online because they're already blocked enough offline.

Honestly, Khadija, I was hesitant to even thank you for your kind words about me for a long while because I didn't and don't want you to come under attack for saying nice things about Evia. Even after I thanked you yesterday, I thought about how that might have been a mistake.

So I understand these women fear of these others. I won't ever have their fear, but I understand it. They lack courage, and they know that other scared bw will just stand by and let them be shredded--just like bw stood by and allowed Alice Walker and Ntozake Shange to have holes torn into them by bm.

One of the most shocking aspects of my blogging and online experience in general has been getting links that reveal the level of fear and appeasing behaviors that so many bw display online towards DBRbm and their black female protectors. These fearful bw tiptoe around these DBRs AND their bf lapdogs!

So, somewhere in the socialization/indoctrination of MANY bw has been planted a LOT of fear of these petty-behind, powerless people.

I'm from a part of the old school that didn't plant that fear in me. The bw I grew up around didn't have that fear. That's who I took notes from. My grandmother and mother had absolutely no fear of petty-butt people and definitely not people who had NO power. So many bw of today are scared to death of these petty-butt people who have NO power! I've never learned to be afraid of people who don't have power.

A case in point of this fear that some bw who read my site have is that a few weeks ago, I wrote an essay and made a comment that could be construed as controversial. Don't I always? LOL! But let me even explain that. Nothing I say is controversial to ME. I'm just expressing my opinions. It's other people who consider what I say to be so "controversial."

Anyway, in this case, I published the essay on my site, as usual and as usual I read over it and saw some errors, but before I could correct the errors, I got a frantic comment from a reader begging me to PLEASE PLEASE remove a statement I'd made in the essay because she was AFRAID of what one of my adversaries--another bw blogger (who she named) might say. Wow! I could actually see this woman's FEAR dripping from her words. She was that afraid of what this other bw blogger would say about me. WHY???

I kept this woman's comment because it revealed something I'm still trying to understand. I read it a few times because I tried to figure out WHY she's so terrified of what this other female blogger is going to say about me when I don't give a blip about this other blogger.

I just thought that was so sad. I decided to remove the statement because it wasn't important to my point and made me realize that a LOT of bw are just not going to make it. If petty-butt black windbags in cyber space who have NO POWER (aside from what readers GIVE them) can put that kind of fear into a bw, she doesn't stand a chance in this world.

I'll tell y'all what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of a few insects and a few creepy crawly things. I'm never afraid of any person who does NOT have power.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Enlightened!

I'm so happy you returned! You said, "I just wanted to let you know that there are some sistas reading this blog who drink you, Lisa, Evia, and other posters words up like a sponge and with an open heart!"

Oooh, no! Don't do that! At least not with me; I've got my own issues and points of confusion! LOL! Anything I say is just one more thing to consider. It can be accepted or rejected. Sometimes, what I say should be rejected. Whatever is useful is from God. Only the mistakes are mine.

You said, "I was actually a bit nervous about commenting because the women here are so sharp and I also had to really digest what you were saying."

I'm so happy you joined the conversation. I am NOT a guru. I'm just somebody who's hosting the conversations here. I learn a LOT from the readers. Often, I learn that I'm the one who is in error!

Please don't feel intimidated and shy away from the conversations for that reason. I value every reader's input. Even if I happen to disagree, thinking through others' responses helps me organize my thoughts.
_____________________

Evia,

There's a quote from Mahatma Gandhi: "Fear has its use but cowardice has none."

You said, "I don't want these other women to speak out to support me because it will be recorded and reported to my adversaries and these bw WILL be attacked by these petty-butt other female bloggers, rabid bm, and commenters for being one of "Evia's supporters." That's about as bad as it gets for a lot of bw who read our sites. A lot of them are very afraid of the gang that attacked me.

They therefore don't feel free to drop in on various blogs and say what they want because they know they're being watched. I don't want their freedom to be curtailed online because they're already blocked enough offline."


See...you're much more compassionate than I am. LOL! I have a mean streak (that I try to resist) when people tick me off. And this type of disgraceful behavior fits the bill.

First of all, these cowardly women are not connecting the dots between their silence during the attacks against you and others AND their own oppression. Their own cowardice helps maintain their own oppression.

And secondly, my God...they can't open their mouths WHILE cloaked in online anonymity?! WTH? It doesn't get any better than that in terms of hiding!

Third, it's not like the people that they fear are doing anything for them! It's not like these DBRbm or their BW-enablers are going to retaliate by withdrawing some material support, because they weren't giving any support to begin with!

You said, "Honestly, Khadija, I was hesitant to even thank you for your kind words about me for a long while because I didn't and don't want you to come under attack for saying nice things about Evia. Even after I thanked you yesterday, I thought about how that might have been a mistake."

Thank you for your consideration, but: Guurl, pleeese. Rest assured that I come from a LONG line of women who were/are not "skeered" of useless people.

Now there ARE some people that I fear, such as "lifer" prisoner-clients who have nothing left to lose by killing me along with everybody else in the courtroom. Other than those types of scenarios, I just don't care. I believe in God. I believe that God punishes cowards. And the proof is that these women are cowering when they don't even have to!

I DON'T understand these cowardly women. And I guess at this point, I should stop talking about them before I say something truly unloving, unhelpful, and unkind. Hmmph.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

foreverloyal said...

You're not alone Enlightened, I can't reach Lisa's blog either. *long sigh thinking about all the wonderful new posts I don't get to read*

foreverloyal said...

One of the top posts at my blog is "Why an Interracial Relationships Blog?"


I suspect it is because it contains the word "Evia", LOL. I was already to selfish to fall for alot of the traps laid for many black women, and I had to give her and Halima props for explaining these things. I had no idea or perhaps a very vague idea.
For instance, when black women said they just didn't find white guys attractive, I just took it at face value. I never thought there could be other issues underlying such statements.

Some of my readers expressed similar views.

JaliliMaster said...

I agree with you Khadija, as far as I'm concerned, the so-called Black Elite are irrelevant. To anybody. Get the average net worth of those in this group, then get the average net worth of white elites, compare and contrast. One would find out that these Black Elites aren't really worth much. Remember, those in the elite-class have old money, sometimes really old. It branches out, and one doesn't even notice it. As for the black elite, the 'old money' was from no more than a hundred years ago, alot of them the descendants of those who were able to buy themselves out of slavery. But they were by no means rich. Even I could tell without blinking that B & m Obama were not among the Black elite. The white media was pretending as if they were. That alone, should tell you how inconsequential the Black elite is. They have no power, and control nothing. The only place I give them credit is that they seem to benefit, irrespective of which party is in the white house. Other than that.....?

Aabaakawad said...

@Khadija

About the women who use this material but dont speak up. Its basic human nature to seek approval. while logicly the trolls cant hurt them,it still takes a certain amount of courage to confront the trolls. The hurt the trolls cause is inside the heads of these silent listeners, as the nasty ppl press the buttons and pull the levers in their minds that bind them back up in their learned hopelessness and pain.

You understand the problems, but you have not drowned in them for a lifetime. It does not take very much to pull out the despair all over again. These are PTSD women, and the vulnerabilty is profound at this point in their progress.

Khadija, I admire you, but you need to understand that you have been blessed with a warrior spirit and you came out of a relatively safe environment. You are not normative.

Merely reading and absorbing this information puts many women at the very edge of what they can tolerate in psychic pain. The hope is that they get past that, but this phase in the process can not be skipped over. It has to be endured. Then comes the strength.

If you care, and I can't believe you would put such effort effort in this if you didn't, try to approach this from the standpoint of what works and what is possible. Shaming only inhibits their progress.

Of what use is a newborn baby? A baby grows up eventually and together with others raises new babies. And so the human race continues.

We might at this moment be present at the birth of a transforming movement. Don't strangle it out of frustration with its current weakness. The silent followers at this stage need nurturing and encouragement. As they build on that, and tentatively speak up, pull them in. Listen to each one, and you will feel when there is enough strength there in an individual that they can b asked to try to do the hard stuff.

Wishing you progress Khadija, and PROGRESS to those who have not found their voice.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Regarding the black elite, I have thought of it this way, that they had their roots in the black community, when the black community was more segregated, and many of them saw themselves as part of the black community for that reason, where they were looked upon as an elite, but still within their own narrow social group.

Perhaps they had no choice but to remain in the black community, since not all would have been able to access the white elite, again, because of segregation and discrimination.

But with integration, there is no need it seems, for many of them to have any ties to the black community. They have options now to compete within the white elite and at the same time segregate themselves in their own institutions.

Some other points, under segregation, they occupied what would be seen in the eyes of whites as upper middle class professions within their own little niches in the black community.

They stood out for that reason alone. But with integration and more blacks gaining access to the education that would gain them professional stature, what differentiated them is that they had been members of a black elite, upper middle class and upper class for much longer.

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said...

@Khadija, Reverend Lisa, Evia, Pioneer Valley Woman, Destouet
*********************************

Praise be to the Master of the Universe(Takbeer) and Praise be to Allah, who guides people to ways of peace,and safety. I half to be honest: I HATE blogging lol! There is so much mischief, and madness going on but you all have demonstrated consistently that there are few angels out there who are sincerely trying to empower people. How can justice be evil? How can justice be wrong? How can justice be hated?--Accept by the ones who are content with seeing you ( in this case bw) in a state of humialtion.

My blogging journey started on the Muslim blogsphere. That's where I met Khadija... So I'd like to say:

Khadija-- May Allah s.w.t. bless you for reaching out to me with respect, compassion, empathy, and wisdom. My experience in the Sunni community has been awful, and I had given up on fellow-shipping period. I had given up friendship period. You met me at a time when I was going through an internal transition--since landing on ARM's blog, I started to vigorous question, research, etc things instead of blindly following folks in the so called ummah. Your fellowship has been INSTRUMENTAL, AND LIFE SAVOR for me, my daughter, and even my marriage. Alhamdillah.

Destouet--Your work is also inspiring, and humbling for me. It is inspiration to read about another foster who is living well, and is happy in life. As you know this is not the norm.

Reverend Lisa & Pioneer Valley: Woman, reading your work has opened up a new form of introspection for me. You two encourage people to ask the hard questions, reflect, and take action.

Evia: Your work is also helpful to me. I plan to tell my daughter, and any subsequent children the truth about our status. Truth be told, if I would have known this information when I was younger, and had certain resources, I would have made RADICALLY different choices with my life. When you know better you do better. Also, I think some of the anger at you is becuase some of us are struggling with low self-esteem, depression, etc.

Excuse my spelling or grammatical errors, I'm on my way to work.

Have a great week ladies.

Keep going! I'm MIA because I'm practicing what I preach, and working on myself.

One last thing, why can't people just disagree with out the bullying, violence, and threats?
Just crazy.

Peace and blessings

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

@ All encouragers

It is SO very important to encourage! I think Khadija's call to action about gratitude is very timely.

I have had PLENTY of ingrates at my blog forum ...showing up with hostility and funky attitudes just because their mentality was being challenged...and the irony is that they were so deeply offended at what they were reading but kept showing up several times a day!!

Pure foolishness.

I am taking a MUCH different stance now against lurkers who show up to take, take, take and contribute nothing... as well as those who show up at my forum being inappropriate.

Khadija, we do NEED to enforce collective accountability for pettiness and shadiness and selfishness.

Rev. PWV, your comment about the black elite is true.

I should mention that quite a few people refer to the "power base" of the black elite from the lens of "well where ARE THEY positioned in this country?" as if the U.S. is the only place for the black elite to establish influence. How many black elite serve on corporate boards of major foreign corporations? How many are major stock holders in major corporations?

Power is not all about what a group is doing in the U.S....not at all.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

goodness80 said...

I love the black women empowerment blogs, so keep bringing it. I don't often comment because I am working out my salvation, but I hear and attempt to incorporate the information they you all give.

Most AA in this country are asleep, scared or content in their situations. I believe what you are doing will ignite a movement of AA women who know enough is enough and will no longer stand for the old okey doke. These women will not be the majority, but a majority is not needed only true commitment to self preservation for ourselves and our children.

Thank all of you for being on the front line for AA women when many just don't know how.

Khadija said...

Aabaakawad,

Before I say anything else, let me repeat some of what I told you previously:

"Let me make this clear to you and any other non-Black readers: You are welcome to participate within certain boundaries.

To skip forward [I'll explain in detail later in this reply]: You are welcome to participate using the same respectful, self-editing that you probably use when discussing Jewish issues with Jewish people. [That is, assuming that you are not Jewish yourself.]

You are perfectly welcome to comment, and participate as long as it's NOT an effort to TELL us how we should think about racial matters that pertain to US. This is not a forum to debate with non-Blacks about OUR business. You are welcome to ask questions, as you have done. You are welcome to ask for clarification of why a commenter believes as they do.

Be aware that nobody is under any obligation to invest time in answering questions from outsiders. Readers are free to do so if they wish. They are free not to do so. I'll do it if I'm in the mood (LOL!), but keep in mind that educating non-Blacks is not my mission profile for this blog.

The problem that often occurs with non-Blacks jumping into many of these Black blog discussions is that it becomes a form of dominance. Many Whites feel perfectly comfortable telling us about OUR experiences. And telling us how we "should" perceive OUR experiences regarding racial matters.

This is disrespectful and unhelpful.


I would suggest the following thought experiment:

If you are not Jewish, have you ever questioned or debated with Jews about THEIR perceptions of matters related to their Holocaust? [I'm not talking about debates/questions about Israeli/Zionist politics or policies, I'm talking about matters directly related to their Holocaust.]

If you are not Jewish, have you ever questioned or debated with them about how they choose to define membership in THEIR ethnic/relgious group? Have you ever questioned or debated with them about how they choose to interpret the behavior of children from religiously mixed marriages?

People take liberties with AAs' concerns and sensibilities that they would never think to do with others.

So here's a quick guide for outsiders' boundaries here: If you wouldn't do it, say it, or challenge it regarding Jewish people, it's probably equally inappropriate to do it, etc. with us.

If you don't go around telling Jews who they should or should not consider Jewish, then it's not appropriate for you to try to define membership in OUR group.

If you don't go around telling Jews that they shouldn't be offended by actions and statements they perceive to be anti-Semitic, then it's not appropriate for you to try to give us lectures about what we should or should not perceive as racist.

LOTS of people seem to be able to figure this out when it comes to other people's sensibilities. Folks can figure it out when it comes to us as well. It's not that hard. However, part of the problem is that most 'mixed company' discussions surrounding race tend to be dishonest. Another part of the problem is the AAs tend not to enforce boundaries. There are boundaries here."

__________________________

I see that it didn't take long at all for your repeated, univited INTRUSIONS into these discussions to turn into attempted dominance and disrespect.

You said, "If you care, and I can't believe you would put such effort effort in this if you didn't, try to approach this from the standpoint of what works and what is possible. Shaming only inhibits their progress."

First of all, it is not your place to try to instruct me as to how I should perceive, and respond to, the actions of other BW.

Second, it's quite easy for an outsider such as yourself to advocate letting adult BW slide with inappropriate, cowardly, disgraceful behavior. Their cowardice is NOT costing YOU anything. It's not creating an atmosphere that puts YOU and others like YOU in direct danger.


You said, "Khadija, I admire you, but you need to understand that you have been blessed with a warrior spirit and you came out of a relatively safe environment. You are not normative."

So now you're telling me what's "normative" among MY people. On top of that, you're telling me that I'm not normative because I'm emotionally stable and brave.

DON'T waste my time with a response.

DON'T intrude upon these discussions again.

DON'T come back.


Peace.
Khadija

Khadija said...

Hello there, SisterSeeking/Miriam!

Thank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it. Whatever is useful is from God. Only the mistakes are mine.
___________________

Hello there, Lisa!

You said, "I am taking a MUCH different stance now against lurkers who show up to take, take, take and contribute nothing... as well as those who show up at my forum being inappropriate."

Note to the silent audience: I leave my blog open for non-participating lurkers and anonymous commenters. Other bloggers might not have the same policy about these things. It IS non-reciprocal behavior to take, take, and take from a discussion forum without EVER putting anything back in by way of participation.

Lisa, you said, "Khadija, we do NEED to enforce collective accountability for pettiness and shadiness and selfishness."

YES, I agree!
___________________

Greetings, Goodness80!

You said, "Thank all of you for being on the front line for AA women when many just don't know how."

You're welcome!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

On the subject of gratitude, I want to express my deep, deep appreciation for Halima who I haven't mentioned or thanked of late on my site or thanked enough for her role in my continuing to write essays encouraging bw to date and marry Quality men in the global village, among other aspects of my message.

I also want to set the record straight. Halima is the actual PIONEER of this effort/movement, though I'm often given credit for being "the one who started it all." I wasn't. Halima, with her brainy, very controlled self, was the one who inspired me to start blogging about bw in interracial relationships. Her knowledge and dedication were plain in that she had already written a very well researched book about the topic and was speaking out publically about the need for it. If not for her, I would never have blogged about my interracial marriage.

Nothing occurs in a vacuum; we all tremendously impact each other.

In 2006, when I started blogging, I didn't even know that being interracially married WAS such a BIG issue as it is for bw until I read her blog where she encouraged bw to date wm if they chose to do so, as IF they needed to be told. See, I didn't realize they needed to be told or encouraged or supported. I didn't know that anything was stopping them or what exactly it was. I had encountered a chunk of bw who refused to date wm, but it hadn't occurred to me that they needed to be ***encouraged*** or supported to do so. I had assumed they just weren't that interested. That's why I couldn't understand why some of them were envious of me for being happily married to a wm. I figured that if they wanted to get married to a Quality man like him, then they should just date men from all groups and find the best man they could, as I had done. It was really puzzling to me--UNTIL I encounterd Halima's blog and read her book. I didn't realize all the roadblocks that were there for bw or that bw ***thought*** were there until I started reading her blog. It was very soon afterwards that some of my own puzzling experiences with black women's reaction to my marriage became more clear and then slid into focus. Her blog gave me a whole bunch of "Aha" moments and that's what motivated me to start writing.

So, this is just to shine the light on Halima and extend my deepest gratitude to her for her mighty intellect, her calm, poised, focused, and admirable demeanor when all the various Ikettes and Ikes have attacked her and had her under heavy fire and her dedication to this cause. I deeply appreciate all the long and logical pep talks she's given me during the several times I've been on the verge of quitting this work and I thank her for what she's done to move a lot of bw along toward actualizing their hopes and dreams. If this is a war, Halima is a real general--unruffled, patient, courageous and determined. I am so grateful.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Evia!

THANK YOU for sharing that! I feel that it's very important to document our history, especially while it's in progress.

I hope y'all budding archivists out there are listening. *Smile* You just heard a first-hand account from a pioneer. As opposed to somebody else, with or without a hostile agenda, rewriting our history.

And let's be clear---this IS an important part of our collective story as AA women. Ideas are intellectual achievements that change the course of history.

It's important for those of us who survive the coming demise of the AA collective to know AND remember how the call for BW to "survive and thrive" came into existence.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Thanks for the shout-outs, ladies! I noted in an earlier post under table talk for activists, that I began commenting and blogging once I got tired of seeing "Ike and the Ikettes" spew their rhetoric aimed not for the purpose of encouraging black women to think critically, but to shut down the debates by falling back on the old hypnotic languages of black unity and so forth.

LISA VAZQUEZ said...

Hey there Khadija!

{raised black glove}

Thank you for your enforcement of boundaries.

The problem I see with many of our sistas online is that they SOOO DEEPLY want to be perceived as fair and welcoming to all.

We don't have to be welcoming to all. There is nothing wrong with women having a discussion for women. There is nothing sexist about it at all.

There is nothing wrong with black people discussing black issues with those who are directly experiencing those issues. There is nothing racist at all.

It is such a manipulative ploy for white people to scream racism whenever there are boundaries in place because you see...white privilege has permitted them the mentality of thinking they are ENTITLED to be everywhere and anywhere they want and are ENTITLED to butt in everywhere and anywhere they want.

Frankly, in this country...it has been true..they have been able to. Therefore, they take that white privilege mindset and transfer THAT into the blogosphere as well.

I have had some highly ignorant and gallingly racist white people tell me things like..."you're not the norm! you're so intelligent!" and "you're not the norm! you're so refined!"

When I read the comment that you're not the norm because you are from a safe and stable environment, I knew I didn't have to respond because I knew you would.

And you did.

Black women need to understand WHY we can not let these intrusions remain unconfronted.

We DESERVE and are entitled to online forums to work out solutions among ourselves. We do not have to turn our blogs into town hall meetings.

We do not have to be guilt-tripped into thinking that if we don't then we are being racist and exclusionary.

Everyone who steps into these forums who CLAIMS to be an ally of black women is not.

There's sooo much naivety that I see online with those who are still learning to be activists.

All anyone needs to do is show sympathy to black causes and SUDDENLY they are part of the discussion....no vetting? This pattern MUST cease, my sistas. It must.

If a Princeton troll says "I am so offended...just like you!" then THAT sentiment does not make ANYONE an ally of our cause.

Sometimes, helpfulness is from a place of PURE ARROGANCE.

We must become very serious about vetting all who attempt to step into our solution-building process.

Continue to blow the trumpet!

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

roslynholcomb said...

One of wm efforts and I am not a expert on these blogs is to identify some of the behavior patterns of some ww toward wm.

And this benefits us how? Don't get caught up, it's a Jedi Mind Trick. This sounds like a battle between wm and ww and has nothing to do with us and further cannot benefit us in any way. As I've said before, I've encountered white men with this mindset in real life and it's clear after very short acquaintance that they are misogynists who hate women period. Most of them worship Asian women because they believe all manner of stereotypical nonsense about them. They'll go to a poor country and buy themselves an Asian bride. When those women come to this country and decide that being an indentured servant is not to their liking, the men suddenly find themselves hating Asian women as well. I dealt with quite a few of those cases when I was a social worker. The last thing we need is that type of negative energy.

I remember a very illuminating conversation I had with one of these anti-ww bloggers. He actually asked me why I wouldn't be in favor of the elevation of WM. I must admit, my response sounded like something Scooby-Do would say. Arrruuuu? It's clear what those people are about and it's certainly not empowering black women.

I want nothing to do with a man of any race who puts women down. Black women can be uplifted without denigrating or belittling others. It's simply not necessary, nor does it work.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Lisa!

You said, "The problem I see with many of our sistas online is that they SOOO DEEPLY want to be perceived as fair and welcoming to all.

We don't have to be welcoming to all. There is nothing wrong with women having a discussion for women. There is nothing sexist about it at all.

There is nothing wrong with black people discussing black issues with those who are directly experiencing those issues. There is nothing racist at all."


No, it's not racist or sexist. I WOULDN'T CARE IF IT WAS! Self-preservation is the first law of nature. We are ENTITLED to work among ourselves to survive and thrive.

It bothers me that so many Black people place a higher priority on not offending others than on their own group's survival! Meanwhile, nobody else consults us to see how we feel about their group-advancement efforts.

It reminds me of silly debates I had years ago with some other Black folks. What I found galling what that most of these slaves didn't have problems with the Nation of Islam based on their OWN objections. It was pure cowardice and fear of angering Whites that caused them to say derogatory things about the NOI.

I couldn't believe it. As I told some of these servile fools, the criminals that the Nation of Islam reformed might have been on a collision course with them or one of their loved ones. For all they knew, the criminal that the NOI reformed might have otherwise been on his way to hit THEM in the head, or do a driveby that killed THEM, or a loved one.

And these silly conversations took place during the time when the NOI had cleaned up a violence and drug-infested housing project in Washington, D.C. Hmmph!

What I find so disturbing is how so many of us are having amazingly retrograde interactions with the White intruders who gatecrash our gatherings. It's like something out of the 1950s: the servile, child-like notion that any smiling White face is a "good" White person.

And this servile attitude was manifested in many nominally Black integrationist organizations. I recall hearing a Malcolm X speech where he ridiculed the NAACP for not being able to "advance" a Black man to the head of that organization. If I remember correctly, the NAACP had WHITE presidents until the 1970s!

I would like the audience to consider this Wikipedia entry about one of the NAACP's past presidents:

"Kivie Kaplan (1904 – 1975) was a Jewish-American businessman and philanthropist from Boston, Massachusetts.

He served as president of the NAACP from 1966 to 1975.
He, along with his wife Emily, fought in support of civil rights for all. He was one of the last in a long line of American Jews who held a leadership role in African American civil rights groups."

We were foolish and naive enough to allow Whites to set policy for, and CONTROL, what were supposed to be "our" organizations.

Meanwhile, how many ethnic White organizations (such as the Anti-Defamation League) have EVER had Black folks setting policy for them, or controlling these groups? NONE, to my knowledge. And there's nothing wrong with that absence of Black folks RUNNING other people's ethnic organizations. We're the ones that are fools to allow outsiders to invade and control our stuff.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Halima said...

Thanks Khadija and thanks Evia for your kind words, I am very touched!

Khadija said...

Halima,

You're welcome, and THANK YOU for all the work that you have done!

Peace and blessings,
Khadija

mekare said...

To continue with Evia said, on the subject of gratitude I would like to thank Evia for her well put together essays which helped me change my life.

When I cam across Evia's blog, I was only looking for a place where black women were treated with fairness and not discussed in a negative manner.

Evia's essays helped me realize the truth about the "black community." She reminded me of my beauty and worth. Her essays helped me through a painful transition in my life and her warnings helped me make the decision to move from the black residential area that I lived in.

I also want to thank Lorraine for her friendship and support in finding Mr. Right.

You guys have made a lot of difference in my life.

(pardon the typos)

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,


I would like to thank you for all that you do. This is an amazing blog and my life is enriched and improved because of it.


I want to thank Evia, Halima, Rev Lisa, Sara, CW, PioneerValleyWoman,Pinky and all of the other fabulous and brilliant women out there who are so courageously working for the uplift and empowerment of Black Women.


I get so much from these blogs. I have gained so much information, so much to think about - I think of this as my mentorship of sorts because I never have gotten this level of knowledge in real life- even from people who say they care about me. So I really appreciate all of you from the bottom of my heart.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

Thank you for your kind words. I truly appreciate it.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,

You are welcome and you so deserve it! You are awesome!


Re Feminism:

Evia said:
“I'm just amazed at the super-intelligent bw who will meekly get back into her place when she's called a 'feminist.' SMH
Maybe this is due to deep-seated anger/envy towards the feminist movemement and ww ? “

PVW said:
“…the mainstream fixated upon the more radical type of feminist and branded that type as representative of all feminists: man haters, lesbians, unnatural, etc., etc.
So for black women eager to appeal to black men and fearful of being rejected by the community, the feminist label put them back into their box.”


Khadija said:
“I believe the reason for this is that many BW secretly feel that the "feminist" label is a thinly-veiled code word for "maybe she's a lesbian." And Lord knows how bigoted against gays and lesbians most Black folks are, including BW. So, we're deathly afraid of anything that might lead to being slapped with that label.”



You know when I read the original question Evia posed the first words that jumped into my head were “manhating lesbian”. I thought it sounded silly and simplistic, but these comments are affirming.

I can remember some of my family members (male of course) ranting at one time or another about how lesbians started feminism. Then are men who bash BW offline and on whenever they talk about BW empowerment issues by throwing this around.


Evia said:
“Bw play a major role in the oppression of other bw.”

I have heard this before. I have had WW some feminists, some not to point this out to me when speaking of women in general. I think maybe some BW don’t understand this when dealing with other BW.

Aphrodite said...

Evia
“I, likewise, chose to separate myself from the parasites and predators early in my life, and lo and behold, I discovered that more than a few bw were/are angry at and envious of me!

Isn't bw's anger mostly at themselves for being so easily conned and so easily used? Isn't it more a case of bw ***projecting*** their self-anger onto other women (of whatever skin shade) who've played their cards better?”


I think that some of this is the result of magical thinking & learned helplessness.

I feel that if a BW has the awareness to realize that other women are playing their cards well, despite whatever her initial feelings were, I think she would also have the awareness to begin to play her cards differently and shift things in her personal life in her favor, thus neutralizing any negative feelings.

I don’t think BW see other women as ‘playing cards’. I think they just think that other women are inherently “special/different/better” somehow. I think many BW don’t think they have cards of value – since many see themselves as defined by and thorough BM – who are consistently giving them negative messages about themselves. I also think some don’t recognize that they have cards at all much less that they are supposed to be playing them.

I think that strategy, long term thinking, developing and using skills are not a part of the consciousness of most BW when it comes to dating and marriage.

I know for me up until recently this was true. I am just now learning these things. I was never taught this. My brain has been operating on 2 cylinders when it should have been operating on 12. Which brings me to the learned helplessness.

I was given the impression that men and women getting together, having relationships, and marrying was something that just happened out of the wide blue sky. That being female was just enough. I wasn’t taught that women played an active part in securing the type of man they wanted. And I certainly wasn’t taught that a woman should be using her brain during the dating process or that dating even had a purpose. As a matter of fact I was taught the opposite and when I wanted to do something proactive to change my circumstances I was frequently discouraged from doing so.

When I would have crying jags and hissy fits about why am I not dating, why have I not been in a relationship, what is wrong with me and more importantly what can I do? I was told point blank- do nothing.

That women didn’t do anything to get men/married. That I shouldn’t even be thinking about it in that way. That me doing something would make me look desperate and that would scare men away. That I am being needy and obsessive in getting upset over this. That I want it too badly and that’s why its not happening. That there is somebody for everybody- just be patient. That this is something I have no control over and I can’t rush love - it will find me when I am not looking for it and least expect it, and that everything comes in divine time and divine order.

So all the people around me men and women alike gave me the idea that women do nothing to get men/married and that creates a sense of helplessness and eventually hopelessness. Since no woman wants to be seen as desperate, needy, or insane and she doesn’t want to scare men away – you put your head down and keep waiting on the divine season to finally come when the perfect guy will whisk you off your feet and you live happily ever after.

And again if everyone is saying this- from the pulpit, to TV, to all your friends and neighbors, relatives, and coworkers – how do you challenge that? You look like the crazy one and when you have been hearing, perceiving that all your life from everyone around you– you don’t even question it- you take it for granted as normal, a fact, the truth.

So I think when a BW sees another BW or any other woman who has a different level of awareness I don’t think she even perceives it as such – she just thinks she is seeing unicorns and since she is not nor ever will be one – she can lash out. She can’t make the connections that this is a game, that she has cards to play, and that she can play her hand and get the same result.

Aphrodite said...

@ PVW

“Aren't they already making headway into various communities in the South, where blacks traditionally had a significant presence? What does that say? The black population is not estimated to increase by much.”


I am noticing this big time in my home town. When I got back here I was shocked at how many Mexicans were everywhere. I was shocked to even see black owned businesses with Mexicans working in the back. I was tempted to call immigration a few times on some of these black owned businesses out of spite and hatefulness. I hate to say this outloud, but I ticked me off that I am going out of my way to patronize a black business sometimes and they got Maria and Lupe as employees when Sheqwan and Latasha with 3 kids each need it more. I don’t see them in any white owned businesses at all, but Mexicans are taking over the service industries here and are slowly making inroads into government. I called an agency the other day on behalf of my mom and Maria answered the phone. I felt queasy bc I know it is just a matter of time before our city council, the mayor, a congressman – even the governor will be Mexican.

I have also had secret fantasies of calling immigration on my neighbors. Before I started looking into land I wanted the house that they moved into. It was owned by an elderly BW who died.

When the housing market first crashed people who owned homes here started dumping them left and right and houses were going for fractions of their value. I am not lying. My lazy bum brother’s ex bought two homes and paid 5k and 7k respectively. The owner lived out of town and wanted to be rid of them. One needs a roof and the other needs some plumbing, but outside that and some minor cosmetic improvements they are structurally sound and in good condition. The guy who moved in across the street paid 30k cash for an all brick 3 bedroom. But I digress…

Before the lady died she had put in hardwood floors, had updated the electrical wiring, and had central air and heat installed (the unit was stolen), and had a new roof put on. Of course I would have had to check it out, but her children only wanted 10k for it. It was a starter 2 bedroom 1.5 bath and the next thing I know there are 7 Mexicans (a whole bunch of men and 1 woman) living in it and Maria throws her baby’s dirty diapers outside. Our neighbors across the street have tried to talk to her about why it is not cute to throw soiled diapers in the yard, over the fence etc…we’ll see how it goes.

But I want that house. I can do so much with that. I can split it and rent it. I can move in and get a roommate or I can flip it when the prices go up. I still want that house.


‘Oh, they know black women are human. They, the white racists and the sexist black men just see black women as being an inferior type, to be controlled while they uplift themselves. Zora Neale Hurston argued in the 1920s/1930s that black women were "the mules of the earth..."’

That still stings so much to hear.


Thanks for the examples re hanging on - on the individual level.

Aphrodite said...

@ Khadija

“My first priority is to "do no harm" with these discussions. I've noticed how some readers are taking Rev. Lisa's and Evia's terminology of "vetting" and plugging these hip, new terms into their same OLD thought patterns.”



Now I know that you are not just brilliant, but incredibly wise. It seems as if a person who wishes to truly grasp this needs something that jars/catapults them into a whole new way of thinking/sense of awareness because you can’t truly solve/ implement a new strategy with the same mindset that inadvertently supports the problem(s).

When I read this I thought about all those ‘self reflection’ pushers and how they really are very clever. I am sure that they know that self reflection is not the answer (in the way they use it) and if I humor them and assume that it is – then on some level I am sure that they are aware that the thinking patterns of most BW won’t allow them to come to any productive healthy conclusion (on their own) because of the above reason.

You are incredibly wise.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

Among MANY accurate descriptions of the "typical" mindset that is encouraged among BW regarding dating and marriage, you said:

"I was given the impression that men and women getting together, having relationships, and marrying was something that just happened out of the wide blue sky. That being female was just enough. I wasn’t taught that women played an active part in securing the type of man they wanted.

And I certainly wasn’t taught that a woman should be using her brain during the dating process or that dating even had a purpose. As a matter of fact I was taught the opposite and when I wanted to do something proactive to change my circumstances I was frequently discouraged from doing so."


What you described is the story of how I wasted my 20s being involved with men who were not suitable for my purposes. I didn't have a strategy because I didn't know that I needed to have a strategy.

And the advice that genuinely well-meaning older relatives gave me was poison because it was obsolete. In my mother's day, BW didn't need a strategy to get married. They only needed a strategy to get the best possible husband out of many available and decent candidates.

What I find frustrating about trying to warn the younger BW I know is that many of them reject the idea of strategizing to get married because it doesn't seem romantic to them. [Translation: The idea sounds desperate to them. Even after I point out that strategizing is a large part of why most women from other races get married.]

On the other hand, I suspect that there may be a lot of depression, exhaustion, and resignation underlying this behavior on their part. {sigh}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

@ Enlightened

Regarding black people's need to "reach back and help and help", that is SPOT ON. I remember I took a sociology course in college and we were discussing class issues. I got up and asked my predominantly white classmates if they ever felt any sense of responsibility to help those among them who were poor. The answer was a RESOUNDING "NO". I know that's not hardly accurate of the white community in general, but it was eye opening for me.”


This is so funny because all I have ever heard was “don’t forget where you come from” – from everybody! You need to “give back” and this is all while I really haven’t gotten anywhere yet and still struggling to get there by myself– as if I am supposed to protect and provide for everyone.

I have people in my extended family who hate my guts to the core – male and female middle aged aunts and uncles because they think I have forgotten where I come from. The women seem to think that I think I am Miss Ann and lazy because of the few little crumbs that I have given myself to be good to myself and because I started refusing just any old job. I had several cousins say repeatedly to me and about me: I think I am white recently – which shocked me because we are grown and she is older than I am. I thought this was some immature school yard mess.

One of them just got married and her husband couldn’t even afford to put her in her own house – which I think is a disgrace before God – I love you baby, lets get married, and move in with your elderly parents. But anyway…

While I haven’t been very smart with my resources with some family members I always knew to avoid them like the plague bc they have become increasingly hateful -laughing in my face and backbiting behind my back. It can be tense and thick when I am around them and I always feel that I am in physical danger. So I avoid them at all costs and now the hatred has become mutual.

Khadija said...

Aphrodite,

Thank you for your kind words. {blush} But let me stress that I am NOT a guru; and I am NOT particularly wise. Smart, yes. Clever, yes. Wise? I don't know about that.

Believe me, I'm dealing with a LOT of self-created problems like so many others among us. Starting with wasting almost 20 years of my life in a poorly-chosen career path. A poorly-chosen career path that is stressing me out AND is a source of MANY, DEEP regrets.

Part of the reason why I started this blog is that I wanted to feel like I had made some small positive contribution after all. Wanting to "help my people" [Good God Almighty, it sounds idiotic just saying this phrase out loud] was why I originally chose the career path that I picked.

Well, all of that has been tasting like ashes in my mouth for YEARS at this point. Oh...I've helped a few people along the way. But this is not at all what I thought it would be when I started. I was a fool. I should have chased after money. I almost can't believe that I've wasted this much time with this. Hmmph.

Anyway, I'm saying all of this to say that I'm learning helpful things from you and the other discussion participants. Things that I hadn't previously figured out on my own. So, whatever benefit exitst here is mutual. THANK YOU.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

@ Khadija,


"Kivie Kaplan (1904 – 1975) was a Jewish-American businessman and philanthropist from Boston, Massachusetts.

He served as president of the NAACP from 1966 to 1975. He, along with his wife Emily, fought in support of civil rights for all. He was one of the last in a long line of American Jews who held a leadership role in African American civil rights groups."

We were foolish and naive enough to allow Whites to set policy for, and CONTROL, what were supposed to be "our" organizations.”




Ok this is insane! I don't understand this at all. I had a friend who wanted to be a business partner once and although I love her like a play cousin I told her emphatically no! And it is hard for me to say no to people! I mean I put my blood, sweat, tears, and money into this and I am not about to share power with anyone with something I built for me.

So how could BP put give that level of power to a white person with something they worked and died to create?

I never knew this at all.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Aphrodite,

So all the people around me men and women alike gave me the idea that women do nothing to get men/married and that creates a sense of helplessness and eventually hopelessness. Since no woman wants to be seen as desperate, needy, or insane and she doesn’t want to scare men away – you put your head down and keep waiting on the divine season to finally come when the perfect guy will whisk you off your feet and you live happily ever after.

Khadija:

What you described is the story of how I wasted my 20s being involved with men who were not suitable for my purposes. I didn't have a strategy because I didn't know that I needed to have a strategy.

My reply:

I've seen this also, with younger unmarried female relatives.

Our mothers, as Khadija said, didn't have to have a strategy, because getting married was a given, so the models us younger women have had are obsolete. Young black women need a strategy today, but the ones they are pursuing are not empowering.

I see it among young college-aged women. They go to college, and the first thing they do is go to the black student organization and become members, attending all the social events and so forth. Quite often, this is what their parents did when they were younger, but the imbalances might not have existed then.

Yet, these organizations are populated today primarily by women, since they outnumber the men on the campuses. These are the men they are competing for, and they don't even look outside of the narrow group.

Nonetheless, the "black unity" ideology pervades there and in some of the black studies classes, so they are already being indoctrinated into an ideology created by men for their own purposes. Who knows, they probably even brought it with them from hom. They are told that women's history is all about white women, lesbianism and "bashing" men.

So for example, I have taught on occasion, black studies type classes, but black men and women are the focus, not black men only. Yet, I have found that when I talk about topics relating to black women, black men who were so interested in all we had to discuss before, have literally "shut down" before my eyes, or they just didn't show up. By their body language, they make it clear that they have no interest whatsover.

As I mentioned earlier, when they do take the women's history classes, they come in with the same kind of attitude, where they have no interest in engaging with the subject matter, and make it clear that as men, they "don't care".

Yet, these are the black men the young black women want to impress? So many of the young women then don't take any classes where women might be the focus, ie., women's history or women's studies, because they have already been indoctrinated that they have to please the few men who are there, rather than seizing their own power and creating their own agenda in their lives and in the group!

They act as though they have no history as women to think about, because black women are not women, I suppose, since women's history and women's studies are supposedly all about white women.

Aphrodite:

I can remember some of my family members (male of course) ranting at one time or another about how lesbians started feminism. Then are men who bash BW offline and on whenever they talk about BW empowerment issues by throwing this around.

My reply:

And men who say things like this, speaking out of total ignorance, are the ones who apparently have the wisdom? These are the people black women are listening to?

Again, this is the result of black women not learning their own history as women. They might think the same way the men do, because they too don't have the knowledge.

Beyond that, they are afraid to speak out, especially if want to please the men and especially if they don't have the tools/knowledge to argue effectively.

As I said, that is why I began commenting on the blogs and starting my own.

Evia said...

@ Aphrodite re:

I was given the impression that men and women getting together, having relationships, and marrying was something that just happened out of the wide blue sky. That being female was just enough. I wasn’t taught that women played an active part in securing the type of man they wanted.

And I certainly wasn’t taught that a woman should be using her brain during the dating process or that dating even had a purpose. As a matter of fact I was taught the opposite and when I wanted to do something proactive to change my circumstances I was frequently discouraged from doing so."



Wow! Just Wow! The brain is the MOST important organ when a woman is dealing with ANY man.

@ Khadija re:

And the advice that genuinely well-meaning older relatives gave me was poison because it was obsolete. In my mother's day, BW didn't need a strategy to get married. They only needed a strategy to get the best possible husband out of many available and decent candidates.

SMH Re these 2 comments that y'all made. I was given knowledge about getting AND keeping a Quality man and how to avoid the parasite-predator types as a young girl/pre-teen. In my neck of the woods, they didn't take it for granted that a man would do the right thing by a woman. My mother and grandmother could have written the rulebook on this topic and it would still be fresh and on target because the basic nature of men and women and the "rules of interaction" have not changed much at all in the last 5000 years. It just appears on the surface that they have. Grandma and Mom didn't write the book, but they passed on many of these rules on to me.

Also, I saw right before my eyes how the silly girls who didn't follow Mom and Grandma's rules got used for sex (by BLACK males) and/or got otherwise used and abused and/or trashed everytime and by BLACK males. So I knew that Mom and Grandma were savvy.

It's so ironic, downright hypocritical but a shrewd move for bm to always have bw on the lookout for those 'sex-hound wm who only want a bw for sex.' LOL!!
I've got to give the 'brothas' their props. They have definitely succeeded in selling that fear tactic to bw, whereas they're obviously the ones who only want bw for sex and using bw for sex since 70% of AA women are unpartnered and many of these women are definitely sexing BLACK males.

Maybe these rules weren't necessary in certain locales. But they obviously would have been valuable in other locales. I can't believe that only my Mom and Grandmom knew this info. Instead, I think that the vast majority of bw have been dumbed down due to PROTECTIONISM of bm. That's the BIGGIE. This is why we've got to continue to stress the need to pull the cover off bm so that bw can see what lurks underneath that sheet with MOST AA men and other bm with similar behaviors too.

If the bw empowerment advocates don't succeed in revealing what lurks beneath in the minds of selfish-narcissistic, user-abuser, parasite-predator bm, not much of what we do will matter much. Unsuspecting or magical thinking bw will continue to behave like 'lambs to the slaughter.' Also, when we pull back the cover, bw have got to have the courage to LOOK and SEE, which means they've got to have the WILL to connect the dots once and for all. Lots of bw are still going around in circles because they can't bring themselves to look beneath that sheet. They're looking at this prevalent sexist misogynist behavior of bm, but they refuse to see it for what it is; they cannot ACCEPT once and for all what they see and this is why these bw still get upset and shocked by bm's behavior. They therefore still expect for bm to behave in a "normal" way whereas the fact is that many bm have become the most formidable enemy that many bw will ever face.

I watch what individuals DO. Any individual of whatever race or gender who behaves like an enemy is an enemy to me. Likewise any individual of any race or gender who behaves like a friend or ally is accepted by me as such, but vetted continuously. I don't get upset and shocked with the various episodes of bm's foul behavior because I've ACCEPTED who the bulk of them are. I've ACCEPTED that the bulk of them don't care about or love bw because care and love are ACTIVE verbs. The bulk of them regard bw as less-thans or with disdain. I'm repeating this because bw need to hear this over and over to get rid of that rot in their brains that "brothas really do love the sistas."

Many bm will say they care about bw and love bw, but it doesn't matter what people say UNLESS it matches what they do. You've got to watch what they DO. This is one of the cardinal rules from my Mom and Grandmom's rulebook. I keep repeating this also.


Also, from the time I was 18, I've had the benefit of living my life with mostly non-AAs and one of my degrees is in comparative cultures. That has helped me tremendously to see this situation both on the macro and micro level since in addition to my degree, I also have a lifelong, passionate interest in this area. I've watched and watch everyday how the women of these other groups and cultures (that I've lived in) operate with men. I've seen that most of those women follow most of the same rules (with minor variations) from my Mom and Grandmom's rulebook when they're dealing with men or that those rules are stressed. These women learn to require a man to bring an equal amount to the table or more. So the value of those rules I learned as a girl have been reinforced by my experiences. I've seen that these rules have been passed down through generations to these girls and women. That's their culture in operation.

One of the rules that my Mom stressed was: "Don't ever love a man more than he loves you." This means that from the first moment of interacting with a man in the romantic realm, a woman must control her emotions so that she can behave in accordance with the way a man TREATS her. Only a foolish woman loses control of her emotions when dealing with ANY man before he has proven his value to her. Another rule is that "MOST people will take advantage of you (to one extent or another) if you allow them to do so." For ex., even my own kids would get over on me if I allow them to do so. LOL! That's basic human nature, so I EXPECT people to try to do that. So I've never lost control of my emotions with any man. If he started acting stupid or doing anything that was not in my favor, I could easily and quickly walk away. Being "crazy in love" or "falling in love" is definitely NOT the best basis for a wonderful committed relationship with a man anyway. That's simply infatuation/lust. It may turn into real love, but it's not the sole basis to decide to commit to a relationship.

For ex., I once had an AA man guitar teacher who I "fell in love" with, but this man had nothing to offer me except he knew how to play the guitar. Since I'd been raised to always look at what a man could offer me, I knew that the relationship was a temporary one from the getgo and I conducted myself with that always in mind. So a few weeks later, I fell out of love or out of lust, and easily walked away.

Also, Khadija, it seems that AA women are just not adapting fast enough to the death of the "prosperous black nation" dream. Either they don't believe the dream is dead or they're in shock that it happened so fast and are having problems playing 'catchup.' When you listen to the subtexts of some of their conversation, many of them still believe this "black nation" is possible. This is one of the main reasons why many of them have latched onto the Obamas. Four years from now, they will learn that they've just lost another 4 years of their lives engaging in magical thinking.

So probably, there needs to be honest discussions about this dream of the "prosperous and viable black America."

I am convinced that only those bw who re-brand and commit to live re-branded lives and all that that entails will thrive in the future. Hanging onto that old view of BLACKness will only cause them and their children to go down.

Sowelu said...

Thank you Khadija, Reverend Lisa, Evia, Pioneer Valley Woman, Destouet, CW, Halima, Pinky, and Sara. Ive learned so much from all of you. Ive never sat with other black women and talked about this kind of stuff. Im thinking about sharing this information with my mom since we are on better terms.Also with other young black women.

Lisa99 said...

Aphrodite, your comments about dating/relationships/marriage mirror my experience to a T. I could have written that myself.

Khadija, PVW, Evia... (especially Evia... you know you've helped me!): Your blogs have helped me SO much in shaking off the damaging beliefs that there was nothing that I could do if I wanted to marry well except "wait" and "pray" and "hope" that some great man would come along "in God's perfect time" (SMH).

Of course, notice that when that doesn't happen to BW and they get dangerously close to passing childbearing age, THEN they are told, "Well, it wasn't God's will that you marry/have children."

Why is there a cottage industry of books on singleness written BY and FOR black women? All by BW in their 40s talking about how fabulous their lives are as singles and how they're loving God and life and being the best aunt to their nieces and nephews! It's like they've forced themselves to zap their own desires away and put on a mask as this "sassy, single, satisfied" woman!

Luckily, there is still time for me. I am strategizing. I am actively working to marry well. I am NOT trying to waste time on this. I only speak about this to people who I know are on the same page because I don't care to be lectured or told that I am desperate. Meanwhile, these people KNOW of BW in their own families who are in their late 30s and have never married, yet they want to act like these are isolated cases or that God suddenly decided that he wants 70% of BW single but that other race women can marry.

I have also received positive comments on other forums I visit when I talk about this subject. Sure, there are the BW (many who are married SMH) who try to make me and others "simmer down" when we point out that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark when it comes to BW and singleness, but I get PLENTY of private messages from BW thanking me for finally saying something that makes sense.

Keep it up ladies, and hopefully soon I will be telling you all of my wedding plans!

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Evia:

I was given knowledge about getting AND keeping a Quality man and how to avoid the parasite-predator types as a young girl/pre-teen...

My reply:

What I find interesting is that the women in my family had the same mindset, about women protecting themselves in the dating realm, and to understand the purpose of dating, insofar as that was an important strategy which they taught to us younger ones.

But the problem is that they grew up in a world in which it was easier to find black men dedicated to black women, black children and the community. So they could implement the strategy, vet the men they met, and it worked!

In their day, more black men dated women with whom they intended to become seriously involved, they made their intentions clear, and they were dedicated to working hard to support their families. These were the kind of men they met in all-black social settings.

But it is a shock to them that in today's world, black women who limit their social settings to all-black groups are at a disadvantage.

Evia:

It's so ironic, downright hypocritical but a shrewd move for bm to always have bw on the lookout for those 'sex-hound wm who only want a bw for sex.' LOL!!
I've got to give the 'brothas' their props. They have definitely succeeded in selling that fear tactic to bw, whereas they're obviously the ones who only want bw for sex and using bw for sex since 70% of AA women are unpartnered and many of these women are definitely sexing BLACK males.


My reply:

And then when black women are with non-black men, they say the men "can't jump," as though that is all that matters, and as though a man's ability has anything to do with race.

Or they disparage them as being "soft". And what is that softness? They see it "softness" in men who are non-sexist and dedicated to fulfilling their women's needs and interests.

That is typical, though, of men of marginalized groups who feel self-conscious about their ability to compete with other men in such spheres as the political and financial.

They focus on their ability to "jump," and their "toughness," as though that is all they have to offer, and as though that matters in the long run.

But in the meantime, the men with the ability to compete in the world with other men for dominance in their community, for resources and so forth, are the ones who are more powerful in the ways that really matter.

And it is troubling when black men buy these myths about themselves and black women buy these myths about black men.

They is built upon mythologies whites created about black men under slavery, the same way they created myths about black women, that they are mindless, but physically strong, and thus were to be used for their physical labor and for breeding purposes.

And yet, what does the popular culture glamorize, men who fulfill images similar to what the slaveowners once used to describe black men.

These are: the thug, the rapper (who looks like a thug) and the athlete who quite often goes to college on an athletic scholarship in which he is valued primarily for his ability to play sports, not for his academic abilities.

I'd see it time and time again. Young black men in my classes, getting into college on athletic scholarships. Numbers of them have dreams they will make it to the pros, when few of them ever do, but they don't seem to come in with much academic ability.

While in school, the team is everything, so they don't focus on pursuing majors that will offer them something after graduation, and they don't focus on the grades to get them into graduate school, because all the school needs do to meet NCAA standards is see that they maintain a C average to stay off academic probation.

Whole departments and staffs are set up to keep them on the team (and getting the college money from alumni and others who come to the games), such as academic liaisons to keep up with their progress in class, and perhaps even to pressure faculty to give them good grades and to get them tutoring (wink, wink) when they are not doing well.

Hmph!

Felicia said...

PVW,

We must never forget that when you're talking about your average BM these days, you're basically referring to someone who is mentally, emotionally, and often spiritually disturbed. Someone VERY insecure and parasitic like Khadija says.

Someone sick and in many cases certifiable.

The truth is most BM feel emasculated when they see and/or hear of happily IR dating/married BW.

They feel that these racist myths associated with them - created in order to justify inhumane treatment towards them - are all they have going for themselves.

Since most are too disinterested/lazy to even try competing with WM, AM, and others with the most important and only organ that has ever mattered in this modern age, the human brain.

Smart BW (unfortunately IMO the masses are destined to sink because they refuse to accept the current reality and react accordingly) simply MUST understand/accept the fact that the vast majority of BM have insecure, damaged, and fearful parasitic natures. Most have very fragile ego's and prefer play acting over actually being real full fledged men.

They mistakingly believe being born male is synonymous with being a man. When those are two VERY VERY different things.

Being born male as opposed to female is simply the role of the dice. Being a man is a CHOICE that one makes by loving, supporting, promoting, and protecting, your women and children first and foremost. A choice one makes by being an ASSET to society instead of a LIABILITY. Ones women and children - and the state they're in - represent the cultures FUTURE after all.

When they are neglected, abused, dying, its ALL OVER.

And everyone OUTSIDE of "the community" KNOWS IT. And that's why cultures OUTSIDE of "the community" - are statistically healthier, safer, and wealthier.

Most modern BM have FAILED MISERABLY when it comes to masculinity so therefor the "community" is basically (on a grand scale, there will always be exceptions to the rule...) DEAD and GONE.

BW need to bury their utopian fantasies (that only they predominantly believed in) for GOOD and wake up to the current REALITY that has been in existence for decades.

Basically, my point is BW should EXPECT damaged comments/responses/behavior from damaged males.

When DBRBM call themselves "sticking it to the man" with their disparaging offensive remarks, deep down they actually feel IR dating/married WM - in collusion with the BW they love - have "stuck it to them".

This is what explains this lashing out behavior. They feel doubly screwed.

By both of their "arch enemies". The WM AND BW.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

In terms of Blacks allowing Whites to control the NAACP, etc., you asked, "So how could BP put give that level of power to a white person with something they worked and died to create?"

We did it because we were crazy and self-hating enough to see White participation as NECESSARY and as PROGRESS.

In fact, White participation (and control) was often what we were begging for in the 1950s that Malcolm X riduculed: "Oh, please, White folks...Pleeeeze set up an INTERRACIAL committee to help us out of segregation. Pretty please, with sugar on top."
______________________

Hello there, PioneerValleyWoman!

You said, "Young black women need a strategy today, but the ones they are pursuing are not empowering.

I see it among young college-aged women. They go to college, and the first thing they do is go to the black student organization and become members, attending all the social events and so forth. Quite often, this is what their parents did when they were younger, but the imbalances might not have existed then."


It's a disgrace that it's come to this, but we really must warn young BW to STAY AWAY from these Black Student Unions. At this point in time, these groups are a trick and a LIFE-DAMAGING trap for young BW.
__________________

Hello there, Evia!

You said, "Also, Khadija, it seems that AA women are just not adapting fast enough to the death of the "prosperous black nation" dream. Either they don't believe the dream is dead or they're in shock that it happened so fast and are having problems playing 'catchup.'

When you listen to the subtexts of some of their conversation, many of them still believe this "black nation" is possible. This is one of the main reasons why many of them have latched onto the Obamas. Four years from now, they will learn that they've just lost another 4 years of their lives engaging in magical thinking.

So probably, there needs to be honest discussions about this dream of the "prosperous and viable black America."


Yes, this denial is the road to living like the women in the Congo. You've also pointed out an extremely dangerous downside to the Obamas---many (most?) AA women are using them to validate staying on Fantasy Island.

This is part of the reason why so many AA women have such an EXTREME emotional investment in Michelle O. They choose to interpret her marriage as somehow "proof" that they have a reasonable chance of finding and marrying a BM like Barack O. And as "proof" that AA women can afford to persist in their "nothing but a BM" mentality.

NOT!

______________________

Greetings, Sowelu!

You're welcome!
______________________

Greetings, Lisa99!

You're welcome!

You said, "...the damaging beliefs that there was nothing that I could do if I wanted to marry well except "wait" and "pray" and "hope" that some great man would come along "in God's perfect time" (SMH).

Of course, notice that when that doesn't happen to BW and they get dangerously close to passing childbearing age, THEN they are told, "Well, it wasn't God's will that you marry/have children."


There's a LOT of denial among our people about how dysfunctional, err, no...NON-FUNCTIONAL we have become. NO human group can survive for long without stable families. AAs are living proof of this fact.

Not to mention the fact that it's the LEAST FUNCTIONAL women among us (welfare queens and drug addicts) who are giving birth to the most children. Meanwhile, most of our highest-quality women are not having children because they fell into the "nothing but a BM" trap.

Not to get too far into a eugenics debate, but I've seen for myself how the Black underclass is getting more and more genetically defective over the years while working in the court system. It does not bode well for our group when, on top of disintegrating families, we have the dumbest and most defective among us breeding our future generations. This is one angle to the abortion debate that never comes up.

Nobody wants to consider the effect of having our race disproportionately populated by the offspring of the mentally retarded, the mentally ill, criminals, drug addicts, and now-adult crack babies.

AAs are NOT competitive with other groups right now. What do we think will happen when biotech, nanotech, and genetic enhancements become available for the children of the rich? The world of the movie Gattaca is NOT that far away. [I'm working on a Geostrategy Nerd post about this.]

Other people's (rich Whites, and the wealthy Latinos and Asians that are "becoming" accepted as "White") children will be genetically enhanced. Meanwhile, our children are becoming increasingly genetically INFERIOR because of our current demographic trends. This does not bode well for our future.

You said, "Why is there a cottage industry of books on singleness written BY and FOR black women? All by BW in their 40s talking about how fabulous their lives are as singles and how they're loving God and life and being the best aunt to their nieces and nephews! It's like they've forced themselves to zap their own desires away and put on a mask as this "sassy, single, satisfied" woman!"

I must admit that the ideas promoted by these books make me extremely angry. I can't decide if the authors sincerely write this drivel in order to feel good about their own diminished lives; or if they cynically write this stuff to exploit a growing market niche. Either way, this stuff is pure poison.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

@PVW re:

And then when black women are with non-black men, they say the men "can't jump," as though that is all that matters, and as though a man's ability has anything to do with race.

But it's bw's protection of bm's tender egos once again at work here because we ALL know that there are plenty of bm who are just a waste of time in the bedroom and that's putting it nicely. I've encountered a significant number of bw who say that MANY bm are bark and no bite or flat out boring in the intimate department because lots of these men think that all they need to do is hit the WRONG target. LOL! Or they think that's the ONLY target and plenty of bw scream, shake, and quiver--FAKING it with these guys simply to stroke their egos.

Then when he turns over and goes to sleep, she goes and gets her vibrator. LOL! Some bw say they fake pleasure just to get it over with.

Obviously some bm are superb lovers but obviously some other men are great too and plenty of us can most definitely testify to that.

And in my experience, other men are much more sexually creative, more attentive to the woman's needs, and interested in satisfying the woman before they get theirs. Also, in my experience, other men don't tend to make the sexual demands that I hear that bm make. They're much more relaxed about that, and don't in general even try to pressure bw to have sex as early in the relationshp as bm. I've talked to a bunch of bw about that and they say, for ex., that a wm will wait. I even read online bm complaining about bw sexually and this or that. I certainly don't ever read about wm complaining about bw sexually. (Trying to keep it clean here. LOL!)

We actually need to really discuss this openly somewhere and talk about it a lot because lots of bw believe everything that bm say about wm sexually as if these bm have been sexing wm. I mean, think about it. How is it that bm are such experts on what wm can or can't do in bed? Do bw even question where bm are getting this so-called ***truth*** from. Do bw ask for proof?

This is simply bm HOPING that wm can't "jump." LOL! Because if wm CAN jump and if lots of bw believe that they can jump, bm know that it's all over for them.

In my experience, nonbm have a greater sexual repetoire than bm and a different way of thinking about a woman in and out of bed. They believe they're supposed to satisfy the woman. They derive immense satisfaction from satisfying the woman--if they care about her. Giving a woman they care about/love pleasure is the ultimate to them. Obviously, I'm talking about more mature men--not very young guys. This is what I've learned from my own experience and from talking with plenty of women who are over 30 who have had a variety of lovers.

Or they disparage them as being "soft". And what is that softness? They see it "softness" in men who are non-sexist and dedicated to fulfilling their women's needs and interests.

And once again, PVW, bw let bm get away with saying ridiculous things like that. No wonder so many bm think bw are dumb. We ALL know good and well who the really "soft" men are--the ones who get penned up. If bm are so tough, hard, and masculine, why is it that they let these "soft" men put them in cages? Why do these big, strong, masculine men abandon their defenseless children and communities? Everytime a bm beats himself on the chest and boasts about how tough he is and how "soft" wm are, every black female in the vicinity needs to put him in check and remind him of who's in the cage and who's holding the key. Now, of course, we ALL know how dangerous that would be for black females to point that out, but plenty of those "soft" men can handle these bm windbags and have handled them and are building more cages for these worlds' toughest, most masculine males.
LAWDY!

Plenty of us bw KNOW that the vast majority of bm have been ***conquered*** by wm--not just their bodies but more importantly THEIR MINDS and this is why these bm cooperate totally with their conquerors by worshiping white men and women and doing exactly what white men AND women tell them to do. They're puppets. Yet, they want to front and act gangsta and militant. PLEASE!

Plenty of bw know what I'm saying is true and think about it but won't say it in front of black males because bw are always trying to keep bm from feeling bad AND because bw don't want to be punched in the face or beaten down or killed. But enough is enough!!

Furthermore, bm KNOW that they can't compete with wm for bw if most bw ever stop believing all this hype and if the masses of bw gave wm the green light. While the type of bw who reads our site may be willing to date wm, we ALL know plenty of bw who are not there yet. ALL men respond to friendly women because friendly women are more easy to win. ALL men are more attracted to women who they think they can successfully win. Men are just wired that way.

And another thint is that too many unrealistic bw are looking for Brad Pitt lookalikes. What about the balding, slightly built nice white guy who's interested in that bw? He may be a wonderful mate and he may be the perfect man to help a bw attain a 'living well' life. Some of the most powerful men in the world--of all races and groups--are just ordinary looking men. Look at the pictures of the wealthiest, most powerful, most influential men in the world. These men control the world and no one would ever accuse them of looking like Brad Pitt.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija said...
Hello there, Aphrodite!

In terms of Blacks allowing Whites to control the NAACP, etc., you asked, "So how could BP put give that level of power to a white person with something they worked and died to create?"

My reply:

I look at it this way, thinking of the history of the group, many books about it having been written, it was a matter of the NAACP beginning in a different time and not modifying that strategy once time passed.

It began in the early 20th century, among some serious debates within the black community about the road to progress in the wake of the failures of Reconstruction.

Yes, blacks had been freed by the 13th amendment, yes, the 14th amendment had been passed, promising equal protection, and yes, there was the 15th amendment permitting the right of black men to vote, but with the end of Reconstruction in the South, those became meaningless. Violence and terror had been on the rise, becoming the most effective means of enforcing black disempowerment.

There were three competing visions among blacks in the early 20th c.: Garvey's back to Africa movement which influenced many (Malcolm X's father was a Garveyite); Booker T. Washington's perspective of eschewing political involvement, but pursuing black industry, thrift and upright living for economic empowerment, and finally, the strategy which gained the most prominence, the NAACP, founded by an interracial group of "talented tenth" blacks and whites, many of whom had had familial traditions in civil rights, ie., dating back to the abolitionist movement.

Their goal was to pursue legal and political strategies to improve blacks' social and economic condition.

The blacks of the NAACP back then argued, what good would it do to focus exclusively on economic empowerment, when those are meaningless without political and legal empowerment?

In order to get the change they believed blacks needed, like anti-lynching legislation, protection in the courts, etc., they needed white support to organize politically and fund the organization's efforts.

Garvey always called them "good negros," the mixed-race, half-white integrationists, because they were the black elite with ties to whites through family, their education at elite white institutions, and so forth. He wasn't having any of that: removal from whites and self-determination.

This debate seemed to me reminiscent of what free blacks were to do during the abolitionist era and after Reconstruction: remove themselves from the South and slavery by repatriation to Africa or by removal to other parts of the US.

Many said, we are not going back to Africa, because we are Americans, we have no ties to any African nation or group, we built this country, we belong here.

But by the time of the black nationalist period of Malcolm X, the early integrationist model of the NAACP, relying heavily upon white support, which had now become a means of elite whites to assuage their guilt by supporting a group that claimed to be for black rights, seemed out of date and naive, why are whites running your show?

Black people had become empowered during the course of the NAACP's early efforts and those of the civil rights movement, wasn't it time to move on?

That issue came to a head not only within the NAACP, but within their sister group in the 1980s, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, started by Charles Hamilton Houston, taken over by Thurgood Marshall, and then eventually run by Jack Greenberg, a white lawyer...

Enlightened said...

Evia said:

And another thint is that too many unrealistic bw are looking for Brad Pitt lookalikes. What about the balding, slightly built nice white guy who's interested in that bw? He may be a wonderful mate and he may be the perfect man to help a bw attain a 'living well' life. Some of the most powerful men in the world--of all races and groups--are just ordinary looking men. Look at the pictures of the wealthiest, most powerful, most influential men in the world. These men control the world and no one would ever accuse them of looking like Brad Pitt.


Hmmmm...I disagree with this.

Personally, I have a type. The men I have been attracted to in my life have run the gamut...I have been extremely attracted to men that had ALL my friends like "Are you serious?!", and I've also blown off men that every woman in my environment was salivating over. So I will put out there at the start that as long as the two people in the relationship think the other is the finest thing walking, no matter what they look like to everybody else in the world, then that's all that matters. I will also say I'm writing under the assumption that we are talking about looks ONLY.

But isn't "physically dating down" one of the most COMMON complaints about interracial dating? That these brothas want sistas who look like Beyonce and Gabrielle Union or some girl fresh out of KING magazine, but when they get a white girl, she looks like Roseann or some chick he met in the trailer park?

I met BM like this in college ALL THE TIME. The black girls they dated had to be 100% DIMES, from head to toe. But who did they marry? The most ordinary, plain jane looking white girls on the planet. Nothing outstanding about ANY of them in the looks department. Women that they would not have BLINKED at if she were black. I always wanted to ask "You wanted a Gabrielle Union type black girl, so where is your Jessica Biel equivalent white girl?"

Personally, this is still something that I have an issue with...black folks having stricter standards for each other, but dating a person of another race that they wouldn't date if that person were black.

In response to your question, I would NOT be willing to date an average looking, balding white man...because I wouldn't date a black man who looked like that. He can control the world all he wants to. But if he doesn't make my liver quiver when I look at him, it's a wrap. I know the importance of physical attractiveness fades over time, but it IS important and it matters to more people than they like to admit.

I'm in a relationship now (with a very attractive BM *smile*), but if I were single, I would absolutely be looking for my Russell Wong, Jay Hernandez, and Heath Ledger look alikes. With no shame and no apologies. Because I'm only dating brothas who rival Tyson Beckford.

Figuratively speaking. *smile*

It's possible I could be attracted to this balding white man you speak of. But I know myself and I would keep it movin if he approached me. I refuse to talk myself into dating someone because I wouldn't want a man to talk himself into dating me.

Evia said...

@Enlightened re:

I will also say I'm writing under the assumption that we are talking about looks ONLY.

No, I ALWAYS view the whole package or the sum-total. A man has to bring much more than good looks and/or a buff body to my table. He's got to have brainpower or be a QUALITY man. I don't mind him being good looking IF he is a QUALITY man, but personally speaking, Quality trumps everything else for me because most men are average looking anyway. So I've never thought much about ***foine*** men. A foine man is not going to make it with me anyway if he can't cover the bases that I expect a man to cover.

Although both of my husbands are considered physically appealing to other women, that wouldn't have ever been enough to keep me interested. When I was ready to get married, I only spent time with men who could increase the chances of me and my children 'living well.' "Looks" can't do that unless he's a highly paid male model or something like that, so good looks are meaningless to me if that's his strongest card.

In most cultures and societies, normal, sensible women don't evaluate a man primarily by how he looks. They instead focus on what he can bring to their lives or their table--across the board. "Good Looks" are the icing on the cake. Only silly or underexposed or immature women hitch their wagon to a man who only has good looks or who can only give them good sex, etc. Those things are very temporary and even useless when life starts punching.

A man MUST impress me from the getgo with what comes out of his mouth or he can easily turn me off with what he says. He must give me some indication that there's a well-functioning brain up there.

But isn't "physically dating down" one of the most COMMON complaints about interracial dating? That these brothas want sistas who look like Beyonce and Gabrielle Union or some girl fresh out of KING magazine, but when they get a white girl, she looks like Roseann or some chick he met in the trailer park?

Honestly, I don't consider a typical AA man's definition of beauty as "normal" since the bulk of them equate light-bright-white with beauty no matter what the woman actually looks like. This is why I have written endlessly about this.

Too many bw are still shocked or upset by what damaged bm do or think and feel about bw. If you ***know*** they're damaged, why do you get upset by what these damaged men think, say, or do? This means that bw who think like that are STILL placing themselves at the mercy of damaged bm. Bw will always be at the bottom with bm like that.

IMO, it really is imperative that bw STOP looking at themselves through the eyes of typical bm because if we're talking about MOST AA men and other colorstruck bm in similar situations, the vast majority of bw are less-thans in the beauty department in the eyes of those men AND even in various other departments simply because most bw are not light enough or are not euro looking enough or are not white.

Light-bright-white = Beauty to a typical bm of that type unless the bw is stunningly "gorgeous" to them as in the case of Gabrielle or Kenya Moore.

With minor exceptions, other groups of men do not evaulate the beauty or worth of the women of their group by how far away from their mother's appearance a woman is whereas AA men who have dark mothers (and the bulk of them do)with broader features want women as unlike their mothers as possible. With many AA men, this is the RULE, not the exception. This is a part of the damage that I constantly talk about.

Some of the comments show that many bw do not understand just how comprehensive the damage is in many bm.


Personally, this is still something that I have an issue with...black folks having stricter standards for each other, but dating a person of another race that they wouldn't date if that person were black.

SOME black folks are like that but NOT me. Quality is Quality. And from my standpoint, I don't think that AA women have very strict standards AT ALL when they're looking at bm to date or sex--judging by some of the bm I see bw with. At the same time, I hear many bw say emphatically that they won't date a wm unless he's tall, dark, handsome or a cross between Brad Pitt and George Clooney. They are only shutting off escape routes for themselves and other bw when they make stupid comments like that. This is why I urge bw to keep their mouths shut if they have nothing intelligent to say and this is why I'm saying that some bw are VERY unrealistic about this whereas many of them will date bm who teenage girls in the bc near me describe as 'boogabears.'

Anyway, in the patriarchal world that we live in, a man is judged (and valued)by how much he can produce or by how effective he is in doing what he supposed to do (provide and protect women and children) whereas women are still judged mainly by their looks as seen through the eyes of men. Lots of women consider this shallow, but this is how it is. And life has never been fair.

Let me point out that I don't have a problem with bm judging bw based on their looks IF all skin shades and facial features of bw were considered fairly equal by these males--as was the case among continental Africans, but this not the case at all here in the West. And I know it's changing in Africa. Chocolate-skinned bw with broader facial features like Gwen Ifill are marked WAY down by MOST typical AA men for sure, 24-7--no matter what other sterling qualities that woman brings to the table. All a ww has to bring is white skin, as you've pointed out, but this is NOT that ww's fault--unless we're going to go back to the beginning of racism and point out that both wm AND ww perpetrated racism against blacks during slavery and Jim Crow.

Instead of bw getting annoyed about things like that, it would be MUCH more productive for them to focus ONLY on those men of all groups who view bw's skin shades and all-around beauty as very desirable. And there are more than enough of those men out there who think like that. I don't think that most bw realize how many nonbm would love to have a full-fledged relationship with a bw who is well on the way to becoming flawless.


In response to your question, I would NOT be willing to date an average looking, balding white man...because I wouldn't date a black man who looked like that.

Whereas I would date a wm or bm or ANY type of man who looked like that in a heartbeat IF these men are QUALITY men. We differ on this but that only shows that all bw are not alike, which is what some anti-bw folks argue constantly.

He can control the world all he wants to. But if he doesn't make my liver quiver when I look at him, it's a wrap.

LOL! I have to say I don't really understand or think that's the best way to choose a mate--as I said above. I don't know whether you're looking for a mate though. If I understand what your 'liver-quiver' man looks like, there are relatively only a small number of men out there like that because most men are average looking. That's what average means. I've been out all day long and I've been around white, black, and Hispanic men and NONE of them were of that type.

I know the importance of physical attractiveness fades over time, but it IS important and it matters to more people than they like to admit.

I agree that certain types of people are very surface-oriented.

I met BM like this in college ALL THE TIME. The black girls they dated had to be 100% DIMES, from head to toe. But who did they marry? The most ordinary, plain jane looking white girls on the planet. Nothing outstanding about ANY of them in the looks department. Women that they would not have BLINKED at if she were black. I always wanted to ask "You wanted a Gabrielle Union type black girl, so where is your Jessica Biel equivalent white girl?"

This bothers you because you're still viewing these bm as "normal" so you expect them to think in a normal way and make decisions that are "normal." These males are DAMAGED, therefore most things they say or do will reflect the damage.

It's possible I could be attracted to this balding white man you speak of. But I know myself and I would keep it movin if he approached me. I refuse to talk myself into dating someone

My husband has plenty of hair, but he's no Tyson Beckford though I think he looks as good. And Bill Gates and many other balding wm of means are men I certainly would have dated. LOL! Undoubtedly many bw weren't interested in Darren, but I'm happy about that because their loss was my gain. And you would think they would be happy about that, but they aren't. They see how well he treats me and it ticks them off that I and my children are living well and they're struggling and can't find a Tyson Beckford who will treat them the same way. Meanwhile, their clock is ticking down.

Khadija said...

Enlightened and Evia,

I'm happy that you two are having this particular dialogue. It points out something that many BW need to reconsider.

Enlightened, you said, "I'm in a relationship now (with a very attractive BM *smile*), but if I were single, I would absolutely be looking for my Russell Wong, Jay Hernandez, and Heath Ledger look alikes. With no shame and no apologies. Because I'm only dating brothas who rival Tyson Beckford.

Figuratively speaking. *smile*"


Evia, you said, "...some bw are VERY unrealistic about this whereas many of them will date bm who teenage girls in the bc near me describe as 'boogabears.'"

Ladies, it's been my observation that when the topic of IRR comes up, BW start setting these sorts of unrealistic demands for non-BM in the "looks" department.

The pattern is also for many BW to claim that they hold BM to same "looks" standard ["foine"] that they insist upon regarding non-BM.

This is not true at all.

I'm always amused to hear so many BW claim that they only date BM who rival Boris Kodjoe, Tyson, etc. When I did several years of rotations in my areas child support courtrooms, the vast majority (as in 98%) of the BM who were there ranged from average to boogabears!

Boogabears who had impregnated, and then abandoned BW who generally were better looking than them. Including some "dime" BW. There were VERY FEW (2%) foine BM being hauled into those child support courtrooms.


The other unspoken angle with this is that there are typically SERIOUS ISSUES with men who are truly "foine." This was another part of how I wasted my 20s---dating men who were even prettier than me (including a couple of professional actors).

Evia hinted at this in her comment. A man who gets even a large chunk of his "drawing power" from his looks is going to have ISSUES. Issues that a sensible woman would not want to deal with. A man who gets the vast majority--as in 90-95% of his drawing power from his accomplishments will tend to be MUCH more emotionally healthy.

BW need to stop talking this childish "looks" mantra. I'm not talking about dating, marrying and sexing a man that one is repulsed by. Although, truth be told, many BW are already doing that---the vast majority of BW are NOT holding BM to any sort of "looks" requirement.

I'm talking about evaluating men by long-term personality traits and accomplishments that don't fade over time.

Women from other ethnic groups understand this. This is why they marry well, and they and their children LIVE WELL.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Enlightened said...

@Evia,

Thank you for clarifying your points!

Just for the record, I would NEVER choose a man based off looks alone. Quality in a man is a requirement that goes without saying, in my book. I automatically assumed when you mentioned the balding, average looking white guy that he was a quality man and we were talking about physical looks because you said black women will rule out white men because they don't look like Brad Pitt.

My dad drilled into my head that any man I marry should be able to do everything HE did for me and more. Fine but low quality can keep it moving as far as I'm concerned. We definitely agree on that point.

I also just wanna point out that I did say I frequently find men attractive that other women don't. I always have, even in elementary school. I've always been a sucker for a guy that was intelligent, funny, and had great manners, even if he wasn't cat-walk ready. LOL! So if he's fine like Tyson Beckford TO ME, then I'm good! Now that I'm an adult and thinking about marriage, of course other factors will come into play. But I just wanted to clarify that point.

Lastly, your comment about what most brothas consider beautiful and their propensity to marry women who are the phenotypic opposite of their mothers is on point. And you are absolutely right about those men I went to school with being damaged.

DeStouet said...

"The other unspoken angle with this is that there are typically SERIOUS ISSUES with men who are truly "foine."

One day my mother-in-law was watching Judge Joe Brown on television and I heard him tell a woman that she was "stupid" for constantly telling her husband how good looking he was. Judge Joe Brown told her instead of showering him with compliments about his physical appearance, she should have been telling him what a great provider he was, what a great father he was, how safe she felt around him, etc.

Her husband eventually started cheating on her, openly flirting with other women, etc. And Judge Joe Brown believed that she played a part in his behavior.

I remember him telling that particular woman that women should not be concerned with the looks of a man but should only concern herself with the way he behaves.

Since moving to Arizona, I've noticed that a lot of young AA women (18-30) are dating and marrying older white guys (50 and up). It's really much all over. I went to a Saint Patty's Day Festival yesterday and saw three different examples of this. Every couple had children. The women were all in my age group and the men were all older gray haired white men.

One last thing, there is a brilliant young man in my oldest daughter's classroom who walks with a slight drag in one of his legs. For the most part it is barely noticeable because he does his best to control it. He told her the older he gets the more he can control it except when he is really tired.

As I mentioned earlier, he is a really bright young man (my daughter told me he is great with numbers) but considered a "nerd
and "geek" by most of the females in the school.

Despite his "disability" he is not a bitter angry young man. His only "problem" is that he sometimes drags his leg.

Anyway I found myself having one of "Evia's" conversations with her about looks not being everything. Sharing the same values, and one persons lost is another person’s gain.

I told her leave it to them, he'll be one of those unmarried geeks who shows up alone at his friends wedding. I rememeber her clearly telling me, "Oh, no he would not."

Needless to say, I was quite pleased.

DeStouet said...

"Sharing the same values, and one persons lost is another person’s gain."

Should read,"Sharing the same values, and how one persons lost is another person’s gain.

"I told her leave it to them, he'll be one of those unmarried geeks who shows up alone at his friends wedding."

Should have read, "I told her leave it up to them, and he'll be one of those unmarried geeks who shows up alone at his friends wedding.

Aphrodite said...

Hi Khadija,


RE dating and mating strategy:


@ Khadija



I am so sorry that you went through that as well. {{{HUGS}}}

I don't know what can be done to influence them to think otherwise. Maybe for some this is an offshoot of the "I'm not a golddigger train of thought." That planning in love and relationship means that somethings afoul in your character. Kind of how for many BW poor man = good hearted and loving and rich/wealthy man automatically means = unloving, abusive, greedy, exploitative man.

When I began trying to get myself comfortable with the idea that I should marry well and imagining/visualizing myself in different scenarios trying to figure out what that feels like seeing how I would behave...

Whenever I would share this with others the overwhelming comments/feedback always reflected that my choice was either a poor loving man or a rich abusive one. That a man can't be both wealthy /ambitious and loving and healthy.







Evia said...



"Wow! Just Wow! The brain is the MOST important organ when a woman is dealing with ANY man.


SMH Re these 2 comments that y'all made. I was given knowledge about getting AND keeping a Quality man and how to avoid the parasite-predator types as a young girl/pre-teen. In my neck of the woods, they didn't take it for granted that a man would do the right thing by a woman."





This is the current trend in my neck of the woods and I know BW are suffering and wasting years because of it.


I also think that many BW and BP in general take for granted that a man will do right. I think this is a part of the if I am nice to you - you will be nice to me line of thinking. Also I think that many BP think that age = maturity. I think that some BW think that once a guy hits a certain age he will "starighten out" in terms of behavior or get himself together financially.

Once there was an older BM I was interested in and I told my mom I was scared of encountering some of the same behaviors I had encountered in the past. She told me, "Well S. won't do that bc S. is a man". And of course S had the same issues the others did.




"They're looking at this prevalent sexist misogynist behavior of bm, but they refuse to see it for what it is; they cannot ACCEPT once and for all what they see and this is why these bw still get upset and shocked by bm's behavior. They therefore still expect for bm to behave in a "normal" way whereas the fact is that many bm have become the most formidable enemy that many bw will ever face."



I don't know what can be done to wake BW out of this denial. I was thinking the other day about how people have argued all this time about how music is the culprit - and a lot of the music is sickening, but then I realized for the first time that black culture is exactly the same. There is tons of sexism and misogyny all throughout black culture and I am learning from these blogs that there is a history of it.





" Many bm will say they care about bw and love bw, but it doesn't matter what people say UNLESS it matches what they do. You've got to watch what they DO. This is one of the cardinal rules from my Mom and Grandmom's rulebook. I keep repeating this also."



You are right. I have starting putting this in the forefront of my mind when dealing with all people. Because sometimes when things have been really bad for a woman all it takes is the promise that things can be better for her to let her guard down.



" One of the rules that my Mom stressed was: "Don't ever love a man more than he loves you." This means that from the first moment of interacting with a man in the romantic realm, a woman must control her emotions so that she can behave in accordance with the way a man TREATS her."



Now I have heard a man say this, but only when talking about women. I have had a guy to tell me that his grandfather told him to never marry/get involved with a woman unless she loves you more than you love her.



But the second part of what you said is so striking. I have never heard it broken down like that. That is totally empowering women. Now I can see with tips like that how a woman can steer a relationship to marriage.






@ Lisa99 said...

" Aphrodite, your comments about dating/relationships/marriage mirror my experience to a T. I could have written that myself.

Of course, notice that when that doesn't happen to BW and they get dangerously close to passing childbearing age, THEN they are told, "Well, it wasn't God's will that you marry/have children."



I think that is so cruel. It is beyond cruel.


" Why is there a cottage industry of books on singleness written BY and FOR black women? All by BW in their 40s talking about how fabulous their lives are as singles and how they're loving God and life and being the best aunt to their nieces and nephews! It's like they've forced themselves to zap their own desires away and put on a mask as this "sassy, single, satisfied" woman!



I think they are abnormal and insane.




" Luckily, there is still time for me. I am strategizing. I am actively working to marry well. I am NOT trying to waste time on this.

Keep it up ladies, and hopefully soon I will be telling you all of my wedding plans!"



Good for you! Go!Go! Go!

Aphrodite said...

@ Khadija,


“Thank you for your kind words. {blush} But let me stress that I am NOT a guru; and I am NOT particularly wise. Smart, yes. Clever, yes. Wise? I don't know about that.
Believe me, I'm dealing with a LOT of self-created problems like so many others among us. Starting with wasting almost 20 years of my life in a poorly-chosen career path. A poorly-chosen career path that is stressing me out AND is a source of MANY, DEEP regrets.
Part of the reason why I started this blog is that I wanted to feel like I had made some small positive contribution after all. Wanting to "help my people" [Good God Almighty, it sounds idiotic just saying this phrase out loud] was why I originally chose the career path that I picked.
Well, all of that has been tasting like ashes in my mouth for YEARS at this point. Oh...I've helped a few people along the way. But this is not at all what I thought it would be when I started. I was a fool. I should have chased after money. I almost can't believe that I've wasted this much time with this. Hmmph.
Anyway, I'm saying all of this to say that I'm learning helpful things from you and the other discussion participants. Things that I hadn't previously figured out on my own. So, whatever benefit exitst here is mutual. THANK YOU.”


I appreciate your honesty and you are welcome, but I still think that you are “smarter than the average bear”. ☺ Sadly I have known quite a few people who have gotten burned this way career wise. It always seems that people who really want to help get burned out for a number of reasons and that it can be so thankless for all that you do. I know that you are taking steps to move on to bigger and better and you still will be helping because you're setting an example.

Khadija said...

Aphrodite,

Thanks. *Smile* Onward and forward.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

@ PioneerValleyWoman


That is one of my regrets. Never taking a women’s studies class.



I have always wondered about that. Those are the two biggest slurs hurled at white men – sexual prowess and being soft. And you really broke it down – going back to slavery. I had never made that connection. You are an amazingly clear thinking woman. I have even heard BM say to and about BW who were IR married that they ‘run’ their husbands or are able to emasculate them – that is the only reason why a BW would be with a non BM.

Aphrodite said...

Re eugenics and nanotechnology


This is interesting. In undergrad they talked about this in several of my classes and I had professors who were members of nano tech organizations and referred us to their newsletters in class for research. I was hoping in the back of my mind that this was far off in the future even though I was excited by the possibilities, but I suppose that there will be and probably already are people who are availing themselves of this.

Aphrodite said...

Evia said...


"Also, in my experience, other men don't tend to make the sexual demands that I hear that bm make. They're much more relaxed about ....

They believe they're supposed to satisfy the woman."



This is def good to know. I just kinda though thought that all men were selfish and crazy and felt that porn was an accurate reflection of real life.

roslynholcomb said...

@Khadijah, I too chose poorly with my career path, for exactly the same reason. Hmph, helping my people. What a joke. I think you're considerably younger than me and have more time to correct your mistake.

I am grateful however, that I've gained some knowledge along the way that might help others, but yes, if I had it to do all over again I would definitely go for the money. I don't consider myself a guru, either. I've made tremendous mistakes and would simply like to help others avoid those same pitfalls.

Khadija said...

Roslyn,

You said, "I think you're considerably younger than me and have more time to correct your mistake."

Probably not! I'll turn 45 this year; I feel like "the old lady" in these discussions. LOL! But that's okay. Alhamdulilaah [praise God], I've never had a hang-up about aging. As a wise person told me decades ago, "The only people who aren't getting older are those who are already dead." Now that I have peers who have died over the past couple of years, I see just how true that statement is.

I also praise God for my health; which is what's giving me even the chance to turn some things around in my life.

I know more than a few people in my age range that are dealing with serious, debilitating conditions. They can't exercise. They are scraping by (barely) on disability. It's very hard to find employment after you've been laid off when you're middle aged AND sick. And they haven't found entrepreneurial things that they can do to supplement their income. It's not a pretty picture.

You said, "I am grateful however, that I've gained some knowledge along the way that might help others, but yes, if I had it to do all over again I would definitely go for the money. I don't consider myself a guru, either. I've made tremendous mistakes and would simply like to help others avoid those same pitfalls."

Yes, I'm also trying to help other BW avoid making the same life-damaging mistakes I made.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

@Khadija, that's funny, we're the same age! I'm accustomed to being the 'old lady' of the crowd as well.

Khadija said...

Roslyn,

{chuckling} Well, it's good to know that I'm not totally alone here on the "innanets." [Which is how I feel during most of these conversations.]

So many women have been programmed to be deeply ashamed of (and lie about) their age, that I'm usually the only one in any given conversation who acknowledges being over 40. {more chuckling}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Aphrodite:


I have always wondered about that. Those are the two biggest slurs hurled at white men – sexual prowess and being soft. And you really broke it down – going back to slavery. I had never made that connection. You are an amazingly clear thinking woman. I have even heard BM say to and about BW who were IR married that they ‘run’ their husbands or are able to emasculate them – that is the only reason why a BW would be with a non BM.

My reply:

Thanks for the compliment, and you're quite welcome about the information! Funny, you mentioned regretting never taking a women's studies course. The first women's studies course I took was taught by a black female professor, so I realized quite early on that women's studies was not for white women only.

Aphrodite said...

Re eugenics and nanotechnology


This is interesting. In undergrad they talked about this in several of my classes and I had professors who were members of nano tech organizations and referred us to their newsletters in class for research. I was hoping in the back of my mind that this was far off in the future even though I was excited by the possibilities, but I suppose that there will be and probably already are people who are availing themselves of this.

My reply:
Regarding the issue of eugenics and the future of these technologies, a documentary, Making Babies, a PBS special from about 10 or so years ago was talking about it then, so imagine what the possibilities are available now and will be available in the future.

TheNewGirl said...

Hi Khadija, I am a new reader to your blog and I have been visiting Evia's blog for a couple of months now. I have enjoyed the dialogue and I thought I should add my .02.

As a young bw I went to boarding school in New England and was surrounded by wp. My first love and second boyfriend were wm. Before HS, (in NY), I was mainly attracted to Am (both guys because of how smart and attractive they were) and Hm ...

I don't know where I got this idea from because I can't ever remember being told outright that wm are only interested in bw for sex or for experimental (as a festish) reasons but internally I felt that. I also questioned my boyfriends and felt tinges of guilt about being with them because of slavery (and white men raping black women) even though I am of Carribbean descent and none of my ancestors faced slavery in America.

I wonder where these messages came from and how they were able to penetrate.. (The bc: bm and jealous bw perpetuating these myths. Yep, I had bf cousins accuse me of acting white). I also thought something was wrong with me (self-hate: which I now realize definitely wasn't b/c I love myself) since I was mainly attracted to wm and felt that the bm players at my school, mainly there for sports, were not worth my time.

Reading both blogs have helped me recognize and uproot the deep planted myths that I had in my psyche about wm and also helped me to get over the guilt I carried.

ActsofFaithBlog said...

Hi All:

I don't have anything to add to the conversation but I always find reading the comments just as important and perhaps more important than the original post because of the level of participation here. So thank you Khadija for taking the time to host a blog. I also read several other blogs hosted by the commentators here. Resetting the brain drain/indoctrination requires full and active participation.

I have come to appreciate these online forums where the status quo is being challenged as well as having a safe place to work through the topics being introduced. It's nice to be able to converse with other women who want to be allies and distinguish those that don't. Pointing out unproductive behavior is also beneficial to us.

I hope that we will continue to find common ground and work to enlighten each other so we can all make better choices for our futures. Maybe we can by a big old house to escape to for female activists ala Atlas Shrugged if this economic upheaval continues.

Khadija said...

Hello there, TheNewGirl!

You said, "Hi Khadija, I am a new reader to your blog and I have been visiting Evia's blog for a couple of months now. I have enjoyed the dialogue and I thought I should add my .02."

Welcome aboard! I'm so happy you stopped by and shared your thoughts. Thank you.
_________________________

Hello there, Faith!

You said, "So thank you Khadija for taking the time to host a blog."

You're welcome; and thank you for participating. None of this would work without the participation of readers like you!

You said, "I also read several other blogs hosted by the commentators here. Resetting the brain drain/indoctrination requires full and active participation."

Yes, it's an ongoing process. I learn a lot by reading the blogs hosted by readers such as yourself.

You said, "I hope that we will continue to find common ground and work to enlighten each other so we can all make better choices for our futures. Maybe we can by a big old house to escape to for female activists ala Atlas Shrugged if this economic upheaval continues."

I share the same hope. Also, as I said in a comment on your blog (*Audience Note---which I HIGHLY recommend*), I'm still looking for a secret society to join! LOL!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Anonymous said...

There are some books I want to read about marrying well etc.

How to meet the Rich: For Business, Friendship, or Romance
by Ginie Sayles
How to Marry the Rich by Ginie Polo Sayles
How to Get a Rich Man: The Princess Formula by Donna Spangler I actually read some of this book for free (the authors myspace has the link for you to be able to do this). Anyway it was pretty good. She even told you of places to work to meet wealthy men.
There is also a website about marrying well http://www.luckinlove.com

Beagle

Silver Roxen said...

I just wanted to say thank you Khadija for this great post. There were many insights especially regarding black women and choosing and being pursued by quality men by becoming polished. This advice is very helpful to me as a young African American woman. Thank you for all of your work.

Khadija said...

Silver Roxen,

You're welcome! Thank you for your kind words about my work; I truly appreciate it.

Expect Success!