Tuesday, March 10, 2009

Table Talk for Activists, Part 4: Handling Internet Ike Turners

This essay is contained in my new book. I'm delighted to announce that The Sojourner's Passport site has launched! You can visit it at http://www.sojournerspassport.com/.

Everyone, I can't thank you enough for your ongoing encouragement and support; I truly appreciate it. Your support is what made this possible. And here's a special shout-out to my web designers at Educo Web Design. They're nice people to deal with, and they do outstanding work!

Peace and blessings,
Khadija Nassif
_________________________________________

If you are a Black woman blog host who supports Black women and girls, you have to be prepared to handle the Internet Ike Turners that are guaranteed to show up at your site. [Head scarf flutter to Gina, blog host of What About Our Daughters for coining the phrase "Internet Ike Turners."]

Internet Ike Turners are Black men who are enraged at the very idea that any Black woman, anywhere, is thinking about any issue in terms of Black women's interests. You see, Internet Ike Turners are determined to maintain the current status quo of "Black interests" being defined solely as whatever benefits Black men, period.

Internet Ike Turners [IITs] euphemistically refer to this status quo of Black male empowerment at the expense of Black women and children as "Black unity." And they will attack any forum that questions or challenges this status quo.

If you use your blog to question this status quo, then they will attack YOU. They will also seek to disrupt your blog discussions.

RECOGNIZING COMMON IIT TACTICS

The first step to handling this type of online aggression is to recognize it for what it is: an attack. Too many Black women bloggers misread this behavior as legitimate dissent and discussion. That's not what the behavior is about at all. It's about derailing, and shutting down, any discussion that might raise Black women's consciousness. I'll focus on the IITs' favorite attack techniques, but please take the time to read the entire linked article called "25 Tactics for Truth Suppression:" http://www.benfrank.net/disinfo This article covers the full range of disruptive tactics.

Play Indignant

Avoid discussing any of the points that are raised, and instead talk about how offended you are by the very premise of the discussion. Naive opponents will discuss and debate the merits of your decision to take offense at the discussion.

Hit and Run

Leave a short, sarcastic comment and then run off before anyone can respond. An alternative is to return to leave other comments while ignoring other participants' responses to your original comment. Naive opponents will continue to respond to you, instead of moving the discussion forward without you.

Straw Man

Misrepresent your opponent's argument into something that's weaker and easier for you to rebut. Spend all of your comments responding to this fake, straw man argument, and NOT to anything your opponent actually said.

Deny Reality

Act and speak as if the very real, very negative circumstances facing African-American women don't exist. Act and speak as if the African-American collective is a paradise filled with stable, loving, married households. Act and speak as if the masses of Black men are protecting and providing for Black women and children. In short, deny reality. Imitate the posture of 1950s Southern racists who just knew that their "darkies" had every reason to be happy living under segregation; and would be happy if it wasn't for "outside Communist agitators."

Naive opponents will start discussing and debating the existence of your alternate reality, instead of the original issue at hand.

Invoke [Invented, Skewed] Statistics to Deny Reality

This is a variation of the above technique. Naive opponents will start discussing and debating the merits of your fake statistics, instead of the original issue at hand.

Start a Flame War

Say something insulting or condescending to goad opponents into emotional responses. This way you can shift the conversation away from the issue at hand, and onto other people's emotionalism. For extra credit points, leave a link in your insulting comment to an IIT blog in order to lure opponents there to be insulted some more.

Change the Subject

This tactic is usually used in combination with at least one of the other tactics listed. It's also the ultimate goal of all of the earlier tactics.

STAY ON POINT: STOP HOLDING TOWN HALL MEETINGS FOR INTERNET IKE TURNERS

The first error that many Black women bloggers make is not recognizing these disruptive tactics for what they are: attacks. The second error many women bloggers make is by entertaining this nonsense.

If you are an activist blog host, please understand that it is totally inappropriate to allow oppressors to use your blog to advance their agenda! You don't owe your oppressor "equal time." Would you allow the Klan to use your blog forum to spread their message? Well, the Internet Ike Turners are the same as the Klan. I think that sometimes we forget this.

As a blog host, unless you have the skills to successfully use the IITs' comments as "teachable moments," you probably should NOT publish their comments. By arguing with IITs, you are allowing them to re-direct the discussion away from the original point, and away from your discussion goals.

For audience members, the most productive response is usually to ignore the Internet Ike Turners' provocations, and stay focused on moving the discussion forward.

78 comments:

JaliliMaster said...

I hope you haven't been getting any 'hate mail' YET! Lol at Internet Ike Turner.

Khadija said...

Greetings, JaliliMaster!

Oh, the Internet Ike Turners tried to leave their verbal droppings here for a while. Once they saw that their comments weren't going to be published, they stopped.

In terms of sheer persistence, the Princeton Theological Seminary (PTS) racists that I angered (back in 11/08) with the Open Letter to PTS have surpassed the IITs. LOL!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

focusedpurpose said...

Khadija-

i am literally laughing out loud with this post!

at times it feels like you and other bloggers are reading my mind...or watching me and commenting on my folly. LOL!

it is the latter in this instance. i recently spent quality time asking questions of an emotional lady-boy blogger just yesterday. he loves to denigrate Evia, Sara and bw in general. when he posted a piece that highlighted his hypocrisy, i felt compelled to ask questions and poke holes.

honestly, i did it to shine light for the poor lost bw that seem enthralled by his unreasoned, grammatically incorrect drivel. i suppose it could be deemed a "teachable moment", if one doesn't get too technical. lol!

thank you for feeding me so well while i have been on my time-out. you, sis, are holding it down! the heavy hitters, you, Evia, Lisa, PVW, etc. assembled in this house, dropping knowledge, make me proud. rock on with your bad self!

IITs are NOT ready. i think THIS is why they go away...

blessings in abundance,
focusedpurpose

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Greetings, Khadija!

I'm so glad you posted this. Some of the concepts you wrote of here have been in the back of my mind.

I've always thought of the phrase "black unity" as one used (among others) to lull black women into the hypnotic "black nationalist" trance that so many black women it seems have been hypnotized into.

The Ike/Ikette Turners on the internet and in real life ensure that black women adhere to the party line by uttering the hypnotic phrases.

That is why it is so important to critique the "black unity" shibboleth. Without critique, the Ike Turners gain the upper hand, because the language is so easy to use in lulling black women back into their trance and back into complacency.

I noted this over at Rev. Lisa's. In previous discussions, observers observed that black unity is predicated on a contract, but as Evia constantly reminds us, it is not based in reciprocity.

I've had colleagues who teach contracts law explain to me how contracts are supposed to work: a meeting of the minds, and mutuality of exchange.

Fairness in the bargain can be a matter for inquiry when the bargain seems unconscionable, because one side benefits so greatly at the expense of the other.

So think of it this way. Black women thought they had a meeting of the minds: black men and women adhering to the contract of black unity, where each gave something to the other and got something in return.

This model persisted in the "old school" days when more black men thought they had an obligation to black women, black children and the community.

But today, the contract is unconscionable, in that black women are the ones giving more than they are receiving from black men and from the community.

And what happens with unconscionable contracts? They can be modified, meaning made more fair, or nullified (they separate and go their own way).

Are black men as a whole willing to make the contract more fair, ie., be reciprocal? Arguably not, because any modifications to the contract result in them giving up some of that male privilege they wield in the community, meaning black unity defined on their terms, and they are not having it!

So the answer then is, nullify it!

Khadija said...

Greetings, FocusedPurpose!

Thank you for your kind words about the blog, Sis. I truly appreciate it.

You said, "i recently spent quality time asking questions of an emotional lady-boy blogger just yesterday. he loves to denigrate Evia, Sara and bw in general. when he posted a piece that highlighted his hypocrisy, i felt compelled to ask questions and poke holes.

honestly, i did it to shine light for the poor lost bw that seem enthralled by his unreasoned, grammatically incorrect drivel. i suppose it could be deemed a "teachable moment", if one doesn't get too technical. lol!"


Sometimes it's a good thing (and a "teachable moment") to demonstrate how to respond to the IITs' drivel. Especially, for the benefit of the confused BW that are listening.

However, I'm learning a lot from a book I'm reading about Jews who resisted the Nazis called Defiance. [A recent movie came out based upon this book.] I'm learning that it's of greater long-term value to save lives than to directly fight oppressors in those types of scenarios.

In this context, I believe that it's better to focus on giving BW the tools to save themselves, instead of directly fighting with the IITs.

After all, it's not like what any of these BM thinks actually matters. It's not like the IITs are in a position to actually do anything meaningful. It's not like the IITs even have the WILL to do anything that matters to anybody. All the IITs can do is flap their lips.

It's better to teach BW to recognize that men who are NOT protecting and providing for BW and children are of LOW- and NO VALUE. And therefore, are not even worth the (minimal) mental energy it would take to counter their poorly-reasoned verbal droppings.

It's better to encourage BW to STOP seeking out and listening to the voices of BM who are of LOW- and NO-VALUE.
____________________

Greetings, PioneerValleyWoman!

You said, "The Ike/Ikette Turners on the internet and in real life ensure that black women adhere to the party line by uttering the hypnotic phrases.

That is why it is so important to critique the "black unity" shibboleth. Without critique, the Ike Turners gain the upper hand, because the language is so easy to use in lulling black women back into their trance and back into complacency."


Yep. The other thing that I find fascinating (in a perverse way) is that the Internet Ike Turners & their cheering section of Ikettes NEVER have a positive, affirmative vision with action steps for Black folks. They never have concrete, actionable ideas that they want people to follow.

Instead, their whole thing revolves around trying to shout down those who are raising questions about the status quo.

I saw a similar thing during the "going to Kansas" discussions when I was advocating that BW evacuate Black residential areas. A couple of folks wrote in to vehemently disagree with the evacuation call, but had NO concrete ideas whatsoever for what they wanted people to do to save their own lives while living in Black areas.

Even after I directly asked them, "What's YOUR idea for saving our lives?", all they could offer were faux Black unity statements designed to guilt-trip any Black person who was contemplating leaving to save their life. Meanwhile, the body count is STILL rising,and they had nothing to say concerning the many known fatalities I mentioned, such as Blair Holt.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

We also need to understand that these IITs can also be dangerous. I've been talking about empowerment and divestment for a long time online (10+ years) and I've had at least one stalker for nearly that long. It's actually quite commonplace for women bloggers of all races to be harassed and stalked, but particularly those with a black womanist agenda. You have to decide early on whether or not you want to jump into this fray or not because once you do they'll never leave you alone. This work is definitely not for the thin-skinned.

ak said...

There is another IIT tactic Khadija and that's when they ask YOU to show them some statistics to back up what your saying on your blog or in the Comments section.

And sometimes statistics do exist regarding a certain topic, but I remember what Evia said on her blog ages ago that a BW should never deny the facts and realities in front of her own eyes and within her own life.

And that's true! And it's just sense and everybody's already aware of what's completely around them for the most part anyway or they have gut-felt instincts, but if they don't heed any of this or they want to be in denial then that's up to them.

But these IITs act like you can just pull a statistician out of your sleeve somewhere just to prove a point about what yo may say on your blog or in the Comments section! LOL As if a blck person can't say anything truthful without being backed up by the goverment or any private companies readings and say so! LOL

jazine said...

Peace, blessings and solidarity, Khadija!

I wish the blog owner (Aimee)of the now defunct Black Girls Rule had your guidelines. Her blog is now rotting in the wind thanks to the IITs. They have polluted her site with their cancerous rantings. She fell for all the trappings you highlighted. It's a shame. She was a brilliant blogger, but her weakness was trying to be fair to her so called dissenters. Her blog is an excellent example of what can happen if you let the IITs get out of hand. They will turn your site into a wasteland.

Evia said...

In terms of sheer persistence, the Princeton Theological Seminary (PTS) racists that I angered (back in 11/08) with the Open Letter to PTS have surpassed the IITs. LOL!

Lawdy, you got em both coming at you--the racists and the sexists!! To me, they're ALL the same. It makes no difference if a white racist man or woman is beating me down and sucking my blood or a black male sexist-racist is doing it, I'm still being assaulted and preyed on.

And the fact is that there are MANY bw ALSO who are stone cold sexists. They worship at the altar of bm. So I was laughing at

Ikette Turners on the internet
LOL!!!

I don't talk ABOUT bw much on my my site because bw are not trying to marry bw, but there are MANY bw who are hazardous to the emotional and spiritual well-being of other bw. Bw work on other bw emotionally to soften them up and help to make it a lot easier for bm to break them down and use and abuse them. There are actually women of all groups who do that. That is the ONLY way that males could keep women oppressed for all of these thousands of years. But AA women do this bigtime, so I'm pointing this out because we're putting ALL the pieces of the puzzle out there.

This is the reason I warn so much about DBRbm, NVs and Lvs (of whatever gender) that surround bw because a LOT of bw don't know who it is that's sucking them dry and they don't know how it's done. IF they knew how it was being done, many bw would not allow it. Many ww have unapologetically TAUGHT each other all of the wily moves of sexist wm, but AA women haven't done that because of bm protectionism. The few bw who have tried to do that--like Alice Walker and Ntozake Shange--have been beaten down by bm and their bf lapdogs without hardly a whisper of protest from other bw.

Black girls and bw are assaulted, terrorized, and weakened SPIRITUALLY by bw and bm because if you do not not weaken a person's spirit, you cannot control them or oppress them for long. After that, the physical, emotional, sexual abuse and oppression in general are easy to perpetrate.

This is WHY I talk so much about this skin shade issue or skin shade discrimination perpetrated by bm against bw. That is the most BASIC relentless and inescapable assault on a black girl or bw's SPIRIT if she's dark. (I'm talking about average looking bw-not all of the dark bw out there who are "beyond beautiful." LOL!) Most people in the world are average looking.

Skin shade is something a bw cannot change, yet she's constantly under attack for her skin shade--especially if she's darker and these assaults are coming MOSTLY from dark skinned negro male parasites-predators because MOST AA males are not light-skinned or white skinned.

And what makes this type of discrimination particularly foul--coming from bm--is that skin shade is a ***racially*** inherited trait, a trait that many of them ALSO share. There is NO other trait that can be compared to it. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but to me, that type of discriminatory behavior from bm is an ABOMINATION!

There's just a WEB of bloodsuckers around a typical bw in a black "community" of all types AND in many upscale black social circles outside black residential areas.

And many bw can't connect the dots. Lots of them don't know how and when the bloodsuckers are draining them. They just know afterwards that they don't feel so good emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.

The only place I go these days where I'm with AAs is in church and I'm having a real problem sitting there seeing how bw are taken advantage of. I'm not blaming anyone in particular at the church because this thing is so entrenched, so canonized until MANY people--even the well-intentioned ones can't see it.

Here's a prime example of how bw's spirits and emotions get assaulted and pocketbooks get drained to support bm at the great expense of bw's spirits, emotions, and finances.

About 6 weeks ago, I was in church and the minister asked a young bm college student to come up front and then asked the congregation to contribute money to him to help him to buy his books and college supplies for the semester. Darren and I didn't have any cash because we pay our church contribution with a check, so I decided I would take some money to the young bm's sister later that week to give to him because I wanted to support him since he's doing the right thing. Meanwhile, a lot of folks got up and went up front and put money in the basket that the young man was holding. Most of the contributors were black females of all ages--even young itty bitty girls--because the vast majority of folks in church on any Sunday are black females.

That was all good. You would expect for them to help him BUT the ***assumption*** is that there is or will be reciprocity in return for that support. All communities I've ever heard of or read about want their males to get more education OR job skills so that they can become better providers and protectors of the women and children from THOSE communities first and foremost. In a community where there's reciprocity, the males ARE supported in order for the males, in turn, to be able to provide for and protect the females and children of THAT community. That's the ***assumed***contract and that's the ONLY reason why the males are supported in ANY community or group or race--because of what they're expected to give back. No sane people continue to give something for nothing. Remember that.

Well, I was talking to my sisterfriend, Vera, a couple of days later and she mentioned that this young bm prefers ww and is now dating a young blonde woman.

Now, at that church, probably at least 85% of the bf are unpartnered. Most of the younger black females there don't even know what 'going out on a date' even means. (For ex., I discovered that most of the young bw under 30 have never been taken out to dinner by a man!!!!) Yet, they're asked to subsidize a young bm who will not date them. When and if he graduates from college, he will still most likely share whatever salary, status, or whatever with a non-bw. We all know that there is a very high probability of that. Yet, bw are footing MOST of the bill (he lives with his sister) and paving the way for their daughters and granddaughers and other young women they love to be rejected as his mate. There are numerous young bm like him.

There are NUMEROUS bm out there, draining bw to benefit themselves and/or to give to other women. But I will never blame these other women because if I were that other woman, I'd take what he gave me too.

The black "community" is null and void.

Re that contract between bw and bm, PVW, it's been TOTALLY null and void for a LONG time whether most bw realize it or can face that fact or not. Bm couldn't afford to blatantly show their non-acceptance of the contract before, but they CAN now. That's the only thing that has changed. And bw are the last to find this out because the bulk of wm, ww, and bm have known this for a long time.

So that's all history (truly HIS- story). This is a NEW day. Don't give something for nothing because you cannot afford it. Give ONLY when there's a reasonable guarantee that you will get a similar amount in return. You don't have to be be loud about it, but get it across to ANYONE you deal with that it's "RECIPROCITY or Nothing!"

Remember that Sane people do not keep on giving something for nothing and SMART sane people always get a reasonable guarantee that they will get a similar amount in return--before they give.

tasha212 said...

Khadija,

I dealt with an IIT on my most recent post. I responded to his comments. He kept coming back with arguemnts that had nothing to do with the point of the post, which was to amend a previous post that I had written about interracial dating. I usually don't have that problem because I don't get that many comments. I have a lot of lurkers. LOL! Thanks as usual for giving practical solutions to the problems that activist black female bloggers face.

Peace and solidarity,

Tasha

Felicia said...

Been there done that concerning the internet Ike Turners and their behind kissing Ikettes.

You're absolutely correct Khadija. There is simply no sensible reason to discuss/debate anything with them from here on out.

That was an important and thorough break down of the situation just in case future (and any present) BW empowerment bloggers/commenters out their are still on the fence concerning this issue.

I knew full well when I was nailing their behinds to the wall years ago when Evia first started blogging and was allowing comments - including comments from the internet Ike Turners in the spirit of fairness (and later teachable moments) - I knew all along what their true motives were. BUT, since their dishonest droppings were put out there for public consumption, and I knew that many if not most BW readers back then were still in a confused/vulnerable/easily swayed position, I knew I HAD to respond to these bastards.

And show NO mercy by simply telling the truth.

The truth is the BEST weapon that BW have. The truth sets one free. But most BW have been discouraged from telling the truth for fear of the possible negative consequences that might befall DBRBM if the truth were put out there.

Evia even emailed me when things were really getting hot and asked me if it was me taking care of some of the characters, and if it was, PLEASE continue!LOL

Later, I just started signing my name because I figured I had NOTHING to be ashamed or afraid of since ALL of my personal information is kept personal.

Those crazy Ike's and their minions couldn't touch me.

And it's what's TRULY scary is how they'd like to shut ALL of us up if they could.SMH

THANK GOD THEY CAN'T.

A while back, NO one besides Evia, Halima, and us commenters with common sense were responding to these self-hating BW hating, sexist, white supremacist supporting cowardly damaged black males. NOBODY.

So those battles had to take place back then. So it could ALL be out in the open and ALL of the bull could be countered. ALL of the mess, ALL of the lies thrown at us bloggers and commenters could be proven to be FALSE and ANTI-BW's interest.

So, there's a time and place for most things.

Now as you said Khadija, it's LONG past time that ALL BW empowerment bloggers and commenters MOVE ON and REFUSE to even let the thoughts and rantings, of scared, powerless, useless lunatics enter our frame of minds.

And certainly not our discussions.

Many years before blogging took off, on a popular black website that most have heard about (A site I would NEVER go to now and only rarely went to back in the day) there was this sister named "Vanilla Vixen".

She is also one of the Godmothers of this black female empowerment movement.

She told the cold hard TRUTH about DBRBM and took HELL of heat from it obviously from DBRBM but also most of the BW commenters on that site.

Years later - so I've read - BW are sticking up for themselves even at those black sites.

Now that's progress. BUT, the MOST progressive act would be to LEAVE these sites where's there's constant bickering and infighting amongst BW and BM PERIOD.

Just leave the mess behind and look forward. Because the future is bright indeed for individual smart BW who realize the importance of vetting ALL people in their lives. Male and female, "black" "white and "other" romantic and non.

I know I may be sidetracking and soap boxing a lot in this comment but please allow me. There are just a few other things I want to say.

As BW who wish to thrive and still have a sense of sisterhood with some BW we MUST (both online but especially off) start looking at what we have in common instead of those small - and often petty - issues that we disagree on. We need to be more supportive of each other because the actual black community that existed in our Grandparents time simply does not exist today. Not on a grand scale. Individual? In some cases yes. But exceptions don't make the rule.

Evia will testify to the fact that on two occasions in the past (she's been doing her REMARKABLE work for going on 3 years now which is commendable and unbelievable considering what she's faced. And ladies, only some of us - myself included - know just how dirty and downright life threatening the situation had gotten at certain points) I called her and we talked when she was seriously thinking about throwing in the towel for good.

All I asked was that she think long and hard about it. Back then she didn't honestly realize how special her voice was. How needed it was. Since it was just common sense. I explained to her that yes it WAS common sense, however MOST black women have been in a NON sensible mindset due to many factors for generations.

Readers, WHENEVER you see someone intelligent, decent, and honest doing something really positive for BW, someone who is putting their money where they're mouth is, SUPPORT THEM.

If you need to CALL THEM and give them your support. Ask if there's anything you can do to help. Do it.

Offline, GO TO THEM, and offer a kind word and assistance.

This is all a TEAM EFFORT. And we need to have each others backs and be willing to help each other.

Evia has said many times that before blogging she had NO idea how different she was - and those of us few who think like her - compared to your average BW.

Average BW are SUFFERING day in and day out because of faulty conditioning. They honestly don't know any better.

But when a certain percentage of BW know better, they DO better. They think, behave, date, marry, and parent better.

I suggested during one of those calls from a few years back, that Evia could/should just take a brake. Don't post all of those comments. What WAS important was her VOICE of REASON. The common sense advice that she was transmitting.

Sometimes people think they're being "revolutionary" when they're actually NOT if they're not ACTING on new found GOOD information that will help them in the end.

So I'm happy Evia disabled the comments section on her site.

She deserves a break from at least one aspect of her sites upkeep.

I can't imagine how difficult it must be to be doing something out of the kindness of your heart, something unpaid at that, that benefits SO many (she get's letters from black women and others internationally) AND to have deal with posting comments too. Possibly hundreds of comments that have to be read, and occasionally altered before posting.

NOT to mention these INSANE internet Ike's and their mislead Iketts.

I've got to give Evia credit for posting comments for as long as she did.

She certainly didn't have to.

BW need to get out there and start DOING instead of just reading, and conversing.

It's the DOING, the ACTING that's going to ultimately improve BW's lives.

The BW empowerment movement is not supposed to be about Evia, Halima, Sara, CW, Lisa, PVW, you, me, and any and everyone else I've left out.

To my understanding, it's supposed to be about individual BW going AGAINST the traditional grain in the modern so-called "community" and taking GOOD information available that is tried and true and putting it to USE TODAY to improve not only their lives, but that of their future children.

Living and loving WELL REGARDLESS of WHO "approves", understands, is supportive, etc... or not.

Thank you for your time Khadija, and I've been enjoying these recent posts of yours.

In closing I'd like to say to all of the silent readers out there - our supporters and detractors - when we all move on to different avenues, rest assured it will be on OUR terms, NOT our detractors. We will all individually be able to say JOB WELL DONE and I gave back.

Heck, we can say that right now.

I'm really proud to be in the company of such compassionate and caring individuals.

If the masses of BW had as much concern for their own lives, as we bloggers/commenters do for them, black women collectively would be in a MUCH better position.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Greetings Khadija,

Thank you for this table talk!

Black male aggression is always present at black women's empowerment blogs!

I just banned a male blogger from my blog who now claims he's been lied about by me! *LOL* Meanwhile, his comments from his initial visits to my forum are still in the comment section for all to see! If he had half a brain, he'd delete them and THEN claim that he was lied on! *LOL*

That wouldn't work either since Khadija, LorMarie and several others remember his foolishness! *LOL*

The other aspect that we haven't discussed that has a SIMILAR effect of the Internet Ike Turners are the curious white male voyeurs who comb the black blogosphere.

You know that I have had that "problem" at my blog for as long as my blog has been in existence.

Repeatedly, I have mentioned that my blog forum addresses SENSITIVE AND PERSONAL issues that black women have difficulty discussing online or at all.

And does that polite admonishment sway them from buttin in to the process? Oh nooooo. It surely doesn't.

Somehow, there are bloggers who feel that I am having a multi-racial..."all are welcome" town hall meeting on black women's issues.

I am not. I am speaking to black women...period...and end of story.

As a minister, I often counsel people behind closed doors. Inevitably, someone who is being nosy, curious or is genuinely is concerned...will knock on my door repeatedly when they hear crying asking "do you need tissues in here, Rev?" and "do you need some water in here, Rev?"

I am usually polite and smile and wave no.

What I often want to say is...

"If you don't mind, what I really need is you to stop this interruption."

Even if that interruption is in the guise of helpfulness...it is not useful to the process we have undertaken in speaking to hurting black women. I take exception to those who have NOT BEEN asked for their counsel coming into a forum for black women and giving it anyway.

One white guy sent me an email and asked, "are white people allowed at your blog?" He was just trying to set me up so that he could run back to his blog and write a post about the RACIST black women's empowerment bloggers! *LOL*

I didn't take the bait.

I told him, "on every single television channel that black women turn on a daily basis, there are white pundits telling the world what they think and in every newspaper we pick up, there are white reporters telling the world which news stories matter most. I feel that it is vital AND necessary to reserve a space in cyberspace where we DO NOT have to hear what white men think. Is it possible for you to respect the fact that we deserve to be able to sit in a room online as women and speak among ourselves about issues that matter to us? Do you truly feel that the white male viewpoint MUST exist everywhere?"

He said no, he does not and he apologized. He got a clue.

But the voyeurism still continues however...and it is not male aggression but it is still an imposition that has not been solicited by ANY of us.

That is probably another table talk series...

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

LorMarie said...

One IIT had the nerve to question why I rejected his comments "sticking up for black men." I told him point blank that my blog is not a forum for him or the black male agenda in the same way it's not for the white nationalists who sometimes post. In all honesty, I have to work on my civility since I'm not the nicest person in the world...at least not to those who try to intimidate me.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Roslyn!

You said, "We also need to understand that these IITs can also be dangerous. I've been talking about empowerment and divestment for a long time online (10+ years) and I've had at least one stalker for nearly that long. It's actually quite commonplace for women bloggers of all races to be harassed and stalked, but particularly those with a black womanist agenda.

You have to decide early on whether or not you want to jump into this fray or not because once you do they'll never leave you alone. This work is definitely not for the thin-skinned."


You are absolutely correct. These IITs are exactly the SAME, and as prone to violence, as the Klan. More BW bloggers need to understand that fact.

I remember reading a newspaper story about the male stalking and harassment of female bloggers in general. It didn't matter how trivial or innocuous their blog's subject matter was. Women in general should NOT blog unless they have thought these matters through.
_________________

Greetings, AK!

You said, "There is another IIT tactic Khadija and that's when they ask YOU to show them some statistics to back up what your saying on your blog or in the Comments section."

This is Trick #19 listed in the article: "Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs

...Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon)."

You said, "And sometimes statistics do exist regarding a certain topic, but I remember what Evia said on her blog ages ago that a BW should never deny the facts and realities in front of her own eyes and within her own life."

Evia is correct! We know what we see in our own lives and the lives of people around us. My point is that we are NOT required to "prove" anything to the satisfaction of IITs.

First of all, there is NO proof that would ever satisfy them because they have a dishonest agenda for demanding it.

Second, why in the world would we CARE about what an IIT thinks about anything? Why bother talking to an IIT? My point with this is that a lot of BW don't really understand that the IITs are MORTAL ENEMIES to BW!

This is the core reality that naive, aspiring activists need to understand: EVIL HAS ITS OWN CHAMPIONS! When you work against evil, its champions will seek to shut you down. No matter how insignificant you think your efforts are.

This is why it is totally inappropriate for an activist to allow their forum to be used as an "open mic for demons."

__________________

Greetings, Jazine!

You said, "I wish the blog owner (Aimee)of the now defunct Black Girls Rule had your guidelines. Her blog is now rotting in the wind thanks to the IITs...It's a shame. She was a brilliant blogger, but her weakness was trying to be fair to her so called dissenters."

Yes, I saw that. It WAS a shame. Her work was brilliant, especially the "Reinterpreting Wesley Snipes" essay.

NO open mics for demons!
____________________

Greetings, Evia!

You said, "Lawdy, you got em both coming at you--the racists and the sexists!!"

Oh, yes, I've drawn the attention of a "variety pack" of Satan's minions. LOL!

You said, "To me, they're ALL the same. It makes no difference if a white racist man or woman is beating me down and sucking my blood or a black male sexist-racist is doing it, I'm still being assaulted and preyed on.

And the fact is that there are MANY bw ALSO who are stone cold sexists. They worship at the altar of bm."


Exactly right! They ARE all the same---EVIL!

You said, "I don't talk ABOUT bw much on my my site because bw are not trying to marry bw, but there are MANY bw who are hazardous to the emotional and spiritual well-being of other bw. Bw work on other bw emotionally to soften them up and help to make it a lot easier for bm to break them down and use and abuse them."

Yep. Just like the Congolese women who raised and enabled a country filled with rapists in the Congo. Just like the Afghan women who raise and enable male lunatics who throw acid in "wayward" women's faces in Afghanistan.

You said, "Many ww have unapologetically TAUGHT each other all of the wily moves of sexist wm, but AA women haven't done that because of bm protectionism. The few bw who have tried to do that--like Alice Walker and Ntozake Shange--have been beaten down by bm and their bf lapdogs without hardly a whisper of protest from other bw."

THIS is a critical point. It's also another reason why I am issuing the call to gratitude and accountability to audience members. BW generally allow the IITs and Ikettes to destroy the very few people who DO help us. This behavior pattern has to STOP.

You said, "Now, at that church, probably at least 85% of the bf are unpartnered. Most of the younger black females there don't even know what 'going out on a date' even means. (For ex., I discovered that most of the young bw under 30 have never been taken out to dinner by a man!!!!) Yet, they're asked to subsidize a young bm who will not date them. When and if he graduates from college, he will still most likely share whatever salary, status, or whatever with a non-bw.

We all know that there is a very high probability of that. Yet, bw are footing MOST of the bill (he lives with his sister) and paving the way for their daughters and granddaughers and other young women they love to be rejected as his mate. There are numerous young bm like him."


{groaning and shaking my head in recognition---I've seen this pattern play out over & over again} This is the reality of how "helping a brotha out" generally does NOT benefit BW and girls. BW need to STOP "helping brothas out."
_____________________

Greetings, Tasha212!

See what happens when you step even the slightest bit "out of line"? LOL! You said, "Thanks as usual for giving practical solutions to the problems that activist black female bloggers face."

You're welcome!
_____________________

Greetings, Felicia!

You said, "The truth is the BEST weapon that BW have. The truth sets one free. But most BW have been discouraged from telling the truth for fear of the possible negative consequences that might befall DBRBM if the truth were put out there."

True that! A good first step is for more BW to get into the habit of just telling the plain truth.

You said, "Years later - so I've read - BW are sticking up for themselves even at those black sites.

Now that's progress. BUT, the MOST progressive act would be to LEAVE these sites where's there's constant bickering and infighting amongst BW and BM PERIOD.

Just leave the mess behind and look forward. Because the future is bright indeed for individual smart BW who realize the importance of vetting ALL people in their lives. Male and female, "black" "white and "other" romantic and non."


Exactly! Folks who want to debate while standing inside a burning house are free to do so. I'm focused on getting to the Promised Land!

You said, "Readers, WHENEVER you see someone intelligent, decent, and honest doing something really positive for BW, someone who is putting their money where they're mouth is, SUPPORT THEM....

...BW need to get out there and start DOING instead of just reading, and conversing. It's the DOING, the ACTING that's going to ultimately improve BW's lives."


YES! YES! YES! {raised black glove}

Felicia, thank you so much for your kind words and encouragment about the blog. Like you said, it's not about any particular bloggers, it's about the future that we're ALL collectively creating for ourselves, and the Black girls that come behind us. THANK YOU for all that you have done to make that future a better one!
___________________

Greetings, Lisa!

You said, "Thank you for this table talk!

Black male aggression is always present at black women's empowerment blogs!

I just banned a male blogger from my blog who now claims he's been lied about by me! *LOL* Meanwhile, his comments from his initial visits to my forum are still in the comment section for all to see! If he had half a brain, he'd delete them and THEN claim that he was lied on! *LOL*

That wouldn't work either since Khadija, LorMarie and several others remember his foolishness! *LOL*"


Oh yes, I saw that when I stopped by your blog today. LOL! I remember this particular IIT from when he showed up at one of your earlier discussions in 10/08. I was waiting to see how long it would take for his ill-fitting mask (of trying to sound reasonable) to fall off. LOL!

You said, "The other aspect that we haven't discussed that has a SIMILAR effect of the Internet Ike Turners are the curious white male voyeurs who comb the black blogosphere.

You know that I have had that "problem" at my blog for as long as my blog has been in existence."


Yes, I had to eject a White male voyeur today on another thread. I had been waiting to see exactly how long it would take for this individual to turn his uninvited intrusions into a more overt attempt at dominance. Unfortunately, it didn't take long.

You said, "Even if that interruption is in the guise of helpfulness...it is not useful to the process we have undertaken in speaking to hurting black women. I take exception to those who have NOT BEEN asked for their counsel coming into a forum for black women and giving it anyway."

Exactly!
_________________

Greetings, LorMarie!

You said, "One IIT had the nerve to question why I rejected his comments "sticking up for black men." I told him point blank that my blog is not a forum for him or the black male agenda in the same way it's not for the white nationalists who sometimes post. In all honesty, I have to work on my civility since I'm not the nicest person in the world...at least not to those who try to intimidate me."

As far as I'm concerned, I don't owe IITs an explanation of anything at all. The same way I would NOT explain myself OR my decisions to the Klan. End of story for me.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

JS said...

Evia:

And what makes this type of discrimination particularly foul--coming from bm--is that skin shade is a ***racially*** inherited trait, a trait that many of them ALSO share. There is NO other trait that can be compared to it. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but to me, that type of discriminatory behavior from bm is an ABOMINATION!
____________________

Another racially inherited trait that can be changed that black women are discriminated against is hair texture. I think many black folks are more comfortable talking about colorism than harism. You wouldn’t believe how deep the denial is about black folks hating their kinky, curly hair. I think the denial is as deep as the Mariana trench! At least folks will try to be “Politically Correct” about skin shade discrimination, but the mocking of natural African descended hair is done publically with absolutely no shame. How many folks have heard of that dreaded phrase “good hair”? Conveniently, the “good hair” is a hair texture closer to Caucasian straight hair.

I feel passionate about both racially inherited traits that the bc discriminates against but the natural hair one makes my blood boil. Maybe it is because of the blatant in your face denial and ridicule.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Greetings, ladies and thanks for the shout-outs!

I started responding on the blogs and developing my own once I began seeing "Ike and the Ikettes" come on onstage to sing their black unity chorus with their various refrains meant to prevent black women from thinking critically about their condition.

Evia, the story you told us about the young man in college reminded me of Rev. Lisa's discussions about allies.

I'm sure many of the black women in that congregation sees in this young black man a beacon of hope, and that he is a young man who will be a shining example of a good black man in the future.

But is this young black man an ally worthy of support? It doesn't seem to even be an issue.

But what message are they being given in return for their support, when he has already indicated that he prefers to date non-black women, and their resources are already going to pay towards him making a good impression, grade-wise, etc., upon them.

I imagine that there are young black women in that same congregation who are also going to school, or who are hoping to in the future. Will the minister make the same announcement about helping them out?

I hope so, but it is possible the minister might not. Will any of the women even speak out? Perhaps they might talk among themselves, but will they do more? Will the minister even be willing to address their needs?

This can only happen when a community mindset sees its young men as vulnerable and endangered, but does not see its young women in the same way, or it sees them as "strong," meaning capable of bearing all sorts of burdens without support. This can only happen when the community buys an ideology that white supremacy harms men more than it harms women.

Thus, we gotta "help the brotha out," etc.

Evia said...

@ PVW re:

This can only happen when a community mindset sees its young men as vulnerable and endangered, but does not see its young women in the same way, or it sees them as "strong," meaning capable of bearing all sorts of burdens without support. This can only happen when the community buys an ideology that white supremacy harms men more than it harms women.

AND
@ JS
I feel passionate about both racially inherited traits that the bc discriminates against but the natural hair one makes my blood boil. Maybe it is because of the blatant in your face denial and ridicule.

This stuff is TOO SICK TO FIX. We have got to see that and just let it go. There is just Too Much DAMAGE. While we're working on trying to fix ONE piece of this massive dysfunction, and getting burned out in the process, 99,000 other parts are there and/or are building up to take their place. This is why we're urging bw to just FLEE.

The bottom line is that this damage is BEYOND REPAIR because we don't have the resources to fix enough of it to warrant remaining mired in it. It will suffocate those who remain in it. It will kill those who remain in it. We can talk about all these little piece of this and that, but we've already seen that not enough bw currently have the WILL to do that. I had initially made that statement on Lisa's site many months ago, and I think some folks thought I was being negative, but I was just being pragmatic.

Even trying to fix it is a part of the game that's run on bw by other bw and by bm. Bm aren't about to devote many of their resources (time, energy, money, brainpower, etc.) to fix this stuff because men are less emotional. They KNOW it's already OVER! So many bw are ***feeling***and this is why most folks are successful at keeping bw focused on "saving our people" whereas they KNOW it won't work with the men.

Anyway, I've got to run now but I may elaborate on this more later.

Beverly said...

Hey everyone! This whole conversation has been awesome over the past few days. Here's my 2 cents on internet ike turners and their offline cousins.

Any black woman who dares look after her own interest is a target and a threat to many systems of dominance:

1. White supremacy
2. Black male supremacy

Basically, there is a general belief that females (especially black females)exist to please and "help" others. I have experienced this so often. At first I didn't recognize what it was; but now I know thanks to connecting to others via these blogs. I've experienced resistance when I write about black women interests and experiences. Black men demand that I write about black men. White people demand that I include them. LOL I was at an event last night and we were discussing the economic "crisis" and when I said I was mostly concerned about the exchange rate because it directly affects me I was blasted for thinking of myself. LOL A whole debate ensued about self-interest and how it's bad for ME to have self-interest. Of course they didn't say that directly; but that is what they implied. While they said that others should look out for themselves first, they got mad when I directly said I was looking out for myself. LOL What is happening is that black women have been looking out for others FIRST for far too long--hundreds of years. We have been looking out for white people, black men, black children and anyone else who appeals for assistance even if it harms us. I have a friend right now facing financial difficulties that are being exasperated because she helped a trifling friend when she couldn't afford to. My friend failed to look out for her self-interest first. Because black women have been looking out for others for so long the fact that many of us are now looking out for ourselves first is perceived as a threat to some people's very survival--many of those who still depend on our "help" to make it--black men.

What you all say about "helping a brother out" is so true. All my life I have been faced with the DEMAND to help a brother out which is really an order with an "or else" component. It can be dangerous to not help a brother out if "brother" has access to you. This is why black women really do need to leave black residential areas. Many black women are helping "brother" out because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't. I had a friend who lived in Atlanta's rough area and she would leave her door unlocked. Different "brothers" from the neighborhood would drop by and she would help them out--general conversation, advice, food, money or anything she could do to ease the pain they were experiencing. Some of these "brothers" were potentially dangerous in my opinion so I warned her. And basically she told me that she felt that she could not turn them away, the unsaid fact was that she was afraid of what they would do if she didn't fulfill their needs.

I remember being in the Whole Foods in Atlanta on Ponce de Leon and being accosted verbally by a professional "brother" because I did not return his hello. He told me that I was required to respond to him when he spoke to me. He was verbally violent. No one helped me in that store. I have another friend, who avoids those situations (she told me herself) by always addressing "brothers" first with a very overly friendly hello even if they are a crackhead laying in a ditch or a criminal. LOL

In order to deal with these abusers of black women we must do two things.

1. Remove ourselves from their reach.

2. Ignore them.

energize said...

ALL of you ladies are amazing. It is just so nice to have access to so much brain power on these bw blogs. Sometimes I am overwhelmed (in a good way) by the amount of information disseminated from you all.

During a time of deep pondering I wondered why professional bm had basically become awol from bw? Why were the only bm left to date were bottom feeders and leeches? I googled IR dating and found EVIA. And boy did she shake me up to cease some of my own self-limiting behaviors and expand my options.

No one in my circle of friends, who happened to all be dateless and mateless beautiful bw, nor magazines were discussing these issues.

I hopped over to Halima’s blog and had numerous AHA(!) moments from a totally different perspective.

I discovered Sara’s blog and started soaking up her wealth tips and beauty tips. Thanks to her scrubbing tip, my body esp. elbows and knees are so smooth and soft. I sure do miss those tips.

As I continued to travel along I was blown away by Lisa and now that Khadija is on my reading list, it is just eye-opening how much I needed to step up my game or get left behind. Ya’ll are not leaving me behind. I’m going to Kansas!

If I could compile all this information and pass it out to young bg at schools to prevent them from having to swirl in the confusion I had to, I would. I’m sure there would be some legal issues with that, but I pass the word to them every opportunity I ge
I would consider myself a foot soldier.

Thanks ladies!

Tam said...

Hi JS

You hit the nail on the head, literally when you brought up the hairism complex. I honestly believe it is far more of a problem than colorism.

I recently went out to dinner with family and a few people who were invited by them. There was one lady who came who kept commenting about my niece's "good grade of hair" She said it more than once. I do tend to be the more political, if not out spoken person when it comes to this subject, however I let it ride because although she was offending me I did not want this to turn into something ugly. We were out celebrating a birthday.

I have two nieces, both of whom are beautiful. One has a different hair texture and people, including family members fawn over her, you would too if you saw how beautiful she is!!!! But they take it to extremes when they only note her for her hair. Sitting at dinner with this woman was an experience. She constantly fawned over my one neice while not acknowledging the other.

I wonder how my sister would have handled it if the woman would have told my other neice "Ohh, you're so light skinned, you're so beautiful." She would have been appalled.

This madness must stop now.

Enlightened said...

Hi again, Khadija!

The issue about outsiders encroaching on our space really struck me. I saw on your other post how you had to check someone who had the audacity to come up in your space and try and tell you what you need to be doing and what you need to realize about yourself. Rev. Lisa's response about white men thinking their input is valued everywhere they go was also an eye-opener.

I'm curious to know if you think this encroaching on other folks' boundaries is a new phenomenon or one that you think has been around before. Do you think it depends on race, socioeconomic status, personal upbringing, or some other factor?

One subtle complaint that I've had for awhile is that a lot of folks are so bold nowadays and see no problem with placing themselves in your personal space. And what surprises me even more are the people who think this is NORMAL and that they have to accept it.

Reverend Lisa mentioned on her blog once about how she has encountered people in public who see no problem coming up to her and asking her personal questions about how much her outfit costs or something of that nature. I read several forums about black hair care and one thing that is always so amusing to me are the women who will walk up to a complete stranger on the street and ask her all kinds of invasive questions about her hair and what she's doing to it, but they have the AUDACITY to get upset when the woman blows them off or is short with them. They RUN, not walk, back to the boards to have a crying fest, where the other posters console them and say "That probably aint her real hair anyway!"

I'm only 25 so I won't speak on anything that happened before my lifetime, but I feel that more and more...there is an expectation among people that you should be willing to answer ANY question somebody asks you, no matter how invasive it is. That your blog should be an open space for everybody to comment if they have an opinion about something you say, even if what they have to say is complete filth and contrary to your mission. That you should add every person who befriends you on social networking sites, even if I don't know them from a can of paint (I've had people get upset at me about this!). That if some chick thinks you slept with her man, you should be willing to answer any and all questions she may have about YOUR sex life (true story: I've seen it happen with my own two eyes). The list goes ON. There is NO discretion anymore, it seems.

I appreciate that you, Evia, Rev. Lisa, and other Black Empowerment Bloggers don't allow just anybody to come up in here spewing their filth. But apparently, there are even OTHER BLACK PEOPLE who don't feel that spaces such as yours should exist without their input. Nevermind that the internet is like outerspace and there is room for these people to go do their own thing on the other side of the cybergalaxy...why do they INSIST on bothering you in YOUR space?

Do people think so low of black women that we aren't even allowed to have our own space on the INTERNET?

I'm very curious to know what you (and other people) think.

focusedpurpose said...

hi all-

Khadija, you and the other brilliant ladies that suggest NOT speaking to IITS (both genders) are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

after my exchanges, i felt a prick in my spirit. i felt admonished to not caste pearls before swine. thank you for the confirmation that your response to me constitutes.

Felicia, your comment really resonated with me. i have been calling the plain courage to tell simple truth, "telling the truth and shaming the devil". lol!

back to work i go...

blessings all,
focusedpurpose

Khadija said...

Golden Silence left the following comment to the post "Table Talk for Activists, Part 4: Handling Internet Ike Turners":

I edited the comment to delete the specific reference to an Internet Ike Turner site. This blog's policy is: NO open mic for demons! NO publicity for demons!

Golden Silence said:

"I just had an encounter with an IIT today, which sadly wasn't the first encounter I've had with one.

Today, someone was joking about Chris Brown hooking up with his (the poster's) ex on Facebook, and I called him on it, and he dismissed it and said I was [paraphrasing] "young and biased." (His actual post was not that eloquent, though.) He said he grew up with real violence and dismissed CB and Rihanna as teens "scrappin'." Whatever.

When I ran an anti-street harassment blog (it's been defunct for at least a year now---I let the IITs and others get to me) and did commentary about being harassed by mostly Black men, Black men would come out with "not all Black men do it" (true, I know that), "stop dressing like a ho" (neither I, nor many of my former readers, dressed like 'hos'), or told us to "stay home" (like the good 50's housewife...ha!).

Then I had the nerve to post at ______________________'s misogynistic site where he twisted my words to further his agenda. Sigh

It is frustrating dealing with men that don't want to listen to the other side of the story, and who only want to attack, debase and berate women who disagree with them. And there were times when I got so angry and just wished I could punch these men in their faces (yes, I know that's not the answer to anything, but they get me mad!).

Reading this post made me realize that there's no winning an Internet argument. It'll just keep going and going with no resolve. It's best to be the better person and let a troll be a troll. It'll just show how pathetic they are in the end."

Khadija said...

Greetings, Beverly!

You said, "Any black woman who dares look after her own interest is a target and a threat to many systems of dominance:

1. White supremacy
2. Black male supremacy

Basically, there is a general belief that females (especially black females)exist to please and "help" others."


BREAK IT DOWN! {raised black glove}

And you are also correct that there IS an implied (and sometimes OPEN) threat attached to these "help a brotha out" demands. The Ikes and Ikettes are part of the enforcement wing of the "BM at the Expense of BW and Children" infrastructure.

You said, "Because black women have been looking out for others for so long the fact that many of us are now looking out for ourselves first is perceived as a threat to some people's very survival--many of those who still depend on our "help" to make it--black men."

Parasites KNOW that they can't make it without the host body. So, of course, parasites get hysterical (and sometimes violent) when the host body starts to detach from them.

As you noted, BW must take themselves OUT of striking distance of the IITs.
______________________

Greetings, Energize!

You said, "Ya’ll are not leaving me behind. I’m going to Kansas!"

{chuckling}

You said, "If I could compile all this information and pass it out to young bg at schools to prevent them from having to swirl in the confusion I had to, I would. I’m sure there would be some legal issues with that, but I pass the word to them every opportunity I ge
I would consider myself a foot soldier."


I would suggest that you start with the BW and girls around you. I often print and pass out copies of Rev. Lisa's, Sara's, and other BW bloggers' essays to the younger BW at work and relatives.

I recommend these other blog sites to the BW I know. Some women respond; some don't. Of those who respond, they often spread the word to their high-school and college-age daughters who then inform their friends.

Previously, I also burned a CD of What About Our Daughters podcast about the NAACP's inappropriate response to the Dunbar Village Atrocity and played it during lunch at work for some BW coworkers.

Nothing is stopping you from spreading the word to the women you know.
______________

Greetings, Enlightened!

You said, "I'm curious to know if you think this encroaching on other folks' boundaries is a new phenomenon or one that you think has been around before. Do you think it depends on race, socioeconomic status, personal upbringing, or some other factor?"

I think there are several overlapping things underlying these intrusions:

One aspect of true freedom is having the power to exclude outsiders from one's physical, cultural, political, and religious spaces. Powerless people do NOT have the power to exclude anybody from anything of theirs. Powerless people are constantly subjected to intrusions (of all sorts) from outsiders.

This is why Whites feel empowered and ENTITLED to intrude upon our spaces. Historically, Black folks didn't have the power to keep them out of anything of ours. They could invade our homes, bodies, and lives at will.

Many Whites still have that slavemaster mindset when it comes to us. It NEVER occurs to them that we might have boundaries that they are REQUIRED to respect.


In the present era, we have the ability to exclude, but most of us lack the WILL to exclude outside intruders. And you ARE an intruder when you gatecrash your way into something uninvited.

OTHER people have boundaries that are respected because they are enforced. That's why I gave the intruder the example of the Jewish community. Nobody even thinks of taking liberties with them (telling them how they "should" feel about their own issues, etc.) the way they do with us.

Outsiders NEVER try to dictate to Jews who they should define as Jewish, and who they should not define as Jewish. Meanwhile, non-Blacks love to tell us who we should and should not define as Black.

Outsiders NEVER try to dictate to Jews whether or not they "should" identify a certain statement or activity as anti-Semetic. Meanwhile, non-Blacks love to tell us what we should and should not consider racist.

Outsiders NEVER try to barge their way into joining Jewish professional organizations, etc. Outsiders NEVER question the validity of having Jewish campus and professional organizations. Meanwhile, we know what happens in terms of our stuff.

I could list other situations, but you get my drift.

The other part of this equation is Black folks' general, consistent failure/refusal to set boundaries with outsiders. This is why these sorts of intrusions are STILL happening in the 21st century!

There are several interlocking reasons why most Blacks lack the will to set and enforce boundaries with non-Blacks.

One reason that most Blacks lack the will to set boundaries with outsiders is due to a lack of racial pride. Many of us are automatically flattered by attention from outsiders. Many of us literally crave attention and validation from non-Blacks.

Another reason that most Blacks lack the will to set boundaries with outsiders is because we don't feel entitled to do so. We're drinking the "kumbaya/we are the world" kool-aid and feel obligated to allow admittance to ANY outsider who wants to be in our space.

This master/servant, dominant/subordinate dynamic also plays out in terms of gender.

There was an episode a while back when another blogger had organized a campaign to stop Rev. Sharpton (or Rev. Hotcomb as I was calling him at the time---LOL!) and the NAACP from continuing to support the alleged Dunbar Village gang rapists.

[Side note: FocusedPurpose, you probably remember this particular sequence of events. *Smile*]

There was a BM reader/blogger who had joined that cyber-campaign. However, this man persisted in submitting comments to that blog presuming to tell BW what we "should" and "should not" do in terms of strategy to advance BW's interests! He did this, instead of the list of supportive activities that several BW bloggers suggested to him.

He vehemently claimed to be our ally in our struggle while engaging in the above-described behaviors.

He said he was hurt by my comment that "with friends like him, BW didn't need any 'official' enemies." I explained the following to him:

When I was in college, I participated in the anti-apartheid struggle. When we invited Black South African activists to campus, we did NOT presume to lecture them about strategy for THEIR movement. Not only would such behavior be incredibly arrogant, it would NOT be any sort of solidarity.

Instead, we asked the Black South African activists what we could do to support their struggle. They told us what they would like us to do in solidarity with them. And we did what they asked us to do! Period! We did NOT arrogantly try to set policy for THEIR struggle.

This is what actual solidarity looks like. It means respecting the prerogative of those who are directly affected to set their own strategy, policy and agenda!

The BM that I'm describing wanted to call himself our ally but he was unwilling to defer to our wishes, and judgment as pertains to OUR struggle! He mistakenly thought that he was going to exercise dominance over us in the middle of our own struggle.

He thought wrong.

I believe that all of the above are the dominance-related issues that pertain to boundaries. There's also the general coarsening of popular culture, the erosion of manners, and the rise of barbarism. All of these developments lead to an increasing disrespect for the very idea of boundaries.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

I appreciate that you, Evia, Rev. Lisa, and other Black Empowerment Bloggers don't allow just anybody to come up in here spewing their filth. But apparently, there are even OTHER BLACK PEOPLE who don't feel that spaces such as yours should exist without their input. Nevermind that the internet is like outerspace and there is room for these people to go do their own thing on the other side of the cybergalaxy...why do they INSIST on bothering you in YOUR space?

It's because these folks BELIEVE, as someone said, that bw ***exist*** for the sole purpose of 'being there' for other people. AA women and apparently similar other bw have been so self-sacrificing and so lacking in their own identity for SO long until MOST people just can't see us refusing to give up our time, energy, space, etc. to them whenever they want those from us.

They don't view us as having a separate identity or belonging to ourselves. They see us as belonging to general others to be used as they see fit or as an extension of them. I think that the most dangerous word for a bw to say is "No" particularly if she says it in an unapologetic and unabashed way.

I know bw haven't done it deliberately, but we have in essence trained people to view us and treat us as "less-thans" by rewarding them when they treat us like less-thans. I'm not blaming bw since they've been indoctrinated, but if someone continues to treat you a certain way, it's because you're rewarding them for doing it. I hope we can clearly see the numerous ways MOST bw continue to reward sexist misogynist bm for their foul behavior towards bw. I'm sure we can also see how SOME blacks reward racist whites or racist institutions for their mistreatment of blacks too. So, from a behavior mod viewpoint, this can go on forever.

If you were to ask typical black people: "what is the role and function of a bw?" Their mind would automatically go to: ***SERVING OTHER PEOPLE*** or some sort of service capacity in one way or another because this is what MOST AA women STILL do MOST of the time and without reciprocity. Lots of other women also serve others in their group, but there's always RECIPROCITY built in for those women, and this is why the vast majority of those women fare much better.

In my offline life, I appear to be aloof and not one to bother, so people leave me alone, but online People INSIST on talking to me. This is an everyday online reality for me. LOL!

Lots of people online, especially those who disagree with me are furious at me because I refuse to talk to them. I definitely don't feel I have to talk to anyone unless I choose to do so, and I'm not going to be forced to do that or unless I want (which means there's something in it for me) but many blacks I've encountered online can't accept that--definitely not typical ITT bm and their Ikettes. I don't care what these people think, but they care what I think about their opinions and this is one reason why they want to talk to me. So they become outraged when I don't respond to their emails or don't post their comments or when I refuse to allow them to use my site to promote their agenda.

Here's a little warning though to other bw-ir or empowerment bloggers. This type of situation can get vicious because one of the nastiest episodes I've experienced thus far is when a bw who clearly needed therapy became furious with me when I refused to correspond with her or allow her into my private blog. She became vindictive, formed a gang and set up a website to attack me. For some reason, I attract demented people who develop a fixation on me and become obsessed with my online message/persona

Another thing is that in my offline life, I insist on being talked to in a certain respectful or appropriate way and I won't respond to those who don't know how to talk to me. Or I will not associate with anyone of this type--to avoid conflict. I don't see any reason to be different online.

Khadija said...

Hello there, FocusedPurpose!

You said, "after my exchanges, i felt a prick in my spirit. i felt admonished to not caste pearls before swine. thank you for the confirmation that your response to me constitutes."

Exactly! [And there are some other angles to this that I'm going to mention in my response to Golden Silence, below:]
_________________

Greetings, Golden Silence!

You said, "It is frustrating dealing with men that don't want to listen to the other side of the story, and who only want to attack, debase and berate women who disagree with them."

This statement concerns me. It concerns me because it's not sinking in with many of us that these IITs are MORTAL ENEMIES of BW. It's not sinking in that many of these IITs would literally enjoy beating, raping, and killing BW for entertainment.

You said, "When I ran an anti-street harassment blog (it's been defunct for at least a year now---I let the IITs and others get to me)..."

Since you had this experience, you have to know the level of rage and hatred that these IITs have for BW. You have to know that the only thing keeping some of these IITs in semi-check is their fear of consequences via law enforcement.

Given that you have to know these things, why would you expect these men to "want to listen to the other side of the story"?

Why would you expect men who HATE BW and men who would like to beat, rape, and KILL BW to do anything except "attack, debase and berate women who disagree with them." What did you think they were going to do? Listen to reason?

Ladies, I'm NOT exaggerating when I compare these IITs to the Klan and the Nazis. Many of these IITs want us DEAD. Period. And most so-called "good BM" would passively watch the IITs KILL us.

The same way these "good BM" watch the IITs stalk and harass BW online without a peep of protest. The same way these "good BM" passively do nothing while increasing numbers of BW and girls are beaten, raped and killed in the outer world.

The harsh reality is that the vast majority of "good BM" are the SAME as the "good Germans" during the Holocaust. They will continue to let BW down. They will continue to let BW suffer. They will continue to let BW DIE.

I know that it's very scary for many of us to acknowledge this fact, but we have to.

Many BW are acting like these are normal times and normal situations. NO. We need to recognize that we're in the midst of a gathering storm leading up to Congo/Rwanda-style conditions.

You said, "And there were times when I got so angry and just wished I could punch these men in their faces (yes, I know that's not the answer to anything, but they get me mad!)."

Again, let me refer to the lessons of the book called Defiance: It was MORE of a blow against the Nazis for the Jewish partisans involved to save other Jewish lives, than to kill Nazi soldiers.

The local Nazis were MORE focused on trying to find and kill these Jewish partisans and the unarmed civilians that they were protecting than on killing the Soviet guerilla fighers. The Germans were MORE focused on finding and killing a group of Jews who mostly hid from them, instead of killing Soviet guerillas who were actively attacking German troops!

The same parallel applies to our situation as BW. BW escaping into abundant lives WOUNDS the IITs to their very core. Increasing numbers of BW waking up and living well hurts IITs MORE than losing any online debate. That's why the IITs are so frantic to disrupt our discussions. The IITs are deathly afraid of anything that will raise BW's consciousness and lead to more BW escaping into abundant lives.

BW investing their limited time and energy into debating IITs is a diversion from forging the concrete tools needed for escape. That's why the IITs are so desperate to lure you into arguing with them. It's a diversionary tactic.

You don't see the comments because I won't let them through, but:

Please be aware that the IITs are literally FRANTIC over this particular conversation! The idea that even more BW will COMPLETELY turn away from wasting time engaging them, and focus on seeking abundance is deeply upsetting to the IITs.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

This statement concerns me. It concerns me because it's not sinking in with many of us that these IITs are MORTAL ENEMIES of BW. It's not sinking in that many of these IITs would literally enjoy beating, raping, and killing BW for entertainment.

My reply:

Exactly! It doesn't matter how they got there, or why they feel the way they do. All that matters is "what is," that they are hateful and evil.

They believe they are entitled to engage in harmful control over black women, and they will do so with all the tools at their disposal.

There is no reasoning with evil, so it is solely a matter of staying away from it and them--the Ike Turners and their back-up singers, the Ikettes (who join them in helping exert control), wherever they are.

focusedpurpose said...

Khadija-

i must correct the typo. omg! i meant "cast" pearls before swine.

i hear, am listening to you, and learning. thank you!

there is a scripture in proverbs that teaches that it is not sound to share wisdom with fools. they will only hate you for the knowledge. attempting to tear you to pieces is the logical next step.

in your writings, again, you are confirming this truth. in the final analysis, attempting to reason with wicked fools is the epitome of wasted energy and efforts. i learned this first-hand most recently as i mentioned before.

yes! i remember the exchange that you mentioned from awhile back. i re-call point blank telling this blogger to go and tell BM what THEY should be DOING in the face of such heinous crimes against humanity. bw did NOT require his input as far as what WE needed to be doing. in retrospect, how laughably ridiculous!

Khadija, any thoughts on how to proceed for the sister that is no longer content to mostly write about what she sees?

recently, it seems that i find myself in off-line circumstances where i feel compelled to speak into the madness i see so clearly. where i live, quite a few bm do not want to be with bw. at the same time, they don't want to quietly allow bw to excercise their options.

there appears to be a roadblock erected whenever there is an "options" path. when i see it transpire, removing said roadblock becomes my sole purpose in that moment. (i've discovered a gift of the game over move and make space---between me and possible physical harm--- maneuver. lol!) for fear of straying too far from topic, i will withhold recent experiences in which i have seen and heard bm boldly regurgitate lies about how non-blk men can't please, handle, or truly understand bw in an effort to deter bw from socially engaging with clearly interested non blk men.

would acting to shut this down fall under the same category as engaging ITT? any thoughts on effective ways to be the change in off-line circumstances? maybe that is a different post?

thanks for allowing me to share.

blessings all,
focusedpurpose

Khadija said...

Hello there, FocusedPurpose!

You said, "yes! i remember the exchange that you mentioned from awhile back. i re-call point blank telling this blogger to go and tell BM what THEY should be DOING in the face of such heinous crimes against humanity. bw did NOT require his input as far as what WE needed to be doing. in retrospect, how laughably ridiculous!"

Yep. It WAS outrageous. You and other bloggers gave him a very practical list of "homework assignments" that he could perform in solidarity with our efforts. All of which involved confronting his fellow BM over their inappropriate behavior/responses.

But oh, nooooo---he didn't want to do ANY of the suggested homework. Instead of confronting his fellow BM, he insisted upon hanging around to lecture BW about what BW need to do!

What an arrogant, sexist COWARD.

You said, "Khadija, any thoughts on how to proceed for the sister that is no longer content to mostly write about what she sees?

recently, it seems that i find myself in off-line circumstances where i feel compelled to speak into the madness i see so clearly. where i live, quite a few bm do not want to be with bw. at the same time, they don't want to quietly allow bw to excercise their options.

...for fear of straying too far from topic, i will withhold recent experiences in which i have seen and heard bm boldly regurgitate lies about how non-blk men can't please, handle, or truly understand bw in an effort to deter bw from socially engaging with clearly interested non blk men.

would acting to shut this down fall under the same category as engaging ITT? any thoughts on effective ways to be the change in off-line circumstances? maybe that is a different post?"


I've been meditating on all of this. Let me paraphrase something I've learned from reading a translated comic book series explaining some ancient Chinese military classics:

The sage asked his student/prince how to stop a pot of water from boiling. The student/prince tried all sorts of dangerous and ineffective tactics like adding cold water to the pot, trying to scoop out the boiling water, etc.

Finally, the sage explained that it's better to figure out what makes the "boiling" possible in the first place, and then remove that particular element from the situation. In the case of the pot, it's better to remove the straw that supplies the fire that keeps the pot boiling.

In the situation that you're describing, the underlying problem is that these BW are listening to these men in the first place.

They are listening to, and taking counsel from, BM who do NOT value them or any other BW. They are listening to BM who are NOT protecting and providing for BW and children. They are listening to BM who don't even date BW!

I'm wondering what's wrong with these women that would cause them to seek/take counsel from men who have CLEARLY demonstrated a lack of regard for them. I believe that this particular mental distortion/defect is the underlying "straw" that needs to be removed. I would work to counteract whatever is causing this sort of confused/distorted thinking.

Are they listening to these obviously-lying BM because they've been mesmerized by the fake "Black unity" song? Are they listening to these BM (and ignoring the evidence of their own eyes of non-BM's interest) becaue they are afraid of the backlash from the so-called Black community if they date non-BM?

Are they listening to these obviously-lying BM because they are afraid of stepping out into unknown territory? ["Better the devil you know," etc.?]

In this situation, I would work to counteract whatever is causing this sort of underlying confused/distorted thinking.

[For the curious, the books I mentioned above are the AsiaPac Comic series by Wang Xuanming:

1-"Six Strategies for War: The Practice of Effective Leadership"

2-"100 Strategies of War: Brilliant Tactics in Action"

3-"Three Strategies of Huang Shi Gong: The Art of Government."
]

And, yes, you're right. It would be good to do a post about some off-line things we can do. Hmmm...I need to meditate on that. Thanks for the idea, Sis!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Enlightened said...

Focused purpose said:

i will withhold recent experiences in which i have seen and heard bm boldly regurgitate lies about how non-blk men can't please, handle, or truly understand bw in an effort to deter bw from socially engaging with clearly interested non blk men.

This reminds me of an episode of MTV's True Life: I'm in an Interracial Relationship. They had a black female/white male couple that they profiled on the show. Now, the sista was a stripper with a very voluptuous curvy body; her white boyfriend was kinda short and skinny, but he was cute and he obviously loved her very much (he proposed to her towards the end of the show). She spoke point blank about how when she and her white boyfriend are out in public, black men have a SERIOUS problem with the two of them being together. MTV followed them with cameras at some sort of outdoor event and there was a GANG of black men staring and making comments.

One of them got right in the camera and said "He don't know what to do with all that!" Other men around them made similar comments. Ignorance on FULL display.

When I was in college, interracial dating was a hot topic amongst black folks at my predominantly white school with around 30,000 students. Black men dated white women religiously, but one thing I noticed was that when black women would express their intent to date interracially as well, the first thing they would say is "A white boy don't want you! He'll only use you for sex and then drop you!" Or they would say something to the effect that black women only attract the white men that white women have disregarded. "You'll only get some white girl's leftovers!"

And truthfully, I think a lot of the black females believed them and let these black men talk them out of potential dating opportunities. And because there were so few black women and "white men didn't want us" *rolls eyes*, the black women would date brothas who they KNEW were cheating on them just so they wouldn't be alone. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who benefits in this whole scenario.

I used to be a super black nationalist, too, Khadija. And to a certain extent, I still believe in the black community, although it's clearly on its way out. But as far as my personal dating preferences, I must say that the bloggers and commenters on your and Lisa's blogs have really gotten me to open my mind about this topic.

Cause let's keep it real: if I come across Russell Wong, Jay Hernandez or a Heath Ledger look alike out in public and he hollas, I'm gonna tell ALLLLLL these brothas to kick rocks! LOL! I firmly believe that black women have THE RIGHT to expand our relationship options outside of our community if it means we can bask in the love of a man that adores us.

We gotta stop letting other folks talk us out of our happiness.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Focused Purpose:

recently, it seems that i find myself in off-line circumstances where i feel compelled to speak into the madness i see so clearly. where i live, quite a few bm do not want to be with bw. at the same time, they don't want to quietly allow bw to excercise their options.

there appears to be a roadblock erected whenever there is an "options" path. when i see it transpire, removing said roadblock becomes my sole purpose in that moment.


My reply:

Greetings! I have thought of your comments in this sense.

It depends upon the context. As women, we are free to live our lives without worrying about who cares what we do with our lives; that is our personal business and not anyone else's.

Yet, in this context of black women dating non-black men, there might be resistance from two fronts, within one's circle of relatives, friends and acquaintances, or from complete strangers.

Within one's close circle of relatives and friends, it can simply be a matter of piercing their arguments/logic and affirming one's right to freedom, the same way all the bm who criticize do, affirm their right to do what they want, regardless of who dislikes their choices.

And if these are bm who would criticize black women's choices to date non-bm, but they themselves don't date bw, blast them on their hypocrisy!

As for strangers, there is an old saying, smart and sane people should not argue with crazy fools, number one, because an observer might not be able to tell the difference, or number two, one's safety might be at risk.

Many men of different ethnic and racial groups believe they have a right to the women of their group. Women of their group who want to be with men who are not within the group must then make it quite clear that they are free women!

How should they do so? Refuse to engage with strange men within their group who would dare criticize their choice of partner! Ignore the comments, learn to look through people, and beware of one's environment, lest safety be an issue.

But unfortunately, black women have for too long given black men the notion that they are black men's property.

How so? By seeking connection with random black men in public, they recognize them, as though there is some sort of real connection, when there isn't. Race alone does not make for solidarity with random men who could be crazy, etc.

How else? By howling and screaming in pain and anger when bm are with non-bw. Some act up and act out; others cry for the brothers to "come home," proving that their loyalty persists regardless, that the bm are always going to be their first choice, and that they would rather be alone and wait for their black prince to come. Others date non-bm, but act apologetic about it.

When they do these things, they indicate that they see a connection where the men do not, which means that even when bw are with non-bm, black men might still presume that they are what the black women really want, regardless of the fact that they are with non-bm. This makes them believe they have the right to urge the women to "come home".

Khadija said...

Hello there, Enlightened!

I feel very similar to the way you do. I still appreciate the good aspects of Black Nationalism such as racial self-respect and self-reliance. [Both of which are SORELY lacking in "mainstream" Black circles.]

The problem is that the real-world application of this ideology NEVER works well for women. Just look at the personal lives of most "shining Black queens" who attend these sorts of gatherings. They are either with BM who are cheating on them left and right; or they are alone. It's not a pretty picture.

I find it extremely galling that one of my female cousins who is a self-hating, Black-hating oreo turned out to be correct about MANY things. Her motives are all wrong [worship of all people and places that are White]. However, her conclusions about the so-called Black community and Black people in general turned out to be factually correct.

It turns my stomach to see that, at the end of the day, she was right and I was gravely mistaken. But it's better to face reality than to try to take up residence on Fantasy Island.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

It turns my stomach to see that, at the end of the day, she was right and I was gravely mistaken.

Hey, even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and again.

...any thoughts on effective ways to be the change in off-line circumstances? maybe that is a different post?

Focusedpurpose, I don't want to derail this thread either, but in the next few days I'm going to address at least one aspect of this particular phenomenon on my blog. I'm going to talk about women taking relationship advice from men, particularly from men who have not proven themselves loyal. Steve Harvey has a relationship book out right now, and I see women always jumping to get relationship books from men. Harvey doesn't say anything most of us haven't said on our various blogs, for free. Yet they act as though his mouth is a prayer book. Uh, Harvey's been married how many times? My mama always told me if you want to grow tomatoes you need to take advice from someone who has tomatoes.

Men are naturally territorial, it's a tribal instinct thing. Even if they don't want you, they don't want someone from another tribe to have you. So, for myself I'd address the issue from that particular point: Men's loyalty is generally to themselves, then to other men, then to the women they sleep with. Any other woman is at best fourth in line. It's incumbent upon women to understand and realize this and process any 'advice' they give accordingly.

Felicity said...

Khadja, I was laughing my head off, but seriously, I have never seen so many bitter black men apart from them blogging, going on youtube. I really don't understand, if you don't agree why go on the other person's blog. These people are demon possesed and they need a set of the Lord's angels to visit their internet.
Excellent points as always, I thoroughly enjoy your blog.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Roslyn!

You said, "Hey, even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and again."

{chuckling} You know...you're right! *Smile* Thanks for that!

You said, "Focusedpurpose, I don't want to derail this thread either, but in the next few days I'm going to address at least one aspect of this particular phenomenon on my blog. I'm going to talk about women taking relationship advice from men, particularly from men who have not proven themselves loyal."

Great! As I've always stressed, I am NOT a guru! I'm just somebody facilitating the conversations here. I look forward to reading your post about this. {Ooooh---getting excited} I'm ready and eager to listen and learn!

You said, "Steve Harvey has a relationship book out right now, and I see women always jumping to get relationship books from men. Harvey doesn't say anything most of us haven't said on our various blogs, for free. Yet they act as though his mouth is a prayer book. Uh, Harvey's been married how many times?"

I've never noticed this pattern before, but now that you've mentioned it, you're absolutely right! This is utterly insane! [I wonder if this is a spillover from BW's ingrained patterns of hanging on the words of male religious leaders.]

You said, "Men are naturally territorial, it's a tribal instinct thing. Even if they don't want you, they don't want someone from another tribe to have you. So, for myself I'd address the issue from that particular point: Men's loyalty is generally to themselves, then to other men, then to the women they sleep with. Any other woman is at best fourth in line. It's incumbent upon women to understand and realize this and process any 'advice' they give accordingly."

BREAK IT DOWN! {raised black glove}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

Greetings, Felicity!

Thank you for your kind words about the blog; I truly appreciate it.

You said, "These people are demon possesed and they need a set of the Lord's angels to visit their internet."

True that! {chuckling}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

@ Energizer


"I'm curious to know if you think this encroaching on other folks' boundaries is a new phenomenon or one that you think has been around before. Do you think it depends on race, socioeconomic status, personal upbringing, or some other factor?"



God I would love to know the answer to this too. I have been noticing this more and more myself and have been on the receiving end of this in real life.



I seem to meet all the headcases who think it is my job to talk to them, speak to them, smile at them, explain my life circumstances to them, let them evangelize me - no matter how creepy and random they are to me.




"One subtle complaint that I've had for awhile is that a lot of folks are so bold nowadays and see no problem with placing themselves in your personal space. And what surprises me even more are the people who think this is NORMAL and that they have to accept it."



This is so timely. I had an incident two days ago that has taken me two days to recover from.


I was getting some gas in a gas station. I was at the counter and my wallet was open. While the clerk and I were in the middle of the transaction this arm reaches across my open wallet and hands the clerk a 10 or 20 and this woman tells the clerk to give her 2 packs of newports.


I was stunned. I turned and looked and this woman was so close up on me, had she been a man, I would have to take a pregnancy test. I couldn't turn completely around to look at her - she was that close to me.


She looked at me and asked is there a problem? Still stunned I turned and looked at the clerk who had messed up my purchase bc she was distracted by this woman talking to her while I was talking to her. I corrected the clerk and put my wallet in my purse and the woman said, I didn't think so.


I didn't think so must be the international phrase of public beatdown.

Suddenly a bolt of lightening struck me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I had so much fire in my veins before I could think - I turned and exploded into a string of unstoppable four letter words. I have no memory of what I said, what I was doing, when I grabbed my purchase... All I remember is being outside the door and yelling, " And you are old enough to know better!"


I am not an angry person. I am not a violent person. I am embarrassed by this outburst. But I felt so threatened, backed into a corner, and in the back of my mind I felt as if this nut might hurt me.


Which I realized when I got in the car. I realized that this freak could have had a gun, a knife, she could have wiped the store down with me. I was shaking so badly with fear and rage it took me 10 minutes to be able to start the car and drive.




"Reverend Lisa mentioned on her blog once about how she has encountered people in public who see no problem coming up to her and asking her personal questions about how much her outfit costs or something of that nature.

... but I feel that more and more...there is an expectation among people that you should be willing to answer ANY question somebody asks you, no matter how invasive it is."


I get versions of this all the time. Whether it is travel, education, where I lived in Cali. How am I doing x,y,z - from whites and blacks of all ages. Just all up in my finances, dietary habits, colon health, uterus - you name it.


I had one bank teller ask me where was I getting all this money from one day when I made a deposit. I wanted to tell her just report me to homeland security ok.


I can't help it - I get so offended when this happens.


The thing is I take it personally as if they were saying I shouldn't be doing these thing.


I had an ex friend (I have been going through them like toilet paper lately) who asked me why, after I told him that one of my new goals was to go somewhere in Europe. Mind you he has been twice.



"I read several forums about black hair care and one thing that is always so amusing to me are the women who will walk up to a complete stranger on the street and ask her all kinds of invasive questions about her hair and what she's doing to it, but they have the AUDACITY to get upset when the woman blows them off..."



Try touch. I get people who will walk up to me and grab my hair, or pull on it, or fluff it, run their fingers through it in addition to asking is it real, what do I do to it....

I don't mind it when someone compliments me. If I am in the right frame of mind I might share a tip or two if someone asks, but I get really upset when people touch me and people of all races do this to me. I even had a WM in a class in undergrad place his hand on the crown of my head once.

Aphrodite said...

@ Beverly

I am so sorry to hear of your friend and her difficulties, your other friend who is afraid to say no, and about you being accosted in the store. I can totally see the Rwanda/Congo coming on. I mean where do these creeps get off demanding that you have to look smile at and speak to them? Demanding this from unknown random women?

I have also noticed that BM are quick to verbally assault BW. I have been on the receiving end of this quite a few times throughout the years bc I wouldn't acknowledge a BM - and this is a part of my fear of men.

Aphrodite said...

Khadija,


"Since you had this experience, you have to know the level of rage and hatred that these IITs have for BW. You have to know that the only thing keeping some of these IITs in semi-check is their fear of consequences via law enforcement.

Given that you have to know these things, why would you expect these men to "want to listen to the other side of the story"?

Why would you expect men who HATE BW and men who would like to beat, rape, and KILL BW to do anything except "attack, debase and berate women who disagree with them." What did you think they were going to do? Listen to reason?

Ladies, I'm NOT exaggerating when I compare these IITs to the Klan and the Nazis. Many of these IITs want us DEAD. Period. And most so-called "good BM" would passively watch the IITs KILL us. "


PVW said

"They believe they are entitled to engage in harmful control over black women, and they will do so with all the tools at their disposal."


That makes me so sick. I had no idea that it was this deep. I have never had a blog. I was aware that monkeynuts would show up, I thought it was isolated. I had no idea the level of evil that you guys were out there fielding from these people. I knew that men could be threatening in real life, but I thought that these guys online were the random 15 year old out in his moms basement.


You all are some brave women indeed and I really appreciate what you guys are doing bc in light of these types of threats - potentially to your personal safety offline - I know many women would not do this at all.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija

"I'm wondering what's wrong with these women that would cause them to seek/take counsel from men who have CLEARLY demonstrated a lack of regard for them. I believe that this particular mental distortion/defect is the underlying "straw" that needs to be removed. I would work to counteract whatever is causing this sort of confused/distorted thinking.

Are they listening to these obviously-lying BM because they've been mesmerized by the fake "Black unity" song? Are they listening to these BM (and ignoring the evidence of their own eyes of non-BM's interest) becaue they are afraid of the backlash from the so-called Black community if they date non-BM?"




I think it is a mixture of the black unity doctrine, but I think BW feel that they don't have any options.

As enlightened said, BM are quick to tell a BW how undesireable/unattractive she is as a woman to any other group of men physically and personality wise.

If a BW is underexposed and not seeking outside experiences - she will believe it. The popular saying that is like nails on a blackboard to me is: that BW are at the bottom of the totem pole - while BM are highly desired and sought after. They point out that if all these other men really wanted BW they would already be mating marrying them whereas BM have tons of Becky's, Maria's and Mings as visible proof that they can call on. They also point out that WM and other men don't want to lose their privilege by marrying a BW - that would be a huge step down for a non-BM.


Then there is the WM/ other men only want you for sex and will use you and dump you (as she also mentioned)- makes no sense to believe considering the OOW rate, but they trot out the WM and slave rape to back that up. I have had this one thrown my way quite a few times.

I think that if a BW looks at this from the pathologies of the community - she won't question it. She will think if BM are this way then all men are this way - so I might as well stick with the devil I know bc if I get out there and something bad happens BM will not protect me. Not that they are protecting BW now, but BM love to use that one- when he does x,y,z don't come crawling back and that may be a real threat for some BW.





Then BM dangle carrots to BW who believe in black unity. They tell them we only use WW and other nonblack women for sex, money, but we will come home to you. We are just sowing oats, but when we settle down we will come for our strong black queens.


Or they dangle the carrot by giving these impossible list of requirements like if you could be like Becky and give me more of this sexually or be more submissive.

Which gives a false hope to the unity minded sister that this is within her control. That there is something she can do to change it around bc well everything wrong in the black community is the BW'S fault anyway according to some BM.


Maybe that is why BW listen to BM. They are waiting for the other side of the contract. They think that there is something they can do to bring the brotha's back home. They think they have no options bc they are at the "bottom of the totem pole".

Golden Silence said...

"This statement concerns me. It concerns me because it's not sinking in with many of us that these IITs are MORTAL ENEMIES of BW."

Honestly, I have nothing to fear from a nameless, faceless troll on the Internet. Sure they infuriate me, but in all honesty a lot of them are all talk and no moves. I'm not concerned that an anonymous loser is going to track me down and stalk me. Call me naive, one who's wearing rose-colored glasses, but I can't fear that. I'm not going to let these fools consume me with paranoia.

I'm more afraid of the ones I see in real life, the men who hang out on the streets and threaten me with physical violence because I reject their "hollas." Those real-life, real-time threats are more worrisome to me.

foreverloyal said...

Roslyn has excellent relationship advice. Go to her site, and scroll ALL the way down to "Categories." Select "Free Lessons"
It's gold I tell ya, gold!

Khadija said...

Hello there, Golden Silence!

I'm pursuing this particular point because it's a matter of BW's safety.

Earlier, you said, "When I ran an anti-street harassment blog (it's been defunct for at least a year now---I let the IITs and others get to me)..."

Most recently, you said, "Honestly, I have nothing to fear from a nameless, faceless troll on the Internet. Sure they infuriate me, but in all honesty a lot of them are all talk and no moves. I'm not concerned that an anonymous loser is going to track me down and stalk me. Call me naive, one who's wearing rose-colored glasses, but I can't fear that. I'm not going to let these fools consume me with paranoia."

So, on the one hand, the Internet Ike Turners chased you off of your own blog. These IITs forced you to shut down your own blog.

On the other hand, you characterize acknowledging the threat that some of the IITs pose as "paranoia."

This sounds like denial. Denial that BW as a group CAN'T afford to engage in at this point in time. You're welcome to believe that the IITs are harmless if that is your choice. Good luck with that. Good luck and God bless.

However, I would caution all who will listen that this is NOT a prudent attitude to take. Not at all.

I would also caution all who will listen that there really is no meaningful ranking of threats. You have no direct way of knowing what various miscreants are plotting until they act on their wishes.

It's best for women to be proactive about their personal safety. This is not about "paranoia," it's about BW taking reasonable safety precautions before they are attacked. This requires us to think things through before stepping out.

The bottom line is that BW are in GRAVE and increasing danger among other Black people.
The primary threat to our safety is coming from DBRBM. In any and every venue, the main threat is coming from BM. Whether it is groping, frisking and other harassment on the street; to stalking, harassment, and death threats online.

ALL of these threats should be faced, taken seriously, and dealt with. Instead of relying upon denial and bravado.

Peace, blessings, and solidarity.

Enlightened said...

@Aphrodite,

I'm glad its not just me wondering these things. That woman at the gas station was completely out of line.

Khadija, thank you for your response also!


You all would probably laugh if you knew how many DBRBM curse the invention of the iPod (especially in large cities with public transit). Why? Because now women walk around with earplugs in so they don't notice when these fools try to holla or make comments.Their old methods of catcalling and "Yo baby you gotta man?" comments have been rendered completely ineffective by the iPod and they are beside themselves trying to figure out what to do.

I used to read a messageboard mostly populated by DBRBM and I laughed out loud when one of them started a thread about how none of these sistas respond to them anymore because "they can't hear".

I also know women who will walk around wearing earplugs connected to a broken iPod just so they can avoid dealing with some of these losers. It really is a shame that some sistas have to go to such an extreme just to be left alone.
That "Black Women Walking" film brought the DBRBM traits out in the open from brothas who I thought were actually decent. A lot of comments I heard were "Those chicks are lying about the extent of the disrespect they experienced", "They're ugly and no brothas are trying to holla at them for anything besides sex", "They think they're cuter than what they are"...I mean, ALL the blame was placed at the feet of the women in the video. Nevermind that black women have gotten killed for rejecting some clown's advances. Nevermind that women I know have had drinks poured on them for rejecting a man's advances (I know ya'll remember the "Nothing but a G Thang" video where a DBRBM pours a whole 40 oz bottle of malt liquor over some girl who must think she's "too cute" to be there).

Its just absolutely ridiculous, the entitlement these men have. How do we combat this? I mean clearly, this issue is widespread. I think a lot of black women are more uncomfortable with these advances than they'll let on. But because its clear that the lives and safety of black women is the last priority on the list for law enforcement, they tolerate it. Even overcompensating with niceness, as another poster mentioned. Is it really gonna come down to us learning self defense or carrying weapons on us in the event that some fool jumps stupid?

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

About the invasive questions, you said, "I get versions of this all the time. Whether it is travel, education, where I lived in Cali. How am I doing x,y,z - from whites and blacks of all ages. Just all up in my finances, dietary habits, colon health, uterus - you name it."

"Just all up in my finances, dietary habits, colon health, uterus..." {loud laughter}

I'm so sorry to hear of the gas station incident. That was horrible. All I can really offer is that I've become very watchful about my personal space after years in the court system.

I never completely turn my back on clients. I never completely turn my back on the customers behind me in the checkout line. I'm more at a 45-degree angle. So I can see the judge AND the client. So I can see the cashier AND whoever's standing behind me in line.

It's a disgrace that it's come to all of this.

You said, "That makes me so sick. I had no idea that it was this deep. I have never had a blog. I was aware that monkeynuts would show up, I thought it was isolated."

No. It's not isolated at all. Women really need to think all this through in advance. I would urge everyone to read the following blogpost:

http://renaissanceblackwoman.blogspot.com/2008/
11/im-fed-up-gotta-put-him-on-blast.html

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

The blog post I just mentioned is from the blog Renaissance Black Woman. The blog address is at renaissanceblackwoman.blogspot.com.

The post is from 11-7-08 entitled, "I'm fed up...gotta put him on blast!"

I'm not going to name the IIT that she describes here [the policy is NO publicity for IIT demons on this blog], but here's part of what she said in that post:

"For the past 3 days I have been harassed via email, this blog, my shoutbox, and my youtube videos. I chose NOT to say who the person was because I didn't want to draw any attention to someone so ignorant. But now I don't give a f*ck. I feel like its my civil blog duty to put him on blast after finding out that I am NOT the only woman that he has been harassing.

Several women in the blog world said that he is either harassing them as well, or has harassed them in the past. I won't put any of the ones who emailed me about it out there but it has even gone as far as him harassing some of them on the phone.

I know its seems weird, but a couple bloggers have my phone number (simply because of the blog meet-ups) and you never think anything of it, but I'm glad I was smart enough not to ever give this fool my number and so glad he was not a blogger that I have ever met in person."


Peace, blessings and solidarity.

focusedpurpose said...

hi all-

thanks for the feedback.

Roslyn, will you please provide a link to your blog? i want to check out your post.

Khadija, i know you are not a guru sis. i just greatly respect/appreciate your insight and want to be effective in my efforts. i have my way of doing things. seeking wise counsel, only serves to make my way...better.

hi PVW! thanks for your response. i want to clarify a few things. my effort to not stray too far from ITT topic, may have not made my questions clear.

i want to make it clear, i was taught early and hold fast to the teaching; if someone is acting a fool and i start acting a fool...EVERYONE is acting a fool. there is no honor in that. like the plague, i avoid those that are vexing to my spirit. at no time will you find me arguing with men. especially when there are so many that will see no wrong in putting their hands on me or any other woman for that matter. i will tell folks they are right and keep it moving in a heartbeat. i don't want to be right, i want peace and justice. verbal and physical violence will interrupt my peace. it is not worth it more times than not.

in my off-line experiences, i see clearly when roadblocks are erected and efforts to keep bw in "their place" happen. allow me to put it in context.

for example, not too long ago, i found myself in a social setting. it was a mixed group of people. there were young attractive bw receiving the attention of clearly interested non bm. no one was soliciting the advice of bm. as i observed and worked my way around talking to folks, i noticed the roadblocks being erected. there was one particularly vocal bm that made a point of telling a few of the bw how other men couldn't/wouldn't be able to really appreciate them.

as i listened to the drivel, i addressed the bw not the bm. i proceeded to speak to the lie of his statements, in a light conversational way. at no time did i address the bm nor he me.

of the three bw one of them drew closer to me and we talked and moved around talking to others together. the other two seemed stuck as a result of his unsolicited "speech".

it seems that some bw are allowing themselves to be discouraged by the random bm that have reserved the right to block them from exercising their options. when i see it, i feel compelled to act to counteract it.

make no mistake, i am not arguing with folks nor acting a fool. oftentimes these bw don't even know the bm that they allow to guilt-trip them into not exercising their options.

where i live, i see this often. in fact, i have had strange bm try it with me. the total shock when i apply the firm, polite, lady-like smackdown is truly worth the price of admission. lol! i simply was seeking input as to how others might handle such situations.

especially since i have recently felt compelled to engage ITTs, which proved to be a total waste of key-strokes and precious. again, i want to be effective.

blessings,
focusedpurpose

Khadija said...

Hello there, Enlightened!

You said, "Its just absolutely ridiculous, the entitlement these men have. How do we combat this? I mean clearly, this issue is widespread. I think a lot of black women are more uncomfortable with these advances than they'll let on. But because its clear that the lives and safety of black women is the last priority on the list for law enforcement, they tolerate it. Even overcompensating with niceness, as another poster mentioned. Is it really gonna come down to us learning self defense or carrying weapons on us in the event that some fool jumps stupid?"

I believe that it comes down to using ALL of the tools available to us:

1-Physically removing ourselves from Black residential areas and Black social gatherings.

2-Calling down WHITE HEAT (White law enforcement) on the Negroes who engage in this behavior in public areas. [Hat tip to Felicia for breaking this angle down! *Smile*] BW almost never call the police on these menacing jigs. Obviously, we need to start calling the police (once we've gotten a safe distance away from the harasser).

3-BW must start learning physical self-defense. What I've learned from years of martial arts classes is that Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a fantasy.

Even small men are simply physically stronger than most women; so the odds of being able to kickbox some guy's a** are not promising. Especially when it comes to ex-cons who have been working out in prison for 5-6 hours a day for years. It's NOT a good strategy to hang around to try to fight a guy.

However, even small women (I'm a small woman) CAN learn and effectively apply self-defense techniques to:

-get out of choke holds
-get out of wrist grabs
-get out of bear hugs

We CAN learn to get out of these restraint techniques and RUN for our lives!

4-Those BW who have the WILL to KILL to save their own lives MUST legally obtain and learn to use firearms. Anyone who lacks the will to kill to save themselves (or their loved ones) MUST leave guns alone!

I've talked at length to my law enforcement acquaintances (those who have actually shot perps) about the reality of guns. They have all stressed that if a woman lacks the will to use a gun, she won't be able to use it effectively, and the assailant will most likely take it away from her.

And you have to be mentally prepared to SHOOT TO KILL on the first shot---no fooling around with just trying to wound somebody. [Real life is not like the 1950s westerns where the hero shot the villian in the wrist. NO.]

From what I can tell, most women (due to socialization) lack the will to do this. I'm waiting for my local jurisdiction to change its gun laws so I can get 9mm hangun, and take classes.

[Also note that the reality of shooting is not at all like tv. A boyfriend used to take me to the firing range. I was surprised at the sensations involved with shooting: the recoil, the noise, the bullet casings flying around.]
___________________

Hello there, FocusedPurpose!

In reference to the situation you mentioned earlier, you said, "as i listened to the drivel, i addressed the bw not the bm. i proceeded to speak to the lie of his statements, in a light conversational way. at no time did i address the bm nor he me.

...it seems that some bw are allowing themselves to be discouraged by the random bm that have reserved the right to block them from exercising their options. when i see it, i feel compelled to act to counteract it.

make no mistake, i am not arguing with folks nor acting a fool. oftentimes these bw don't even know the bm that they allow to guilt-trip them into not exercising their options."


Thanks for putting this into context; now I understand what you meant earlier. I would have done the same exact thing that you did.

My whole thing is that I don't (and won't) waste my time arguing with BM about anything. I will address other BW, and explain the folly of listening to BM who are trying to block all avenues to abundant life for BW.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

@Focusedpurpose, here's the link, http://roslynholcomb.wordpress.com/2009/03/15/free-lesson-17-dont-take-relationship-advice-from-men/. I'll probably add to it later, I've got a few more points that will probably be another post.

I agree with Khadijah, I think you handled the situation exactly right. That would've been my response as well.

As for self-defense, I'm ex-military and have also worked in law enforcement. I have some experience with firearms and various methods of self-defense. I've owned several guns over the years, though I don't any longer as I have a small child. I do, however still have one of my favorite weapons: an axe handle. Axe handles are convenient, come in various lengths and are made of hickory. They're not breaking anytime soon.

Regardless of what weapon you choose you must be prepared to use it. Yes, I've actually hit someone with an axe handle and would do so again. I've never shot anyone (I don't know, there's something about the sound of a shotgun round being chucked into the chamber that brings sanity to even the craziest fool.) For women, I particularly like shotguns because of its ease of use. No matter what though, you have to practice and be prepared to kill. If not, you're better off without a weapon at all.

My stalker employed some of the most vile and disgusting tactics ever known at a time when I was at my most vulnerable. I won't go into details, but yes, it hurt me deeply. Fortunately, it also enraged me, and I didn't hesitate to bring down law enforcement on his head. (No 'loyalty' from me to those who would destroy me.) I know a lot of cops, and they were all about checking this beast with the quickness. Black women must never hesitate to use whatever means necessary to protect themselves and their vulnerable children. As women we can get a strong response from law enforcement, this hesitancy to use it is baffling and can be deadly.

Aphrodite said...

@ roslynholcomb

I am so sorry to hear about the stalker. All of you have given me a lot to think about when it comes to being a woman online.




Re guns in general.

I have been doing some research bc I was thinking that our firepower is a bit old and I have gotten a bit rusty. I was looking online at different sites for women and guns just to get ideas and I was thinking I could spend maybe 100-200 or something.

I was so wrong. I realized that our firepower is definitely old and outdated and to get a decent gun (maybe it was the ones I was drawn to), but they cost a mint.


You should budget at least a grand to be on the safe side. The cheapest ones I have found range from 350-450 and that is not counting ammo and accessories.

The ones I was looking at were in the 700-900 range. Of course there are pawn shops, but I am not comfortable with that.


@ roslyn

I have never fired a shotgun although I have relatives that own them. I was always thinking/afraid that the recoil with a shotgun would be similar to a rifle.

roslynholcomb said...

@Aphrodite, I've fired both and I definitely think the recoil is less with a shotgun. One of the things I like best about a shotgun is that it can be fired 'from the hip' so to speak, which makes it an easier gun for a woman to use. Our hips are stronger than our upper body, and it allows us to be more sturdy while using it. I haven't shopped for a gun in a long time, but it's my understanding that there are some that are more female friendly. Be sure to ask your vendor.

Felicia said...

2-Calling down WHITE HEAT (White law enforcement) on the Negroes who engage in this behavior in public areas. [Hat tip to Felicia for breaking this angle down! *Smile*] BW almost never call the police on these menacing jigs. Obviously, we need to start calling the police (once we've gotten a safe distance away from the harasser).

THANKS for the hat tip Khadija!lol

Seriously, it's a MUST. Bringing WHITE HEAT down on their damaged behinds. But ALWAYS taking safety FIRST into consideration. Like the way I handled it.

That simple act might have made at least one of those thugs think twice about publicly harassing a sister again. At least in front of THAT library.

It's VITALLY important for these sick butts to get it through their thick damaged skulls that ALL BW don't play that "ah he's brotha" MESS. When these fools mess up - like they did on that day when I was PMSing - they deserve EVERY bit of "harassment" (legitimate police investigation) they get.

And if the cop happens to be racist/corrupt oh well... That's Karma in my book.

In these situations often the "brotha" is simply receiving the SAME mistreatment/disdain that he's shown BW.

The hatred they've put forth into the universe has boomeranged back at bit them in the behind.

It's justice in the end.

If BM (DBR and non) seriously wish to stop being harassed, profiled, looked at with supsecion/disdain, being racially discriminated against, etc...

Then they're going to have start making some overdue BEHAVIORAL changes FIRST.

And if they're not willing to do that - and many if not most clearly aren't - their hypocritical cries/complaints/tirades are going to increasingly be falling on DEAF EARS.

I'm so HAPPY these blogs are helping to get the word out that BW DON'T have to stay on a sinking ship AND they don't have to save/defend, OR protect (from "The Man") damaged Negro males who mean them NO GOOD.

Evia said...

Khadija, since this is a table-talk for activist thresd, I'm going to bring up a sticky, possibly explosive issue that severely impacts what we do and it will also seriously affect the re-branding effort.

If we don't talk about this 'dirty laundry,' it'll continue to eat away at TRUST between bw. It keeps many potential bw bloggers from setting up sites to spread the message further. So we need to air this "stuff." However, if you think it's too volatile, then I understand and accept your decision not to post this, but it is going to have to be dealt with.

So far, we've tended to focus a lot more on the Ikes but the Ikettes are equally vicious; they just operate differently. Since this is a potential thorn in a typical bw activist's side and since as I said, it implants fear in other bw would-be bloggers, I'm bringing this issue here.

First, let me say that there are many wonderful notes that I receive everyday from bw, wm, nonbw and even sometimes from bm applauding me for what I do to uplift bw, but the downside of receiving many notes is that some of these notewriters keep me informed about who is badmouthing me by sending links to other sites where this is going on, and sometimes late at night I check out these links.

Even though I've asked people not to send me these links, they continue to do it. I realize that sometimes, there's a malicious purpose for them informing me of this or that but many of the notewriters have good intentions and just don't like what's being said about me/my message and/or are trying to protect me. I can tell the difference. It's so touching to know that people are watching my back or guarding me: the messenger of a message that's valuable to them and other bw.

There are SOME people out there who really CARE about what we're doing. And it never fails that sometimes when I'm ready to just quit and focus on other projects, these folks seem to sense it and will bombard me with notes of appreciation for what I do, and ask me not to leave. You will have the same experience.

Some of these folks may not have the courage to be out front on the offense like us, but their defense moves and backing of us are just top drawer quality. So, we also need to give high praise to the army of folks out there who watch our backs--in all the various ways they do it.

And Khadija, now that you're a strong proponent of bw empowerment and I'm associated with you, these folks also tell me about who is badmouthing YOU. LOL!

So back to the Ikettes. The Ikes can't get in here, but a typical Ikette will sit up here in your bloghouse and use up your time, chatting back and forth with you 'grinning and skinning' and then go to other sites and snipe at you to damage your message and to get herself accepted by others at those other sites. That's the price of admission at some of these other sites. The Ikette also does it to win internet friends because many of them feel very alone and friendless in their offline life. So they're willing to backstab us in order to win internet friends. They mostly try to damage us--the messengers-- because they can't touch the message. Anybody with any shred of brains KNOWS that our message is on point. So, instead these Ikettes work at destroying the messenger by nitpicking at us and imposing THEIR interpretation on what we say. They claim to be expert mindreaders! You mentioned this when you said that many people bring their damaged thinking to any new idea, philosophy, and impose their old, damaged thought process on that new perspective.

Then these Ikettes come back over here to grin and skin some more--and go and snipe some more. For some reason, they think they can do this without leaving a wide, blazing neon trail--ON THE INTERNET. LOL! The internet is about as PUBLIC as it gets. Some of them don't care if we know they're sniping, but others of them will actually try to deny their own statements when they're confronted with them. Whew!

I absolutely DETEST sneaky, cowardly people like that!!

I don't always agree with you, Halima, Felicia, PVW, Lisa, PVW, Sara, Pinky, etc. but I can discuss our points of disagreement with y'all and it won't even faze me or change the way I feel about you because I respect you and your right to disagree. You have PROVEN to me that you are honorable bw. I would never try to damage you or your credibility. But we have to accept that many bw don't know the first thing about respecting and honoring other bw.

Sometimes, when people butt heads or have opposing viewpoints, it's because they don't understand each other well enough at that point because we've all had LOTS of very different experiences. We really need to learn to ACCEPT the fact that we've all been shaped by different experiences and therefore we don't need to fight about that.

I can fight forever because I'm a fighter by nature, but I also know that MOST of the time, it's stupid to fight--because I always look at results. I'm results-oriented and pragmatic. And when you look at the results of most fights/wars on any level in history, you can quickly see that it was stupid to fight.

Re disagreeing with each other, for ex., months ago, I thought that Lisa was blaming way bw too much for their predicament. I was very impressed by her main message, but there was something about that aspect of her message that really irked me and rubbed me the wrong way. I pulled back from Lisa because I wanted to observe her over time. I knew that there was the strong possibility that I just didn't understand her message well enough. So I've observed her. I drop in over there sometimes--though her site is WORK--LOL! and I haven't had the time to do a good job at that type of work--responding to her questions. In other words, I didn't blame HER for me not understanding her message. I didn't start sniping at her from my site. I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Well, Lo and Behold, lately I've discovered from reading her comments here and some of her essays--that she and I are saying virtually the exact same thing! We're just saying it differently. Actually, all of us BWIRE (bw-ir and empowerment) writers are saying the same thing because it's just COMMON SENSE.

However, it seems that some bw just want to come to our sites and get a bone to carry somewhere else and snipe at us. Some bw just want to FIGHT each other because of their OWN issues: jealousy, insecurity, fear, etc. And they do a damage to other bw or ***try*** to do it and implant fear and dread in other potential bw bloggers.

This is one of the reasons why I told you that if other bw started speaking up to support me, I know they'll be attacked and some of these women cannot stand up to these attacks for reasons that another commenter explained here. These women are easily pounded to a pulp by the Ikettes while other bw sit back and watch, whereas they ALL should just jump in.

I saw a Civil Rights movie where the leader emphasized the following message to the black folks in this small southern town: "If you see a good (worthy) fight, jump in it." This means that if you see that a bw is under attack for defending a bw's empowerment message, then YOU need to get into that fight and do whatever you can.

So, if any re-branding effort is going to succeed, we're going to need to deal with this. We cannot ignore the Ikettes because they can infiltrate us easily. This means we've got to put their sneaky backstabs on front street.

We all need to learn better how to disagree with each other. We CAN disagree without being disagreeable.

For ex, Khadija, I know you don't like my use of the term "mammy," and you most likely don't like some of my other views also. LOL! I absolutely don't have a problem with that. On the other hand, I don't like SOME of your views re continental Africans or SOME of your views re biracials. I'm not going to back away from my use of the 'mammy' term and I don't expect for you to back away from your views either. I wouldn't respect you nearly as much if you did. People who change their views just because others don't agree are NOT ***solid*** to me. I don't trust them at all because I know that they might back me one second and switch up a second later and become a back stabber.

I've been accused of being intolerant of people who don't agree with me. Nothing could be farther from the truth. If I don't agree with them, I'll just tell them. And they can tell me when they disagree with me. We can even debate if they like, but there's a 99% chance that I'm STILL going to walk away without my views and they will walk away with theirs. But I've discovered that MOST of these folks get really ticked off if I don't agree with them. That's when they go somewhere else and snipe and then accuse me of being intolerant of THEIR opinions. LOL!!

For ex., some bw don't like the fact that I tell the truth about bm. They call that bm "bashing." I don't care whether they disagree with me; I'm still going to express my opinions about bm. These bw become intolerant of MY views because I don't stop talking about bm. Yet, they will go away and claim that I won't "let" them disagree with me. LOL! I don't have the power anyway to stop anyone from disagreeing with me.

See, I don't care whether they disagree with me; I'm STILL GOING TO EXPRESS MY VIEWS, and they can disagree with me, but I'm STILL going to express my views. In other words, they get ticked because I don't agree with THEM!

However, the main point is that we should be able to disagree and still support each other or at the very least not snipe at each other if we have similar/same objectives. All AA women and similar others should realize that we have many more commonalities than we have differences. But we should EXPECT the Ikes and Ikettes to point out those differences to keep the conflict going.

This brings me to Roslyn. Roslyn and I have had vehement disagreements, which were fine, but Roslyn then sat on other sites and sniped at me. I was sent a bunch of links about that. I hope Roslyn will explain why she did that because I believe that if she did it before, she'll do it again to me or to you, Khadija or some other bw empowerment blogger--when there's a disagreement. Others are well aware of what occurred.

In other words, we need to talk about how to handle disagreements inside the house--that is if we are all in this house. We need to establish a way to resolve conflicts inside the house because they are going to occur. I have tried in this comment to set up a sketchy model of how this can be done by being tactful but blunt.

We have to be TACTFUL but we need to get this stuff out on the table because if we don't do that, there'll never be enough trust to do anything beyond this.

So maybe the BWIRE activists and their "supporters" need a "Truth and Reconcilation" moment here--or just a "Truth" one?

Khadija said...

Evia,

I have to leave to go to work, but a quick reply before I go:

You're reading my mind again! LOL! I just finished typing an email warning another blogger about an Ikette who is infiltrating her discussions. Of course, this Ikette takes a TOTALLY different tone of voice when commenting on BW's blogs than she does...at...some...other...places that I shall NOT name.

The Ikettes are a serious problem that need to be dealt with in a separate post. I just haven't decided whether I should "name names" of people that I feel should be shunned from our online conversations as BW. I almost "named names" of some Ikettes in this post.

Also, there are several different (although sometimes overlapping) things going on:

1-There are the BM-identified Ikettes (or "mammys" as others---NOT me---choose to call them--LOL!);

2-There are BW who don't know how to disagree without becoming belligerent (I'm going to start enforcing some rules about that---I'm on a "No more foolishness from anybody" kick right now);

3-There are BW who can't let go of their class jealousies and hateration of anybody who didn't grow up poor;

4-There are BW who are jealous of the attention that other folks' blogs are getting;

5-The list of funky motives is almost endless.

Like I said earlier, I AM going to do a separate post about the various types of Ikettes, etc.; but I need to think certain angles through.

Please email me about this so we can discuss this off-blog before I do the post. I would appreciate some feedback before I do the post. Also, it might be good to have a consensus or coordinated strategy about dealing with this. I don't know. I'm still thinking some things through.


Peace and blessings,
Khadija

Anonymous said...

Hello
Just returned from Seattle. If there are any bw from Seattle who are reading this? Please go out and meet other men. I went out there and every bw or biracial bm was dating interracially. I only saw three bw/wm couples in the four days I was there for a conference. My college girlfriend who is single has not been in a relationship since she has been out there. She won't date a white man. When I was there wm were helping me with my luggage and being friendly too. So sister please wake up and stop being sleep in Seattle.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Hey there Khadija!

I am looking forward to your post on the various types of Ikettes!

There are women who CLAIM to be sooo committed to uplifting black women who are blatantly sabotaging the work of other black women bloggers out of jealousy and territorialism.

You've mentioned this and I have witnessed that quite a bit.

I think that naming names at your blog IS okay if:
(a) You have provided the links that offer the UNDENIABLE PROOF of your allegations,
(b) The person has engaged in this behavior at your own blog.

The problem I see with bloggers who attempt to launch allegations is that they provide NO PROOF at all. This practice of launching allegations with no proof reveals a dubious motive.

I would not write a post about what someone has engaged in at Evia's blog...that's HER house...unless I asked her if I can mention that.

If the person has NOT been to your blog with those shenanigans then I would first warn the blog host in an email and provide them with proof. If they do not ban the person, then you know what's up with that.

Ultimately, we can't decide for other blog hosts WHOSE comments they allow to appear in their comment sections. Some blog hosts are more lenient than other blog hosts.

Quite often, I have noticed some bloggers using the platform of a blog to address their "beef" with individuals. This tactic always comes across as petty.

If I have a problem with Khadija, I will contact Khadija directly and say so - woman to woman.

I will not take a ticket on the petty-train and post my rant at my blog like a sixth grader "alluding" to the person I have beef with. That is pure shadiness.

I've seen bloggers engaging in this deceitful conduct...even those who claim to be such devoted Christians.

I believe that black women empowerment bloggers need to work together to eliminate the activities of the black male aggressors and the Ikettes from our forums. Completely.

I may consider one person an Ikette (and show proof of their shenanigans at my blog) while you may not consider that person a deviant at all. That's why I think we should not create posts to mention what is happening at ANOTHER blog forum because then we create a "court of public opinion" at our blog where commenters will start adding their two cents. Is THAT really what we intended? No.

You've seen bloggers step into my forum claiming that I made statements that I have never made.

That is why we need to think this process through very thoroughly.

Suggestions:

1 - Go to the person directly BEFORE taking your "beef" public.
2 - When you go to the person, present links and undeniable evidence.
3 - Propose a solution when you go to the person. What do you want from that person - for them to like you? for them to stop bashing your blog? Be specific so that you can hold them accountable.

If someone told me, "Lisa, I'd like for you to stop writing about black women's issues since I write about them." I'd tell them to go jump off of a cliff and let them know that there are no territories in cyberspace that anyone owns.

4 - If all attempts to contact the person are being ignored (and you did not contact them with a petty approach) then ban the person from your blog. That's all you can do.

5 - If the person is bad-mouthing your blog at another blog, go to that blog host and ask that person to delete the comments. If they don't then you know what's up with that person who is permitting that pettiness in her forum.

6 - ALL empowement bloggers need to have a standing rule that we will not permit negative comments about other bloggers in our comment sections. (This keeps those on the petty-train from making a pit stop at our blogs.)

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

roslynholcomb said...

@Evia, I didn't snipe at you, I said bluntly on your site, and Halima's site and Sara's site precisely what my disagreements with you are. The three of you made it clear that disagreement on your sites would not be tolerated. Okay, fine, that's your prerogative, but I certainly never "grinned in your face" or any of these other accusations that you made. I'm not sure why it's necessary to bring that here. When I've disagreed with someone I've said bluntly what my disagreements were/are, I don't have any reason to go behind someone's back and certainly haven't said anything about you on other blogs that I didn't first state plainly and clearly on your blog. I think that a good portion of your message is damaging to black women. I said that TO YOUR FACE repeatedly. So, why would you find it necessary to WARN Khadija that I might go behind her back? I didn't go behind yours.

I don't agree with you. You don't agree with me. Fine. What does that have to do with Khadija? If I had disagreements with Khadija I would plainly state them TO KHADIJA, as I did WITH YOU.

I post on plenty of blogs where people like you, and plenty of others where people don't like you. And? I hope you don't think I'm going to censor my comments and my thoughts about you as though you're some type of sacred cow. That would be absurd considering that I didn't do so on your blog.

@Khadija, if you're convinced that I'm one of these so-called 'Ikettes,' I'll be more than happy to leave your blog.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Lisa, Evia, & Roslyn!

I basically divide these problems into 3 broad (sometimes overlapping) categories: Ikettes, backbiters and fools.

1-"Ikettes." By "Ikette," I mean a BW who goes to Internet Ike Turner blogs to bash BW bloggers. THAT sort of behavior is what it takes for me to consider somebody an Ikette. I'm NOT willing to let this type of behavior go.

2-Backbiters. I don't like this sort of behavior. It destroys fellowship, and undermines movements. However, I'm willing to let past incidents of backbiting go, as long as the person does not persist in doing it.

3-Fools. (3a-fools who don't know how to disagree without being disagreeable) and (3b-jealous, petty fools). Again, I'm willing to let this go, as long as the person does not persist in this behavior.

My line in the sand is with BW who go to Internet Ike Turner blogs to bash other BW bloggers. THAT sort of behavior is what it takes for me to call somebody an "Ikette." THAT is what I feel needs to be addressed.

As I've pondered this issue today, I've decided that "naming names" in this context would probably cause more harm than good in terms of my goals with this future post. I DON'T want to do anything at all that lends publicity to any individual Ike or Ikette. As I've said before, I have policies of NO open mics for demons and NO publicity for demons.

Also, let me stress that I'm NOT trying to dictate what other bloggers should do about the Ikettes (as I've defined them above). My concern (as with the other Table Talk posts) is that a LOT of folks don't seem to have thought ANY of this through at all.

For example, I see a number of BW bloggers that have individuals I consider to be "Ikettes" in their blogrolls.

When I see that, I wonder if it occurred to these women that perhaps it would be a good idea to try to screen folks before tossing them up on one's blogroll. I wonder if it occurred to them to keep their eyes open for what folks are doing on other blogs before lending them the credibility of being listed on their blogroll.

In terms of the backbiting: I expected that before I began. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of yucky, foul BW out there. Just because folks are oppressed doesn't mean that they're nice people. With the backbiting, I'm willing to take a "Go, and sin no more" posture.

By the way, I want to say a heartfelt THANK YOU to all of you who have "had my back" while other petty women were backbiting me on other blogs! It takes courage to stand up. I truly appreciate it! May God bless you. [Baraka Allahu feek!]

I consider the "Ikette" post I'm working on fair warning to all audience members that I will start enforcing accountability for certain types of destructive behavior. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody persists in these destructive behaviors, then I feel that they have voluntarily removed themselves from the fellowship that I'm trying to build. And they WON'T be welcome to participate at my blog discussions.

I can't (and would never try to) declare a criterion for anybody except myself in terms of how to handle the Ikettes, backbiters, and fools. That's not my business, and NOT my place. I'm simply declaring what I'M going to do. And I hope to give other bloggers some things to consider when they set their own policies.
______________________

Evia,

I don't know what the "beef" is between you and Roslyn. I generally refuse to be drawn into other folks' personal disputes. My only issue is with behavior that is undermining the goals of the BW empowerment blogs. You and Roslyn can discuss your "beef" among yourselves (or not---that is y'all's choice). _____________________

Roslyn,

You are welcome here on my blog.

Let me repeat what I just told Evia:

I don't know what the "beef" is between you and Evia. I generally refuse to be drawn into other folks' personal disputes. My only issue is with behavior that is undermining the goals of the BW empowerment blogs. You and Evia can discuss your "beef" among yourselves (or not---that is y'all's choice).

Peace and blessings,
Khadija

Evia said...

Khadija, I respect your views re what you want and don't want in bloghouse.

My understanding was that we were attempting to create guidelines of behavior for the general group of us bw empowerment bloggers with an eye towards the re-branding so that all would feel freer to transmit the bw uplift message. As it is, some potential bloggers and commenters don't feel free to blog or comment because they know they'll be attacked by Ikes and/or Ikettes. I won't name names either since this is not something you want in your bloghouse.

As for anything else, I'll let it drop. I made my point, so I'm satisfied. Anything beyond this would be destructive behavior.

Khadija said...

Evia,

I think that it's good to have as much coordination as possible in terms of policies. And I'm quite happy to coordinate (as much as possible) with those BW empowerment bloggers who want to coordinate policies.

But then it occurred to me that folks might feel like I'm trying to coerce them into following what I think is appropriate. I'm NOT trying to be Joseph Stalin here. LOL!

Maybe some general policy "suggestions" are a good idea.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

Well, I think the coordination idea would be GREAT! I'm not talking about this accountability and support for me, per se, because I feel free to say what I want to say already but there is fear out there among some bw wannabe bloggers and commenters and it suppresse them for reasons that a couple of commenters detailed in other comments either in this thread or another one here.

And I also want to THANK those bw who have my back on these other blogs. I am SO grateful!

focusedpurpose said...

hi all-

i wanted to share my two cents...

not too long ago, there was a comment that irked me to no end, made by a bw blogger. this comment resonated with me as snatching a sister's crown off of her head.

this comment was made at another bw blogger's house.

so committed was i to addressing the comment, i asked for the second blogger's permission via e-mail, to address the comment. i truly intended to do a post about the comment. i had a lot of thoughts about it, lol!(the comment was in no way directed at me btw. it was not at all personal.)

after thinking about how my words would be perceived, i decided to nix the post altogether. why?

i was concerned with the appearance of bw empowerment bloggers fighting. it is one thing to disagree and a whole other to fight with one another. when the women start fighting each other, the men win. good ole divide and conquer. only we divide and allow ourselves to be conquered as a direct result. i see it happen frequently.

now i have vehemently disagreed with pretty much all bloggers involved in this convo, at some time or other. lol! however, we all seem to have different ways of saying essentially the same thing. our consistent messages are for the empowerment of bw/bg. THAT to me is more important than anything else.

recently, i have extended patience with one that has through her own behavior demonstrated that she is an ikette. i met this silly one co-signing crazy when i was casting pearls before swine. however, her age made it "do-able" to indulge her. in her latest comment at my blog, which was promptly rejected, it is clear that she wants to employ nicety (both nice and nasty:-) to break my focus and purpose at my blog. i refuse. i.don't.suffer.fools.gladly. not even young ones. i release the notion believing fully that they and babies have added protection. lol! (ok, that cracked me up!:-)

Khadija, i would be perfectly fine adopting a unified front in dealing with those bw that feel it is ok to demean, degrade, and disrespect other bw that work on behalf of bw/bg. it is this successful practice that others employ regularly and routinely when protecting THEIR interests! we don't need to re-invent the wheel. plus, e-mail is always an option for working through the internal issues that need not ever see the light of day. MOST folks working together, at some point, have internal issues that need be addressed. those that cannot agree to disagree always have the option of ceasing communication in the interest of achieving the greater goal.

my two cents, thanks for letting me share them.

blessings,
focusedpurpose

Khadija said...

Focused Purpose,

I feel that those of us who want to coordinate efforts to deal with the Ikettes should discuss this in private. I'm still mulling over certain aspects of any proposed general guidelines. If you have any thoughts about that, please email me. As thoughts come to me, I'll get in touch with you.

Again, let me stress that I'm NOT trying to tell other bloggers what to do. I'm trying to raise awareness that this is an issue that activist BW bloggers need to consider and plan for.

It's one thing if an activist blogger has knowingly decided to allow an Ikette to participate at their blog. That's their prerogative.

My concern (that I express in the "Ikette" post---which is up by the way) is that it looks like many aspiring activist BW bloggers have NEVER thought about any of this.

And, as with the IIT situation, many of them look poised to fall into various traps as a result of not thinking through this particular issue. These pitfalls could have serious, negative consequences in the event that these unaware bloggers try to lead a blog campaign.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

@ Focused Purpose re:

i was concerned with the appearance of bw empowerment bloggers fighting. it is one thing to disagree and a whole other to fight with one another. when the women start fighting each other, the men win. good ole divide and conquer. only we divide and allow ourselves to be conquered as a direct result. i see it happen frequently.

FP, I agree. I'm VERY concerned about that too. Another thing we have to admit is that: some of the empowerment bloggers and commenters are WAY too far apart in their views to even try to pretend to work together as we have seen in recent comments, and I personally won't work with known Ikettes and backbiters unless they SHOW beyond a doubt that they can really change their tune. I think Khadija has even suggested that one guideline could be to give these women the opportunity to do that, but if they don't choose to do that, then IMO, that's it.

Having Like Minds or Similar minds as regards the mission and objective or a group of objectives is very important. That is what a community or any worthwhile coalition is. Other than that, you'll just have a cyber-CROWD of fighting people. This is why people with similar values and views tend to gravitate towards each other and they don't want others in their group because it doesn't work to include people with vastly different views and values. There'll be constant in-fighting. This doesn't mean those folks in the group have to agree on everything, but they have to have a large amount of agreement re aspects of the objectives.

I don't think we have to like everyone we work with or ally with, but I won't work with any so-called "ally" or bw-blogger who has a pattern of engaging in destructive attacks on other bw. That, to me, is an Ikette, no matter where she has attacked other bw. I'll just admit that I haven't evolved to that level, to be able to work with folks like that. LOL! If it's the consensus of Khadija and the budding coalition that I, Evia, have that type of destructive pattern of behavior towards other bw, I'll gladly remove myself from this effort because to me, it's MUCH more important that the coalition is created and thrives. The message is critically important to me. It is QUEEN; it's more important than any ONE or 2 or 3 of us. And IMO, that really MUST be a guideline too that no ONE person should be allowed to break the back of the MESSAGE. I avoid headperson-centered organizations anyway; I prefer GOAL-centered organizations.

And Khadija, to be objective about this, I already may be too controversial to be a part of this coalition. I'm always going to be controversial because I'm just expressing MY common sense views. I'm not willing to try to alter myself or suppress myself--even if I could. LOL!

now i have vehemently disagreed with pretty much all bloggers involved in this convo, at some time or other. lol! however, we all seem to have different ways of saying essentially the same thing. our consistent messages are for the empowerment of bw/bg. THAT to me is more important than anything else.

I think people are entitled to their vastly different opinions as long as they do it somewhere else and don't try to impose their vastly different opinions on me. You'll never catch me on anybody's blog getting nasty with them because I can easily stay away from their bloghouse. Some of these folks will be beating at the door to come up in your bloghouse, show you their butts, and then when you put them out, they then go all over cyberspace claiming you're intolerant of disagreement. They always neglect to mention what THEY did. LOL! If I'd allowed it, that's what a typical Ike or Ikette would do and they even ***STILL*** try to do. If these folks dislike me and my message SO MUCH, then why are they always calling my name or trying to get into MY blog to comment?????? I only go to a blog or stay around where I think I have common views with the blogowner.

I respect other peoples' bloghouses and if I see any inkling that we have a vastly different point of view, I leave. That's common sense to me. I believe that if two people have irreconcilable differences, they should just part and remain apart.

Halima said...

Khadija

I am waiting for the discussion on fools lol!

Let me say that focusepurpose and i believe yourself has also hinted at a kind of worrying naivety that seems to make bw easy to use against their own interests.

I think this all points back to the general 'indoctrination against interest', that bw recieve as they grow up, and which prepares them for easy use and results in a disabled sense of self-interest!

when i see bw busy contributing on bw disdaining websites, it reinforces for me how the warped belief system bw have adopted in interpretting the world and themselves and their relationship with bm, works to this effect.

I used to actively try to engage these bw and then I realised that the issue was the model these women were working to was entirely different from mine.

For many for instance, they have recieved the wisdom that bm are willing to work together with bw to resolve our issues and move the race forward, they believe the key concept of brotherhood and sisterhood still exists between bm and bw and this clouds their critical abilities to see what really pertains. Not forgetting also that bw are coerced by the belief that 'this is the way black people have to see this/these issues', into adhereing to these beliefs.

Indeed these women intepret diatribes that clearly demean bw as bm attempting to have dialogue with them. This why you find many in there trying to counter and defend themselves and make bm understand, the premise being that somehow we have to talk this thing through with each other and underneath all horridness must exist a 'will' for cooperation and partnership for the race's sake.

Now any other person can easily see that these men calling bw N%%$£, and H^&5 are not anywhere near genuine dialogue but somehow the belief system bw are operating in does not allow this conclussion to come through because all bm are brothers and we are really all just trying to work this thing out among ourselves.

That is why I think the most revolutionary thing Bw empowernment bloggers have done is to 'delegitimise' the widespread belief that all bm are brothers with only good intentions towards bw. and guess what, the evidence was there all along and bw could add it up easily apart from the adopted belief system of 'every bm is a brother just yearning to do good to his sister the bw'(as you said something psychological has been blocking that process).

I believe that even bw empowernment bloggers are unaware that they are regurgitating some of these status quo maintaining and zero yielding models in their activism. Many also have emotional attachments to certain approaches and cliches of blackness as a way of maintaining some nostaligic attachments to ideals deemed strong and black.

I can tell you now that another one of these zero return, status maintaining models is the one that says that bw and bm are equally responsible for the situation as it stands between bm and bw and within bc.

Any bw who adopts this idea and runs with it as an activist framework, is likely to accrue little returns.

Khadija said...

Focused Purpose & Evia,

Here's where my inclinations are with this:

1-I WON'T allow Ike Turners to comment here.

2-If it comes to my attention that a BF commenter has been visiting Ike Turner blogs to cheer for these Ike Turners and/or demean BW bloggers, then I WON'T allow that female to comment here.

3-If it comes to my attention that a BF commenter has been backbiting me at another blog, then I will confront that person with their past comments, and tell them "to go, and sin no more." If a BF commenter persists in backbiting after the warning, then I WON'T let that person comment here.

4-If I see a Type A Fool commenter becoming nasty & belligerent with their disagreement (as happened with the Flawless conversation); OR

a Type B Fool commenter who won't let go of their class-related jealousies (like the chicks that have unsuccessfully tried to leave comments here sniping at Rev. Lisa),

then I will give that person ONE warning. If they persist in this behavior, then they WON'T be welcome to comment at this blog.

I make a distinction between the Ikettes who are actively aiding and abetting Internet Ike Turners, and the rest of these destructive women. I understand that others might not feel that it's appropriate to make that particular distinction.

I agree that the backbiters and fools are VERY, VERY destructive. I just feel that they are entitled to ONE warning before being cut off from the fellowship. Truth be told, many of our people are quite savage (and getting worse) in their social habits. The screaming, neck-rolling "Jerry Springer audience" behavior is becoming the norm.

Many of these people might not know any better than to act like that. I suspect that many of these belligerent individuals and backbiters have never been required to behave in a more elevated fashion before.

Now, the tricky part is enforcing these boundaries (for a variety of reasons, some of which I'll only discuss off-blog).

As Evia said, "Some of these folks will be beating at the door to come up in your bloghouse, show you their butts, and then when you put them out, they then go all over cyberspace claiming you're intolerant of disagreement. They always neglect to mention what THEY did. LOL! If I'd allowed it, that's what a typical Ike or Ikette would do and they even ***STILL*** try to do. If these folks dislike me and my message SO MUCH, then why are they always calling my name or trying to get into MY blog to comment?????? I only go to a blog or stay around where I think I have common views with the blogowner."

This is where I believe the coordination part comes in. The backbiters have been able to engage in backbiting (mostly without consequences) because many of us aren't sharing information with each other.

A similar thing sometimes happens with the IITs. Sometimes IIT commenters are able to leave their droppings at one BF blog after another because they haven't yet been identified as a IIT by each succeeding BF blogger.

A lot of this can be eliminated if those BF bloggers who have a base of mutual trust start talking to each other about this. That's why I emailed the other blogger yesterday about the Ikette who has been stopping by her blog. I didn't know if the blogger was aware of this chick's activities on several IIT blogs.

My deal is that I DON'T want destructive, hateful women reaping ANY of the benefits of the fellowship that I'm trying to form here. I'm not trying to stop Ikettes and backbiters from talking about me or anybody else. I just don't want them coming HERE and enjoying the benefits of the fellowship HERE.

I believe that being able to get direct, HELPFUL feedback from the other readers and myself is a privilege, NOT a right. A privilege that can be forfeited by persisting in destructive behavior.

Also, people are often entrusting BW empowerment blogs with VERY sensitive and personal matters under discussion. I believe that commenters should be able to feel comfortable sharing what's important to them. These backbiters and belligerent individuals are destroying the trust with their behavior. This sort of behavior MUST be discouraged and sanctioned.

Part of the reason why the backbiting has gotten so far out of hand is that there hasn't been a coordinated effort to sanction it. Such as by being NOT welcome at more than one blog accompanied by a PUBLIC explanation (with supporting links) of why the backbiter is not welcome.

I believe that in general, Rev. Lisa's earlier suggestion to try to personally and privately engage offenders is good in normal circumstances. However, it's been my experience that TRUE SCUM (which is what some of these women are) will automatically LIE about the contents of any attempted private communication.

This is one reason why lawyers bring other people (called "provers") to interviews with witnesses.

If I suspected that a commenter is straight-up scum, I would NOT attempt to discuss my issue with them privately first. Doing so would only give them an opportunity to preemptively run around with fake emails that they deceptively claim are from me.

Foul heifers WILL tell lies. Lots of lies.

What I've learned (through unhappy observations in the court system) is that sometimes your sense of decency, decorum, and professionalism become weapons to be used against you by scummy individuals.

*Tip to Novice Bloggers* You gotta watch what you say and discuss in emails with readers. Some of these people are trying to set you up; or they might be trying to draw you into THEIR conflict with somebody else.

For example, Reader A might send you an email backbiting Reader/Blogger B. If you're not careful about how you respond (IF you choose to respond to backbiting emails---I generally DON'T), Reader A will show your email to Reader/Blogger B and other people without your knowledge and permission.

It can get like the schoolyard game of "talk about person A to person B; and then talk about person B to person A."

There are all sorts of foul games that various women are playing that have mostly gone unchecked.

*Note to readers* This is where you can help. If you want to help make THIS blog a safe and productive atmosphere, please send me (via email) links of backbiting comments that pertain to ANY BW-empowerment blogger. I might or might not openly deal with the backbiter if they try to come here. But I can't deal with things that I don't know about. So, please let me know.

Please know that I NEVER reveal my sources of information. I do my own research about certain matters, but I can't see and hear everything.

And please know that this is NOT a witchhunt. I simply want to keep this blog safe for us, for YOU to feel comfortable coming here to discuss matters that are important to you. I need your help to keep this blog safe from these predatory women who want to abuse this forum.

Evia, truth be told, I think that almost all of us are fairly polarizing in our own ways! LOL! That's inevitable when there's something at stake that people care about a great deal. We all care deeply about the fate of BW and girls.

So, I'm only talking in terms of those of us who WANT to share information and/or coordinate some of what we're doing in response to these destructive people. And those of us who have built a degree of mutual trust between ourselves.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Greetings to all,

Khadija, I am not trying to pat you on the back...but I feel that you and I are modeling appropriate ways to agree-to-disagree and move ON towards common goals.

Ladies, Khadija and I have a list of PERMANENT points of disagreement. We have identified them. We both agree that we will can debate these issues until Jesus returns ...and still not agree! *LOL*

So do we write posts about each other "alluding" to what we disagree on? No.

We have done the mature thing and we have just moved on to focus on the ideologies that we do have agreement on and we have chosen to focus on our common goal of empowering black women with life-enriching messages.

My focus is on examination and accountability. I don't have a kissy face approach to the issues. Sometimes I take the stance of a big sister and other times I take the stance of a drill sargeant! Sometimes my blog forum is a boot camp...and other times it is a support group and confessional. This is intentional.

I will not be coy in admitting that I have used approaches in conversation that Khadija thought were NOT effective.

How did she respond?

She took that off blog and she didn't just send a note to criticize or post some petty crap at her blog to "allude" to my blog or to me.

She offered another way for to present what I was trying to convey. I told her, "well, what I am trying to say is______" and Khadija's response was, "and doing________ is another approach to try." I tried her approach and it worked out better for me and the ladies in dialogue with me at my blog understood me differently.

So I give a BIG thank you publicly to Khadija for giving feedback one-to-one rather than back-biting.

I think that is one CRUCIAL step that many black women do not take when they "claim" they are "only saying this to help".

I agree that empowerment bloggers should NEVER give any appearance of public battles or brawls. That is extremely detrimental to the cause of uplifting black women.

These IITs would love to quote Khadija saying something about another black woman and then create a whole post about it just to discredit and disparage.

When I have watched other black women take petty approaches to addressing "beefs", it dawns on me that they don't realize the irreparable DAMAGE and the very inappropriate example they have set for the younger ones who read our blog forums.

I agree with Khadija that it is important to know about back-biters! I too would like to be made aware of those individuals and would require PROOF of the behavior that is being alleged. Otherwise, I do not want any "warnings" sent to me without written proof provided.

I think it's better to create a screen-capture because a person can post a comment and then run back and delete it days later.

If there are abusive male aggressors at your blogs, it's a good idea to record that person's IP address, location, and the monikers that person is using. It is important to share that with those black women bloggers who will NOT treat the information in a foul manner.

Some of these male aggressors have been to Evia's blog and were booted out and so now they are trolling around looking for some other black women's forums to launch their same vindictive routines - and they initially show up being very polite and reasonable.

The male aggressors who have been banned at my blog are not on a list but in my comment section, I name them. I believe that doing so gives sufficient warning to all of the sistas.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Khadija said...

Greetings, Halima!

You said, "I am waiting for the discussion on fools lol!"

The Backbiters and Foolish Styles of Disagreement will be combined in one post. Both of these behaviors are normal, natural human character flaws. Both of these behaviors stem from a lack of emotional discipline. However, both of these behaviors have historically done GREAT damage to Black leaders and Black movements. [Anyone remember COINTELPRO?]

You said, "Let me say that focusepurpose and i believe yourself has also hinted at a kind of worrying naivety that seems to make bw easy to use against their own interests."

Yes, this naivete is quite troubling to see in action.

You said, "when i see bw busy contributing on bw disdaining websites, it reinforces for me how the warped belief system bw have adopted in interpretting the world and themselves and their relationship with bm, works to this effect.

...For many for instance, they have recieved the wisdom that bm are willing to work together with bw to resolve our issues and move the race forward, they believe the key concept of brotherhood and sisterhood still exists between bm and bw and this clouds their critical abilities to see what really pertains.

...Indeed these women intepret diatribes that clearly demean bw as bm attempting to have dialogue with them. This why you find many in there trying to counter and defend themselves and make bm understand, the premise being that somehow we have to talk this thing through with each other and underneath all horridness must exist a 'will' for cooperation and partnership for the race's sake.

Now any other person can easily see that these men calling bw N%%$£, and H^&5 are not anywhere near genuine dialogue but somehow the belief system bw are operating in does not allow this conclussion to come through because all bm are brothers and we are really all just trying to work this thing out among ourselves."
[emphasis added]

Thank you for explaining the thought-distorting programming that is underlying this type of behavior. For the life of me, I couldn't figure any of this out.

Believing that an enemy is a friend will GUARANTEE that one remains oppressed. The mysteries of so many BW trying (in good faith) to engage IITs who are heaping abuse on them had my head spinning. This mystery had me scurrying to read what fundamentalist Islamic thinkers have been saying about an Islamic concept known as "Al-Wala wal-Bara" ["Allegiance and Association with the People of Faith, AND Enmity and Disassociation with the People of Disbelief"].

In short, the idea is that Muslims have a religious DUTY to dislike and distance themselves from those who are enemies of the faith! I previously felt that this was always a backwards, reactionary concept that only served to poison the relations between Muslims and non-Muslims.

However, in light of how many BW behave, I'm beginning to see the wisdom of this idea. Due to confusion and brainwashing, some people really DO have to be TOLD to stop hugging up on enemies who are working to harm them! Lord have mercy.

You said, "That is why I think the most revolutionary thing Bw empowernment bloggers have done is to 'delegitimise' the widespread belief that all bm are brothers with only good intentions towards bw. and guess what, the evidence was there all along and bw could add it up easily apart from the adopted belief system of 'every bm is a brother just yearning to do good to his sister the bw'(as you said something psychological has been blocking that process)."

I agree. I'm seeing just how critical this is.
____________________

Hello there, Lisa!

You said, "So I give a BIG thank you publicly to Khadija for giving feedback one-to-one rather than back-biting."

You're welcome! And let me note publicly that the benefit of our discussions has been mutual.

Let me note for the public that there has been one incident many months ago where Lisa "caught my hand" and convinced me NOT to do something that I see would have been quite damaging to the blog campaign regarding the racists at the Princeton Theological Seminary.

The only reason Lisa was able to prevent me from making this bad move was because I asked for her feedback in advance! Whenever I'm dealing with something extremely sensitive, I try to get feedback from others whose work I respect. This one practice has helped me greatly with my online work.

As Lisa noted, we have a list of points of PERMANENT disagreement that we could debate without any sort of resolution until Judgment Day. This never stopped me from recognizing the amount of wisdom and dedication that Lisa puts into her online work. This is why I sought out her input, DESPITE our unchanging points of disagreement. We have to get over the immature concept that folks have to be in total lockstep to be of mutual benefit to each other.

I've said this in earlier Table Talk discussions, but let me say it again: I can tell from some of the things that are happening that a lot of us are not talking to our peers. This is unwise. And the things that some of us are trying to do with our blogs suffer as a result of this.

I'm NOT trying to form any sort of "coalition." I'm happy with the results that I've already seen begin with this particular conversation: More of us are talking to each other and comparing notes about the destructive individuals who are trying to undermine our work. I think that these sorts of informal "pooling of information" are sufficient.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

foreverloyal said...

Always a good idea to delete meanies. I've only ever gotten one really vile message and I just deleted it.

Don't like meanies.

Khadija said...

Greetings, ForeverLoyal!

You said, "Always a good idea to delete meanies. I've only ever gotten one really vile message and I just deleted it.

Don't like meanies."


Yep. I don't either.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

JaliliMaster said...

" jazine said...
Peace, blessings and solidarity, Khadija!

I wish the blog owner (Aimee)of the now defunct Black Girls Rule had your guidelines. Her blog is now rotting in the wind thanks to the IITs. They have polluted her site with their cancerous rantings. She fell for all the trappings you highlighted. It's a shame. She was a brilliant blogger, but her weakness was trying to be fair to her so called dissenters. Her blog is an excellent example of what can happen if you let the IITs get out of hand. They will turn your site into a wasteland."


If u mean Black Girls Haven(with Aimee), I agree. That is the first place my mind went to when I saw this post. I got tired of arguing with the Ike's, and more so, was exasperated by the fact that they were still allowed to post, DESPITE the fact that it was obvious to everyone there that their only intention was to abuse, insult, intimidate black women, and to turn any and every discussion away from black women and to the suffering and pain of black men. That's why I eventually stopped going to the site, which was a ral shame, as she was a splendid blogger!

JaliliMaster said...

"recently, i have extended patience with one that has through her own behavior demonstrated that she is an ikette. i met this silly one co-signing crazy when i was casting pearls before swine. however, her age made it "do-able" to indulge her. in her latest comment at my blog, which was promptly rejected, it is clear that she wants to employ nicety (both nice and nasty:-) to break my focus and purpose at my blog. i refuse. i.don't.suffer.fools.gladly. not even young ones. i release the notion believing fully that they and babies have added protection. lol! (ok, that cracked me up!:-) "

fp, I know exactly who you are talking about, and I was surprised when many couldn't see through it. As I'm 21 myself, I REFUSE to make excuses for her age!

JaliliMaster said...

"a Type B Fool commenter who won't let go of their class-related jealousies (like the chicks that have unsuccessfully tried to leave comments here sniping at Rev. Lisa)"


I thought I was the only one who noticed that alot of the criticism Rev. Lisa got were from certain women who seemed to be offended that she didn't grow up poor. The class resentment was seething from their comments. I'm glad someone else noticed it as well.

JaliliMaster said...

"I believe that in general, Rev. Lisa's earlier suggestion to try to personally and privately engage offenders is good in normal circumstances. However, it's been my experience that TRUE SCUM (which is what some of these women are) will automatically LIE about the contents of any attempted private communication."

This is very true. I first noticed it some while ago with Evia. If you hear the story from the other lady, you.d think Evia was the devil. It was only AFTER Evia actually posted a few of the letters the lady had sent that one actually realised the woman was playing games. It was so silly as she was then trying to portray herself as the victim on some other sites. If I hadn't seen what she had written to Evia, I would have probably even believed her!

Khadija said...

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

You said, "I thought I was the only one who noticed that alot of the criticism Rev. Lisa got were from certain women who seemed to be offended that she didn't grow up poor. The class resentment was seething from their comments. I'm glad someone else noticed it as well."

Yes, the class jealousy OOZES through a lot of folks' comments. They try to pretend that their disagreement with her statements is about other topics (such as "elitism"), but the jealousy still seeps through. Some people have built whole vendettas against Lisa based on their class jealousies.

This sort of stuff is really damaging to the advancement of BW's interests.

For a long time, I wasn't sure how to further address that. This is part of what I tried to get at with the Self Purification: Run From Hateration and Arrogance post.

But it hasn't worked. The message hasn't gotten through. I'm going to have to address this more directly. I'm working on a separate Table Talk post dedicated to addressing jealousy. With a section devoted to "Reasons Why Some of Y'all Need to STOP Hating on Rev. Lisa."

You said, "If I hadn't seen what she had written to Evia, I would have probably even believed her!"

Sometimes it's best to let people see certain things for themselves. This is why I recently allowed a few "beef"-related comments through that I ordinarily wouldn't have published. It's hard to discuss certain things in the abstract. Sometimes a concrete example is needed to get certain points across.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

I haven't read Rev. Lisa's blog in a while (I think her filter is keeping me out) so I'm not sure if the comments are rather recent or not, but I do know that hateration is fairly common and you don't even have to be wealthy to experience it. I've talked before about the common mindset amongst black women, this tendency to approach everything from the position of lack. We feel ourselves to be impoverished whether we're talking financially, emotionally or romantically and thus we strike out at others who we feel have something that we don't.

My mama always said that nothing could block your blessings more effectively than hatred and resentment toward others. When you fill up on this you have no room left to receive your own.

Of course, this isn't only endemic with black women. We've seen time and again how economic difficulties bring out all manner of resentments, both at those who have more than we do and counter-intuitively, even those who have less.

I suspect that many black women are like an adult who went hungry in their youth. My mother was a child of the Depression, and she stockpiled food, a habit I've seen from many of that era. To me, many black women are the same because we're coming from a position of lack.

Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to show someone with that mindset that others gain is not necessarily their loss. Life is so not a zero sum game.

roslynholcomb said...

I had an IIT-swarm this morning on my blog. Apparently they took umbrage with my post on not taking relationship advice from men. Actually from the IPs, I'm taking that it was only one or two guys. Interestingly enough, posting from a US State Department server!

Anyway, they approached all 'reasonably' at first, then when I deleted their posts without comment they came back accusing me of being 'childish' or not allowing 'free discussion.' Where on my blog have I ever said that it was open to free discussion? -lol- My blog is primarily there to promote my books. I do some advice posts and comment on other issues as they arise, but no way am I allowing any 'women are at fault' commentary on MY blog.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Roslyn!

You said, "I had an IIT-swarm this morning on my blog. Apparently they took umbrage with my post on not taking relationship advice from men. Actually from the IPs, I'm taking that it was only one or two guys. Interestingly enough, posting from a US State Department server!"

This is what I find so peculiar and comical about these IITs. Normal, healthy men are NOT preoccupied with women's conversations. Real men's attention is focused on competing with other MEN.

You said, "Anyway, they approached all 'reasonably' at first, then when I deleted their posts without comment they came back accusing me of being 'childish' or not allowing 'free discussion.' Where on my blog have I ever said that it was open to free discussion? -lol- My blog is primarily there to promote my books. I do some advice posts and comment on other issues as they arise, but no way am I allowing any 'women are at fault' commentary on MY blog."

Yep. It shocks and frustrates the IITs when they encounter a BW who refuses to make time or space for their madness. They've been spoiled by so many BW "feeding the trolls." But it's a new day. I trust that this discussion has opened many BW's eyes about the ill effects of feeding the IIT trolls.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.