It concerns me that so many Black people assume that consensus is always good, and that dissensus (difference of opinion) is always bad. Real life is much more nuanced than that. Mapping out collective real-life survival strategies is much more nuanced than that.
It doesn't occur to most of us that consensus is often a form of people collectively putting all of their eggs in one basket.
I bet consensus doesn't sound quite the same when it's put that way! This is something to keep in mind when mapping out mass strategies for fluid, rapidly changing circumstances. When there are a large number of unknowns, it might not be a good thing to try to herd people into a single, grand strategy. Even a good strategy usually has an expiration date, and is best used under certain circumstances.
Just think of the various obsolete strategies that African-Americans continue to have a consensus about:
1. Pursuing symbolic inclusion instead of seeking dominance over an essential economic niche.
2. Continuing to use protest techniques from the Civil Rights movement.
3. Trying to cajole our former slave masters, their children, and their Ellis Island cousins to solve our economic problems with forced inclusion into their businesses. This is done by using demonstrations and protests to shakedown White corporations for jobs.
Many Black women's empowerment blogs have acknowledged the end of the African-American community as a functional collective; and are mapping out adaptive responses to this situation. I submit to you that in many ways, African-American women find themselves in an unprecedented situation:
I'm not aware of any surviving human society that had the vast majority of its children out of wedlock.
I'm not aware of any surviving human society that expected its women to raise children alone.
I'm not aware of any surviving human society that expected its women to socialize its boys into manhood.
I suspect that the reason why I don't know of any such human society is because these social practices DON'T work; and lead to the destruction of any group that engages in them.
Most African-Americans currently have a consensus that we can engage in these behaviors and still somehow survive. I disagree.
If we are going to map out several survival strategies (and thereby have more than one viable "basket" for our eggs), we must leave room for people to follow their own vision of what it takes to survive and thrive. We must leave room for constructive disagreement.
*Suggested Reading* In the context of peak oil preparedness, John Michael Greer has written a couple of excellent essays about the potential life-saving value of dissensus. http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu89l08VJe38BHv9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzbzlzY3FoBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1NTMDFfMTE1/SIG=11sjonph5/EXP=1237787877/**http%3a//www.energybulletin.net/node/47508 and http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu92008VJVGQAseZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEza25tZTJ0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1NTMDFfMTE1/SIG=11suqkkg8/EXP=1237787956/**http%3a//www.energybulletin.net/node/47436
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Another excellent post! I have long shaken my head at the normalization of OOW births. We don't want people to feel ashamed, so let's pretend that's not one of the quickest routes to poverty, juvenile delinquency, and low educational attainment. I have noticed that the illegitimate birth rate is also rising for white women and according to the report issued by The CDC a few days ago, was 27.8%.
Of course that's still less than half of the 71.6% for black women, but I can't help but think that part of the rise for ww can be attributed to the growing numbers of ww/bm relationships. I pay attention when I see white mothers with biracial children out and about. Most often they are frumpy and downtrodden in their appearance, have naked ring fingers, and the father(s) of their children are nowhere to be seen. I guess a leopard doesn't change its pots, regardless of the color of the woman it's sleeping with.
My current boyfriend is white and, although I have no intention of letting this happen, I have asked him what he would do if I became pregnant. He told me that even though he'd rather not have children at all (as do I), his preference would be to get married and raise the child together. I know that might sound like just a nice thing to say, but he has always shown through his behavior that he is not one to shirk his commitments or responsibilities.
I wonder how many times such a conversation is had in the black community before all of these OOW births that no one is trying to prevent occur?
Greetings, Khadija!
I'm glad you highlighted the points that AA women face. The situation has gone beyond dire, yet the masses of AA folks like to think otherwise-fooling themselves that it's not so bad. Recent stats show AA women have OOW births by 72 percent! More so than any other woman in the United States. The AA community has turned into a self-destructing cult, not much different than Jonestown-they insist on drinking the poisoned Kool-Aid.
Hello there, Anonymous!
Yes, our mass normalization of OOW births is causing the demise of the AA collective. That one choice is the "feed line" that creates the other problems that you outlined (poverty, juvenile delinquency, and low educational attainment).
You're also correct about the impact of more WW hooking up with BM and the rise of OOW among WW. What I've seen while doing rotations in child protection courtrooms is that: Of the LARGE and GROWING numbers of "biracial" children that are in foster care, the VAST majority of them are the children of BM and non-Black women.
Over YEARS of practice in these courtrooms, I can only think of THREE cases of "biracial" children in foster care where the mother was Black and the father was non-Black.
This leads me to believe that it's not particularly precise to say that "Black children are the vast majority of the children in foster care."
This statement is true, but there's a more PRECISE way of describing the situation: The children of BM are the vast majority of the children in foster care, regardless of their mother's race!
The difference between the fate of "biracial" children and all-Black children is that infertile White couples quickly adopt small, less-Black appearing "biracial" foster children.
You said, "I wonder how many times such a conversation is had in the black community before all of these OOW births that no one is trying to prevent occur?"
I would imagine that such conversations are extremely rare because most AAs think that it's just fine and dandy to have OOW births.
_____________________
Hello there, Jazine!
You said, "I'm glad you highlighted the points that AA women face. The situation has gone beyond dire, yet the masses of AA folks like to think otherwise-fooling themselves that it's not so bad.
...The AA community has turned into a self-destructing cult, not much different than Jonestown-they insist on drinking the poisoned Kool-Aid."
Yes, and we have a consensus among ourselves that this is okay!
It's interesting. Last year, Evia commented about how, in all of her reading, she has not heard of a single human society that entrusted its women with socializing boys into manhood. I was shocked by this statement, and I racked my brain trying to think of such a society I had ever read of. Upon reflection, I can't think of a single human society (past or present) that has ever done what AAs are doing.
This is when I realized how completely out of touch with HUMAN norms the AA collective has become! Yet another example of how much I learn during these conversations.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
This is a wonderful, timely, articulate, honest, IMO easily understandable and to the point essay.
Thanks for sharing your common sense. There's nothing really I can add at this time.
But, I will say that it's necessary for women of color - wherever we reside on this planet - to act in our individual best interest.
To have a me and mine (future children//progeny) first mentality.
Thinking, caring about, and helping people/groups/populations who don't think, care about, or help you in return is a waste of limited time and resources.
And it doesn't make sense.
Reciprocity or nothing.
Judging and responding to ALL people based solely on their behavior towards you and yours regardless of their "race" and/or gender.
It's the only way.
Plus, it's natural, makes one's life easier, more manageable and more enjoyable.
Again, GREAT new blog entry.
Back in the mid-nineties an economist produced a paper (I haven't been able to find the link) whereas he said that if you graduate high school, don't have children until you're married and don't marry before age 21 you have a very low chance of being impoverished. If you don't graduate high school, have children OOW and get married before age 21 you're almost guaranteed to be impoverished. Frankly, I'm surprised that it took an economist to tell people that. Anyone who's ever worked child welfare would know this. Moreso, I'm amazed that no one has made a public service commercial with this information in it.
Of course, someone will always trumpet the 'exceptions.' "My mama had me when she was 14 and I turned out fine." First, let's quantify the word 'fine.' Further look around you, how many other people with 14 year old mamas do you see who turned out 'fine?'
Khadija, you wrote:
"Upon reflection, I can't think of a single human society (past or present) that has ever done what AAs are doing."
Exactly! I have also observed that when AA's feet are put to the fire regarding this issue, a knee-jerk reaction of blaming black mothers comes up. Both AA men and women make the excuse that black women won't allow AA men to be men! They claim they can't see their children because AA women block their path from access to their offspring. SMH. Have they not studied what their parental rights are as the biological fathers?
I knew of one DBR black male. We grew up together. He has two children OOW. A few years ago he believed his first born may not be his. The boy already regarded him as his father for the first nine years of his life. When the child was about to turn ten years old he started questioning the boy's paternity. He had the nerve to tell his son that he was possibly not his. He didn't even know the results of the paternity test and went ahead to tell his own son this! He admitted to me that a part of him was hoping the child wasn't his, then he could be relinquished of all parental responsibilities. Well, the test proved he was the father all along. Needless to say, the son never trusted his father again, and the relationship has been strained ever since.
Also, I have observed too many bm, like the one I described, feel they should get a Nobel Prize for being a part-time parent in the child's life. If they visit them, pay child support, they think the mothers should be eternally grateful. They bring up that a lot of "brothas" would not do this. The AA culture is retrogressive to the point it's frightening, and I do not regret finally leaving its walls.
Khadija, this is a very provocative and actually a GREAT perspective!
I agree that Dissensus has great potential survival value because, for starters, it can enable many MORE ideas to be brought to the table. Dissensus can mainly be practiced by people who have evolved to the point of realizing that survival and thriving (S&T) are the MOST or the ONLY really important goals. IMO, it's only doable if the people involved have accepted that anything that interferes with S&T is small and won't be tolerated and are prepared to enforce that.
Unfortunately, the vast bulk of the world and for the purposes of this discussion, most AAs and other blacks are not able to disagree without infighting. AAs in general are not able to disagree and just walk away, let alone tolerate dissensus even when our survival is on the line. Other groups can and do impose serious controls on those among them who interfere with their S&T.
For ex., I don't agree with the notion of "black love" anymore, so I urge bw of a similar mind to just walk away and find someone else to love. However, as we've seen, LOTS of other AAs won't let us just walk away. They disagree and continue to try to use all kinds of shenanigans to block us and keep bw mentally, emotionally, and physically CHAINED to the bc and bm--and these two entities have greatly failed us, our daughters, and other bw we love. It's clear to me that they would rather for bw to die than to leave. This dissensus has therefore caused infighting. The bc fails to see that if lots more AA women were encouraged and supported to mate out, then more than likely SOME of them would funnel badly needed resources back to the resource-starved bc where some black folks will always remain. (Rememer those Asian women in the article I posted in my Common Sense blog who marry out in order to 'live well' AND to get resources to send back home).
That's an example of a fresh idea that this dissensus ***could*** bring to the table, but instead we Bw-IR&E's and those bw of a similar mind unfortunately must fritter lots of our time and energy away engaging in defending ourselves and trying to get away and helping other bw who think similarly to get away.
And re:
It's interesting. Last year, Evia commented about how, in all of her reading, she has not heard of a single human society that entrusted its women with socializing boys into manhood. I was shocked by this statement, and I racked my brain trying to think of such a society I had ever read of. Upon reflection, I can't think of a single human society (past or present) that has ever done what AAs are doing.
Thank you, Khadija for giving me credit for saying things I've forgotten I even said. LOL! I forget saying them because it's all common sense. To me, it's like saying: "put your right shoe on your right foot."
One of my degrees is in comparative cultures as I've mentioned, so I look at everything that's happening in the AA community from the macro and micro view and compare it to my cross cultural readings and experiences. Most social scientists know this type of info but they don't share it in the mainstream narrative because it's not pc and mainly doesn't affect whites. And any time anyone says anything about AAs, a nuclear bomb explodes. Look at how the bc tried to hang Patrick Moyhihan out to dry.
Another one of these facts from the social science realm is that ANY community/society, culture, region, country, etc. where you have a large percentage of unmarried males is going to be in chaos. The actual percentage of them has been calculated, and in the AA community, the percentage far exceeds that percentage. So any social scientist worth her/his salt has ALREADY predicted what we're seeing today among AAs and they also know what's going to be the case in 10 years, 20, 40, 70 years, and etc. This is why various measures are ingrained in virtually all societies or cultures to channel their young to get married. Left up to males in MOST cultures, they would NEVER get married because ALL males are wired to be sex-hunters who prefer a number of sexual mates. But the cultures they come from, over time, have made it mandatory for the males to marry in order to preserve the group.
Now I know that some folks get hot at me for saying this, but AAs generally do NOT have a culture. This is why I continue to point out the need for a reasonably uplifting culture of some sort (rucoss). However, it's already WAY too late for most AAs to go in that direction. Maybe small groups could, but not the masses.
Anyway, this is why I'm always talking about MARRIAGE. It would solve many problems if QUALITY partners are chosen but the male partner must be at or above the woman's level for good or best results. This, again, is like saying "put your right shoe on your right foot" to most other groups of people.
Also, let me stress QUALITY again because some working class bw who attend my church in the nearby bc ARE now marrying bm who are previous ex-cons, homeless, ex-substance abusers, etc. Some of these males now go to church and are "saved," but they're still a liability to these wives because they are unable to meet the challenges of life in a lot of ways because they've never functioned as adults. On top of that, since they've now become the "man" or the 'head' of the house, they thump their Bible and demand that the women LISTEN to them!!! Often, there's violence when the woman doesn't listen and obey. It's just a fiasco! It's just TOO LATE!
Can you imagine a newly married man of this type in his forties or fifties who has never had a bank account. All of a sudden he's the "head" of the house and insists on handling the family's finances (or mainly HER finances) and the woman must not disagree or else all heck breaks loose.
So I know that some AA males think I preach 'marriage' because of its benefits to bw, but the reason I stress marriage is because it's the ONLY way AAs, will survive. That is, if we're talking about AAs continuing in our present configuration. And lots of folks can't stand the thought of bw mating with wm.
Given the number of unmarried females and males among AAs, there is NO way (without Divine intervention geared specifically to AAs) can possibly survive. This is why I know it's already a done deal for AAs because I do NOT believe that the bulk of AA males are going to propose marriage to the AA women they're sexing this year or in the next few years. And this is what it would take to stop the group's demise because time is passing MUCH faster in terms of world developments than it used to pass.
I know that's painful to some bw because they're so "black" and feel duty-bound to hold the community together, but they're holding on to an obsolete notion. Some people think I'm talking a sci fi scenario. I'm not. This is straight up social anthropology 201 This has been known for a long time.
Another fact is that in a patriarchal world, males in general are NOT going to listen to and obey women. This is why God-- and virtually all other chief deities in EVERY organized religio--is presented to us as a male. So, no matter how powerful AA women could ever become, neither AA males nor male children (beyond puberty) are going to listen to and obey women. In other words, in this patriarchal world, AA women cannot rule men or SUCCESSFULLY fight other groups of males--in the traditional sense.
Therefore, under the present social and biological order, AA women can only win or 'live well' when they rely heavily on their female cards, which are some VERY powerful cards. It's clear to me that AA girls and women need to be taught from square 1 how to play their female cards.
Becoming and feeling flawless as you've taught and the necessity for a woman to play her cards strategically (as I've stressed) would enable many bw to live lives that are much more fulfilling.
Hello there, Felicia!
Thank you for your kind words about the post. I truly appreciate it.
You said, "But, I will say that it's necessary for women of color - wherever we reside on this planet - to act in our individual best interest. To have a me and mine (future children//progeny) first mentality.
...Judging and responding to ALL people based solely on their behavior towards you and yours regardless of their "race" and/or gender....Plus, it's natural, makes one's life easier, more manageable and more enjoyable."
Again, it's shocking to realize that everybody else does this without apology or much thought. This is because what you've described is the HUMAN NORM. I know that part of our peculiar, dysfunctional behavior is due to slavery-based brainwashing. However, it's now the 21st century. How long are we going to continue with slavery-based insanity?
__________________
Hello there, Roslyn!
You said, "Frankly, I'm surprised that it took an economist to tell people that. Anyone who's ever worked child welfare would know this. Moreso, I'm amazed that no one has made a public service commercial with this information in it."
This is what always amazes me about how AAs operate. Why is it that we never take the extremely simple step of looking at what family arrangement has worked throughout human history?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that what works is the same, basic family arrangement: (1) children only within the bonds of marriage, and (2) heavy paternal involvement in socializing children, especially boys (mostly through enforcing social boundaries and discipline).
________________
Hello there, Jazine!
You said, "Exactly! I have also observed that when AA's feet are put to the fire regarding this issue, a knee-jerk reaction of blaming black mothers comes up. Both AA men and women make the excuse that black women won't allow AA men to be men! They claim they can't see their children because AA women block their path from access to their offspring. SMH. Have they not studied what their parental rights are as the biological fathers?"
The entire premise of that argument is a bunch of crap. Human societies are patriarchal in several key aspects. Women do NOT regulate or control men's actions. Again, there is NO human society where women have regulated, and set boundaries for, the behavior of men. MEN set and enforce social boundaries for other men.
For example, back "in the day" when BM were still mostly MEN, it was MEN who enforced "shotgun weddings," etc. MEN are the ones who elimate the predatory behavior of other males. A large part of the reason why Black residential areas are the violent and dangerous Rwanda-zones that they are is due to the absence of MEN acting as MEN.
Black residential areas are filled with hordes of fatherless males. This is extremely physically dangerous. It means that there are no MEN functioning as MEN to regulate the behavior of these teenage and older males.
In terms of housing projects filled with Blacks, it means that the packs of fatherless teenage Black males are the physically strongest creatures in that particular ecosystem. This is an underlying reason why the incidence of so-called "trains" being run on Black girls is rising. There are no fathers to seek revenge on behalf of these girls.
A real possibility of physical retaliation by other MEN is the only thing that keeps male predatory behavior in check. This is the human pattern. There will always be a certain percentage of males in any environment who will ALWAYS prey on women and girls who lack male protectors.
The Ar-ruh Kelly situation is a perfect example of this. As I've said before on other blogs, it's quite telling that NONE of R.Kelly's underage victims had Black fathers, uncles, etc. that functioned as MEN. A MAN would not allow some beast to prey upon his daughter, or any other girl that was part of his bloodline.
This is the underlying reason why he's been able to prey on so many BF children. Back in the day, when Black males were still MEN, R.Kelly's first, or at most second, victim would have been his last victim. One way or another. One of those girls' male relatives would have done something...memorable...to him.
It's not the Black general public, or BW, who had the primary duty to avenge those girls. That duty first falls upon their fathers and other male blood kin. This is how normal human cultures operate.
You said, "Also, I have observed too many bm, like the one I described, feel they should get a Nobel Prize for being a part-time parent in the child's life. If they visit them, pay child support, they think the mothers should be eternally grateful. They bring up that a lot of "brothas" would not do this."
Yes, I see a lot of this. Negroes feel that they're doing their own flesh and blood children a favor by so much as lifting a finger to support them.
You said, "The AA culture is retrogressive to the point it's frightening, and I do not regret finally leaving its walls."
I'm still thinking about the re-branding effort.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Evia!
Thank you for your kind words about the post. I truly appreciate it.
You said, "I agree that Dissensus has great potential survival value because, for starters, it can enable many MORE ideas to be brought to the table."
Exactly! Looking at different options increases the chances of finding one or even several that work!
You said, "Dissensus can mainly be practiced by people who have evolved to the point of realizing that survival and thriving (S&T) are the MOST or the ONLY really important goals. IMO, it's only doable if the people involved have accepted that anything that interferes with S&T is small and won't be tolerated and are prepared to enforce that."
I'm down with that. We can't allow anybody to start fights on the lifeboats and arks that we're building.
You said, "However, as we've seen, LOTS of other AAs won't let us just walk away. They disagree and continue to try to use all kinds of shenanigans to block us and keep bw mentally, emotionally, and physically CHAINED to the bc and bm--and these two entities have greatly failed us, our daughters, and other bw we love. It's clear to me that they would rather for bw to die than to leave."
This is why I'm transitioning to a tougher line with these obstructionists.
You said, "The bc fails to see that if lots more AA women were encouraged and supported to mate out, then more than likely SOME of them would funnel badly needed resources back to the resource-starved bc where some black folks will always remain. (Rememer those Asian women in the article I posted in my Common Sense blog who marry out in order to 'live well' AND to get resources to send back home)."
Yes, we're collectively cutting our own throats with our quest for Borg-like uniformity.
You said, "Thank you, Khadija for giving me credit for saying things I've forgotten I even said. LOL! I forget saying them because it's all common sense. To me, it's like saying: "put your right shoe on your right foot.""
I have no problems with giving credit where it is due, and you're forgetting the ideas that you've presented because neither of us are desperate for ego-strokes. LOL! [I'm always amazed to watch people run around trying to force "props" from others with cries of "It was me, me, me. I was the first one to say _________. I was the first one to write about __________ topic. Look at me, me, me!" {smh}]
You said, "Another one of these facts from the social science realm is that ANY community/society, culture, region, country, etc. where you have a large percentage of unmarried males is going to be in chaos. The actual percentage of them has been calculated, and in the AA community, the percentage far exceeds that percentage. So any social scientist worth her/his salt has ALREADY predicted what we're seeing today among AAs and they also know what's going to be the case in 10 years, 20, 40, 70 years, and etc."
This sounds fascinating. I'll have to read up on this.
You said, "This is why various measures are ingrained in virtually all societies or cultures to channel their young to get married. Left up to males in MOST cultures, they would NEVER get married because ALL males are wired to be sex-hunters who prefer a number of sexual mates. But the cultures they come from, over time, have made it mandatory for the males to marry in order to preserve the group."
Again, it doesn't take a rocket OR a social scientist to see which social arrangements have worked throughout human history.
You said, "Another fact is that in a patriarchal world, males in general are NOT going to listen to and obey women. This is why God-- and virtually all other chief deities in EVERY organized religio--is presented to us as a male. So, no matter how powerful AA women could ever become, neither AA males nor male children (beyond puberty) are going to listen to and obey women. In other words, in this patriarchal world, AA women cannot rule men or SUCCESSFULLY fight other groups of males--in the traditional sense."
This is another easily observed HUMAN pattern.
You said, "Therefore, under the present social and biological order, AA women can only win or 'live well' when they rely heavily on their female cards, which are some VERY powerful cards. It's clear to me that AA girls and women need to be taught from square 1 how to play their female cards."
Exactly! As much as some of us hate to admit it: In a patriarchal world, the surest path to a woman (and her future children) living well is by that woman marrying well. This is why marrying well is the MAIN female strategy throughout human history!
You said, "Becoming and feeling flawless as you've taught and the necessity for a woman to play her cards strategically (as I've stressed) would enable many bw to live lives that are much more fulfilling."
This is the bottom line to reality for women. BW can continue to ignore this reality at their own peril (and at their children's peril).
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
The bc fails to see that if lots more AA women were encouraged and supported to mate out, then more than likely SOME of them would funnel badly needed resources back to the resource-starved bc where some black folks will always remain. (Rememer those Asian women in the article I posted in my Common Sense blog who marry out in order to 'live well' AND to get resources to send back home).
I've noticed that when BW marry well-off WM, the couples often use their money to create foundations that funnel a lot of money to black causes and members of the "black community." While they aren't directly advertised that way, these WM married to BW have used a lot of THEIR money to help disadvantaged black people.
So when many BW marry out, they are bringing more resources "in." I don't see BM bringing resources "in," when they marry out.
Of course, this is another point folks conveniently don't like to discuss. Women's choices to marry well have usually resulted in the uplift of entire families and communities, throughout histry.
Khadija and Anon at 6:33am:
You said, "I wonder how many times such a conversation is had in the black community before all of these OOW births that no one is trying to prevent occur?"
I would imagine that such conversations are extremely rare because most AAs think that it's just fine and dandy to have OOW births.
My reply:
There is a book I once saw, Promises I Can Keep, which was about this very phenomenon, of out of wedlock pregnancies.
It was like reading about an upside-down world.
Young girls coming up, in families in which mom and sometimes grandma, were divorced or single mothers, and no father in the picture whatsover.
For them, the mothers are the primary parent. Fathers are optional.
Marriage is not the primary issue, being a parent is; it is what validates and settles them down.
So they have children in casual relationships with men and then think about whether the relationship can work and he can be a good father.
Tied into all of that is they were living in impoverished enclaves, where the men were guaranteed to be economically unstable and thus unwilling/uninterested in being able to commit and raise a family. Moreover, the young men themselves grew up with no father in the house, so the norm is to have children, see the children as the mother's, and just pass on through.
Kay Hymowitz' Dads in the Hood spoke about this.
The young women go in with no hope of any sort of long-term stability, and the strategy they pursue guarantees it.
For some, they might marry years later, if at all, but what mattered most is that they had their children in their younger years.
I enjoy your essays (and my internet friend Evia's...) so much. Sometimes I feel like I am peeking in at a meeting to decide recipients of a McArthur fellowship. Such is the level of originality and the wisdom I see displayed in following these conversations.
I hardly feel worthy of jumping in to be honest. I will say that these essays force me (willingly) to go to another level. To engage my mind in ways that I have been loathe to do ( for fear of depressing myself in thinking of the true plight of Black Women in general. I say BW because unless you are a BM I ACTUALLY know and care about, then MY emphasis is on the well being of my "sisters"...but that is my thought...dissent from MY opinion is ok with me)
To continue, (with my rather slender analysis) please know that many of us are reading and taking in every word...the case for and against. When I stop (or don't listen) is when I detect (and it DOES come through) a crazy mind in the mix as it were (the IIT's)..There is much wisdom in the old adage "two heads are better than one." No two minds are going to share the same thoughts ever...but many times they both have value when you put them together....so really, that is what we are doing here..putting our heads together, and gleaning the best information for US to use to better ourselves..dissent is therefore necessary to find that common solid ground.
and I for one thank you...this is information that many BW need to read and COMPREHEND how it applies to them. I heard Michelle Obama say to a group of HS students recently that whatever mistakes they may have made in their life, it was not too late to fix them and go on...I suggest the same is true for most of us....and part of that involves taking the information from THIS (and Evia's) BW think tank, and applying it to our own lives as necessary.
Khadija,
I am the previous Anon for both comments.
I would imagine that such conversations are extremely rare because most AAs think that it's just fine and dandy to have OOW births.
I am not as concerned with whether OOW births are morally wrong. I am concerned with the pragmatic implications of OOW. I would hope that these young women would have such conversations with their partners out of awareness that is is not economically or socially feasible to have a child with a man who is not willing to be there for you or your children. A man who is not willing to take responsibility for his own flesh blood is not capable of caring about anyone so why even be involved with such a person? As PioneerValleyWoman pointed out, it's not even relevant to them. I get that now and I'm horribly depressed at the realization.
I think what would be most effective would be if some of these mothers who are raising out of wedlock children would swallow their pride and have an honest conversation with their kids. "I love you more than anything but I want you to have a better life for yourself. Find someone who loves you enough to stand by you and marry you. And THEN have children." Too many of these women further pathologize their offspring by insisting that one parent is as good (or better) than one and that it's just fine for their kids to repeat the same mistake.
Roslyn,
Syndicated columnist Cal Thomas quoted William Galston, an advisor to former President Bill Clinton, when he said, "...you need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty: finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20. For those who follow this advice, only 8 percent are in poverty, while 79 percent of those who do not are living below the poverty scale" (Jewish World Review; article "Married With Government," Feb, 21, 2002, Cal Thomas syndicated column).
"I wonder how many times such a conversation is had in the black community before all of these OOW births that no one is trying to prevent occur?"
I can tell you how such a convo would go. They(i.e both he and his family) would accuse you of trying to 'trap' him.
_________________________
"You're also correct about the impact of more WW hooking up with BM and the rise of OOW among WW. What I've seen while doing rotations in child protection courtrooms is that: Of the LARGE and GROWING numbers of "biracial" children that are in foster care, the VAST majority of them are the children of BM and non-Black women.
Over YEARS of practice in these courtrooms, I can only think of THREE cases of "biracial" children in foster care where the mother was Black and the father was non-Black."
Studies have been done, and it was discovered that of all mixed-race children, the ones most likely to end up in foster care were those with a black father and a white mother, followed by those with a black father and other non-black and non-white mother. Similarly, those least likely to end up in care are the children of white men and asian women, followed by the children of white men and black women. Granted, a bm is still more likely to 'stick around' with his pregnant significant other(now I'm talking about the unmarried bm) if she is of another race, and I've heard bm give all sorts of incredibly ridiculous 'reasons' for this. But by and large, alot of these non-black women are starting to get the same treatment of being left to hold the baby on their own.
___________________________
"It's interesting. Last year, Evia commented about how, in all of her reading, she has not heard of a single human society that entrusted its women with socializing boys into manhood. I was shocked by this statement, and I racked my brain trying to think of such a society I had ever read of. Upon reflection, I can't think of a single human society (past or present) that has ever done what AAs are doing.
This is when I realized how completely out of touch with HUMAN norms the AA collective has become! Yet another example of how much I learn during these conversations."
Khadija, this is an even more dire situation than one might at first imagine. I've tried to imagine all possible outcomes, and the most likely one is extinction. Why the black (mis)leaders are REFUSING to address this issue is anyone's guess. If things continue the way they are, it will only get worse, and no, it won't get better, unless drastic fundmental changes are made!
______________________
"Of course, someone will always trumpet the 'exceptions.' "My mama had me when she was 14 and I turned out fine."
It irks the hell out of me when people start talking about the exceptions. I'm like, their exceptions for a reason, duh!
"First, let's quantify the word 'fine.' Further look around you, how many other people with 14 year old mamas do you see who turned out 'fine?'"
Too funny!
__________________
"Also, I have observed too many bm, like the one I described, feel they should get a Nobel Prize for being a part-time parent in the child's life. If they visit them, pay child support, they think the mothers should be eternally grateful. They bring up that a lot of "brothas" would not do this. The AA culture is retrogressive to the point it's frightening, and I do not regret finally leaving its walls."
Even the married ones do this as well. Taking (proper) care of one's children, putting a roof over their head, food on the table, being married to their mother, having a decent(legal) job, not having a criminal record, etc, is a normal thing. Yet there are alot of them who think they deserve a medal for it. Completely ridiculous.
__________________________
"Unfortunately, the vast bulk of the world and for the purposes of this discussion, most AAs and other blacks are not able to disagree without infighting. AAs in general are not able to disagree and just walk away, let alone tolerate dissensus even when our survival is on the line. Other groups can and do impose serious controls on those among them who interfere with their S&T."
Too true. Look at the idiots in Kenya who descended into a state of pseudo-war last year because they didn't like the results of the national elections. It happens much less now, but it doesn't surprise me when folks do that sort of nonsense. And it is not a new thing with black folks. The day MLK Jr. was assassinated, there were blacks who went on the streets(especially in the Chicago area) and started rioting and burning.......in black residential areas. I cannot for the life of me fathom why when something such as the case were that silly asian woman was let go with an offesnively paltry sentence by the white female judge for murdering that 15 year old black girl some year ago. What was our reaction? There was riot in the streets. These fools started burning down black-owned businesses! I think....who loses?
________________________
"Another one of these facts from the social science realm is that ANY community/society, culture, region, country, etc. where you have a large percentage of unmarried males is going to be in chaos. The actual percentage of them has been calculated, and in the AA community, the percentage far exceeds that percentage. So any social scientist worth her/his salt has ALREADY predicted what we're seeing today among AAs and they also know what's going to be the case in 10 years, 20, 40, 70 years, and etc. This is why various measures are ingrained in virtually all societies or cultures to channel their young to get married. Left up to males in MOST cultures, they would NEVER get married because ALL males are wired to be sex-hunters who prefer a number of sexual mates. But the cultures they come from, over time, have made it mandatory for the males to marry in order to preserve the group."
Let's not even kid ourselves that the issue is only with the unmarried ones. I've seen enough 'upstanding' negroes with the wife and 2.5 kids who as far as I'm concerned, need to be hanged. Can you believe that there is a public official somewhere(can't remember the state) who is running for election. The black-on-black crime is so high that part of his platform is to bring back the noose. And this dude is black. Have things actually gotten this bad?
____________________
"Now I know that some folks get hot at me for saying this, but AAs generally do NOT have a culture. This is why I continue to point out the need for a reasonably uplifting culture of some sort (rucoss). However, it's already WAY too late for most AAs to go in that direction. Maybe small groups could, but not the masses."
I agree with the premise of the statment, but I don't believe that AA culture is non-existent or fundamentally flawed. I just think that over time, those who had the most power within the group(bm) willfully promoted some practices that were beneficial to them while negatively affecting bw, while on the other hand, ignoring the practices that they felt they didn't benefit from as much. Afterall, it was normal AA culture to be family-centred. That's how it as decades ago. These are all positive aspects of AA culture that some now intentionally choose to ignore, while promoting habits that go against reall AA culture, and try to convince everyone else that it is authentic(and they are having success at achieving that). Afterall, if those who lived in the 30's, 40's etc could see what is now considered as 'acting black' they would cringe. This should tell us that this degenerate acting black schtick is NOT true AA culture!
_____________________
"Anyway, this is why I'm always talking about MARRIAGE. It would solve many problems if QUALITY partners are chosen but the male partner must be at or above the woman's level for good or best results. This, again, is like saying "put your right shoe on your right foot" to most other groups of people."
Agree. But I think some readers might confuse it with marrying someone who is richer. There's a difference. Potential should also be taken into account. Now when I say potential, I'm talking about the young man still in college(and doing well). At age 30, NO ONE should be talking about potential, but actual results. Similarly, ladies, if a man refers to his mode of income as his 'hustle', STAY AWAY. He is not respectable, and is probably broke!
___________________
"I've noticed that when BW marry well-off WM, the couples often use their money to create foundations that funnel a lot of money to black causes and members of the "black community." While they aren't directly advertised that way, these WM married to BW have used a lot of THEIR money to help disadvantaged black people.
So when many BW marry out, they are bringing more resources "in." I don't see BM bringing resources "in," when they marry out."
A perfect example of this is David Bowie. When that issue happened with those Jena 6 idiots(yes, thet is EXACTLY what they were), he donated money to help them. (His wife is that Sudanese supermodel, Iman). It's worth noting that alot of black male celebrities were happy to come out and add their voice to the campaign and perform on stage, but when it came time to donate money..............!
Hello there, PioneerValleyWoman!
{shaking my head}
The upside down/inside out norms you're describing are the reason why AAs are a functionally DEAD people. Next stop, Rwanda.
_____________________
Hello there, Delishmish!
Thank you for your kind words about the blog discussions. I truly appreciate it.
You said, "I hardly feel worthy of jumping in to be honest. I will say that these essays force me (willingly) to go to another level."
I know that many readers feel intimidated, and therefore don't participate. Here's why they should: Healthy, productive people always have something of value that they can contribute. Even if they feel that it's something small. It all counts. It all matters. That one "small" thought might be the key to solving a whole situation! You never know.
Thank you for giving me an idea for a blog post. This isn't often highlighted, but many times it's people who are self-taught in a field that make the critical advances. I'm thinking of people like General Vo Nguyen Giap, who was the self-taught Commander of the North Vietnamese military.
General Giap is an educated man, but he was NOT a professional soldier when selected to lead the Vietnamese Communist forces. He had studied military history on his own through reading. Nevertheless, he's the one that designed the military strategies that defeated the French (Dien Bien Phu) AND the Americans in Vietnam! General Giap outperformed a series of French and American military professionals. For DECADES.
Let's look at this the reverse way: How much common sense is emanating from the public statements of our Black intellectuals? Very, very, little. If any. In fact, our most educated social scientists, etc. are the ones largely responsible for creating the political propaganda that helped normalize OOW births, etc.
I'm saying all of this to say that there's no reason for you to feel shy about jumping into these conversations. So many of our "official" Black social scientists and educators have given us catastrophic advice for years. That hasn't made them the slightest bit hesitant to CONTINUE expressing their opinions! So, why should you or anybody else feel shy about putting in your 2 cents?
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Ayona!
You said, "I am not as concerned with whether OOW births are morally wrong. I am concerned with the pragmatic implications of OOW.
...A man who is not willing to take responsibility for his own flesh blood is not capable of caring about anyone so why even be involved with such a person? As PioneerValleyWoman pointed out, it's not even relevant to them. I get that now and I'm horribly depressed at the realization."
I'm only talking about the practical results of OOW, also. I did a rotation in my areas' child support courtrooms. What BW need to understand is that the overall pattern is that: Negroes. Don't. Care. At. All. About. Their. Own. Children.
Here's the breakdown of the mass behavior patterns that I observed:
1-Negroes were the primary ones demanding paternity tests. Even when they had no real reason to suspect that the child was not theirs. When I asked my BM clients what motivated them to ask for these tests, they told me point blank that they hoped the child wasn't theirs, so they wouldn't have to be bothered.
I ended up having to defend BM clients (from criminal contempt of court charges) who had sent other BM to take the paternity test for them. They were hoping to evade responsibility for the child.
2-Unmarried Latino men were generally pleased to publicly claim and acknowledge their OOW children. They rarely asked for paternity tests (even when I suggested them). There had to be something seriously wrong with the woman for most Latino guys to ask for a paternity test. Furthermore, most of the Latino clients I had were already HAPPILY supporting their children without the necessity of court orders to do so.
However, women who had babies by married Latino men generally got the "Negro baby daddy" treatment from these men.
Keep in mind that public aid requires female recipients to name their children's father, even if he is already financially supporting her and the children. Public aid then has the local prosecutor's office file a child support petition so the government can recoup some of the public aid money from the father.
Years ago, when I was working in these courtrooms, the welfare recipient mother was only entitled to keep the first $50 of whatever child support was being taken out of the father's paycheck.
3-White men had a 50-50 chance of behaving either way.
__________________
Hello there, JaliliMaster!
You said, "Khadija, this is an even more dire situation than one might at first imagine. I've tried to imagine all possible outcomes, and the most likely one is extinction. Why the black (mis)leaders are REFUSING to address this issue is anyone's guess. If things continue the way they are, it will only get worse, and no, it won't get better, unless drastic fundmental changes are made!"
I suspect that the primary reason why our (mis)leaders aren't addressing any of this is because they are involved in the same behavior! They don't want their "Booty Call" parades to end. Just look at Rev. Jesse "Baby Daddy" Jackson.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"I suspect that the primary reason why our (mis)leaders aren't addressing any of this is because they are involved in the same behavior! They don't want their "Booty Call" parades to end. Just look at Rev. Jesse "Baby Daddy" Jackson."
That's one thing that I can't stand about Jackson Snr. He still prances about as if he is some bonafide moral authority. I once pointed it out, and I got an earfull from several older blacks that I'm being ungrateful for what he has done. I told them that I wasn't criticising his work for civil rights, I was questioning why I or anyone should still see him as a leader on moral issues or even issues as relates to the church. Their reply? No one is perfect. Yes, they were right, no one is. But I reserve the right to expect a certain type/level of behaviour from those who want a certain level of respect. There is a BIG difference between an actor-activist being a baby-daddy and having an extramarital affair, and someone who bears the title 'Reverend'. Had it been Sharpton, I wouldn't even care, as dude isn't actually really a Reverend. But apparently, it's wrong for me to hold Rev. Jackson to a certain standard.
That's why nowadays, whenever I read soem of the work of past civil rights workers, I take it with a pinch of salt and sieve out alot of stuff. Alot of these negroes were self-hating hypocrites, but alot of us wouldn't know.
Another one of these facts from the social science realm is that ANY community/society, culture, region, country, etc. where you have a large percentage of unmarried males is going to be in chaos. The actual percentage of them has been calculated, and in the AA community, the percentage far exceeds that percentage. So any social scientist worth her/his salt has ALREADY predicted what we're seeing today among AAs and they also know what's going to be the case in 10 years, 20, 40, 70 years, and etc. This is why various measures are ingrained in virtually all societies or cultures to channel their young to get married. Left up to males in MOST cultures, they would NEVER get married because ALL males are wired to be sex-hunters who prefer a number of sexual mates. But the cultures they come from, over time, have made it mandatory for the males to marry in order to preserve the group."
Frankly Evia, I didn't need a study to tell me this. I major in zoology and it's the same system in the animal kingdom; but mst easily observed in the lion prides.
The top male lion will kill all of the male cubs to not only eliminate the competion, but also prevent discord. The male cubs that escape this fate will band together with other bachelor males into a rogue group that terrorizes any lone female and ususally tries to overthrow the dominant lion in a pride.
If the rogue male groups succeed in overthrowing the dominant, then the strongest rogue will then drive off the very same males that banded with him the prevent the same situation.
I just found a book that discusses what Evia was talking about. It's called "Violent Land: Single Men and Social Disorder from the Frontier to the Inner City" by David T. Courtwright
Blurbs from the reviewers:
"Professor David T. Courtwright has produced a fascinating, important, and impressive study of violence in the American past. His approach is innovative and his methods creative.
The book examines the recurring problem of violence in American history and argues, compellingly, that violence has most often been associated with young unmarried males who find themselves thrust into pockets of society in which males significantly outnumber females. Unrestrained by marriage or family life, these males succumb to the violent propensities inherent in both their age and their gender..."
--Glenn Feldman, Southern Humanities Review
Frankly Evia, I didn't need a study to tell me this. I major in zoology and it's the same system in the animal kingdom; but mst easily observed in the lion prides.
Yep, many things we need to know about the human animal's "normal" behavior can be learned from lower animals. And if anyone is interested, you could research the dynamics among lower animals where the females stick by males who don't perform their role--if this even exists. If that ever happened, I'm sure those animals didn't survive for long or must occupy a lower niche.
The top male lion will kill all of the male cubs to not only eliminate the competion, but also prevent discord.
I love reading about and observing lower animal dynamics. Also, many other lower animal males, aside from lions, also do this to safely spread their genes among multiple females and insure that their offspring have the best chance at surviving. We see this among humans during wars where the conquering males kill, imprison, or enslave the loser males which prevents the latter from competing, producing children, or protecting any children they've already produced.
The male cubs that escape this fate will band together with other bachelor males into a rogue group that terrorizes any lone female and ususally tries to overthrow the dominant lion in a pride.
Lone females or those without male protection are always at risk of being violated by predator males of virtually every species.
If the rogue male groups succeed in overthrowing the dominant, then the strongest rogue will then drive off the very same males that banded with him the prevent the same situation.
Survival of the fittest. And we can see that among many lower animals, they "don't have permanent friends or permanent enemies; they have permanent INTERESTS" and all of their interests center on SURVIVAL and thriving. In their own way, lower animals thrive and enhance their chances at continued survival by trying to INSURE that their progeny will survive and thrive. It is very abnormal and a fatal mistake for any animal not to behave in this way.
On a slightly different note, I had a chat with one of my younger bm cousins (early twenties)this afternoon. He works for a financial services company where there are several AA women in his department, most of whom are in their mid-30s and older.
He said that they were discussing the Rihanna-Chris Brown situation last week and these women were split in terms of who they supported. He said some of them were saying that Rihanna should get a man who knows how to treat her and the others were saying that she should stick by CB for now. Someone brought up that Rihanna had dated wm and a couple of them said she should have continued doing that because: (drum roll) there's a shortage of bm out there.
Apparently SOME bw STILL think that the ONLY reason to date and mate with non-bm is because of the "shortage" of bm. SMH We know that many bw don't agree that this is the only reason to date nonbm because there are quite a lot of bw who prefer nonbm, but those women who don't agree are usually silent when these sweeping statements are made because they don't want to be called names.
Anyway, one of them asked him whether he knew about the large numbers of bm in jail and he told her yes but he didn't say anything more. He's careful. He knows how to keep his mouth shut! LOL!
Anyway, since he knows about my blog, he said he was waiting for the women to talk about dating non-bm men, but none of them said anything that even hinted at that as one solution to this "shortage" for bw in general. He couldn't understand why they didn't. He said it was really odd because it seems as if an invisible force imprisoned their minds at that point and kept them from coming to the obvious conclusion of dating nonbm.
I tried to explain some of the feelings that AA women have about IR dating and mating. He said he has never ever heard any bm talk about anything that would stop them from dating non-bw. He said AA women are really weird. LOL!
khadija said:
''It's interesting. Last year, Evia commented about how, in all of her reading, she has not heard of a single human society that entrusted its women with socializing boys into manhood.''
I said:
Yeah I remember when evia made this comment. It was so profoundly reavealing. That's part of what makes me enjoy coming to these sites. learning new things and most of all, having my own thought process challenged. Continuing at the rate it is now, it could possibly mean extinction. Other societies have had outside forces lead to their demise, it seems that for the black community, AA in particular, it might come from within. Thinking of it is actually quite scary.
--------------------------------
Felicia said:
''But, I will say that it's necessary for women of color - wherever we reside on this planet - to act in our individual best interest.
To have a me and mine (future children//progeny) first mentality.
Thinking, caring about, and helping people/groups/populations who don't think, care about, or help you in return is a waste of limited time and resources.''
I said:
Amen to that. This message needs to be drilled into the ear of as many AA women as possible.
---------------------------------
Roslyn said:
''Of course, someone will always trumpet the 'exceptions.' "My mama had me when she was 14 and I turned out fine." First, let's quantify the word 'fine.' Further look around you, how many other people with 14 year old mamas do you see who turned out 'fine?' ''
I said:
I regard such people as cankerworms. Most of them know the truth but choose to accept the exceptions as the norm just because they don't want to accept fact as fact. Also, they would claim to have 'turned out fine', but considering the mediocrity that is rife in the black community, standards for what would be considered 'fine' would most probably be low.
---------------------------------
Jazine said:
''Also, I have observed too many bm, like the one I described, feel they should get a Nobel Prize for being a part-time parent in the child's life. If they visit them, pay child support, they think the mothers should be eternally grateful. They bring up that a lot of "brothas" would not do this.''
I said:
This goes back to the point of accepting mediocrity as excellence. When damaged degenerate behaviour is accepted as the norm, anything above it would get applauded.
-------------------------------
Evia said:
''Unfortunately, the vast bulk of the world and for the purposes of this discussion, most AAs and other blacks are not able to disagree without infighting. AAs in general are not able to disagree and just walk away, let alone tolerate dissensus even when our survival is on the line.''
I said:
So very true evia but it is not just among AA's. This happens a lot among blacks globally. In a lot of African countries that I have observed, the most ridiculous things can lead to war. I thank God that none of them have nuclear weapons!
Evia said:
''However, as we've seen, LOTS of other AAs won't let us just walk away. They disagree and continue to try to use all kinds of shenanigans to block us and keep bw mentally, emotionally, and physically CHAINED to the bc and bm--and these two entities have greatly failed us, our daughters, and other bw we love. It's clear to me that they would rather for bw to die than to leave.''
I said:
As black women are the main financiers of anything involving black people, they want to keep black women on lock. Even if AA women married out en masse and brought resources back to the bc, it would not be enough. You know why? Bcos it is not just about ACCESS to black women and their finances but also about CONTROL. If these bw remain in these black constructs, bm and the so called bc have both access and control. On the other hand, if these women leave, they most probably only have access...and this would just be as long and as much as the bw and their partners are willing to give. It would also be harder to trick/emotionally blackmail these bw into giving what they cannot afford (re: T.D. jakes)
They would also not want these bw to expand their dating and marriage options because that would mean a fewer number available for them in their harem!
----------------------------------
PVW said:
''For them, the mothers are the primary parent. Fathers are optional. ''
I said:
So ridiculous. What kind of tragic way of thinking is this???
--------------------------------
Delishmish said:
''I hardly feel worthy of jumping in to be honest. I will say that these essays force me (willingly) to go to another level.''
I said:
I know exactly how you feel. When I just began coming to this blog and some others, I felt a bit weird giving my 2 cents because I felt that I was not in a position to, due mainly to my age. I had to get out of that way of thinking because I realised we could all learn a bit from each other.
Also, I love how they make me to challenge my own thought process and views.
--------------------------------
Ayona said:
''I think what would be most effective would be if some of these mothers who are raising out of wedlock children would swallow their pride and have an honest conversation with their kids. "I love you more than anything but I want you to have a better life for yourself. Find someone who loves you enough to stand by you and marry you. And THEN have children." ''
I said:
Good luck trying to convince them to do this. Make sure you wear protective gear. A full body armour suit might do it.
-----------------------------------
Jalilimaster said:
''Studies have been done, and it was discovered that of all mixed-race children, the ones most likely to end up in foster care were those with a black father and a white mother, followed by those with a black father and other non-black and non-white mother. Similarly, those least likely to end up in care are the children of white men and asian women, followed by the children of white men and black women. Granted, a bm is still more likely to 'stick around' with his pregnant significant other(now I'm talking about the unmarried bm) if she is of another race, and I've heard bm give all sorts of incredibly ridiculous 'reasons' for this. But by and large, alot of these non-black women are starting to get the same treatment of being left to hold the baby on their own.''
I said:
Yeah I remember reading a similar study not too long ago. To be honest, I wasn't really surprised.
Jalili said:
''Even the married ones do this as well. Taking (proper) care of one's children, putting a roof over their head, food on the table, being married to their mother, having a decent(legal) job, not having a criminal record, etc, is a normal thing. Yet there are alot of them who think they deserve a medal for it. Completely ridiculous.''
I said:
Mediocrity being accepted as excelllence!
Jalili said:
''Can you believe that there is a public official somewhere(can't remember the state) who is running for election. The black-on-black crime is so high that part of his platform is to bring back the noose. And this dude is black. Have things actually gotten this bad?''
I said:
Yes they have gotten that bad!
Jalili said:
''This should tell us that this degenerate acting black schtick is NOT true AA culture!''
I said:
But what would you use to determine culture? Norms of today or those of yesteryears?
---------------------------------
Khadija said:
''I suspect that the primary reason why our (mis)leaders aren't addressing any of this is because they are involved in the same behavior! They don't want their "Booty Call" parades to end. Just look at Rev. Jesse "Baby Daddy" Jackson.''
I said:
Spot on. It seems that if you criticise them or even point out the hypocrisy of it, it is akin to blasphemy. Well I REFUSE to be silenced!!!!
-------------------------------
Jalili said:
''Had it been Sharpton, I wouldn't even care, as dude isn't actually really a Reverend.''
I said:
This is so strue. Sharpton is NOT a reverend. I don't know why people haven't called him out on it yet! He is a JOKE!!
-------------------------------
''The book examines the recurring problem of violence in American history and argues, compellingly, that violence has most often been associated with young unmarried males who find themselves thrust into pockets of society in which males significantly outnumber females. Unrestrained by marriage or family life, these males succumb to the violent propensities inherent in both their age and their gender..." ''
I said:
It feels like the bc is being described.
@ Kiara,
Read the lions stuff but i'm trying to figure out how to make an analogy with humans using the lion dynamics. Help?
Anyone can reply. thanks
Sorry just saw evia's post (concerning lion dynamics)
Hello there, Foxycleopatra!
Another parallel of the lion pride dynamics (killing the cubs that aren't his offspring) is the phenomenon of BW's live-in BM boyfriends killing the prior children that these BW had by other men. We see this over and over again. Most of these cases involve BW and the BM that they are not married to.
Most of these cases with fatalities I've seen at work involve BW who were shacking with their boyfriends.
This is why it is DEADLY for a woman to place a man other than their father over her children. The only thing that seems to mitigate the risks involved is when the man marries the woman and "officially" assumes responsibility for the woman's prior children.
Folks HATE it when anybody points out these animal kingdom parallels, but they do exist.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Foxycleopatra!
You said, "As black women are the main financiers of anything involving black people, they want to keep black women on lock. Even if AA women married out en masse and brought resources back to the bc, it would not be enough. You know why? Bcos it is not just about ACCESS to black women and their finances but also about CONTROL. If these bw remain in these black constructs, bm and the so called bc have both access and control. On the other hand, if these women leave, they most probably only have access...and this would just be as long and as much as the bw and their partners are willing to give. It would also be harder to trick/emotionally blackmail these bw into giving what they cannot afford (re: T.D. jakes)"
Break it down! {raised fist salute}
It seems that everybody EXCEPT Black women seem to understand that mere access to a resource is not enough. CONTROL over a resource is the key.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadijah
You are so right on point about live in boyfriends killing their girlfriend's babies. This happened in Atlanta last week. A bm beat to death a 15 month old girl and left. The mother (who is 7 weeks pregnant) returned from work to find her baby dead. She called the police immediately. The police and mother set up a sting to lure the bf. He was still in atlanta! They caught him downtown. Do you know what he said? The TV fell on the baby. The TV! The mom asked why didn't you call the ambulance? He was scared and didn't want to go back to jail. Another bw dating and mating with an ex-con. He also said don't tell on me. Yes he did not want her to call the police on him. The police had the mother wiretapped and got all the info they needed for arrest. But get this he asked her if she was going to keep the baby?? Don't kill my child. Isn't that sick. The mother is thinking about an abortion now she wants nothing to do with him or the unborn child. She doesn't want to have a predator's baby. I see this alot in Atlanta these young bw 20-35 having babies from felon bm. It is so sick. They are having kids like it is nothing.
What I ment to add to my earliar post was that it is so sad that the AA community has degenerated to the level of beasts.
Hello there, Sistrunkqueen!
The live-in boyfriends murdering prior children is a frequent price tag for the shack up/baby mama lifestyle. A price tage that AAs refuse to address. And it's not just ex-cons who kill their live-in girlfriend's prior children (although I would imagine that ex-cons have a higher rate of doing this).
AAs generally only discuss these cases in isolation, never as part of a consistent pattern.
It's important to note that the beast in the story you mentioned was all about the woman continuing HIS pregnancy to term. "Keep MY baby. Even though I killed YOUR baby." Right. Sure. Hmmph.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Correction of my previous comment: It is not economically or socially viable to have a child with a man who is not willing to be there for you or your children.
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Khadija, Evia, and everyone else who mentioned this,
Thank you for pointing out that MEN regulate men's behavior. They try really hard to make it seem otherwise. I've long known the bc was self-destructing but now I see it is actually de-evolving. What else can be said to be happening when men who have proven themselves unfit are rewarded by still being allowed to procreate? I feel like the scales have fallen from my eyes. It's OVER for the bc.
And thanks for the info re: rates of children in foster care by race of father. I will remember this the next time some negroes are spreading myths about how black women are not worth marrying and/or don't let them see their children. If non-black women are better, why don't black men treat them any better?
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Foxycleopatra,
Good luck trying to convince them to do this. Make sure you wear protective gear. A full body armour suit might do it.
A full body armour suit with a flame retardant suit over it! I know this would not go over well but I hope that some mothers do it, as mine did, although in not so gentle a manner. My mother had my sister at 18, before she met and married my dad. She made it abundantly clear that it was NOT ok for me to get pregnant while living under her roof and that she would NOT be raising MY children.
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This was a good, and short!, video on a new children's program in Harlem. I think a lot of the points brought up relate to this conversation. Especially about how the far fewer words children raised in poverty are exposed to are overwhelmingly negative and discouraging.
@Ayona:
You said, "I've long known the bc was self-destructing but now I see it is actually de-evolving. What else can be said to be happening when men who have proven themselves unfit are rewarded by still being allowed to procreate? I feel like the scales have fallen from my eyes. It's OVER for the bc."
This is why we're sounding the alarm for BW to FLEE Black residential areas!
P.S. Could you send me an email explaining how you're able to do the hyperlinks (I think that's what it's called) within your comments? I would really appreciate it. As everyone can see, my computer skills are sub-par. LOL!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
The book examines the recurring problem of violence in American history and argues, compellingly, that violence has most often been associated with young unmarried males ...
Thanks for finding this, Khadija. And notice how even in this study, the assumption is that IF there are single women available, "normal" men WOULD marry or commit to them on a deeper level. In this study, the shortage of females (the opposite is the case among AAs) is viewed as a causative factor for high levels of male violence. And it is known (intuitively or due to experience) and factored in by many cultures and groups for hundreds, if not thousands of years, that a high percentage of unmarried (disconnected) males = high levels of violence or disorder in any group because these physically stronger and sexually opportunistic (by nature)males are not CONNECTED to women, children, or family. They therefore operate like lone wolves or scavengers.
Disconnected people in general tend to be more prone to cause disorder than those who are connected to others due to the lack of others imposing restraints on them and this is also true among many lower animal species.
AAs generally only discuss these cases in isolation, never as part of a consistent pattern.
IMO, AAs are terrified re seeing ***patterns*** of DBR behavior because they would then have to admit that large numbers of the acting black crew and their sympathizers and related others are damaged Way beyond repair (Horror of all horrors to magical thinking AAs.) For ex., I've experimented with this in my offline life by getting small groups of bw in the black residential area near me to acknowledge that a particular bm is indeed DBR, however when I then mention that another bm and another bm and another bm demonstrate the SAME behavior, this is when those women begin to exhibit discomfort or avoidance behaviors (agitation, arguing, looking around the room, shrugging shoulders, leaving to go to the bathroom, nappping, getting silent and slumping, etc.) I've also done this with a few bm, but much more diplomatically, of course, (LOL), and in ALL cases these bm blamed bw for the males' DBR behavior. LOL!!!
What I ment to add to my earliar post was that it is so sad that the AA community has degenerated to the level of beasts.
But we have to put that emphasis on that so-called black "community" mindset because there are still MANY "normal" AA ***INDIVIDUALS*** who feel compelled out of fear or weariness of infighting to hide their normalcy from the "acting black crowd." Remember, there are tons of Ikes and Ikettes and their sympathizers offline too. Many people cannot withstand the onslaught of the Ikes and Ikettes and they shouldn't have to go through that anyway. But it's an unsafe social situation even in everyday type conversations among AAs, sometimes. Many "normal" AAs (or those with significant amounts of common sense) have to be careful about what they say around the ABCs and their apologists. Very few of them can just make these common sense comments that we make online. They have to dodge and duck in order to say common sense things. I've noticed that even when black individuals say common sense things, they often must go into lengthy explanations, backtrack, play it off with humor, change the subject abruptly, and sometimes even apologize in order to not be attacked.
Folks HATE it when anybody points out these animal kingdom parallels, but they do exist.
Yep, humans are simply higher order animals.
Can you believe that there is a public official somewhere(can't remember the state) who is running for election. The black-on-black crime is so high that part of his platform is to bring back the noose. And this dude is black. Have things actually gotten this bad?
This would be the Rwanda kick-off or ethnic cleansing. The fact is that this man is not alone in his thoughts. There are other blacks who think the same or similarly and are preparing themselves mentally and physically for a Rwanda. As a matter of fact, I first became aware of Khadija when she stated this outright because if you listen to the subtexts of various AAs conversations, they're thinking this but won't come out and flatly say it like she did. Then there are many warm and fuzzy thinking black folks can't wrap their brains around the fact that without INTENSE intervention, that old dirty ball inside black residential areas will keep rolling down the hill. Meanwhile, if you listen to the masses of AA males, they continue to blame AA women for the bulk of the havoc, and actually expect US womenfolk to do SOMETHING. LOL!!!!!!! Whew!!
That's one thing that I can't stand about Jackson Snr. He still prances about as if he is some bonafide moral authority.
My take on this is that even if a person is morally flawed (as we ALL are to some extent), I will still listen carefully to their advice if I think it can help me. For ex, even if a doctor is a smoker and tells me that smoking is bad for me, I would still listen to her/him and try to stop smoking. My credo is to take any advice that might be beneficial to me and mine and trash the rest. I personally don't care where the "good" advice comes from.
Even the married ones do this as well.
Yeah, some of the males who are DBRs, NVs, Lvs, and etc. are definitely married. That's why choosing to only associate with QUALITY males should be the first law of common sense for any AA female. If you ONLY associate with Quality males, you won't end up with a child by a babydaddy or find yourself married to any of the males in these loser categories of whatever race or group.
And re my statement that AAs don't actually have a culture, let me point out that according to what a culture means, AAs had a "pseudo" and obviously a temporary, make-do culture. AAs were never able or didn't see the need to establish an actual culture though we had certain practices that defended and protected us from SOME of the savagery of slavery and Jim Crow and enabled some of us to rise despite the monumental odds against us. However, we were always in a reactive state, as we are now, and rarely if ever in a proactive one. There were many wonderful things that resulted from AA pseudo culture like blues music (a reaction to oppression), Gospel music (reaction to oppression), Jazz (a reaction to oppression), and too many other things to mention. There were many black INDIVIDUAL achievers, inventors and such. Harshness can produce awesome beauty like the pearl that develops due to never-ending friction inside of an oyster.
Even many of the positive things AAs highlight, we do that as a reaction to oppression as if to say "we can do good things too." For ex, even when I highlight the beauty and desirability of bw, it's also a reaction to oppression (racist AND sexist).
A culture must be largely proactive, POSITIVE, and uplifting at a certain point and it must address the needs of the people. I think that IF AAs--after the civil rights movement--had realized that we needed to focus a large portion of our intellectual and other resources on building our own culture and had leaders to organize us to do so, we would have had a good chance at setting up a bona fide POSITIVE and uplifting culture. However, when the society opened up more towards us, most AA leaders devalued and/or ditched those old ways and fled. As AAs saw or thought they saw oppression subsiding, they saw no value in AAs having their own culture.
I hear some folks blaming Hip-Hop music for killing AA culture, but no actual culture would be that flimsy to be wiped out by a relatively small number of people making music. LOL!
If there were no more war in the middle east, would Arabs devalue and ditch their culture? Would Asians or Africans devalue and ditch their culture and flee under similar circumstances? I don't think so because for the most part, their culture is INSIDE of them.
Khadija, Evia, Lisa and other bloggers:
There are many black women who are gaining SO MUCH from reading your thoughts, myself included. Evia's story about the young lady on the blog printing out her essays and sharing them at her meeting got me thinking about this.
If your readers want to share your blog with other people, how would you prefer they do it?
I admittedly have e-mailed a blog or two that Khadija wrote to my friends and female family members, but I always include Khadija's name and hyperlink to her blog.
A lot of young ladies use Facebook, Myspace, Google Chat and all kinds of things and they frequently copy and paste stuff they read on other sites and publish it. Khadija, you've mentioned before your apprehension about doing certain posts because you don't want people applying their own jacked up logic to it (LOL). We all have "filters" as Reverend Lisa says and it could be problematic if a young lady reads your blog, takes one little part, and goes off on her own tangent in front of all 500 of her Facebook friends. Will she be able to handle the backlash she will likely receive from the DBRs she may be friends with? How will she defend YOUR words?
Plus, I think I remember Reverend Lisa saying on her site that she doesn't want people copy and pasting her blogs.
You all's information is SO valuable and can help so many people! Do you all have a preference for how this information is disseminated? Would you prefer it not be shared in totality and provide hyperlinks instead?
@Enlightened:
Thank you for your kind words about the blog. I truly appreciate it.
I DON'T want anybody to cut and paste ANYTHING from my essays. For all of the reasons you mentioned, as well as other reasons.
When another blogger used excerpts from one of my posts, she got permission from me IN ADVANCE, and provided proper attribution and a link to my blog post. There are only a VERY small number of bloggers that I would trust like this.
I prefer that people link to the blog, so that others can read the ideas and discussions in their entirety and within context.
It's also fine with me if people print out the essays and pass them out.
My issue is that I don't want folks taking bits and pieces (out of context) from my essays and then running around with these distorted bits and pieces.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@Ayona:
THANK YOU for explaining the hyperlinks. I'm computer-clueless---I only figured out how to cut and paste about 6 months ago! LOL!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I think dissensus is a good thing because if nothing else, when someone disagrees you have to back up and examine your views. I don't think any of us are too enlightened to rethink our positions. Sometimes points are only clarified and substantiated when you're forced to examine them through someone else's eyes. I'm leery of people who take a position and never change it and are never willing to listen to anyone else's views. This type of sheeple/groupthink approach is one of the things that have been so detrimental to the black so-called community. We cannot be foolish enough to fall into the same patterns of behavior as that of the failed black like me crew. Practicing the same behaviors will have the same results: discord and dissolution. We cannot have a singular leader. We must ALL be leaders ready to step into the breach when one or more of us fails. Otherwise our movement is doomed to fail.
Back when I posted a lot on interracial boards I would tell IR newbies that they should examine their core beliefs regularly. Otherwise they would quickly fall under the onslaught from the soul patrol. Thus, the specter of dissent was used to help them develop a deeper and stronger belief system.
I think dissent and a multi-foci approach is far better than a single group think. In fact I think group think is unbelievably destructive. To my mind it's impossible for people from such varied backgrounds to all share a singular belief system. And if they do, it's dangerous and easy to undermine. Terrorist groups discovered this a while back. Rather than have a single leader who can then be killed or incarcerated, they have many leaders and many approaches to their goal. I strongly believe that as long as the central focus is the same: the empowerment of black women, we can and should have many pathways to that goal.
Evia said...
I hear some folks blaming Hip-Hop music for killing AA culture, but no actual culture would be that flimsy to be wiped out by a relatively small number of people making music. LOL!
That's a damn good point. Hip-Hop gangsta "rap" (CRAP) "music" was simply the last straw that broke the already internally unstable camels back.
Crap "music" wasn't the beginning of the end. BUT IMO it was one of the biggest triggers that started the cataclysmic permanent demise.
It brought to a head the damage that previously was kept hidden/under wraps in a sizable number of BM's minds. Due to fear from racist WM and the power structure, this damage was kept in check back in the day.
IMO after the Civil rights movement, it became free-flowing.
For instance, in the 60's and 70's you had the flamboyant criminal pimp/thug being glamorized in the Blaxploitation films.
The formally oppressed BM could "get back at the man". While the formally oppressed BW - who was being oppressed by the white community AND often the black community (especially BM) TOO, was hoodwinked into supporting BM against "the system" (a system that BM wished to join ALL ALONG) when they we're simply being PLAYED.
And most are STILL allowing themselves to be played.
For FOOLS and for CHEAP and for NOTHING.
NO real, solid, self-loving, healthy culture would EVEN HAVE sizable numbers of male members so DEBASED/SICK to even create something called "gangsta rap (crap)" "music".
And NO real, solid, self-loving, healthy culture would have sizable numbers of men and women so DEBASED/SICK to LISTEN to it, allow their impressionable children to be poisoned by it, and promote it world wide so that others outside of ones group could think LESS of African descended people.
That's not what REAL functioning cultures/communities do. REAL WORKING CIVILIZED cultures uplift it's men AND women AND children. They seek progress and advancement, instead of backwardness, degeneracy and de-evolution.
It's long past time for self-respecting, self-loving, mentally high-functioning WOC of whatever percentage of African ancestry to LEAVE the modern "bc" and NOT LOOK BACK.
Because the "bc" deep down doesn't GIVE A DAMN about BW and black girls.
On an INDIVIDUAL level of course there is normalcy and love left. Concern. Care.
BUT, those of us blessed enough to have come from these loving normal environments which shouldn't be extraordinary are in the minority these days.
And this in itself tells me all I need to know.
The so called "bc" on a grand scale - at least in relation to BW and black girls - is DEAD.
And it is INSANE to care about, support, and put your biological time clock (which does tick out at some point) on hold for a "community"/"people" who don't care about you.
BW can and some ARE forming NEW HEALTHY communities with good NON damaged NON color struck, successful, family and MARRIAGE oriented men in the GLOBAL village.
Leave these polluted ponds and start fishing in the CLEAR BLUE OPEN SEAS.
@Roslyn:
You said, "Sometimes points are only clarified and substantiated when you're forced to examine them through someone else's eyes."
True. You often don't have a fully thought-through position until you're asked to defend that position during discussion.
You said, "I'm leery of people who take a position and never change it and are never willing to listen to anyone else's views."
I am too. Elijah Muhammad was correct when he said, "A wise man changes many times. A fool never changes." This is what I found so disturbing about the "flip-flopper" political slur. As if there's something inherently wrong with somebody being willing to reassess and modify their views.
You said, "This type of sheeple/groupthink approach is one of the things that have been so detrimental to the black so-called community. We cannot be foolish enough to fall into the same patterns of behavior as that of the failed black like me crew. Practicing the same behaviors will have the same results: discord and dissolution."
The Borg-like "hive mind" is deadly. We have to adopt more mature and sophisticated ways of thinking. And put away childish things like seeking emotional comfort in uniformity. [Which is what I believes drives much of the Borg-behavior.]
You said, "We cannot have a singular leader. We must ALL be leaders ready to step into the breach when one or more of us fails. Otherwise our movement is doomed to fail."
The "one big leader" [Big Daddy or Big Mama] theory of mobilization is another childish notion that we must set aside. As you said, we must ALL prepare ourselves to assume the responsibilities of leadership. Everybody has to be a grown up.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
This is what I found so disturbing about the "flip-flopper" political slur.
That drives me insane. Anyone who has never changed their mind or been wrong about an issue is either unbelievably arrogant or mentally ill. Neither are qualities that I want in a leader.
[Which is what I believes drives much of the Borg-behavior.]
Definitely. I think it's human nature to huddle together in like-minded tribes. It reinforces our own belief system which is why it's so dangerous. If no one ever bothers to question the status quo, how then can we move ahead?
I think if you find yourself surrounded by people who think exactly as you do, more than likely you're not being sufficiently radical. I think we should get nervous when other people agree with us too readily. Given the fact that our society is so totally screwed up, finding lots of people from that society who agree with you should be troubling.
I have long shaken my head at the normalization of OOW births.
Amen...I told a girlfriend that I only want to have children if I am married and she looked at me as if I had 3 heads. Now to give you a little background, she was raised by a struggling single mother and I was raised in a two parent home.
I wonder how many times such a conversation is had in the black community before all of these OOW births that no one is trying to prevent occur?
Well this same girl got pregnant by a guy who had no intentions of marrying her and now she is a struggling single mother. I recently realized that most black kids are born out of a fling...They are not born out of love relationships...It might not be a one night stand...but I bet that the majority are not couples with weddings that were called off at the last minute or couples that discussed having kids with each other...I would guess that a majority of them are the result of a fling or relationships that are little more than flings...sad...
One thing that I am not sure that you mentioned for survival...well not actually survival but wealth building (for the future) is investing in stock. I am not talking about 401k's. Yes I think that 401ks are important as well as individual mutual funds, roth iras and cds. But I am talking about individual stocks like Citigroup (C) This stock was less than a dollar when I bought it and it is now over $3.00...These stocks are really cheap now and an easy way to build up wealth over time. I was out of work in graduate school a few years ago and made a lot of money off of Apple's stock and actually paid my mortgage with it for a few months! Ladies look into stocks. Look at the green energy sector, stem cell, banking and the tech stocks....You can make money...I did!!!
I am the product of an out of wedlock birth, but I lived a pretty unconventional childhood in that I am the only child of both my parents (what can I say, perfection was achieved on the first shot...LOL), I was raised predominantly by my Dad because he had a more stable career, and my unmarried parental units got along pretty well.
I think it makes a difference if OOW's are either raised by their fathers or if the father is very active/present in their lives. I know a lot of young ladies who were raised only by their mothers and I would be lying if I said I didn't notice a difference in how they think and act compared to how I (and other girls I know who were raised by their fathers) think and act.
I also was still able to live a middle class life, which I also believe made a difference. Aside from my parents, I had a very extensive familial network with college educated/accomplished relatives who provided positive reinforcement and guidance at every turn. I also did a lot of traveling as a child, played all kinds of instruments, took dance classes, and did lots of things that exposed my mind to things outside of my immediate environment.
Although I think I turned out pretty good for an OOW birth (college educated, two years into my career, headed for graduate school, no children, long term relationship headed for marriage, 401k just got matched by the J-O-B LOL!), I will not have children without being married. I'm not ashamed of my background at all, I don't apologize for it, and I love my parents DEARLY. But I also value the institution of marriage and I believe at the end of the day, it's better to have two loving parents in the same household in a loving marriage than not.
Although OOW births certainly aren't ideal, with some HEAVY positive intervention by adults who care, it IS possible to avoid a disaster. I certainly don't try to paint myself as any kind of exception or make it seem like I'm special because I'm not. But my upbringing has just reinforced that it really is about the people around the children and how committed they are to making sure that child turns out well rounded.
@Anonymous:
You said, "I recently realized that most black kids are born out of a fling...They are not born out of love relationships...It might not be a one night stand...but I bet that the majority are not couples with weddings that were called off at the last minute or couples that discussed having kids with each other..."
Pitiful, but true. And then the women often try to convert the fling into a real relationship after becoming pregnant.
You said, "One thing that I am not sure that you mentioned for survival...well not actually survival but wealth building (for the future) is investing in stock. I am not talking about 401k's. Yes I think that 401ks are important as well as individual mutual funds, roth iras and cds. But I am talking about individual stocks like Citigroup (C) This stock was less than a dollar when I bought it and it is now over $3.00...These stocks are really cheap now and an easy way to build up wealth over time."
No, I haven't specifically discussed stocks. I believe that stocks are an important component of building wealth, but I wouldn't make it my primary (or even secondary) strategy.
Here's why: I'm skittish about things and processes that I have NO control whatsoever over. Especially things that I have NO way of knowing what's really happening with my asset. By contrast, a person is in a position to know exactly what's going on with their own rental property or the business they own. These are things where it's possible to get a bead on your stuff.
Closed systems like the stock market are games where only certain industry insiders are in positions to make truly informed choices. The stock market is a closed system where everybody who's not an insider has to make decisions based on blind faith, while relying upon the honesty and integrity of the insiders.
ENRON. ENRON. ENRON.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@Enlightened:
The problem is that almost everybody makes the claims that you're making. Everybody claims that their situation is different from the usual mess. Meanwhile, look at what is happening among us despite all of these "atypical" people who claim to have had better outcomes.
I'm not doubting what you're saying about your own situation. I'm just pointing out that almost everybody makes the same claims. Almost everybody claims that their parents made the OOW situation "work" in their particular situation. Including dysfunctional people who claim to have turned out "just fine."
NO! I feel that if bringing back shame and disgrace for OOW births is what it takes for us to survive, then so be it.
And I happen to believe that bringing back a sense of shame and disgrace for OOW births IS what is needed to get our people back on track. Imposing shame and disgrace for OOW is the HUMAN norm throughout ALL of human history. It is the norm because this is what actually works to safeguard a society from the mass chaos created by OOW births.
We can all see what this "let's not be ashamed of OOW births" notion has led to: the total destruction of the AA collective. Sometimes you have to be "cruel" and "harsh" to be kind in the long run.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@ Khadija,
You said:
"And I happen to believe that bringing back a sense of shame and disgrace for OOW births IS what is needed to get our people back on track. Imposing shame and disgrace for OOW is the HUMAN norm throughout ALL of human history. It is the norm because this is what actually works to safeguard a society from the mass chaos created by OOW births.
We can all see what this "let's not be ashamed of OOW births" notion has led to: the total destruction of the AA collective. Sometimes you have to be "cruel" and "harsh" to be kind in the long run."
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Don't get me wrong...even I, the product of an OOW birth, am able to see that the whole OOW phenomenon has been disastrous for black people as a whole (again, I don't want that situation for MY children). I also know that ME saying I'm awesome doesn't mean jack because other people may think otherwise. LOL
But should this be a lifelong shame and disgrace that these people are subject to? Does it extend to the child? Who doles out this shame and disgrace? What exactly does the shame and disgrace entail (social ostricization, refusal of access to community resources, etc.)? Would there be any efforts to counsel these women and men and try and encourage them to marry? What is the end goal that you're expecting the shame and disgrace to accomplish? I can see on a community/generational level it would get folks to straighten up if it were clear that the behavior was unacceptable, but on an individual level, how does that work?
Will efforts to stop pre-marital sex be part of the efforts related to reducing OOW births?
On a related note, do you have any thoughts on the "Marry Your Baby Daddy" program in NYC that attempts to wed "baby mamas and daddies" after extensive counseling and therapy (at least, that's what they SAID they do on "Black in America" LOL)?
I am sorry to throw all these questions at you (and I wouldn't be mad if you didn't feel like addressing them all! LOL!). But the normalization of OOW births is NOT the business and has had disastrous effects on the black community. I'm very intrigued by how this would work on a practical level.
Although OOW births certainly aren't ideal, with some HEAVY positive intervention by adults who care, it IS possible to avoid a disaster.--enlightened
This is certainly true. Marriage before children is ideal but oow birth doesn't mean certain disaster. But oow births as it is in the bc has means disaster for the most part. I believe it could be due to the fact that many oow births are from teen parents (or at any rate, those too young). But I'd have to be honest and say that the many black women I see who are approaching the end childbearing years w/o children or a man in sight is also a cause for concern. Such women are in many cases found in churches and maybe other religious institutions. They can also be found among black professional women. I'm not speaking of those who do not desire motherhood, but those who do.
As for ww, many of their oow births are due to the rise in the single mother by choice phenomenon. The effects of oow births among smc's aren't yet known since they are currently being followed.
@Enlightened:
You asked, "But should this be a lifelong shame and disgrace that these people are subject to? Does it extend to the child? Who doles out this shame and disgrace? What exactly does the shame and disgrace entail (social ostricization, refusal of access to community resources, etc.)?"
Response: ALL of the above.
You asked, "Would there be any efforts to counsel these women and men and try and encourage them to marry?"
Response: Enforcing open, obvious negative sanctions IS counseling. When folks see that bad things happen as a result of certain actions, then you don't have to "counsel" [read: beg] them to refrain from those actions.
You asked, "What is the end goal that you're expecting the shame and disgrace to accomplish? I can see on a community/generational level it would get folks to straighten up if it were clear that the behavior was unacceptable, but on an individual level, how does that work?"
Response: The end goal is to make OOW unacceptable among our people. The same way OOW has been unacceptable in EVERY culture throughout recorded HUMAN history. The same way OOW used to be unacceptable among AAs.
This idea really isn't all that complicated or mysterious. In fact, up until the 1960s, Black folks understood this idea and enforced it.
You asked, "Will efforts to stop pre-marital sex be part of the efforts related to reducing OOW births?"
Response: I don't care about pre-marital sex as long as people "handle their business" and don't create problems with pre-marital sex. [Problems such as OOW, STDs, etc.]
You said, "On a related note, do you have any thoughts on the "Marry Your Baby Daddy" program in NYC that attempts to wed "baby mamas and daddies" after extensive counseling and therapy (at least, that's what they SAID they do on "Black in America" LOL)?"
Response: I think it's a pathetic, humiliating disgrace to AA people. I think that any Negro who has to be begged or bribed to marry his child's mother is a worthless, genetically INFERIOR, sack o' s***. And let's be real, it's the guys that are withholding marriage in these situations.
You said, "I am sorry to throw all these questions at you (and I wouldn't be mad if you didn't feel like addressing them all! LOL!). But the normalization of OOW births is NOT the business and has had disastrous effects on the black community. I'm very intrigued by how this would work on a practical level."
Response: Don't be sorrry! LOL! I like detailed, thorough questions and discussions. Thank you for raising all of these points. You've elevated the conversation by doing so.
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@Lormarie:
You said, "But I'd have to be honest and say that the many black women I see who are approaching the end childbearing years w/o children or a man in sight is also a cause for concern. Such women are in many cases found in churches and maybe other religious institutions. They can also be found among black professional women. I'm not speaking of those who do not desire motherhood, but those who do."
I wholeheartedly agree! And I'll say what you DIDN'T say (and I'll say it the blunt way): The AA collective currently has a "perfect storm" of the inferior among us having the bulk of our babies. The stupid, the clueless, those lacking in common sense, the criminally-inclined, the mentally ill, and the dope fiends among us are having the lion's share of our babies.
This is why it's critical that more decent, professional, genetically sound BW marry out. Our people are GREATLY diminished by not having these type of women contributing to our collective's gene pool!
With so many of these worthy BW being brainwashed into the "nothing but a BM" mindset, they and WE are missing out. Meanwhile, the least among us are breeding like roaches.
I see this everyday at work with the Black underclass clients. I have watched the Black underclass get more defective, deficient and inferior with each year that passes.
This is the unspoken angle to why the AA collective is de-evolving. We never tell the truth about this angle.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@PioneerValleyWoman:
You said, "Reading your comments here Khadija and those of the others, it occurred to me that one difficulty in even talking about the issue of pregnancy before sexual intimacy, is the way that many men tend to see preventing pregnancy as being solely up to their female partners, and then if pregnancy occurs, the response is: "she's trying to trap me!""
Modern Negroes see it as the woman's problems ALONE because the consequences currently fall on the woman ALONE. Whether they thought women were trying to "trap" them or not, previous generations of BM had much more incentive to "handle their business" because any potential consequences would land on THEIR heads as well [shotgun marriage, etc.]
It's ridiculous that modern Negroes are talking about "traps." There aren't any "traps" nowadays! There are NO shotgun marriages.
At worst, there are the financial penalties of paying child support. And from defending countless numbers of Negroes in child support courtrooms, I've seen the various means of evading those financial responsibilities.
Not to mention that most of the Negroes talking about financial "traps" don't have any money to capture! As my hairdresser commented, a lot of them "don't even have active Social Security numbers."
But this gets back to BW walking away from these nuts. Why in the world are BW having sex with Negroes who harbor these types of attitudes in the first place?! This is beyond senseless. It's suicidal.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello Khadija,
@ Anon
"One thing that I am not sure that you mentioned for survival...well not actually survival but wealth building (for the future) is investing in stock. I am not talking about 401k's. Yes I think that 401ks are important as well as individual mutual funds, roth iras and cds. But I am talking about individual stocks like Citigroup (C) This stock was less than a dollar when I bought it and it is now over $3.00...These stocks are really cheap now and an easy way to build up wealth over time. I was out of work in graduate school a few years ago and made a lot of money off of Apple's stock and actually paid my mortgage with it for a few months! Ladies look into stocks. Look at the green energy sector, stem cell, banking and the tech stocks....You can make money...I did!!!"
I think it is awesome that you were able to do this! You paid off a mortgage and I am trying to get one in the future. LOL I like stories like this.
I have been interested in stocks, but I am so scared of losing money and the way BW got treated re: housing crisis is proof that you need to be as educated when it comes to that kind of money. Since there is such a steep learning curve I have kinda shied away.
But this sounds like a great BW empowerment blog idea for the BW who has this kind of knowledge.
Khadija
I agree about the real estate..That is my next move more real estate..god willing...
Hello Khadija,
re OOW births
These are definitely some interesting points being made.
I want to present another angle. I have been and still get approached by BM who openly want me to get pregnant. This is what they tell me up front. Now if I were foolish enough to do the deed this may morph into "it was your fault, its not mine"...etc
I do not talk to these men as in looking for a relationship with them and definitely do not have sex with them.
But I am just saying ...
I have had more than enough to express this to me up front for this to be an isolated thing- that they want me to have their baby, asking me to have their baby, telling me that they are going to give me a baby, telling me that if we ever had sex that they would get me pregnant, joking about flushed birth control pills, pinholes being punched into condoms without my knowledge before we have sex if we were to have sex....I could go on.
So I am thinking maybe to a certain kind of woman maybe this could be a lure/trap for her. If OOW births are so common and she and he are both products of one and they think they are in love- maybe this is their concept of family, but the tune changes once the deed is done.
When a man says this to me- I find it insulting. But it still happens.
Atypical people do not continuously manifest typical results...
Atypical people do not continuously appeal to the lowest common denominator in order to stay in a comfort zone or feel superior...
My less than 2 cents...So love this blog!
REF STOCK MARKET
As a former trader adhere to this first and foremost:
"Never invest more money than you are afraid to lose"
@Anonymous:
I'm not dissing stocks. I just feel better about assets that I can directly control what's going on with them.
_______________
@Aphrodite:
You said, "So I am thinking maybe to a certain kind of woman maybe this could be a lure/trap for her. If OOW births are so common and she and he are both products of one and they think they are in love- maybe this is their concept of family, but the tune changes once the deed is done."
Some things are just too stupid. This lure/trap is one such thing. Why don't these women think to flip this around and tell the person: "Fine, we can get married, and THEN I'll have all the babies you want."
________________
@CW:
Thanks for the blog love! LOL! I truly appreciate it. Also, I think that's prudent advice about stocks.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
As-salaamu-alaikum Khadija,
RE: ostracization.
Oh, I can tell you how it works, from listening to the relatives.
Picture it: anytown in the U.S., 1963 (Remember Sophia from Golden Girls? "Picture it: Sicily, 1943. A beautiful young girl.." OK sorry I digress)
Picture it: anytown USA, early 1960s. A 16 year old has a baby out of wedlock. One sunny spring afternoon, she's pushing her stroller down the neighborhood block, on her way home from the pediatrician. A gaggle of her friends comes up and starts oohing and aahhing over the baby. "How cute!" says one. "So adorable!" coos another.
Suddenly, a chorus of disapproving maternal voices is heard from every window on the street. "Tammy Mae, you get in this house this instant!" "Donna, come here right now!" "Sharlene, I told you not to talk to thatgirl. Come here!" "Rosemarie, if you don't get away from that stroller..."
The girls all slink away.
Rosemarie complains when she gets inside. "Mom, I was just looking at the baby!" Her mom throws the dishtowel over her shoulder and gives her a stern look. "What, you never seen a baby before? Go do your homework. You are NOT allowed to talk to that girl."
Meanwhile, "that girl" sighs and pushes the stroller back to her house. She's barely in the door before she is assaulted by the accusing stares of her younger sisters. "Thanks to you, Tanya's mom said she's not allowed to go to the movies with me on Saturday!" "Betty Ann's not allowed to skip rope with me!" says the other.
Yup, that's right. The girl lost her friends, and even the innocent sisters had to bear some of the shame. NO baby showers. NO positive attention from everyone cooing over the baby. NO acceptance.
The shame and ostracizing would lighten up off the sisters in awhile as they proved themselves not to be like their older sister. But the whole family felt the effects.
UNpleasant, NOT fair, but very effective.
Re sharing my site with others, I too want the link sent. Don't cut out passages. This is why I've always urged bw to send others to my site. I have had too many people DELIBERATELY distort what I say and then say I said it.
Sometimes, it doesn't matter what you actually write. The Ikes, Ikettes and other saboteurs tell flat out lies and put words in your mouth anyway. One thing that blogging has reinforced for me is that if there's a group out there who wants rip you, even a sloppy manipulator can easily manipulate them into believing anything bad about you--because they want to believe it.
This is a good lesson to learn or actually have reinforced.
This is just how bw have been manipulated to stay away from wm & other nonbm and focus exclusively on bm. Bm knew that bw would believe the worst about wm--that 'they only want you for sex,' 'wm can't jump,' 'you're just a fetish to him,' 'they'll never take you home to meet their mother,' they're not attracted to bw, etc. and it didn't and doesn't take much at all to manipulate bw to stay waiting patiently, in bw's various cages (black community, black church, black social circles, etc.) with totally closed or suspicious minds towards wm and other non-bm. Whereas, despite all of the blood on the hands of racist ww historically AND now, bm have not let that make them pause in pursuing ww. As a matter of fact, some bm are now claiming that racist ww were "forced" by de evil wm to do what they did and so any blood on their hands should be seen as simply red nail polish.
And of course many of these males have NO problem flatly stating that ww and non-bw are better mates. There are many OJ's, Wesley Snipes, Arsenios, Yung Bergs, Neyo's out there. And they don't tiptoe around saying what they say. They don't even try to be FAIR. They state it out whether it bothers bw or not. They DON'T CARE. I'll bet that some of them know that when you declare yourself, you're MUCH more successful at getting what you want. These bm do NOT care about being "Fair."
Hmmm, that might be a good name for the re-branded group: "Declared" or some derivation or synonym. I've personally lived my life as a declared person. When you declare yourself, declare what you want and don't try to hide yourself, you attract what you want.
I consider myself a good person, but I don't dwell on 'fairness' because I repeat: 'life is not fair.'
However most self-sacrificing AA women (and that's the vast majority of them) are going to have it carved on their tombstones: "She bent over backwards for everbody; she was perpetually FAIR."
Now let me be clear about bm with nonbw because I think bw do need to declare their position about that, so this is mine. If bm have found, in their experience, that non-bw are better mates, then I PERSONALLY don't have a problem with them saying it because on the reciprocity front, I've decided to do and am doing as little as possible for grown bm anyway--aside from my own sons.
However, many of those same bm go ballistic if a bw says she thinks that non-AA men are better mates--even if she's experienced that.
So forget that! I believe that it's very important for AA women to start saying it out LOUDLY and DECLARING it--if that has been their experience--so that other AA women can hear about the wonderful experiences that others of us have had dating and mating with non-AA men, that is IF any particular bw really believes that AA women need to date and mate out.
Now these are my OPINIONS, y'all. Take what you can use and . . . .
This feeds into the issues being discussed here.
re:
I have had more than enough to express this to me up front for this to be an isolated thing- that they want me to have their baby, asking me to have their baby, telling me that they are going to give me a baby,
ANY black male who talks to you about you having his baby before he proposes marriage or marries you is DAMAGED BEYOND REPAIR. That's straight up plantation-talk. That's what they had to do on those plantations: impregnate as many bw as possible in as short a time as possible. Now you didn't say whether it was a wm, Chinese man, Arab man etc. who said this, but I would bet my fingers and toes it wasn't. LOL!
And what's even more amazing is that some AA women will chuckle or even be flattered about that and shrug it off. They're not insulted, as you say you were.
SMH. When I coined the term "damaged beyond repair" to describe a large proportion of AA males, I think some folks thought I was trying to bash AA men. I wasn't. I was simply stating an OBVIOUS fact. This has been an obvious fact to me for 2 decades. Yet, so many of the discussions revolve around pressing and parsing this situation to include lots of AA males. Really, the vast bulk of them are not worth discussing if AA women are talking about surviving and thriving.
Women cannot plan a future and survive over time without men, so I think it's time to clearly define who these men are going to be. After becoming as flawless as each woman decides she wants to be, it's time for AA women to then declare who the men are who they expect to have with them in making their future.
Khadija, IMO that would be an aspect of the re-branding--a declaration to the world that only QUALITY men need apply for women in the re-branded group.
Anyway, I'm going to speak from MY experience and flat out say that Nigerian men and wm ARE better mates. I dated several QUALITY men from each of those groups and married one from each, and if I were to ever start dating again, I would look first at these two groups. After all, all animals go back to the well that gives water.
Now I hate to say this, but I've come to the conclusion that SOME seemingly sharp AA women these days are not on the same intellectual level as many DBRbm. I probably don't define intellect the way many other people do. I define intellect and intelligence in terms of their real life value. Intellect and intelligence to me are about shrewdness and surviving and thriving--not necessarily about getting A's in school or getting degrees UNLESS those good grades and degrees lead into making a person more shrewd and a better strategist at surviving and thriving. At the end of the day, what good are A's, high SAT scores, college degrees and professional diplomas if you're not surviving and thriving or drying up and dying out?
I think that Lormarie brought to the forefront a very good point--that if ONLY married AA women were having children, the AA population would dwindle and FAST because of that 70%+ unpartnered figure. There's a sizeable chunk of those bw who are WAITING to get married BEFORE having babies. This is why I don't blast bw who have OOW babies even though it's a terrible situation. It's like they're damned if they do and if they don't. I personally know several "nothing but a bm" bw who were that way because the mating out option was never presented to them or they were scared, so they waited--until their clocks ticked down and out and they are regretful now because they wanted children.
A woman can't force a man to marry her. This is why she should vet men carefully and only spend time around men who are of the marrying kind. For ex., ALL of Darren's brothers are married. Every man in his family--cousins, uncles, etc. (and there are a lot of them) over 27 is married, so that told me he was most likely the marrying kind. The same goes for my Nigerian ex-husband.
So re those "good" bw drying up and dying in the black church waiting for their black prince before they start having the babies that they want, the message needs to be short and as clear as a bell. They must prepare themselves to "Either mate out or die out!" That's why I hit the ground 3 years ago running with that single message in my blog. Millions or billions of words later, those are the two inescapable options for the bulk of AA females. Only those two.
Wa Alaikum As Salaam, ForeverLoyal!
But the shaming and ostracization was fair to the unwed mother's younger sisters! Obviously, the correct message (don't have OOW) either wasn't being communicated or wasn't being understood in the OOW girl's house.
The shaming and ostracization made sure that the OOW girl's younger sisters caught the hint NOT to do have OOW. The shaming and shunning changed the course of those younger sisters' lives for the better! The shaming and shunning increased the odds that those younger sisters' children were born in decent circumstances!
God bless those other mothers. They protected the entire community from the chaos we see today. They also helped saved the OOW's younger sisters from bad lives.
______________________
@Evia:
You said, "SMH. When I coined the term "damaged beyond repair" to describe a large proportion of AA males, I think some folks thought I was trying to bash AA men. I wasn't. I was simply stating an OBVIOUS fact. This has been an obvious fact to me for 2 decades. Yet, so many of the discussions revolve around pressing and parsing this situation to include lots of AA males. Really, the vast bulk of them are not worth discussing if AA women are talking about surviving and thriving." [emphasis added]
I agree. Especially with the part I highlighted in boldface. It's amazing to watch BW do mental gymnastics to try to avoid stating the obvious: the vast majority of AA males are NOT men; they are NOT protectors or providers.
You said, "Now I hate to say this, but I've come to the conclusion that SOME seemingly sharp AA women these days are not on the same intellectual level as many DBRbm...Intellect and intelligence to me are about shrewdness and surviving and thriving... At the end of the day, what good are A's, high SAT scores, college degrees and professional diplomas if you're not surviving and thriving or drying up and dying out?"
I agree. It only counts as smarts/intelligence if it's actually doing something for you!
You said, "I think that Lormarie brought to the forefront a very good point--that if ONLY married AA women were having children, the AA population would dwindle and FAST because of that 70%+ unpartnered figure. There's a sizeable chunk of those bw who are WAITING to get married BEFORE having babies. This is why I don't blast bw who have OOW babies even though it's a terrible situation. It's like they're damned if they do and if they don't. I personally know several "nothing but a bm" bw who were that way because the mating out option was never presented to them or they were scared, so they waited--until their clocks ticked down and out and they are regretful now because they wanted children."
This is why I'm blasting EVERYBODY at this point. The vast majority of AA women are in a hypnotized death spiral with either dead end path (OOW or involuntary childlessness and solitude); and need to be shaken awake.
You said, "So re those "good" bw drying up and dying in the black church waiting for their black prince before they start having the babies that they want, the message needs to be short and as clear as a bell. They must prepare themselves to "Either mate out or die out!"...those are the two inescapable options for the bulk of AA females. Only those two."
I feel they ARE good women. I'm not going to berate anyone for doing things the right way, or for following what they believe are God's laws. The problem is NOT with being decent, God-fearing women.
The problem is that they are doing this in a manner (restricting themselves to "nothing but a BM") that is self-damaging.
Part of the reason why this situation (70% unmarried) has gotten so far out of hand is that there's a "perfect storm" of self-sabotaging messages directed at these BW. We've all talked about this before, but it bears repeating.
NOBODY is saying what you, Halima, and now I am saying. Certainly NOBODY was disseminating this message only 5 years ago. Most of the voices that are talking to AA women are doing so for their own selfish benefit, such as BM preachers, BM (mis)leaders, etc.
Also, some of the BW preaching "mate out or die out" are not effective "preachers" because their message is tainted with the worship of Whites, biracials and other non-Blacks. That same, old White supremacy poison is mixed in with their message.
I know for myself that this is part of why I had a (short) delay in seriously evaluating this message after first hearing it. I was REPULSED by the Black-hating statements that went along with the message from some messengers. I went to a high school where the mulattos, quadroons, and those who pass the paper bag test were worshipped. I'm NOT going back to that particular plantation. NEVER AGAIN. I actually value and WANT to keep my racial self-respect and pride.
Those people such as older BF relatives who might actually mean these women well are giving them obsolete advice. Advice that only worked in the previous eras when BM were still socially required to be marrying men.
We've had several DECADES of an all-out assault on AA women's sense of self-worth. This was accomplished through the denigration of hip-hop, and the accompanying promotion of the "biracials," and "Cablanasians" at the expense of typical BLACK women.
This is where the OJ's, Wesley Snipes, Arsenios, Yung Bergs, Neyo's, the NFL, the NBA,etc. come in.
So, to add it up:
-40 years of Harry Belafontes and Sidney Poitiers, OJs, Wesley Snipes, etc.;
-almost 30 years of hip-hop and the virulent denigration of BW that is part of that mess;
-about 25 years of masses of Black folks OPENLY worshipping the "biracials" and "Cablanasians" in our midst at the expense of non-"exotic," un-"mixed" BW;
VERSUS
-Less than 5 years of the "mate out or die out" message being disseminated. With said message being disseminated in part by a few preachers who are mixing Black self-hatred poison into the message.
Well, we've all got our work cut out for us. LOL!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Good morning, Khadija!
You said: Response: I don't care about pre-marital sex as long as people "handle their business" and don't create problems with pre-marital sex. [Problems such as OOW, STDs, etc.]
------------------------
See, this is what intrigues me the most about the discussion of single motherhood/OOW births.
Because everytime you engage in sexual intercourse, the consequences are a toss-up. You COULD contract an STD, you might not. You COULD become pregnant, you might not. Birth control and condoms, although near fail proof, are NOT 100% fail proof. It it still possible to become pregnant with condom usage and there are certainly STD's you can still contract even with condom usage.
How can there be a stigma against the outcome, but not the behavior that causes it? Since the consequences of sexual intercourse are a toss-up, why is there an emphasis on shaming and disgracing single motherhood, but not the behavior of all the women who are out here getting their freak on on the regular?
Methinks a LOT of sistas who are sexing around but avoiding pregnancy (through contraception, abortion, luck, or undiagnosed fertility problems) have no problem condemning single motherhood, but would balk if someone told them to close their legs. And if it's true that the abortion rate is higher among black women than other racial groups, then that mindset is more prevalent than I realized.
Some may argue that the effects of OOW births on the black community are worse than those of women who engage in sexual intercourse but don't become pregnant. I don't know if I agree with that.
You also said that "all of the above" would apply when it comes to how you would shame and disgrace single mothers. Are you talking about shaming them in the black community in general, the black enclaves comprised of women who flee the communities, or just by society at large?
I am admittedly concerned about this because it seems like you're saying people who have or are the products of OOW births should be denied a certain quality of life or denied access to resources that could help them rise above their circumstance and become a productive member of society. Am I misinterpreting what you're saying?
If they are to be shunned by society, what can be done to ensure the parents and the child don't turn into more DBR's?
Khadija also said:
Response: I think it's a pathetic, humiliating disgrace to AA people. I think that any Negro who has to be begged or bribed to marry his child's mother is a worthless, genetically INFERIOR, sack o' s***. And let's be real, it's the guys that are withholding marriage in these situations.
LOL! True true! I laughed when I heard the name of the program. I guess I wasn't TOO hard on them because they recognize that OOW births are a problem and they are trying to remedy it. Since we can't get to folks BEFORE they engage in sex for some reason, I think it's good that there are people who try to remedy the problem on the back end.
Thank you for answering me, Khadija! This is a great topic!
To the poster who said they've had men ask them to have a baby for them, a guy who liked me in college asked me to have his baby. "Just have my baby for me...you don't have to keep it, you can let me have it". WHAT KIND OF MESS IS THIS?! I actually thought I heard him wrong and was in disbelief that he was asking me this. I didn't talk to him much after that. LOL!
I was also talking to my boyfriend about this the other day and he says he knows more men than you would think that will try purposely impregnate women that have good careers, high salaries, financial independence, strong family support, etc. DBR's CLEARLY...*shaking my head*
Good Morning, Enlightened!
Come on now. {chuckling} You're making it sound as if the masses of OOW are the result of failed birth control. As if there are legions of such failures after SERIOUS efforts at using it. We all know that's NOT real. What's really happening is that women and girls are "accidentally on purpose" getting pregnant.
These women and girls are indifferent to having OOWs and therefore don't make any serious efforts to avoid OOWs. Their use of birth control is sporadic or non-existent. Many of them have the same idiotic ideas I heard expressed by many young BW when I was in high school and college.
Idiotic ideas such as: That the effective deployment of birth control somehow made it all less "romantic." That the effective deployment of birth control somehow made a young woman promiscuous. That NOT planning for sex, and NOT using effective birth control somehow kept a young woman in the virtuous category.
BW are doing all sorts of idiotic thinking is going on regarding sexual matters.
This reminds me of how Negroes like to pretend that being stopped and patted down by the police is simply inevitable for BM. Umm, err...NO. I know many BM who have never had that experience. The odds of something like that occuring drastically decrease for BM who refrain from wearing the thug/criminal uniform (sagging pants, etc.).
Most women (single AND married) who are SERIOUS about not wanting to pregnant at a particular time in their life manage to "handle their business" and successfully use birth control. It's really not that hard. Modern stuff makes it quite simple and easy to avoid unwanted pregnancies for those who have the WILL to effectively use it.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Enlightened,
The OOW phenomenon ties into the fact that a lot of Black folks are having what I've heard called the "high school" type of sex. This aspect of our discussion ties into some things I mentioned during the Flawless conversation. I said:
"Like I said earlier, I believe that these sexual issues are a manifestation of other underlying deficits in the relationship: lack of clear communication & women's failure to demand reciprocity. Yes, this is another example of a reciprocity issue.
Similar to the personal appearance issue, this is also often a proxy for respect: self-respect and respect for one's partner.
A LOT of Black women have settled for never experiencing sexual pleasure in their relationships/marriages. To me, that's simply crazy.
There's currently-mediocre sex that is improving because the partners are talking to each other, learning what the other person enjoys, and PRACTICING on improving the quality of their partner's experience during sex.
And then there is BAD sex that will ALWAYS be bad with that particular partner because of the underlying deficits of that particular relationship: it's somebody you can't talk to; it's somebody who's too selfish to care about your pleasure, etc.
There's a WORLD of difference between mediocre sex that is steadily improving because of partner communication, interest, and practice; and forever-bad sex because a woman continues to have sex with a selfish Negro.
Sex is just one of MANY important things that people should be able to talk about in their relationship. Of course, it's really awkward in the beginning for most people to talk about sex. But the awkwardness will eventually go away; and the benefits of a couple being able to talk about the sex that they are having is worth it.
I steer away from men who can't/won't talk about important things; the "silent approach" to important things only leads to trouble later on down the road.
...I can't remember who said this, but I heard somebody make the distinction between "high school sex" and "grown-up sex." "High school sex" is furtive, can only be done in pitch-black darkness, and filled with shame & embarassment. It's generally a really bad idea & a really bad experience.
"Grown-up sex" is openly-discussed with one's partner, and can be done in full daylight without shame or embarassment. This is generally a much better experience.
Unfortunately, it's quite clear that most Black people are having "high school sex." Even as [chronological] adults. Even years into their marriages.
Even until they die. What a shame. Each woman needs to ask herself whether or not this is what she wants for the sexual part of her life.
As you mentioned, part of it is cultural due to Black folks' mostly religion-based upbringing(s). The Black church & the Black mosque tend to be totally & defiantly out of touch with reality when it comes to sexuality issues. Even when their refusal to give candid, reality-based guidance leads to the literal death & destruction of their members.
Even with all of that, I've always believed that once you're an adult you are responsible for how you live your life. As a teenager I realized that parents are responsible for people being screwed-up as kids. But once you're a certain age, it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to remain messed up in the head.
So, even though my parents never directly discussed sexual matters when I was a teenager, I marched out and bought a copy of "Our Bodies, Ourselves" to read up on the things my mother was NOT telling me.
When I was in college, a small group of friends & I sat down, bought various "The Joy of _____ Sex" books, laughed a lot, and discussed various things over pizza. There was one lesbian in the group, one guy, me, and another straight girl. We figured that we would discuss ways of approaching these conversations with our respective partners.
[The guy friend wanted to hear how other women felt about the various positions that he wanted to ask his girlfriend to experiment with. He seemed to be on a mini-Kama Sutra quest. We gave our various reviews: "That looks uncomfortable for the girl...Who in their right mind would want to do THAT mess?!...Now, THAT ONE might be pretty good...blah, blah, blah."]"
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Evia said...
"They must prepare themselves to "Either mate out or die out!" That's why I hit the ground 3 years ago running with that single message in my blog. Millions or billions of words later, those are the two inescapable options for the bulk of AA females. Only those two."
An article I came across that I thought the readership here would be interested in...
(IMO it is no coincidence that the FULL world wide options that smart BW have when it comes to wonderful, family oriented, successful, non damaged non BM are not mentioned once in this article)
http://rooseveltinstitution.wordpress.com
/2008/01/18/unimprisoned-black-men-
aware-of-their-position-in-society-
relationships/
"What’s more surprising is that as incarceration rate of otherwise marriageable black men increases, the behavior of non incarcerated black men in the same areas changes. Black men who know the odds are stacked in their favor are less likely to marry."
First of all, these SOB's being incarcerated are NOT "otherwise marriageable". Not by a LONG SHOT.
And, it's also "not surprising" that these supposedly hordes of "good" non incarcerated BM are taking full advantage of an insanely stupid SELF-INFLICTED jam BW have needlessly put themselves in.
Selfish, self-serving, antisocial, narcissistic, damaging behavior will continue and grow in any species as long as it's rewarded.
DBRBM - and we mustn't forget the vast majority of the "good ones" these days are ALSO damaged to various degrees - are being rewarded by dumbed down, lonely, brainwashed, bamboozled BW.
These poor women (the majority) who are still drinking the Kool-Aid.
I honestly don't mean to blame the victim, because most BW these days have been trained to self-destruct and don't realize they have choices. BUT when you DO know better, and STILL choose to bring harm your way, well...(SMH)
Black women need to step up their games, leave these predominantly/all black HELL HOLES and STOP abusing themselves sexually and spiritually with these DBRBM (both incarcerated and non) USERS and abusers.
It is a statistical fact - and one only needs to open their own two eyes to see - that WM (and other non BM), on average make MUCH better husbands and fathers. MUCH better leaders and contributers to their communities.
If this were not the case, you would see whites and others in COMPARABLE situations to the CHAOS that is overrunning the black "community".
BUT YOU DON'T.
You don't have the MAJORITY of white/asian/hispanic women left with the thankless burden of carrying their "race"/people and their communities innocent children on their backs ALONE.
You don't have WM, AM, HM, etc... calling their mothers, sisters, daughters, etc... every foul name in the book.
There's a reason for this.
MOST WM, AM, HM, etc... are not damaged, and self-hating like a steadily GROWING number of BM are.
WM, AM, HM, etc... realize that their women (regardless of "race"), the mothers of THEIR children, represent LIFE. The future.
Whereas many BM are fixated on DEATH.
The death of THEIR self-image/culture/heritage which they see reflected in BW.
That's why the blackest, nappiest headed, most broad featured and archetypical BW is HATED the most by these damaged creatures.
She's a reflection of HIM. And MOST BM (for various reasons) want to get as FAR away from themselves as possible.
So... any BW still having these pipe dreams about these "black princes" (SMH) out there need to wake the hell up.
When a man's PSYCHE/SOUL is damaged (and this is a SELF inflicted damage because BM could choose to heal themselves but prefer not to) he's INCAPABLE of behaving in a masculine normal fashion.
These "black princess" for the most part (the exception is not the rule) DO NOT EXIST.
BUT, there ARE TRUE Princes in the GLOBAL village. If BW could simply unshackle their minds and emotions, they could attract them into their lives.
Aphrodite:
I have had more than enough to express this to me up front for this to be an isolated thing- that they want me to have their baby, asking me to have their baby, telling me that they are going to give me a baby, telling me that if we ever had sex that they would get me pregnant, joking about flushed birth control pills, pinholes being punched into condoms without my knowledge before we have sex if we were to have sex....I could go on.
My reply:
What is missing here is a discussion of how this behavior can be indicative of something else--domination and control in the dark side of patriarchy. Denying women access to birth control has always been a means of men controlling women.
Now you were smart. Imagine a woman being "flattered" by this. She might not be ready for having a child, she might not want a child with him, but because he phrased his interest in controlling her as a compliment, she might be blinded to what his real motivation is keeping her connected to him for the rest of her life, because she had a child by him, when she might not want it!
Foreverloyal:
RE: ostracization.
Oh, I can tell you how it works, from listening to the relatives.
Picture it: anytown in the U.S., 1963..
My reply:
What is so important to remember is that all the shame and ostracism fell upon the young girl, not the young man. She bore the evidence of pregnancy, not him. If he was not married off to her, shotgun style, he could disappear and not face any consequences at all.
In thinking about that time, say 1963, the biggest issue: less access to birth control, and the vulnerability young women faced because of that. I would wonder, was she just young and naive when she became sexually active, or was she taken advantage of?
But in today's world, with access to birth control, we're talking about a whole other story!
Enlightened:
I was also talking to my boyfriend about this the other day and he says he knows more men than you would think that will try purposely impregnate women that have good careers, high salaries, financial independence, strong family support, etc. DBR's CLEARLY...*shaking my head*
My reply:
Because it is a means of bringing them down to the level of other black women who are the "statistics,..." aiming to mess up their lives and then take pleasure in doing so.
Hey again Khadija!
You said Most women (single AND married) who are SERIOUS about not wanting to pregnant at a particular time in their life manage to "handle their business" and successfully use birth control.
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Right, but why make exceptions for premarital sex at all when premarital sex is what leads to OOW births? I would think if we were really trying to find ways to reduce out of wedlock births in the black community, we would make premarital sex as shameful and disgraceful as OOW pregnancy/birth. Where are the "good old days" of women keeping their legs closed before marriage? Why isn't it being suggested that they be socially ostracized and denied access to community resources, as well?
I do agree with you that all the OOW births are not due to birth control failure. You are certainly right that a lot of it is "accidentally on purpose" carelessness. Even with imperfect use, a lot of contraceptions still have a pretty high success rate. Do you think this carelessness could be part of the root problem with black women and OOW births? That so many of them are completely fine with throwing caution to the wind and letting the chips fall where they may?
Thank you for having this discussion, Khadija! I hope I haven't derailed it too much! And just for clarification, I am NOT trying to justify OOW births. I wouldn't want it for myself NOR any of my children and I am planning accordingly to ensure it doesn't.
Hello there, Enlightened!
You asked, "Right, but why make exceptions for premarital sex at all when premarital sex is what leads to OOW births? I would think if we were really trying to find ways to reduce out of wedlock births in the black community, we would make premarital sex as shameful and disgraceful as OOW pregnancy/birth. Where are the "good old days" of women keeping their legs closed before marriage? Why isn't it being suggested that they be socially ostracized and denied access to community resources, as well?"
Here's why I don't care about premarital sex as long as people are handling their business:
1-When people properly handle their sexual lives, I don't consider it to be any of my business because they aren't making it my business by creating problems.
The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said that "Part of a person being a good Muslim is leaving alone that which does not concern him."
2-When people properly handle their sexual lives, there is no non-intrusive way of knowing that they are having sex because they are not creating problems (such as OOWs and STDs).
When people properly handle their sexual lives, the only way to know that they are having sex (and therefore shun them, if that were to be the plan) is to do some EXTREMELY invasive, intrusive things. I believe in privacy rights.
3-There were never any "good old days" in terms of premarital sex. People were simply much more careful, and were more likely to perform every sexual act EXCEPT vaginal intercourse.
Earlier generations of women were more likely to "keep their legs closed before marriage," but their mouths, hands and rear ends were frequently open. [I knew several of these "every sexual act except vaginal intercourse 'virgins'" in high school and college. They chose to think of themselves as virgins.]
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"Earlier generations of women were more likely to "keep their legs closed before marriage," but their mouths, hands and rear ends were frequently open. [I knew several of these "every sexual act except vaginal intercourse 'virgins'" in high school and college. They chose to think of themselves as virgins.]"
Things haven't really changed especially in the Caucasian community. I took my oldest daughter to a Planned Parenthood Class and there were about twenty other girls and boys in the contraception class, along with their parents.
When the facilitator asked the children who did not consider anal, oral, and hand jobs a sex act all of them raised their hand. When she asked them if after doing such an act, one would still consider themselves virgins they all raised their hands.
A few children even knew of girls who preferred engaging in these kinds of sexual acts because they were a lot safer, did not lead to unwanted/unplanned pregnancies, and sexually transmitted diseases.
Earlier generations of women were more likely to "keep their legs closed before marriage," but their mouths, hands and rear ends were frequently open.
EXACTLY! I've heard older ww talk about this. There is such a thing as 'outercourse' which can be very pleasureable for both women and men. Everyone knows that intercourse leads to pregnancy, so why exactly do so many young unmarried AA women have intercourse in the first place??????
And as Khadija is saying, nobody cares whether anyone has sex 24-7, but no one else wants to be involved in the consequences of YOUR sex life. Having OOW births and getting STDs involves other people because often others of us have to pay $$$ or are otherwise penalized. And IF a single bw has decided that she wants to have a child because she doesn't believe she'll ever get married, then she needs to prepare to do cover all the bases on her own. I don't want to have to help her to cover her bases because she could marry a decent man IF she were to broaden her options. This is why I constantly talk about this so much.
I hold both a man AND woman equally responsibility for any pregnanacy, not just the woman. The woman often is left with the child because she is WILLING to be left with that child, but she could just as easily abandon the child as the man. I hear bm slamming bw for being babymamas, but they need to think again about that because the women can also walk away. We'd all be shuddering a lot more if bw start abandoning their children the way bm abandon them.
IF bw only sexed and mingled with QUALITY men, this problem would be virtually non-existent because men of this type rarely abandon their children. When a woman is dating a man, she must gauge how he would react to an unexpected pregnancy if it were to occur.
Darren and I had MANY discussions about that. LOL! MANY! So I knew exactly how he would respond. I knew he wasn't the type of man to EVER abandon his child. I also knew my first husband wasn't the type to do that either. I could have been wrong about these guys, but there was only a slim chance of that.
Another thing I noticed was, the parents that attended the Planned Parenthood Class were overall more concerned about their children getting pregnant than they were about them having sex.
Many of them (I was one of them) believed that sex is a natural act and more often than not, children are going to engage in it somehow.
Many of them used their own personal experiences as examples of why they believed that they had a better chance of teaching their children about safer ways to engage in (as Evia mentioned) "outercourse", than to totally "forbid" them from having sex until they were married.
I thought that was pretty interesting considering AA women do just the opposite. They tend to "forbid" sex until marriage.
Many of the mother that had teenaged daughters admitted to having their teenaged daughters placed on birth control when they entered high school, or whenever the mother felt it was the appropriate time to do so.
Hello there, DeStouet!
You said, "...Many of them used their own personal experiences as examples of why they believed that they had a better chance of teaching their children about safer ways to engage in (as Evia mentioned) "outercourse", than to totally "forbid" them from having sex until they were married.
I thought that was pretty interesting considering AA women do just the opposite. They tend to "forbid" sex until marriage.
Many of the mother that had teenaged daughters admitted to having their teenaged daughters placed on birth control when they entered high school, or whenever the mother felt it was the appropriate time to do so."
Hmmm...that's interesting. After having watched my "thousands" of cousins and their "thousands" of kids over the years, I don't really care for either approach. From what I've seen, neither approach seems to work very well.
The typical AA mother calling herself "forbidding" premarital sex WITHOUT any realistic discussion of the pros and cons doesn't work very well. This just leaves girls ignorant of the emotional and physical price tags attached to premarital sex.
The other extreme of signing girls up for birth control also doesn't seem to work very well from what I've seen. Folks tend to sign their girls up and leave it at that. This also leaves girls ignorant of the emotional and physical price tags attached to premarital sex.
One of my aunts signed a cousin up for birth control and she still got pregnant (had 2, count 'em, TWO abortions) in high school.
My aunt never discussed the reality check aspects of sex (pressure from boys, not being emotionally ready for physical intimacy, etc.) with my cousin. So, my cousin was mentally unprepared to seriously consider her choices.
She allowed boyfriends to pressure her into sex that she wasn't mentally ready to have. Because she wasn't emotionally ready to have sex, she was ashamed. Because she was ashamed, she didn't use the birth control that my aunt had provided for her.
She apparently felt that using birth control would transform her into a "fast" girl. If she "just got caught up in the moment" then it meant that she wasn't a h*.{shaking my head}
What seems to have worked out the best among the people I've observed up close is access to birth control coupled with detailed, ongoing discussions of why premarital sex (ESPECIALLY in high school) is usually a very bad idea, particularly for girls:
1-The vast majority of teenage boys/young men will tell and brag that they had you. Some boys/young men will go so far as to tell all their friends every single detail of any sexual act you perform with/on them.
[I will note that I've heard unfortunate tales of adult Negroes doing this as well. One bad situation involved two police officers that worked out of the same precinct. My best friend the minister had to talk the woman out of blowing the Negro's brains out. He had told their coworkers ALL the details of their sexual encounters.]
2-The majority of boys/young men will throw you away like a used kleenex after they've had sex with you. You might think that you're skilled enough to screen out creeps like this, but you're probably NOT. Especially if you think you like the person, and are thinking with your emotions. You will most likely get your feelings hurt. For real.
3-Once you get a "reputation," there's no real chance of undoing it unless you leave and go to an entirely new setting (new school, etc.). And depending upon who's there, a reputation can still follow you. Which is why you need to think long and hard about who you pick for this.
You also need to think through a strategy of how you're going to counteract the boy telling---by maintaining plausible deniability.
This means NEVER allowing yourself to be photographed in a suggestive view. NEVER telling your ANY of your friends that you had sex. This means being fully prepared to lie, and say that the boy is a liar AND gay. [I know that all of this is dirty pool, but hey, let's get real.]
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello Khadija:
I've been reading your blog for a couple of weeks now, and I enjoy it very much.
I wish I knew Black women who think like you and Evia when I was younger.
I'm looking forward to posting here in the future. Peace!
Tee
Wow Evia, PVW, and Enlightened.
Evia, I knew that it wasn't right, but thank you for pointing out that men like that are damaged.
Enlightened, I had a feeling it was common, but I didn't know it was so common that men talk about their plans to do this among other men.
PVW, I definitely had no clue about the dark side of the patriarchy. I am feeling so upset. I knew it wasn't right- I thought they were being backward jerks. I had no idea that the plan was to control and destroy. So is the goal to bring the woman down or is it to profit from her success or success potential?
Admittedly, reading Evia's blog has helped me to rethink my position on marriage a bit. I always felt that I could do without it while having a happy dating life instead. In fact, I always made it clear to "recent guys" that marriage wasn't something I was interested in. Guess what, relationships never progressed to anything meaningful.
In recent weeks, I've developed a desire for marriage and I realize how it might benefit me. I mean, if I adore male companionship so much, why not marry a guy?
For most of my life I've been race open when it came to men so I have no emotional barriers to overcome in that department.
RE birth control
I have had probably more sex than I should have and I have never been pregnant. I agree with Khadija in that woman who don't want to be pregnant will do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn't happen.
I was one of the ones whose mother forced me to be placed on birth control when I was in high school and she made me use it. It was an upsetting time because I had always been given the functional information about sex, but none of the emotional.
Unfortunately I had side effects and ended up taking 7 different kinds and now I am not taking them anymore, but I also never relied on birth control pills alone.
I always used condoms and sometimes other items in conjunction. I had a male teacher/mentor/surrogate father who played the what if game concerning sex with me and after that convo I not only demanded condom use, but I would always check to make sure the guy was wearing it and that it was placed on properly so it wouldn't come off during - if I didn't put it on myself- which I often did and I would be the one to remove and dispose bc men can be sneaky.
I also used to check him out. I have my issues about sex and lights, but I would look for lumps, bumps, growths, blisters, nodules, and monitor for odd discharges in color and amount. I would also do a sniff test. I mean you kinda down there anyway and it is going to be in your body. If things weren't too clean or looked/smelled wrong - it was a no- go.
This is another reason I don't see how women can freely have unprotected sex. I think some men have issues with getting a good wipe and I was surprised at how many men who looked clean in presentation, but whose love bags upon closer inspection were like smelling deeply aged wisconsin. Or the many men who had volunteered to grow cottage cheese/yogurt cultures underneath certain areas. I am thinking if this dude is a walking bacteria factory - I know something else is going on. No- go. I inspect all packages.
The killing part for me is that this stuff is free or often low cost. When I was in HS there were places you could get condoms without questions or anyone's permission.
Later I learned that there were some health centers that would allow women to be tested, examined at reduced costs and allow them to get birth control for free. They could just pick the pills up after the initial intake.
Although I am celibate I still have an unopened box of condoms and contraceptive film lying around.
If i were to have sex again I would definitely look into the female condom. Although its pricey and kind of unattractive, I like the fact that it not only protects you internally, but externally as well. That would greatly reduce my concern over skin contact diseases like (herpes,genital warts) etc..
RE: Outersex
You know this reminds me of Dr Elders and her getting fired over wanting to encourage masturbation for teens.
Which I still think is a good idea (especially for girls/women) in addition to presenting other alternatives to intercourse. I think masturbation is empowering for women.
I know it will sound so cliche, but I did learn a lot about my body through masturbation and nearly every BM that I have ever met has
1. denied doing it themselves/averse to talking about it
2. gotten enraged at me and wanted me to stop
The reasons for 2 were that I was conditioning myself to something abnormal and that I had no need for a man and they couldn't please me.
When in reality there was nothing farther from the truth. I actually had learned more about exactly where, how much pressure etc and none of these things are things that men are physically unable to do, it is just as you mentioned Khadija, I was choosing men who were immature and unwilling.
I used to email Dr. Dodson who is kinda different, but she has a lot of good info I think about women loving and taking care of themselves sexually. I have gotten all her books as an adult (no DVDs yet) and most of her product recommendations.
She has a genital art gallery dedicated to women bc 40 years after she began she still gets letters from women who hate their genitals/think they are unattractive/wonder if they are normal. And it doesn't help that the current image of an attractive vagina is something that most women were when they were twelve and can't achieve without surgery.
The bottom line is that I can be a 2 minute sista thanks to Dr. Dodson! Sometimes a 30 sec sista! I had no idea that my body could do that bc usually I was so far far far far away from anything pleasurable when it came to sex - even with myself.
At any rate, I was also one of the ones who didn't consider oral, anal, hand, to be sex. :)
I think that these should be promoted as alternatives as well with the exception of anal sex. I feel that with the current HIV climate anal is too dangerous even with protection. I think anal can be on par with, if not more dangerous than, vaginal because it is too easy to tear the lining of the rectum (even microscopically) in spite of having people who are knowledgeable and comfortable.
Add misinformed, unconcerned, nervous, or inexperienced to the mix and you can have a disaster.
Via masturbation I have become a 2 minute sista and I never thought that would happen - ever. I th
Khadija said:
Earlier generations of women were more likely to "keep their legs closed before marriage," but their mouths, hands and rear ends were frequently open. [I knew several of these "every sexual act except vaginal intercourse 'virgins'" in high school and college. They chose to think of themselves as virgins.]
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I knew white women in college who did that exact same thing!
I thought these were just delusional women I went to school with! I remember thinking "What the heck kind of logic is that?!" But there are parents who encourage their daughters to engage in "outercourse" because "sex is inevitable and I'd just prefer she not get pregnant"?
So dag, what about STD's?
WOW. LOL! I'm surprised that this is more widespread than I thought.
Hello there, Tee!
Thank you for your kind words about the blog. I truly appreciate it. Welcome aboard!
___________________
Hello there, Aphrodite!
You said, "I was one of the ones whose mother forced me to be placed on birth control when I was in high school and she made me use it. It was an upsetting time because I had always been given the functional information about sex, but none of the emotional."
I've seen this repeatedly with the women who simply sign their daughters up for birth control. It seems to me that if more Black mothers (because that's who does the parenting in the AA collective) talked at length and in great detail about the emotional aspects and dangers of early sex, fewer Black girls/young women would be having early sex.
Also, few Black girls/young women would be involved in the public degredation that you described of modern club/party behavior. This entire issue boils down to SELF-RESPECT. If you value yourself, you're not going to be pushed into doing things you're not emotionally ready to do. If you value yourself, you're going to plan for all the permutations of what might happen. If you value yourself, you're going to use your brain!
___________________
Hello there, Evia!
I debated for quite some time whether or not to put up a button that would lead directly to the "Crown" essay. After 3 months of contemplation, as you see, I decided to put it up there.
So many BW have been wounded to their very core behind all of this. On top of that, we tend to lie about the TRUE dynamics of this situation. We pretend that we're celebrating "all of who we are," and our "internal rainbow," and all sorts of bull****.
Meanwhile, all we're doing is reinforcing the same, old White supremacy:
"If your're White, you're alright.
If you're yellow, you're mellow.
If you're brown, stick around.
If you're Black, get back."
Because we lie about the true dynamics of what's going on, we urge wounded BW to pretend that everything is a-okay with us encouraging/requiring each other to fawn over the "biracials," biculturals, multiculturals, "Cablanasians," etc.
Yes, this dynamic is driven by Negro males. However, we've also got legions of semi-internal enemies preying on BW's spirits that also need to be purged from among us: Heifers like KIMORA LEE SIMMONS, etc. I'm not going to ignore the damage that is being done by creatures like Kimora Lee Simmons. BW need to warned away from these creatures, as well as self-hating Negroes.
I've been mostly among Black people for most of my life. I've seen UP CLOSE the GREAT damage that the "biracials," biculturals, etc. have done to BW's spirits in particular. These "Don't call me Black" creatures are another significant part of why most AA women are wounded and broken.
I know that some of us just loooove these Kimora Lee-type "biracial" creatures, and want to protect them at BW's expense. [Evia, I'm not saying that you fall into this category.]
I disagree with that. I don't have any obligation to protect creatures that are helping to break BW's spirits. Whoever they might be. I feel that there needs to be at least ONE safe place where BW are not having the love for, and fawning over, these creatures shoved down our throats. A safe place where BLACK women's interests are the ONLY consideration!
I say that BW must purge ALL of the demons who are denigrating them from their lives: Self-hating Negroes AND the "biracial," "bicultural," "multicultural," "Cablanasian," "Don't call me Black" demons!
There is NO other way. It is impossible to have a healthy spirit among demons (of any sort) who are attacking your self-worth and spirit.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hmmmm...I have a question:
Evia and some other bloggers regularly encourage black women to expand our dating horizons and "marry out" because the pool of quality black men is low to nonexistant. Evia even said in this very blog "I don't agree with the notion of "black love" anymore, so I urge bw of a similar mind to just walk away and find someone else to love."
However, I see that Khadija has a serious problem with biracials/multiracials claiming the crowns of black women. Khadija has also said that although she could care less about the DBRs, Ikes and Ikettes of the world, she still values and believes in racial pride (and I feel the exact same way).
How do we reconcile these two thought processes? Can they be reconciled? How do we encourage more black women to marry out and possibly giving birth to lots of biracial children, but ensure that these children still have a healthy self image and respect for black people so that they WON'T try to steal their crowns?
How would a biracial child interpret Evia's views, especially since children take a lot of things literally and at face value? If a biracial child has a parent who doesn't believe there is no such thing as black love and that quality black people are an endangered species (LOL), how will they in turn treat the black children in their families, at school, at church, etc.?
Evia or Khadija, if I am misinterpreting what you're saying, PLEASE correct me!
Aphrodite:
PVW, I definitely had no clue about the dark side of the patriarchy. I am feeling so upset. I knew it wasn't right- I thought they were being backward jerks. I had no idea that the plan was to control and destroy. So is the goal to bring the woman down or is it to profit from her success or success potential?
My reply:
If a man is operating from a perspective within this "dark side" of patriarchy, it can entail all of those things.
Never forget that women who do not have families have traditionally been seen as oddities, because they are not fulfilling the roles society expects them to fulfill, that of being a wife and mother.
Harnessing women with children has always been an effective means of tying women down and limiting their activities outside the home. It has always been a means too, of keeping women tied to the men with whom they raise families.
So this can destroy a woman's potential, ie., if she can't pursue interests outside the home, or if she can't pursue those outside interests while she is inside the home, she loses out.
What that means then is that men are free to pursue those goals outside the home, and women's participation is limited.
What else is behind those types of arguments that women used to hear more often in earlier periods, for example, when women first began pursuing non-traditional careers, that they are taking jobs away from men, or that instead of being in the workforce, they should be at home with their children?
And this sort of attitude is not rare today, in that black women can be told the same thing, that their success is built upon taking opportunities away from black men, going back to the old argument that black women suffer less from racism.
So if a man thinks a black woman's success is an affront, might he not take pleasure in bringing her "down to earth" by making her pregnant, so that she can't "fly so high"? How else to ensure that he has access to her and her life by having a child by her?
On the other hand, access to abortion can equalize the playing field. When women are forced into reproduction against their will, they don't have to be victims of their reproductive capacities.
Hello there, Enlightened!
You asked, "How do we reconcile these two thought processes? Can they be reconciled? How do we encourage more black women to marry out and possibly giving birth to lots of biracial children, but ensure that these children still have a healthy self image and respect for black people so that they WON'T try to steal their crowns?"
Hmmm...in my view, there are a lot of assumptions underlying this question. Including ones that I think don't apply. I'm happy this came up, because this was part of the point of discussing dissensus.
1-Who ever said that our differing views needed to be reconciled in the first place? Again, there's no need to be in lockstep with each other as long as we agree on overall goals and CORE values: Abundant, fulfilling lives for BW and girls.
2-I'm not so sure that it's a matter of actually differing thought processes (not that this would be a bad thing if it was), as different points of emphasis.
Evia can correct me if I'm wrong, but she seems more concerned about the spectre of female in-fighting than I am. Yes, most of our "artillery fire" should be directed at the Negro males who are destroying BW. I feel that these female demons (be they Ikettes, or Kimora Lee types, etc.) need to be blasted as well.
I probably also view these Black-hating Kimora Lee Simmons, Tiger Woods, "exotic"/"mixed" etc. creatures as more of a threat to Black self-esteem than other bloggers do. Other bloggers have probably had more positive interactions with these creatures than I have.
I feel the way I do because I grew up in, and spent most of my adult life in, all-Black settings. I've seen up close and personal the damage that these creatures have done to dark-skinned Black girls' and women's spirits.
Even though I'm light-skinned, the SOUL-KILLING things that I saw these self-proclaimed "Don't call me Black" creatures do to dark-skinned girls 30 years ago when I started high school have been BURNED into my consciousness.
This memory is ever-renewed and ever-fresh because these creatures are STILL doing these sorts of things. They are able to do these things because most BW LET them! I'm sounding the alarm that we've got to STOP letting these demons break our spirits. I also want more BW to get their "fighting spirit" back. Part of that process is to identify ALL of the people who are screwing you over.
I also watched these "Don't call me Black, except when I want to reap the benefits of Black scholarships, etc." creatures steal scholarship money raised by working class BLACK people that was supposed to go to BLACK students when I was in college and law school.
Black people allowed these thieves to steal this money because many of us are desperate to love and hug the self-proclaimed "biracials." We consistently allow these creatures to simultaneously reap the benefits of Black folks' support while keeping us at arms' length.
We NEVER police this or require self-proclaimed non-Blacks to leave Black folks' resources alone. I believe that the reason why we do this is because most of us are confused about the fact that these sorts of thieves are ENEMIES. I haven't forgotten about that either.
Another reason why I won't ignore the damage done by the "Don't call me Black" crew is because it has gotten worse over the past 30 years! The anti-Black colorism among AAs has ESCALATED since I started high school. We didn't have Negroes like Ne-Yo, Yung Berg, Wesley Snipes, etc. OPENLY stating their hatred of BW (and especially dark-skinned BW) before.
3-From my point of view, the crown-stealing behavior is NOT the result of a Black person being half-White or half-Other. It's the result of the Black parent fostering a self-identity of being so-called "biracial" and anything BUT Black.
It's the result of the (usually self-hating) Black parent glorying in having a less-Black child. It's the result of the Black parent raising the child to desperately claim "anything BUT Black" status.
For an example of this sort of openly self-hating madness, read Tariq Nelson's essay "The New Passing." [It's almost guaranteed to turn any self-respecting Black person's stomach.] You can google to find the link.
All of this is why I feel that it's extremely naive for any self-respecting Black person to preach in support of so-called biracialism. Black people who do that are unwittingly supporting White supremacy. And by doing so, unwittingly helping to KEEP BW's spirits broken.
We are NOT a blank slate. We can't pretend that all the self-hatred that is part of our damaged cultural heritage (paper bag test, the rhyme I mentioned above, the doll test, etc.) didn't happen. I believe that it's important to "first, do no harm" in our "preaching." This means that we have to factor in the patients' pre-existing wounds. This colorism is a HUGE pre-existing wound.
4-Like I said earlier, I see it as mostly differing points of emphasis based on different life experiences.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"So if a man thinks a black woman's success is an affront, might he not take pleasure in bringing her "down to earth" by making her pregnant, so that she can't "fly so high"? How else to ensure that he has access to her and her life by having a child by her?"
This is really, really sick, really sick.
Duly noted, Khadija!
I actually thought "well maybe they don't have to be reconciled..."
AFTER I posted my comment. LOL!
Thanks!
First of all, I'd like to give Evia two thumbs WAY up for her IMO accurate and blatantly honest analysis of the situation concerning this crown business.
"White men, for ex. are more likely to regard most bw as being on the same playing field when it comes to complexion and hair, except for certain situations--which are not usually in the romantic realm. From what I've experienced, observed, read, heard, and discussed with wm, the vast majority of wm are not particularly interested in light-bright bw with straight hair or biracial/multicultural women and if these men are, it's not because of their light skin and hair. "
Too many BW are waiting around - and drying up -honestly expecting to one day be crowned by NON Princes/Kings.
It will NEVER happen. In order for a BW to love and live well, she first must direct her attention and thoughts ONLY towards NON colorist non damaged marriage minded men in the GLOBAL village who are CAPABLE of putting HER - a black woman - on the pedestal. Capable of treating her like a Princess/Queen.
MOST BM these days are simply incapable - because of irreversible self-inflicted/self-generating damage - of treating your average BW the way they wish to be and deserve to be treated.
So... BW are going to have stop being masochist first before their lives significantly change for the better.
My take concerning this racial identity issue is, if a BW has serious (and perhaps intractable) feelings towards the importance of her child having a black only self-identity - as opposed to a half-black/biracial/multi-ethnic one which is a very REAL possibility that is growing daily as the number of people of direct mixed heritage continues to expand - IMO it's preferable that she adopt one of the THOUSANDS of African-American or African children already available for adoption. These children need good reliable loving homes and are often the last ones to be adopted if at all.
Just think, there are all of these unmarried BW, some whom for various reasons most likely won't be involved in any relationship leading towards marriage (be it intra or interracial) who still have the desire to parent a child or children.
Instead of having OOW black children, they could simply adopt the ones already here who need good homes.
I know some are already doing this and God bless them.
A healthy marriage - interracial or not - doesn't consist of one person but TWO. Therefore you're naturally going to have two opinions regarding child-rearing and a father has JUST as much right to put his input in as the mother.
That's why these important issues regarding the self-identity of ones future children must be discussed. Preferably long before children even enter the seen.
BW and WM (and other non BM) need to be on THE SAME PAGE - WHATEVER that page is whether it's biracial/black/multi-ethnic, etc... regarding the issue of identity as it pertains to THEIR future children.
Not the "black communities", or the "white communities", or the "hispanic communities" or the "asian communities" , or the "biracial communities" or any other communities.
THEIR children.
Because these days when it comes down to it, on an individual level, the intentional communities we've made ON OUR OWN - not the ones we were born into - are the ONLY ones we can truly rely on in the end.
Now... if you've been blessed to be born into a large extended family where normalcy is the norm, that's great and your lucky.
BUT, you DON'T have to rely on luck. You can MAKE luck happen by choosing your friends/associates/husband etc... your personal community WISELY.
It's VITALLY important that one vets ALL people they allow in ones life. FORGET color/"race"/nationality and concentrate ONLY on CHARACTER.
When it comes to romantic relationships and non, QUALITY QUALITY QUALITY.
If this topic of identity concerning our children is not openly discussed and dealt with as early possible, there is bound to be dissapointment/anger/hurt on one side or the other.
Which can end a marriage AND harm the innocent children.
This all needs to be discussed AHEAD of time, because there are just as many men and women regardless of "race" who are adamant about their biracial children having a biracial self-identity as there are those who prefer their children claim only one side.
Life would be so much easier if like minded folks could stick together on the relationship front.
And they can IF EVERYTHING is put out there on the table. People need to know as soon as possible in a relationship where each other are coming from.
Then, if one party discovers a mindset/ideology they simply can't accept - for whatever reason - they can separate amicably. BEFORE innocent beautiful children are brought into the situation.
In closing I will say, that IMO it would be a parents great loss to let something like a man made racial/ethnic identity/label come between them and their flesh and blood.
I'm not accusing anyone here of saying/supporting such a thing, but I have heard of cases where a parent and child had serious conflict regarding this issue.
Sometimes people need to simply agree to disagree without anger and resentment and move on. I think this is especially important when it comes to something important like families.
Regarding the Essay at Tariq's house, isn't what he proposed the inevitable? In my opinion, there isn't much we can do about it, except sit back and watch it take place.
Has the goal of passing for anything other than black ever changed?
If dark-skinned black woman are already famous for worshipping bi-racial women, and their children, I am convinced as soon as these women begin widening their dating pool to include non-black men, and have children, they will more likely swoon over their own children for the same reasons.
Many people do NOT say this aloud, but most AA (and people in other countries) believes having "black" or "African" features and kinky hair is ugly and unattractive. It is not a look that was ever "in", nor will be ever be "in". Not just to our black men but to our black women as well.
Not even dark skinned people like themselves very much; this includes dark-skinned women married to non-black men. In order to raise a child that hates being black, you could not truly loved your skin color. In my mind, it just would not have happened. We are our children’s very first teacher. And it is NOT solely because the black community is in the shape that it is currently in, but also because "being" black with coarse hair is considered a horrible combination- sad, but true.
"Part of that process is to identify ALL of the people who are screwing you over."
On a different note, I took this advice when it was given during a different issue, and boy, what I discovered is, because I failed to establish boundaries from the start of the relationship, I had to cut off people that I originally had no intention.
Very few people want to (as Evia mentioned before) renegotiate their relationships. People expect that you never to change for the better, I guess.
The only people that were alright with me establishing boundaries where there were none before, was my mother-in-law and my best friend.
Evia even said in this very blog "I don't agree with the notion of "black love" anymore, so I urge bw of a similar mind to just walk away and find someone else to love."
However, I see that Khadija has a serious problem with biracials/multiracials claiming the crowns of black women. Khadija has also said that although she could care less about the DBRs, Ikes and Ikettes of the world, she still values and believes in racial pride (and I feel the exact same way).
How do we reconcile these two thought processes? Can they be reconciled? How do we encourage more black women to marry out and possibly giving birth to lots of biracial children, but ensure that these children still have a healthy self image and respect for black people so that they WON'T try to steal their crowns?
Nuances, nuances. Life is a matter of shades of gray--rarely black and white.
IMO, 'black love' is not TOTALLY and irreversibly dead. That would be an absolute and there are very few absolutes. There's always a chance. LOL! After all, I loved my first husband and he loved me. That was/is 'black love,' some would say. We will always love each other, though our relationship has changed to friendship. So that's black love or love between 2 people who have been labelled as "black." I would imagine that there are lots of "black" individuals like us who love each other.
But given the scarcity of 'black love,' and given the shortness of life, I would NEVER encourage my daughter to wait for a loving, lovable, suitable and compatible Quality bm.
Also, I have great "racial" pride or to be more precise: pride in my heritage. I always draw on that pride every day I live. That pride makes me feel so FULL.
The issue re 'black love,' is that, from my standpoint, it's not realistically feasible for the masses of AA women because there apparently aren't nearly ENOUGH loving and lovable Quality ***African American*** males who are drawn to a dark-skinned woman with "broad" features and nappy hair and lots of AA women look like that or have a variation of that phenotype. Now, I could be wrong, but it appears to me that this is the actual problem.
At the same time, so many AA women are fixated on these same bm who obviously consider them to be useable objects. We all know the history of how this has come about, but we still have this situation in the present. A bw cannot marry history and the masses of these women haven't been presented with any other option to secure a loving and lovable mate, prior to the last few years. This puts them and their children in the position to be victimized over and over by these males who don't love or even like them, in many instances.
I don't have nearly as much of an issue with colorstruck bw re this issue because I'm convinced that MOST of it is male-driven. In other words, if the bulk of AA males were to start pursuing the darker, broader featured type of bw today, I believe that in a very short time, bw with those looks would start loving their looks and those of other women who look like her because women naturally want to appeal to men. I know it's futile, in a way, but this is why I go for the jugular with these bm who racially discriminate against women of that type--because I see them as being the MAJOR culprit.
However, I know that virtually nothing is going to stop them from salivating over lighter-brighter women and at the darker woman's expense. The most we may be able to do is to stop the darker women from propping up, defending, and protecting bm like that. And I'd be happy if we could just stop that. I don't really even care whether bm prefer lighter-whiter women and only those women; I just don't want them to get a cent or an ounce of any type of emotional or other support or protection from darker women. I don't blame those lighter white women. Maybe this is because I've never experienced them doing anything that idolizing bm and bw didn't willingly enable them to do.
It is these lighter-brighter woman idolizers who put them on a pedestal. So of course the lighter woman is going to feel like "the Prize." People tend to behave the way they're treated. So I actually can't fault those women for claiming and using privileges that these males are pouring on them. One thing I've noticed about privileges is that if you're the recipient of them, sometimes you cannot avoid using them. I see that with Darren. As a wm, he receives privileges all the time--whether he wants them or not. Many times, he's not even aware he's getting the privilege because he doesn't know that he's getting a privilege that others don't get.
When I was younger, I didn't know I was getting privileges for the little bit of light in my brown skin and my family's name in that rural part of the south until I heard some of the experiences of darker women and from others in our area who didn't get those perks. My family didn't have much, but we had more educated people and therefore more intangible resources AND tangible ones than most others there.
There were plenty of very light skinned black girls where I grew up. But their light skin didn't help them much or only briefly. They were chased down and used. I think that may have made me realize at a young age that it doesn't matter what cards you get, it how you play your cards that count.
But here's another area to read the research. How do males develop their preferences in women's looks? I know some people think that if LOTS of black mothers were to drill into their sons to love chocolate, nappy-haired women, then AA males would prefer those women, but I disagree. I believe that males develop their preferences in this regard by watching other males. Young males, in particular, want to imitate and be accepted by other males who they think are cool or the Alpha males and get a slap on the back for choosing a "foine" woman. They care what their male peers think about this--NOT females. I know that AA women are supposed to be superwomen, but I don't believe that they can shape a male child's sexual preferences.
I believe that my sons will regard women who look like me as desirable BECAUSE they see how their father regards me and TREATS me like a prize. I really don't believe at all that they will rule out women who look like me.
Naturally Khadija and my views probably don't even come close in certain areas and this is to be expected. We are different people. Our different views are informed by our different life experiences. It amazes me that so many AAs think that ALL of us should think alike about every issue. We can be likeminded or similarly minded and have similar values and shared goals without having identical views across the board.
A lot about this comes down to ***different life experiences.*** I haven't lived among these self-hating black folks. I'm so BLESSED! But I'm aware of the self-hate because I see manifestations of it whenever I turn on the TV or go to the bc near me, read a magazine, come online, etc. Thankfully, I can just avoid it most of the time.
RE: crown-snatching, I believe that many people will snatch your crown or ***try*** to do so, if you allow it. I've had people of all types to try to make those moves on me, but I quickly let them know there'd be heck to pay and they quickly backed off. If you let people know that the price is too high for them, they'll back off. So I believe that even if the biracials, multiculturals, etc. could be neutralized, there would be others who would quickly replace them. IMO, the solution is to, in a sense, GLUE the crown to the bw's head. Then it won't matter WHO tries to snatch it off. She'll be ready and they won't succeed. If started early enough, LOTS of little black girls can be taught to defend their crowns and/or be immune to a lot of crown snatching behavior. Also, grown bw can decide not to associate with crownsnatchers and their enablers. There are lots of people in the world who don't operate on that level.
I honestly don't think we will make a dent in stopping the attempted crown snatchings since in my view, we lack the ability to penalize people and don't support each other when some try to fight back. One thing I do know for sure is that once you let people know that you absolutely won't tolerate them snatching your crown, they'll leave you alone and go after a softer target. You've got to be WILLING to penalize them though.
Nobody is ever going to get my crown. They may think they got it, but I know better.
AA women are TOO TIMID! It's strange to me that so many people think that AA women are so aggressive. In everyday life, crown snatchers wouldn't bother truly aggressive women because they'd be stopped in their tracks--not by loudness and cursing, but by ACTIONS.
According to my belief system, there's a malevolent force out there that is VERY opportunistic and takes the form of crown snatchers and other predators. It lays in wait. Whenever you give it an opening, it will spring at you.I see many AA women leaving themselves wide open to be done in by these crown snatchers and other predators.
Re: biracial children who choose to be "anything but black," they LEARN that from somewhere--either from parents or others or both. It's not automatic. And "full blooded black" AAs who lack racial pride also pass on that "anything but black" mindset to their children too. If this latter group had racial pride, they could easily brush off the biracials and all of the other crownsnatchers. As long as people lack racial pride, I believe that malevolent force is going to use every opportunity to devour them. So since AA women can't change the way bm think, this is why I urge them to FLEE.
Also, when you live among whites with a biracial child, you don't get any points from them for that because to them, your child is still black. Unless the biracial child is white skinned and can pass for white, they're still not seen as white. As Darren has frequently said, "Most whites see only 2 groups of people in the world: white people and 'others.'"
Hello there, Evia!
You said, "Naturally Khadija and my views probably don't even come close in certain areas and this is to be expected. We are different people. Our different views are informed by our different life experiences. It amazes me that so many AAs think that ALL of us should think alike about every issue. We can be likeminded or similarly minded and have similar values and shared goals without having identical views across the board."
Exactly! This was the whole point of this post. Likeminded and with similar values (enough to cooperate on shared goals) does NOT equal identical. I'm really hoping to help put a dent in the notion that folks have to be in lockstep to work together.
And, in my view, it's better for our budding movement this way. BW who might not respond to my way of stating the "Run for your life!" message might respond to your way of stating this message; and vice versa.
Our efforts are guaranteed to miss certain parts of our target audience if we're all saying the same thing the exact same way, and with the exact same points of emphasis.
You said, "A lot about this comes down to ***different life experiences.*** I haven't lived among these self-hating black folks. I'm so BLESSED!"
Before I ran for my life around 5 years ago, this was the only setting that I was intimately familiar with (the mostly self-hating, all-Black social milieu). This is why I tend to have a hair-trigger response to anything that smacks of (or supports) this self-hatred. I refuse to do anything that in any way supports that brand of evil.
You said, "IMO, the solution is to, in a sense, GLUE the crown to the bw's head. Then it won't matter WHO tries to snatch it off. She'll be ready and they won't succeed. If started early enough, LOTS of little black girls can be taught to defend their crowns and/or be immune to a lot of crown snatching behavior. Also, grown bw can decide not to associate with crownsnatchers and their enablers."
That's my point. I feel that the situation is very similar to what Halima said in the "Internet Ike Turner" conversation. She explained that many BW misinterpret the Ike's venom and bashing as somehow being BM trying to work through these issues with BW. Which is why they earnestly continue to interact with these Ikes.
My concern for BW is that we're being similarly encouraged to misinterpret crown snatching as other things: "celebrating all of who we are," yaddda, yadda, yadda.
The same way BW need to recognize the IITs' attacks as being attacks is the same way BW need to recognize attempted crownsnatching as crownsnatching. And STOP interacting with crownsnatchers.
BW also need to get their "fighting spirit" back to cement their crowns on their heads, instead of passively sitting around on the ground. So many BW have had their spirits stomped, and they're dazed.
BW need to recognize that they were hit in the head by self-hating Negroes (and various other predators--including crownsnatchers), instead of thinking that they just happen to be down on the ground because they were taking a nap.
Becoming "Flawless" women is a way of fighting back! Taking charge of our health is a way of fighting back! Seeking abundant life is a way of fighting back!
You said, "I honestly don't think we will make a dent in stopping the attempted crown snatchings since in my view, we lack the ability to penalize people and don't support each other when some try to fight back."
I agree. I just want more BW to realize that their crowns were stolen. I believe that most BW are currently confused abot this. They don't know that they even had a crown! They'll have to get them back on their own (by becoming "Flawless," etc.)
You said, "According to my belief system, there's a malevolent force out there that is VERY opportunistic and takes the form of crown snatchers and other predators. It lays in wait. Whenever you give it an opening, it will spring at you.I see many AA women leaving themselves wide open to be done in by these crown snatchers and other predators."
I agree. Again, BW need to get their fighting spirits back. Part of that process is for them to understand that they are in a fight. A lot of them don't seem to realize that.
You said, "Re: biracial children who choose to be "anything but black," they LEARN that from somewhere--either from parents or others or both. It's not automatic. And "full blooded black" AAs who lack racial pride also pass on that "anything but black" mindset to their children too. If this latter group had racial pride, they could easily brush off the biracials and all of the other crownsnatchers. As long as people lack racial pride, I believe that malevolent force is going to use every opportunity to devour them. So since AA women can't change the way bm think, this is why I urge them to FLEE."
I agree. Black people's general mass self-hatred is what makes the crownsnatching possible in the first place.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Evia said...
"Naturally Khadija and my views probably don't even come close in certain areas and this is to be expected. We are different people. Our different views are informed by our different life experiences. It amazes me that so many AAs think that ALL of us should think alike about every issue. We can be likeminded or similarly minded and have similar values and shared goals without having identical views across the board."
Khadija said...
"Exactly! This was the whole point of this post. Likeminded and with similar values (enough to cooperate on shared goals) does NOT equal identical. I'm really hoping to help put a dent in the notion that folks have to be in lockstep to work together."
These points are very important and I thank both of you for reiterating them.
They can't be stated enough.
All of us who love, support, and have BW and BW's children (regardless of their genetic make-up) best interests in mind, should never forget these points.
The goal (Black women's and girls empowerment) is the same. And that's what's important. We don't all have to think alike or agree on every single issue.
It's best to have a variety of different voices out there preaching the same empowerment message coming from different angles because one never knows just which statement/POV is going to ring a bell in some sistas head and cause her to act in a positive pro-active manner on her own behalf.
For the same reason it's important to have IR married/partnered WOC depicted with a wide variety of phenotypes, it's also important for a wide variety of voices to be heard.
For identification purposes. When audience members see and/or hear BW that they can personally identify with based on looks and/or POV living and loving well, thriving, I would assume it would make it easier for them to envision themselves in positive circumstances.
In order to act one first must have hope. And that's what these various BW empowerment blogs/websites are doing.
The goal is the same and that's what's important.
Readers can take - and hopefully USE in real life situations (and SHARE what they've gained from the knowledge being expressed here with other BW they care about) what makes sense to them and trash the rest.
Peace and blessings to all.
BW also need to get their "fighting spirit" back to cement their crowns on their heads, instead of passively sitting around on the ground. So many BW have had their spirits stomped, and they're dazed.
Yes Khadija the fight has been kicked out of many bw. I notice this particularly with how young black girls have learnt to accept their lighter skin freinds as being out in front of them.
I watch them in my area. They dont question it, they dont remove themselves from the situation of constant hurt and demoralization to themselves as a result of black men running around these women, they never raise a voice against it, rather they befreind and cling to these women in the midst of all that mess and slide themselves into the appropraite role determined by black worship of light ie facilitating their lighter freinds better experinces.
In a way I blame us the big sisters for allowing this now out of control state of affairs. I believe that when they looked to us for a response to the madness, they just saw stoic-faced older sisters either trying to pretend nothing was amiss or getting along with the situation, so they themselves learnt to get along with how things are.
When I started out blogging and I broached the subject, I got luke warm reaction from the darker bw. Many came back with variants of the refrian, 'just love yourself' and all that mumbo jumbo mantra that bw love to trot out as evidence that they are 'so together'.
I think it was rev lisa who menioned about bw's contant need to potray 'fabulosity'. She is right about that one. Black women in their need to portray how fabulous and all together they are at all time, refuse to address certain issues among themselves, to their own detriment.
Dont forget that the threat of being branded jealous of other women strikes mortal fear in the hearts o many bw, that they would rather retreat to the facade of 'fabulousness'.
Indeed, one thing I have observed about bw is that they can be easily made to abandon a rigteous cause just because of the threat of being labelled, particularly labelled jealous of other women, but it could be lesbian, feminist and a whole host of other names which others employ as a tool to control them. This is one of the reasons why you hear them parroting variants of the line, 'celebrating the rainbow'.
They just have to prove that they are not envious (thats the most important thing to them) and they are above 'all that', so they stiffle their real hurt and just keep going.
Hello there, Halima!
You said, "Yes Khadija the fight has been kicked out of many bw. I notice this particularly with how young black girls have learnt to accept their lighter skin freinds as being out in front of them. "
Yes, I'm appalled at how much BW's and Black girls' quality of life has deteriorated just since I graduated from high school. It's shocking. It's shocking to see that BW's mass quality of life is continuing to plummet. And we now have a couple of generations of BW who don't know anything EXCEPT being OPENLY devalued in favor of the light-skinned and the "biracials," etc.
You said, "In a way I blame us the big sisters for allowing this now out of control state of affairs. I believe that when they looked to us for a response to the madness, they just saw stoic-faced older sisters either trying to pretend nothing was amiss or getting along with the situation, so they themselves learnt to get along with how things are."
Yes, BW's mass acceptance of being OPENLY devalued (in favor of the light-skinned and the "biracials") picked up steam on our watch.
You said, "I think it was rev lisa who menioned about bw's contant need to potray 'fabulosity'. She is right about that one. Black women in their need to portray how fabulous and all together they are at all time, refuse to address certain issues among themselves, to their own detriment."
Yes, it's VERY difficult to mobilize BW to address issues that are having a negative impact on US (as opposed to mobilizing BW around other people's problems).
You said, "Indeed, one thing I have observed about bw is that they can be easily made to abandon a rigteous cause just because of the threat of being labelled, particularly labelled jealous of other women, but it could be lesbian, feminist and a whole host of other names which others employ as a tool to control them. This is one of the reasons why you hear them parroting variants of the line, 'celebrating the rainbow'."
It's disgusting to watch BW enforce this silence among ourselves.
This is why awhile back, I had to vehemently disagree with a reader who trotted out the notion to the effect that "When you have a man who looooves you, and your children, you don't have time to worry about how others are identifying themselves racially. You're too busy thinking about delightful things to do."
[This isn't a direct quote, but it's the gist of what this individual said to try to silence outcry.]
Bull****. And shame on anybody for using that type of crap to silence other BW from speaking out about oppression.
As I told her, when the entertainment industry ENFORCES a regime of only those Black entertainers who are half-White or appear to be half-White can find work in that industry, then it affects BLACK women and BLACK children. Racist and colorist oppression affect BW and BLACK children whether or not we are deliriously happy in our personal lives.
[For readers who are unfamiliar with my "rant" (LOL!) about that particular issue: I often talk about how a HUGELY disproportionate percentage of Black entertainers are literally White women's children: The list is endless, but I'll name a few. Halle Berry. Shemar Moore. Vin Diesel. Alicia Keys.
OR they look like they are White women's children, such as Vanessa Williams.
I've also talked about how I believe that colorism destroyed Stephanie Mills' career, despite her talent. Even after she gave in to her record company's pressure to have cosmetic surgery and had half her nose chopped off.]
You said, "They just have to prove that they are not envious (thats the most important thing to them) and they are above 'all that', so they stiffle their real hurt and just keep going."
Well, my bottom line is that BW need to become bold about talking about, and resisting, oppression. And STOP worrying about how it looks to their oppressors, or those who enable oppression. We're so timid when it comes to our own interests. That's why we get stomped on.
And the spiritual beatdown will continue unless and until we fight back.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
ITA....This is just a roundabout way of saying "It sux to be you" or "Not my problem, so don't expect me to upset the applecart"...I am suspicious of those who cannot or will not empathize...EX: Even though I have never been a victim of a burglary, however we can still know that it's a crime and demonstrate the proper outrage...
"This is why awhile back, I had to vehemently disagree with a reader who trotted out the notion to the effect that "When you have a man who looooves you, and your children, you don't have time to worry about how others are identifying themselves racially. You're too busy thinking about delightful things to do."
[This isn't a direct quote, but it's the gist of what this individual said to try to silence outcry.] "
Hello there, CW!
You said, "ITA....This is just a roundabout way of saying "It sux to be you" or "Not my problem, so don't expect me to upset the applecart"...I am suspicious of those who cannot or will not empathize...EX: Even though I have never been a victim of a burglary, however we can still know that it's a crime and demonstrate the proper outrage..."
Yes, indeed. The "it sucks to be y'all" attitude underlying this particular comment was deeply offensive. On several levels. First of all, it's totally unprincipled. I don't wait for an evil to happen to ME personally before I speak out about it.
Second, it reminded my of why so many deeply wounded BW are silent. Part of the reason why I happen to have a loud (and sometimes shrill) voice because I wasn't subjected to the brunt of the oppressive things that go on among Black folks.
I have a REAL father who is a REAL man. I had material comfort. I had countless relatives constantly telling how pretty and smart I was. Once I got older, I've had Negroes around who were drooling over my light skin and long hair.
Since I was blessed with all these self-worth-supporting things, I don't care how it looks when I oppose something that's anti-ME. I don't care if people think I'm "jealous." I don't care what oppressors AND their enablers think about anything. Because I've been blessed, I can emotionally AFFORD not to care.
Most AA women don't have this emotional "luxury." Most of us are hanging on emotionally by a thread. This "it sux to be you" is often the last straw in terms of silencing BW into spiritual, emotional, and sometimes physical DEATH.
NO.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Many came back with variants of the refrian, 'just love yourself' and all that mumbo jumbo mantra that bw love to trot out as evidence that they are 'so together'.
Yes, it's VERY difficult to mobilize BW to address issues that are having a negative impact on US
Halima and Khadija, let's be real. IMO, the MAIN reason why some bw have just decided not to fight back these days is because they don't believe they will get SUPPORT. If people KNOW that they have SUPPORT, they will not bend over and allow anyone to stick it to them.
So yeah, many black girls and bw mouth those little platitudes and don't scream out these days. They suffer in silence because they know that more than likely their screams will fall on deaf ears and they could easily get accused of bringing whatever happened on themselves.
There are off the charts APPALLING things that have happened to bw and black girls in the bc near me, but the women don't complain anymore. They know that no one cares. They're mainly advised to pray, 'suck it up' and keep on moving.
Research has shown that when infants scream and scream and their parents or caretaker doesn't respond, the babies eventually stop crying when they need attention. But they also stop TRUSTING people to be there for them.
Just watch how some of us get attacked online. The usual reaction is for MOST other women to watch to see whether we survive. Then if we don't, folks will say things like, "Oh it's a shame that the trolls (Ikes and Ikettes) drove her away."
Just look at how I and some of the rest of us have been attacked online. (I assure y'all NOBODY bothers me in my offline life. LOL!) Now some of y'all outright and loudly do support me and other controversial bloggers, but I usually get a TON of ***private*** notes of support--from several other bloggers and from the general audience. I GREATLY appreciate all of the support, but if the support were online and we were clearly showing all the
mo%f#s that none of us is going to back down or change our tune one iota, then we would have been much more successful at what we do, and we would have instilled the hope that the fighting spirit is alive and can be effective if bw fight back, as a group, online and offline. Aside from a few individual bw bloggers and those who read and comment on our sites, I don't even see the fighting spirit online. I see a bunch of "kissing up" behavior or silence and silence is or is interpreted as a form of consent. If someone is scared to fight or scared to take decisive action against attackers online, then you KNOW that offline, all you have to say is "Boo!" LOL!
This is why I used to talk about bw supporting each other so much, but that strangely didn't seem to resonate with my readers. That usually means that it's an alien concept to readers or one that makes them uncomfortable. Then when Khadija, very early on, started writing about the lack of close relationships between bw, I was amazed. It wasn't what she said that amazed me. It was the elementary way she had to break it down to her readers as to WHY those relationships were so important!!!!! Support is about the most important, most valuable thing you can give another human being. DUH! It's really a form of LOVE--the most valuable form.
I've always highly valued my relationships with other bw friends even though I don't live near some of them. Also, during my youth, I saw how bw were close down south in that rural area. Bw picked each other up and pulled each other through a LOT. Also, continental African women tend to be VERY close. Girlfriends just naturally treat each other like blood sisters. They pull each other through a lot too. But I've noticed that many AA women these days do tend to be so distant from each other, antagonistic, and JEALOUS.
Jealousy, whether online or offline, is very ugly. But jealousy and lack of trust (fear of others) are the main reasons that many bw don't come together and support each other--online and offline.
Taking this from a civil rights movie I saw, but I have to just say this to bw out there: "When you see a good fight (meaning one that promotes and protects YOUR interests), you MUST jump in it."
Many bw readers see this kind of cowardly behavior online, so they KNOW that they're definitely not going to get support offline.
Whereas I get lots of notes praising me for standing up to the Ikes and Ikettes, I don't normally get notes of praise for sticking up for dark-skinned women. I don't really know why not.
I had to respond to this, Khadija.
Most AA women don't have this emotional "luxury." Most of us are hanging on emotionally by a thread.
I was talking to my sisterfriend the other day--a very bright, wonderful bw who has lived all of her life in the lower economic tier, cut off from many opportunities. She is VERY wise and many things she says really amaze me because I've never viewed life in the way she's been forced to view it. Anyway, there I was going on and on about how bw must plan this and that and have this and that strategy and use this and that tactic and yadda, yadda.
Then she said softly, "You don't understand. Do you realize that most bw are just trying to get through to ***the end of the day?***
That gave me chills, and it shut my mouth. I was speechless and rarely am I speechless. LOL! I just sat there and looked at her and she kept repeating, "They're trying to make it til the end of the day."
She went on to point out that if these women can't envision next week, next month or next year, how can they motivate their children to plan or prepare for their future.
I was just floored because when I talk to my children, I talk to them about my grandchildren and great grandkids whereas she said that many bw are so emotionally dry until they can't even see tomorrow. This really explains why some of them make really bad decisions.
Many of us don't realize all the privileges we've had.
Well, my bottom line is that BW need to become bold about talking about, and resisting, oppression. And STOP worrying about how it looks to their oppressors, or those who enable oppression. We're so timid when it comes to our own interests. That's why we get stomped on.
Just wanted to add that I enjoy the spirit of courageousness that you exhibit Khadija. It is the spirit that bw are going to have to adopt if they want to get out of jail really and truly, and that is the spirit of, 'even if I am the only one to challenge the injustice, I am willing to stand alone'.
I think this 'even if I have to stand alone' spirit is so very important for bw today because a whole lot of us are looking around for a nod, and a green light to proceed, yet given how bw are socialized againt their most basic interests, it is almost essentiall that we do not seek always seek a nod from fellow bw because they are often under this colluding with the status quo spell. as evia said, many will not step forward to defend and cosign designs for their own good. Many follow in the second wave after pioneers have bulldozed through and gotten a measure of general tolerance or endorsement.
in addition, I have long maintained that each generation needs to recognise what spirit is required of it and act accordingly.
Our generation of bw and the one before us should have put on the spirit of real courage to do the internal work that needed to be done to bring back sanity, but guess what we did, we instead believed that the spirit of 'stoicism' was required in the face of black male inflicted evil and value decay, and so we missed it.
If our mothers and older sisters had realised that their fight was one of courage to challenge the black order, we would be in a different place now. The result is that we are having to have a double anointing of courage and boldness.
Of course folks are pulling out the same arsenal they used to silence our mothers and get them out of doing the necessary work they should have done to put us in good stead. but some of us are impervious to all those tricks of name calling and labelling.
This blog makes me want to shout. I mean seriously, there is so much truth being spoken in here that it just amazes me that I've finally found black women who get it. What a breath of fresh air. I've had many of the same thoughts and ideas discussed on this blog for years but didn't know if anyone else could see it either.
I don't have much time but just briefly I think there are several things going on in the black community:
1) Most black people don't like being black, especially and specifically black men. Black people never collectively learned to love themselves.
2) Us never learning to love ourselves is why it was so easy for us to scatter abroad after the "civil rights" movement was over. There was no game plan after that and frankly I feel the Civil Rights movement was short sighted. I am also not convinced that integration back then was the absolute best path to take (although you couldn't pay me enough now to be separated with the ike and ikette turners of today).
3) I believe that any major problems that affect America always affect us the worst. I feel that we have inherited the worst of this postmodern idea of tolerance and so now we in the black community tolerate EVERYTHING no matter how obviously ridiculous or wrong it is. So now you have the world where too many things are tolerated and no one can be judged for the things they do. Its the perfect recipe for disaster.
I just hope the rest of the country (and world) doesn't got the way of the black community. It really makes me question whether I want to have children.
"If dark-skinned black woman are already famous for worshipping bi-racial women, and their children, I am convinced as soon as these women begin widening their dating pool to include non-black men, and have children, they will more likely swoon over their own children for the same reasons."
I don't know where you got the idea that dark-skinned black women are 'famous' for worshipping biracial women. Please! I doubt you are a dark-skinned bw otherwise you WOULD NOT have made such a statement, assuming that dark-skinned bw(from your words, I assume you meant the majority), 'worship' biracial women. As far as I know, it is Negro males who by and large, propagate such worship, and alot of the times, it seems black women aren't given much of a choice. If all we keep on seeing are the Beyonce's, Halle's, Alicia Keyes etc., what are black women supposed to do. It's not black women that worships these women. I've noticed that the new thing nowadays among lighter skinned(predominantly the mixed ones) is to try and remove any responsibility from the negro males for colorism because their father's are just like that. Before, they always came out with the 'you are just jellus' lines, now that fewer black women are willing to be silenced, they come up with different tactics. Now I'm not referring to you specifically DeStouet, but the first line of your comment just annoyed me on so many levels. I can almost tell that you are either a mixed race or very light-skinned woman, so you are comfortable assuming that there are alot of black women out there who worship you.
Before I continue, let me just state that I am technically biracial myself(yes, shocker, white dad, Nigerian momma). Khadija, I read your post on black women not allowing 'other' women to steal their crown when you first posted it. I didn't want to comment at the time as I'm used to how these conversations go, and I thought it was only fair that I kept to myself at the time. To be honest, at first glance, I wanted to be a bit hurt(sob), as it was a double banger for me(i.e. both biracial and multicultural), but I couldn't disagree with anything you said re biracials(I don't agree with your stance on continental Africans, but that's all right).
Alot of black folk's think this whole biracial thing is a small issue. It is not. There are things they say amongst themselves that they wouldn't say when other 'normal' black folks are there. I know quite a few who zip their mouth when I'm around because they know I'll call them out. Not surprisingly, they don't have much problem airing their bigotry in front of self-hating black men. From experience, the good majority of black men don't care if a biracial woman has any anti-black views.....as long as she is willing to date them. I've even had a negro tell me that he didn't date black women.....when we were on a date. That's one of the first times that I realised that alot of bm's attraction to people of my racial make-up was BECAUSE they saw us as black enough to not be seen as a 'sell-out', but un-black enough for them to feel that they were with someone near enough to what they really wanted. It was experiences like that which opened my eyes to colorism among blacks. It is worth noting that this fool had a SERIOUS problem with black women dating non-bm. Never before and never since has such foolishness been revealed on a first date. You can guess that I never went out with him again.
There is even a website where a biracial woman was complaining about what she had seen on some sites, where names like hair-flipper were used(this is the only site that I have seen it, so I assume she secretly reads your site). When I asked her for her opinion concerning the motivation behind this(hair-flipping, paper bag test etc), she ignored me. Black folks need to stop treating this as small matter. Even I get tired of constantly seeing all shades of caramel and butterscocth being the only thing paraded as acceptable black, especially in pop culture. And let us not pretend that most black folks are light-skinned.
I once had a discussion about this with some bm. He agreed with me, even going as far as to say that a light-skinned bm is more likely to get a job than a darker-skinned one. I told him it was the same with women. He then asked me why I cared! It turns out, he only has a problem with colorism as it affects him, but is not interested in how it affects black women.
I have no time whatsoever for the lighter skinned(unmixed) women who now complain about hueism, yet in their day, where part of the group who would throw out accusations of jealousy to other darker hued women when they complained. Folks don't want to call it what it is. It's racism. These same women have now realised that they, by and large, are no longer on the right side of the hue spectrum, and want to lash out at what they think they have 'lost'. I have a 'friend' from high school who ones gave me grief about it. She was the typical high-yella type, hair-flipper to the extreme. Those days, she used to diss me for 'not taking advantage' and for 'ruining it for the rest of us' whenever I pointed out how disgusted I was with the colorist behaviour and mindset that was so obvious and prevalent among the males in her school. Her's was a predominantly black one, and she didn't find it peculiar that despite the fact that most of the girls were a shade of mahogany to ebony, most of the ones who had boyfriends were the light-bright etc type, even though some of them where ugly as hell. I know there were some hairdo's I got away with in my teenage years ONLY because I was light. Had a darker-skinned sista tried to pull off the same mess(I was experimenting), I know the black boys would have called her all sorts of names, and even the girs as well. The darker skinned girls who had less african features were always referred to as 'that girl dat think she cute'. Nowadays, I even see biracial women who get angry when they see bm with non-bw. They too are now getting stung, because it turns out that even we aren't the so-called 'fairest of them all'(in terms of skin tone). I have one such friend. When I asked her how she could be like that seeing as her father married a white woman, she started rambling. I eventually told her the truth. Her real anger is not at these people's relationship, seeing as she is a product of that EXACT type of pairing. What eats at her is the fact that she grew up thinking that she was the black man's ultimate choice, and was 'hurt' to find out she wasn't. Previously, these black men would take their biracial daughters feelings into account, so even though they despised black women, they would set biracial women apart as this would ineveitably be the product of their realtionships. Unfortunately, they(bm) no longer even care!
On another note, I have to disagree with the poster who said white men don't see hue. Yes, from my experience, they are no where near as color struck as bm, but they(white folks in general) will hate on any black (if the white person is racist), not forgetting how celebrities in those days had to be light so that they were less 'offensive' to whites? I know for a fact that Obama would not have been elected, or would have had a much harder time getting elected if he wasn't mixed. And more especially, alot of the insults Michelle gets are on the back of her being dark-skinned.
Khadija, please continue telling the truth. Alot of folks will try to silence you, but as someone with 'inside knowledge'(lol), I know that ALL you said about biracials wanting to benefit from yet deny any blackness is 100% true. From experience, the majority are this way.
On a final note, this colorism also exists among biracials. My older brother is very light(pretty much the Wentworth Miller incognegro type). He has said that he got little hassle from black folks or white folks(as many of these whites think he's white). He said that most of the problems was from other biracial folks. They were jealous that he could pass and they couldn't. And they hated him more for the fact that now he's grown, he doesn't try to pass. Remember, a good majority of biracials today are born of black men. If it's so easy to grasp that they have self-hating issues in regards to dating, why can't we understand that they pass it onto their children. The same goes for black women who have their own issues.
Lol, I just remembered one very unfortunate incident. I once had a boyfriend who came round to my house. He got VERY offended when he found out it was my father, and not my mother that was white. This mess of a creature actually threw a fit in my own home. Unfortunately for him, my dad was home that day. Let's just say that sometimes 'white heat' can be useful. This negro was walking with a limp for days, lol.
Hello there, Evia!
You said, "Halima and Khadija, let's be real. IMO, the MAIN reason why some bw have just decided not to fight back these days is because they don't believe they will get SUPPORT. If people KNOW that they have SUPPORT, they will not bend over and allow anyone to stick it to them."
Hmmm...Where's BW's supposed big resevoir of faith in God? We're the main ones falling out in churches. Where's our so-called faith? One person WITH God's support = a majority.
At some point, people have to be prepared to stand alone with God. Oppressed people don't have the luxury of waiting until there's a "pack" of fellow cowardly jackals to provide cover. Live like sheep, die like sheep who are slaughtered for kicks and for fun.
But then again, my thoughts are the result of having a real Dad. Dad taught me that I didn't have to win the few fights I had as a child. All he REQUIRED of me was that I made sure the bully got hurt. Bad. Bad enough to think real hard about ever bothering me again in the future.
[This is why when I was small, and a much bigger girl (3 grade levels ahead of me) started chasing me after school, I planned my next move. One day, instead of packing my lunch in my Diahann Carroll as Julia lunchbox, I packed it full of rocks.
Then, as soon as the "big girl" got in my face and started pushing me that day, I swung my Julia lunchbox into her head with all my might.
Of course, she ultimately stomped me into the ground. HOWEVER, she had a HUGE, bleeding knot on her head to remember me by. Curiously (LOL!), she never bothered me again. Neither did the other bullies who were watching. I learned a lot from that episode. Those lessons have stayed with me for a lifetime.]
You said, This is why I used to talk about bw supporting each other so much, but that strangely didn't seem to resonate with my readers. That usually means that it's an alien concept to readers or one that makes them uncomfortable. Then when Khadija, very early on, started writing about the lack of close relationships between bw, I was amazed. It wasn't what she said that amazed me. It was the elementary way she had to break it down to her readers as to WHY those relationships were so important!!!!!"
Mutual support IS an alien concept for most AA women at this point. And the concept is becoming a distant memory among many of us who are blessed to know better. After our generation passes away, the very idea will pass beyond living memory for AA women. Those of us who know better really ARE the "Last Mohicans" among AA women. In many ways.
You said, "Whereas I get lots of notes praising me for standing up to the Ikes and Ikettes, I don't normally get notes of praise for sticking up for dark-skinned women. I don't really know why not."
My guess is that it's too painful for most of us to admit the reality of what's going on. As Rev. Lisa and Halima have commented, we're too caught up with maintaining the facade of fabulousness to admit to being in pain. This silence helps enable the colorist oppression to continue.{sigh}
You said, "Then she said softly, "You don't understand. Do you realize that most bw are just trying to get through to ***the end of the day?*** ...Many of us don't realize all the privileges we've had."
Exactly! This is why I am shrill and harsh (or as my secretary calls it, "stern and firm" LOL!) when it comes to defending BW's interests. Most AA women are literally...dazed...and...on...the...ground...from having their spirits stomped.
___________________
Hello there, Halima!
You said, "Just wanted to add that I enjoy the spirit of courageousness that you exhibit Khadija."
Thank you for your kind words. I praise God for my parents. They are the ones that taught me how critical it is to stand up for yourself and for what's right. And that people who fail to do this will have lives that even a dog wouldn't want.
You said, "I think this 'even if I have to stand alone' spirit is so very important for bw today because a whole lot of us are looking around for a nod, and a green light to proceed, yet given how bw are socialized againt their most basic interests, it is almost essentiall that we do not seek always seek a nod from fellow bw because they are often under this colluding with the status quo spell."
BW need to get it through their heads once and for all that there's NOT going to be any green light for justice. And certainly not from most other people. This is because they are either directly benefitting from the injustice, or chosen to make themselves as comfortable as possible with the status quo.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"NO. I will NEVER passively "sit back" and watch Satanic ideology spread. I will continue to voice my affirmation of BLACK people as also being as beautiful as the rest of God's creations."
And they are.
What I was thinking when I first read Tariq's was, let them. If there are large majority of black folks (all across the world) that want to marry into the white population because they are ashamed of being black, let them.
I was not saying, those individuals who are proud of being "black" should just sit by and not speak the truth. I just don't believe we should stop these women and men from doing as they please.
Anonymous,
I'm sorry if my statement annoyed you.
During the "Stolen Crown" discussion, there was a huge discussion about how darker-skinned women tended to "play the background" and push their light-skinned/bi-racial friends to the forefront.
Different women even provided us readers with some examples.
If it is true that darker skinned black women just adore all of the features of their bi-racial/light skinned friends, and they never learn how to take any pride in themselves, when these women eventually marry out, I believe many of them will take this kind of thinking with them.
They will treat their "bi-racial" children like swans; they will probably hope and pray to the gods and mountains above that their children's skin never darkens. They will pray the same prayer about their children’s hair.
BTW, I didn't say anything about darker-skinned women "worshipping" me.
Hello there, Nickbobbicals!
Thank you for your kind words about the blog. I truly appreciate it.
You said, "Most black people don't like being black, especially and specifically black men. Black people never collectively learned to love themselves."
True. We chanted a lot of slogans in the 1960s that we NEVER believed,such as "Black is Beautiful." It is beautiful, like everything else, but most of us never bought into that idea. After about 5-10 years, we stopped even saying the slogans.
I also have my misgivings about integration as a strategy. Keep in mind that our leaders were mostly as self-hating as the rest of the masses of Black folks. That's why they, and WE, couldn't wait to chase after Whites and other non-Blacks.
That's why Dr. King, the Panthers, Harry Belafonte, etc. were feverishly chasing and sexing White women. I've said this before, let me repeat it here. I'm convinced that most BM civil rights leaders' primary motivation for the movement was in order to ultimately have increased access to White women. This other stuff about liberating Black folks was a cover story.
You said, "I believe that any major problems that affect America always affect us the worst."
Yes, the old saying is true: When White America has a cold, Black America has pneumonia.
_______________________
Hello there, Anonymous!
You said, "As far as I know, it is Negro males who by and large, propagate such worship, and alot of the times, it seems black women aren't given much of a choice. If all we keep on seeing are the Beyonce's, Halle's, Alicia Keyes etc., what are black women supposed to do."
Actually, BW do have a choice. We can make the conscious, deliberate choice to support those BW who reflect US. For example, we could have supported Stephanie Mills.
I would assume that most BW (like most other women) are straight. That means that most of us aren't buying records (I'm showing my age---LOL!) to drool over some woman. This means that whether or not BM find these darker BF entertainers attractive should NOT have any impact on our consumer choices as women.
We DON'T have to patronize the "biracials" and the "light-brights" to the detriment and exclusion of BW who look like the majority of US.
You said, "There is even a website where a biracial woman was complaining about what she had seen on some sites, where names like hair-flipper were used(this is the only site that I have seen it, so I assume she secretly reads your site)."
{deeply amused chuckling} Like so many oppressors, she's not used to having a mirror held up to her face. Oppressors usually find the truth and justice to be unpleasant for them.
You said, "When I asked her for her opinion concerning the motivation behind this(hair-flipping, paper bag test etc), she ignored me."
Be careful, Anonymous! *Smile* You're breaking the see no paper bag test, hear no paper bag test, speak of no paper bag test code of silence among these folks. You might find yourself banned from that site! LOL!
You said, " Black folks need to stop treating this as small matter."
I agree, that's why I'm speaking out. That's why, after months of deliberation, I decided to put up a button directing readers to the "Crown" discussion.
You said, "Khadija, I read your post on black women not allowing 'other' women to steal their crown when you first posted it. I didn't want to comment at the time as I'm used to how these conversations go, and I thought it was only fair that I kept to myself at the time. To be honest, at first glance, I wanted to be a bit hurt(sob), as it was a double banger for me(i.e. both biracial and multicultural), but I couldn't disagree with anything you said re biracials(I don't agree with your stance on continental Africans, but that's all right)."
I'm just telling the plain truth to the best of my ability. I believe that if a "biracial," etc. person is NOT engaged in oppressive behaviors against the rest of us Black folks, then there's no real reason to be defensive. [I'm not saying that you're being defensive.]
I don't feel any need to be defensive about the colorism issue because I know that I haven't screwed over darker Black folks. I know that I haven't traded on whatever light-skin privilege I have. I know that I've done my best to oppose colorism. So my conscience is clear, and I don't get "up tight" when this topic comes up.
The flip side of this is that (because I've done my best to support justice) I don't feel guilty about being light-skinned. This means that I don't take crap off of the FEW (justifiably) angry darker women who wanted to use ME as their whipping girl.
None of the above has prevented a FEW (justifiably) angry darker-skinned BW from blindly trying to lash out at me, even though I haven't done anything to them. This was part of why my previous BF supervisor was preoccupied with "hating on" me. [In addition to her class issues.]
You said, "I have no time whatsoever for the lighter skinned(unmixed) women who now complain about hueism, yet in their day, where part of the group who would throw out accusations of jealousy to other darker hued women when they complained. Folks don't want to call it what it is. It's racism. These same women have now realised that they, by and large, are no longer on the right side of the hue spectrum, and want to lash out at what they think they have 'lost'."
Actually, Black folks do this across the board. It's similar to the Black folks who can't be bothered talking about racism until their White coworkers hang a noose around their door. Then they want every other Black person (whose concerns they previously ignored) to come a-running to their rescue.
NOT. This type of person can twist in the wind, for all I care. Reciprocity goes both ways. I'm as indifferent to them as they were to the rest of us when they were "riding high."
I agree with your observations of Whites and hue. The Whites that are RACIST are focused on that.
The Whites that are NOT racist are NOT focused on that. It's been my experience that NON-racist Whites see "Black" folks as more or less "equally" Black. They're not measuring noses, lips and types of hair. Once you're in the visibly "Black" category, you're as "Black" as any other Black person.
You said, "I know for a fact that Obama would not have been elected, or would have had a much harder time getting elected if he wasn't mixed. And more especially, alot of the insults Michelle gets are on the back of her being dark-skinned."
Yep. True that.
You said, "Khadija, please continue telling the truth. Alot of folks will try to silence you, but as someone with 'inside knowledge'(lol), I know that ALL you said about biracials wanting to benefit from yet deny any blackness is 100% true. From experience, the majority are this way."
THANK YOU for telling the plain truth about this dynamic! We see what's happening, but very few people speak the truth. And I have NO intention of being silent about the truth! LOL!
You said, "On a final note, this colorism also exists among biracials. My older brother is very light(pretty much the Wentworth Miller incognegro type). He has said that he got little hassle from black folks or white folks(as many of these whites think he's white). He said that most of the problems was from other biracial folks. They were jealous that he could pass and they couldn't. And they hated him more for the fact that now he's grown, he doesn't try to pass."
I'm not surprised. I have some ("unmixed") relatives that look White. They've told similar tales. In their case, of some visibly Black "biracials" being jealous of them being mistaken for White even though they are "unmixed." And of these "biracial" nuts being offended by their choice to be unapologetically BLACK.
I praise God that most of my relatives don't have colorism issues. As a family, we have NEVER been the sort of Blacks who glory in pointing out that we're 1/23rd Irish, or 1/6337th Cherokee, or any other such mess.
You said, "Remember, a good majority of biracials today are born of black men. If it's so easy to grasp that they have self-hating issues in regards to dating, why can't we understand that they pass it onto their children. The same goes for black women who have their own issues."
Many of us don't understand because we desperately want to PRETEND that the days of self-hating paper bag tests are over. Even when they aren't. Even when they've escalated into manila-folder tests.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Everyone,
If you haven't seen it already, please read the latest What About Our Daughters post and comments.
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2009/
03/surely-ciroc-vodka-isnt-this-stupid-requirements-white-hispanic-or-light-skinned-african-american/
I don't know or care if Sean Combs/P-Diddy/Puffy/Whatever knew about this particular alleged colorist ad. Just look at what he's already done in terms of casting commercials for his products. What he's already done is sufficient for me to make a point of NOT buying anything that he's peddling, including his music.
Why do BW continue to buy this creature's products? There are so many other choices we can make. It's not as if the choice is between "buy Sean Combs' music vs. live in utter silence."
Why do BW buy the mess that the "biracial" creature, Kimora Lee Simmons is peddling? And for those who don't know, Asian cultures are extremely xenophobic. For the most part, they don't even react well to marrying each other (Koreans or Chinese marrying Japanese). These "Cablanasians" are ALWAYS at the very bottom of the social scale in these countries.
Kimora Lee Simmons couldn't pay her Asian folks to accept the garbage that she peddles to BW. That's why she HAS to target her whole thing at BW. The same BW that she has contempt for. Why do BW buy her garbage?
Like I said in the original Crown essay, when BW support racist, colorist Negro "artists," we are subsidizing our own oppression. I feel that if BW continue to do this, then we deserve what we get from these anti-BW creatures.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I don't know or care if Sean Combs/P-Diddy/Puffy/Whatever knew about this particular alleged colorist ad. Just look at what he's already done in terms of casting commercials for his products. What he's already done is sufficient for me to make a point of NOT buying anything that he's peddling, including his music.
SO TRUE! Over the Christmas holidays, I was looking for some cologne as a gift for one of my young bm cousins. At CVS, there was Sean Combs cologne which a young Hispanic woman (about the same age as my cousin) said that he would LOVE. I bought it without looking carefully at the picture on the cover of the box. Later, when I got ready to wrap the box, I looked at it closely and saw him in the pic with all of these non-bw women (blonde, Hispanic looking, Asian looking) in various fawning poses around him. I looked all over that box for the pic of a black-looking woman. NONE.
I could NOT give my cousin that cologne. It's still in the back seat of my truck because I couldn't find the receipt to return it. I'll probably just throw it away because giving ANYBODY that cologne inside that box is damaging to bw who look like the bulk of us. I know I could take it out of the box and give it to somebody, but I don't even want to promote his cologne at all. I'm still hoping I can find the receipt.
Once again, I don't care who bm choose to date or marry, but I do care about who supports these men and who makes it possible for them to put these other women in a life of luxury. It's totally stupid to me for any bw to support any man who would not choose to date or marry women who look like her ESPECIALLY when she could buy another product.
Bw must stop supporting bm's self hate particularly when the bw herself is the victim or when the self hate is expressed by taking resources away from bw.
Also, I've stated in a couple of my essays on my site and I saw another commenter here say the same thing: Bw need to STOP feeling rejected or getting upset at bm who discriminate against bw because you shouldn't be supporting them in word OR deed AND these males will pass their self-hate issues to the children they have by these nonbw. They cannot hide their self-hate issues from their children. The children will detect it; they will absorb it and they'll have similar issues too and problem-ridden lives, unfortunately.
Like I said in the original Crown essay, when BW support racist, colorist Negro "artists," we are subsidizing our own oppression. I feel that if BW continue to do this, then we deserve what we get from these anti-BW creatures.
When bw support colorist negroes PERIOD--in ANY walk of life, we are subsidizing our own oppression. Bw need to look around themselves--at their black male boyfriends, husbands, brothers, cousins, uncles, fathers, friends, etc. and insist that these colorist males get some help to cure them of this damaging idolatry because it's KILLING the spirits of LOTS of black girls and bw. Bm could cure this fetish in themselves IF they chose to do so and so can the bw who have this fetish. Yet so many AAs are so focused on hunting and pecking for wm who might be fetishizing bw, when practically every other black person that you or I know has this fetish for light skin. That's proof positive of self-hate right there. Self-hating people are NOT going to make progress as a group. I'm not saying that anyone who likes a light skinned person has a fetish. I'm sure we can all tell the difference.
But you'll never hear anyone talk about this light-bright fetish that many AAs have at any of these national black conferences or the Black State of the Union. LOL! That prevalent fetish is a very strong social indicator that AAs are not going to make progress as a group--no matter who is in the White House.
When I was dating my ex-husband, several of the bw I knew made sly derogatory comments about his complexion and hair texture. Yet he was a very high Quality man. None of those women ended up with males to marry or to mate with who were anywhere near his Quality. ALL of those women are now ALONE or stuck with children who they had by LVs AA men or other bm or outright DBRs. However, as they saw the quality of my life rise with him, they had the nerve to get jealous of me. LOL!!
Likewise, when some of these same women saw that I was dating wm and planned to marry Darren, their small minds went to work again talking about their preference for "nothing but a bm," and they once again can't figure out why they're still struggling and why I and my children live well.
I'm beginning to think that the aliens are actually here and have done lobotomies on some AA women!! I'm only half-joking.
On another note, there's a big ruckus about the new Disney princess: Princess Tiana who's a black woman. Her love interest in this movie is a white-skinned male and already factions in the black "community" are threatening to boycott the movie, saying that the prince should be a bm. This irks me to the max because on the one hand, prominent bm do not generally choose bw as mates and lift bw up and when others try to do it, they're determined to try to block us being lifted up.
This is why I can't understand why so many bw are so soft on bm. I don't know what it's going to take to make AA women realize that we have a real enemy WITHIN.
Anyway, Felicia sent me this link: British Article and other site researchers sent me American Article and comments about this brewing madness.
I then received this note yesterday:
Evia,
If you haven't already heard, I just wanted to let you know that some black people are calling for a boycott of a new Disney film featuring their first black princess, "Princess Tiana", because her romantic interest is not a black character but an Indian character named "Patel". As you probably know Patel is a very common Indian name. I have seen his animation and he is very handsome and obviously not black, she has a beautiful chocolate brown complexion.
I pray that Disney doesn't change the character and stick to their guns.
These are probably the same people pissed off at Halle over "Monster's Ball" and her Oscar and her white man lol.
Anyway...
They are doing the same thing to this movie as they did to "The Color Purple" when it was nominated for the Academy Awards. Jesse Jackson (arrrgg, can't stand him) and his ilk threatened the Motion Picture industry with accusations of racism if the movie won any Oscars. Needless to say, the movie did not win any major categories and rumor has it that Oprah is still upset at Jesee over his actions. He was upset because the "Mister" character "made black men look bad". As if, right!
This is an animated feature!
Are some black people afraid of what message this will send to black women and girls?
AA women really need to show their natural BEHINDS about this situation. This movie will lift the spirits of so many young black girls, but once again these black factions are ONLY concerned about bm. AA women, as a group, are NEVER going to rise much at all as long as they allow these bm to keep stepping on our backs as they move on up. If these males want a Disney black prince, why don't they deal directly with Disney without trying to use this bw character as their leverage???? They're always hiding behind a bw, whining "me too, me too!" They're always trying to siphon power from bw, instead of dealing directly with other men. MEN deal directly with other MEN.
I actually think black women do a pretty good job of boycotting those who denigrate us. I'm thinking of the response to that horrible Wesley Snipes interview. I mean, dude has plenty of other issues impacting his career, but black women never forgave him. I think the problem with all these various rappers and whatnot is that black women are not the primary or even secondary consumers of hip-hop, so we don't have much impact on their sales and they know this.
I don't know anyone personally who wears any of KLS's clothes. I only see a certain demographic in it, and I think they mistake that tacky mess for 'couture.' I think most of us see her for what she is; someone who's over the top because she doesn't know how to as my mama always cautioned, "Act like you've been there before."
I don't know where you got the idea that dark-skinned black women are 'famous' for worshipping biracial women.
I haven't seen this either. If anything, I've seen dark-skinned black women react with hostility towards those who are lighter hued. Being medium complected myself, I haven't been on the receiving end of either, but I haven't seen any worshipping going on.
I keep hearing about black women who claim that they chose their mates in order to have lighter kids, but I've only actually seen these people on-line and on television.
There weren't that many biracial girls in my high school, in fact I only remember one and she was very plus-sized so maybe that impacted on people's response to her, but I recall her being taunted and picked on relentlessly.
Of course, I have never spent a whole lot of time around black men. For most of my life I've hung out almost exclusively with white men/boys and black women/girls. Even in college I found that black men were disinterested in black women's issues. (White guys weren't interested either, but at least they weren't stupid enough to tell me THEIR ISSUES were more important.
Not being around black men I never spent much time pondering what their preferences are. This has served me well.
DeStouet said...
" Anonymous,
I'm sorry if my statement annoyed you.
During the "Stolen Crown" discussion, there was a huge discussion about how darker-skinned women tended to "play the background" and push their light-skinned/bi-racial friends to the forefront.
Different women even provided us readers with some examples."
I have no issue with this comment. My problem with your original comment was that you were putting the onus on black women, when in reality, it was something that was being promoted by black men. When darker skinned women 'play the background', they are not doing it by choice. Most times, they are forcefully shoved there. Hardly ever was I pushed to the front by my darker skinned friends on their own. I was already put there by black men on the back of my being mixed-race.
"If it is true that darker skinned black women just adore all of the features of their bi-racial/light skinned friends, and they never learn how to take any pride in themselves, when these women eventually marry out, I believe many of them will take this kind of thinking with them."
But is it really true? In the first post that I replied to, your comment that darker skinned black women 'worship' lighter/biracial ones was absolute. Everything else you said hinged on that belief. Now, you say 'if it is true' that darker skinned women adore.....
"hey will treat their "bi-racial" children like swans; they will probably hope and pray to the gods and mountains above that their children's skin never darkens. They will pray the same prayer about their children’s hair.
BTW, I didn't say anything about darker-skinned women "worshipping" me."
I never said you did. My point was that the way you made the comment was reminiscent of the way the other lighter/biracial women talk concerning this issue, hence the reason I said I suspect you may fall into that category. That is why when I made the comment about you assuming darker skinned women were worshipping you, I prefaced it with the statement that I suspected you were very light-skinned or biracial.
As I said, it wasn't anything personal to you, it's just that I am used to hearing that kind of language from other biracial women, even those who might have honest intentions.
------
Khadija said...
"I also have my misgivings about integration as a strategy. Keep in mind that our leaders were mostly as self-hating as the rest of the masses of Black folks. That's why they, and WE, couldn't wait to chase after Whites and other non-Blacks.
That's why Dr. King, the Panthers, Harry Belafonte, etc. were feverishly chasing and sexing White women. I've said this before, let me repeat it here. I'm convinced that most BM civil rights leaders' primary motivation for the movement was in order to ultimately have increased access to White women. This other stuff about liberating Black folks was a cover story."
Lol. There are so many black folks who will deny this, especially black women. How can NOI leader Farrakhan stand on a podium and announce to the men in the audience that to get rid of the white race, they should all mate with white women, and even worse, his statements received a thunderous cheer and applause from the men in the audience. They were not cheering the extinction of whites, they were cheering the thought of sleeping with white women. That made all of them so happy!
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Hello there, Anonymous!
"Actually, BW do have a choice. We can make the conscious, deliberate choice to support those BW who reflect US. For example, we could have supported Stephanie Mills."
Agree. My point was that rather than just trying to get black women to stop supporting the Neyos ad YungBergs, shouldn't we also try to get these Negroes out of buisness. I know that is the aim of getting black women to withdraw their support, but we should bear in mind that the majority of the people who actually BUY their music, as opposed to just downloading, listening, etc are white. They know this, hence the reason why they are comfortable casting black women in their videos for the most degrading parts (& as I have noticed, the more disgusting the dance, the darker the woman that is cast for it). They will cast a black woman to shake her behind, for them to sing about sexing her up. But when it's time to sing about love, heartbreak, her beauty, she is white, latino, asian or some other mix. I am biracial myself, and I don't need to pretend that it is biracial women whose beauty is denigrated constantly. Even if black women don't support them, these images are still there, so little black girs can still see them.
------
"Be careful, Anonymous! *Smile* You're breaking the see no paper bag test, hear no paper bag test, speak of no paper bag test code of silence among these folks. You might find yourself banned from that site! LOL!"
One of them called me an idiot for even mentioning the issue. In her mind, I was foolish to be against colorism since like her, I am benefitting.
------
"I'm just telling the plain truth to the best of my ability. I believe that if a "biracial," etc. person is NOT engaged in oppressive behaviors against the rest of us Black folks, then there's no real reason to be defensive. [I'm not saying that you're being defensive.]"
Not to worry, I didn't think you were.
------
"I don't feel any need to be defensive about the colorism issue because I know that I haven't screwed over darker Black folks. I know that I haven't traded on whatever light-skin privilege I have. I know that I've done my best to oppose colorism. So my conscience is clear, and I don't get "up tight" when this topic comes up.
I have noticed that those who get the most uptight and defensive over this issue are those have not only benefitted, but want to continue to benefit.
------
"The flip side of this is that (because I've done my best to support justice) I don't feel guilty about being light-skinned. This means that I don't take crap off of the FEW (justifiably) angry darker women who wanted to use ME as their whipping girl.
None of the above has prevented a FEW (justifiably) angry darker-skinned BW from blindly trying to lash out at me, even though I haven't done anything to them. This was part of why my previous BF supervisor was preoccupied with "hating on" me. [In addition to her class issues.]"
When things like that happen, I brush it off. I make no apologies. However, I am mindful of the fact that alot of them might have been on the receiving end of negative treatment from their mixed/mixed-looking 'sisters' so come assuming that everyone else would be the same. Still does not excuse it though.
------
"Actually, Black folks do this across the board. It's similar to the Black folks who can't be bothered talking about racism until their White coworkers hang a noose around their door. Then they want every other Black person (whose concerns they previously ignored) to come a-running to their rescue.
NOT. This type of person can twist in the wind, for all I care. Reciprocity goes both ways. I'm as indifferent to them as they were to the rest of us when they were "riding high."
Too true. When this discussion first came up, I remember one particular bw blogger who got offended because a darker skinned woman said she would no longer be a shoulder to cry on for those who have no problem benefitting from and continuing with colorism. Yet this same blogger's only reaction to the colorism debate was 'lets stick together', 'this is only about fighting for men', etc.
------
"I agree with your observations of Whites and hue. The Whites that are RACIST are focused on that.
The Whites that are NOT racist are NOT focused on that. It's been my experience that NON-racist Whites see "Black" folks as more or less "equally" Black. They're not measuring noses, lips and types of hair. Once you're in the visibly "Black" category, you're as "Black" as any other Black person.
I don't want people to confuse non-racist whites with liberal whites. The two are very different. There are many 'open-minded', 'color blind' white liberals who will see color if it's black. They too engage in colorism. My dad used to laugh with my mom about alot of the racist things some folks would say around him, even these so-called liberals, only for them to go white with shock(pardon the pun) when they later on see that his wife was black. Normally they wouldn't care, but because he was well to do and alot of them depended on him for their income, they knew they'd be in trouble. When they'd get fired later on for 'no' reason, they knew not to complain.
------
"I praise God that most of my relatives don't have colorism issues. As a family, we have NEVER been the sort of Blacks who glory in pointing out that we're 1/23rd Irish, or 1/6337th Cherokee, or any other such mess."
That is something that irks the hell out of me. It seems that every balck folk you meet has 1/476 Native American. I'm all for folks claiming to be part bird if that's what suits them, but it's like enough already!
--------
"Many of us don't understand because we desperately want to PRETEND that the days of self-hating paper bag tests are over. Even when they aren't. Even when they've escalated into manila-folder tests."
They are still alive and well. The only difference is that the cut-off point keeps getting further and further away from black.
---------
"For example, for the life of me, I cannot comprehend why a self-hating Negro like Tariq Nelson (who apparently advocates "passing" as the solution to anti-Black racism) is accepted and respected among the ranks of Muslim BLACK bloggers."
Now that is just too sad.
-------
"I don't know or care if Sean Combs/P-Diddy/Puffy/Whatever knew about this particular alleged colorist ad. Just look at what he's already done in terms of casting commercials for his products. What he's already done is sufficient for me to make a point of NOT buying anything that he's peddling, including his music.
Why do BW continue to buy this creature's products? There are so many other choices we can make. It's not as if the choice is between "buy Sean Combs' music vs. live in utter silence."
I haven't yet read the story, but this is the same Sean Combs that decided to cast EVERY race of woman on earth BUT a black woman in his first campaign. When black women complained, what did this fool do? He got his ex-baby momma to appear in one of his ads. In other words, he and his people didn't think a black model was worth hiring. There was a blonde white woman, a brunnete white woman, a latino woman, a Native American, an eastern Asian etc, but no black. Their excuse was that they wanted to market to as wide an audience as possible so wanted everyone represented. Yet they didn't think they needed to take black women into consideration. Most of the people who bought his perfume were black women. If they didn't act then, despite their outrage, I doubt they will now. I am 100% sure that Sean Combs knew about this latest ad.
-----
"Why do BW buy the mess that the "biracial" creature, Kimora Lee Simmons is peddling? And for those who don't know, Asian cultures are extremely xenophobic. For the most part, they don't even react well to marrying each other (Koreans or Chinese marrying Japanese). These "Cablanasians" are ALWAYS at the very bottom of the social scale in these countries.
Kimora Lee Simmons couldn't pay her Asian folks to accept the garbage that she peddles to BW. That's why she HAS to target her whole thing at BW. The same BW that she has contempt for. Why do BW buy her garbage?
Blasians are seen as trash, lowest of the low amongst Asians. The ones with black mothers are treated better. This is because the ones with black fathers are assumed to have prostitutes for mothers. That's why I'm surprised by their attitude to black folks.
"I have no issue with this comment. My problem with your original comment was that you were putting the onus on black women, when in reality, it was something that was being promoted by black men. When darker skinned women 'play the background', they are not doing it by choice. Most times, they are forcefully shoved there. Hardly ever was I pushed to the front by my darker skinned friends on their own. I was already put there by black men on the back of my being mixed-race."
It's sounds like you wanted me to state my beliefs about this topic the exact way, or very similar to, the way you would have stated it.
I am not talking about young girls. My comment was talking about grown women who are old enough to know better. Have you read Tariq's essay? It was his essay that prompted my comment.
I understand the part black men play in this issue but there comes a time when some of these black women who date and marry non-black men become aware of the damage in the AA community, and still makes a choice to be ashamed of who her skin color. She still makes a choice to idolize her mixed/light skinned children.
She can not blame the way she feels about herself on black men for the rest of her life. Black men are not responsible for the way she is so on love with her children features.
Hello there, Evia!
You said, "Once again, I don't care who bm choose to date or marry, but I do care about who supports these men and who makes it possible for them to put these other women in a life of luxury. It's totally stupid to me for any bw to support any man who would not choose to date or marry women who look like her ESPECIALLY when she could buy another product.
Bw must stop supporting bm's self hate particularly when the bw herself is the victim or when the self hate is expressed by taking resources away from bw."
{raised fist salute---ESPECIALLY for the part I put in boldface}
I don't have a problem buying products and services from BM who are supporting BLACK wives and BLACK children.
However...Let me put this is very primal terms, so we're all clear: There is NO way that I'm going to subsidize some other woman. Especially if she's not Black. I refused to be pimped by males; I'm certainly not going to be pimped by some woman. And that's what all of this boils down to in my mind.
Why in the world would I take my hard-earned money...that I had to roll up out of bed and go to a job for...and give it to some Negro so he can give it to some non-Black woman?! When you support this type of Negro, the bottom line is that Becky, Lupe, J.Lo, and Mei Ling have got you working for THEM!
You said, "If these males want a Disney black prince, why don't they deal directly with Disney without trying to use this bw character as their leverage???? They're always hiding behind a bw, whining "me too, me too!" They're always trying to siphon power from bw, instead of dealing directly with other men. MEN deal directly with other MEN."
Black male adults don't take their issues directly to non-Black men because they are afraid of MEN. Black male adults know that they are not men. So they leave actual MEN alone.
_______________________
Hello there, Roslyn!
You said, "I actually think black women do a pretty good job of boycotting those who denigrate us. I'm thinking of the response to that horrible Wesley Snipes interview. I mean, dude has plenty of other issues impacting his career, but black women never forgave him. I think the problem with all these various rappers and whatnot is that black women are not the primary or even secondary consumers of hip-hop, so we don't have much impact on their sales and they know this."
I somewhat disagree. First of all, I'm not sure that the bulk of Snipes' films were the sort that BW were inclined to see anyway (Blade, etc.). Second, I have NOT seen any large number of BW make a point of boycotting ANY "musical artist" who denigrates BW. OR even boycott BM "artists" who are molest Black girls, and BM "artists" who beat BW.
You said, "I keep hearing about black women who claim that they chose their mates in order to have lighter kids, but I've only actually seen these people on-line and on television."
I know BW like this. More than one.
_______________
Hello there, Anonymous!
You said, "Agree. My point was that rather than just trying to get black women to stop supporting the Neyos ad YungBergs, shouldn't we also try to get these Negroes out of buisness...Even if black women don't support them, these images are still there, so little black girs can still see them."
I agree with you; I would like to see these creatures disappear from the industry. I see it as a matter of setting priorities with our very limited resources.
There are only a handful of BW who are willing to stand against colorism. Under these circumstances, I feel that it's more important to use our resources to support and create healthy, affirming BLACK female entertainers that we can direct our children's attention to.
I would prefer that those few BW who are willing to act regarding this issue spend that energy on lifting up those BF entertainers who are worthy of our support, AND who also look like the bulk of US.
You said, "I have noticed that those who get the most uptight and defensive over this issue are those have not only benefitted, but want to continue to benefit."
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner here! This is it, exactly!
You said, "Too true. When this discussion first came up, I remember one particular bw blogger who got offended because a darker skinned woman said she would no longer be a shoulder to cry on for those who have no problem benefitting from and continuing with colorism. Yet this same blogger's only reaction to the colorism debate was 'lets stick together', 'this is only about fighting for men', etc."
I think I know the conversation you're speaking of. If we're talking about the same discussion, I was disappointed by that blogger's reaction. I got the feeling that the blogger was: (1) afraid of BW closing ranks in a way that might lead to excluding her; and (2) unwilling to voluntarily relinquish the slightest bit of priviledge, no matter how illegitimate it was.
I was also irked by this blogger allowing a "Lupe" to intrude upon this conversation between BW. The blogger and the Chicana were upset at my references to the ENDLESS list of Black celebrities who are White women's children. They were also extremely upset at me pulling the covers off of these Black celebrities and describing them as "White women's children."
As I told a 3rd blogger when we were talking about this issue, if there's allegedly nothing hostile about these "biracials" pointing out how distinct they are from the Black masses due to their non-Black heritage---then it shouldn't be perceived as hostile for me to identify them by their non-Black mothers.
After all, these "biracials" and those confused Black folks who carry water for "biracials" often tell us "generic, non-exotic Blacks (LOL!)" that they supposedly don't mean anything demeaning to us "generics" when they're making sure that we know that they have a non-Black parent.
Since, according to them, none of this should be taken in a hostile manner by "generic, non-exotic Blacks," it shouldn't be taken as hostile to identify these persons by their White mothers. [= "White women's children"]
Oh, I feel like doing a partial roll call again. {drum roll}
Alicia Keys
Halle Berry
Lisa Bonet
Shemar Moore
Vin Diesel
Persia White
Rashida Jones
Jennifer Beals
Jasmine Guy
Victoria Rowell
Boris Kodjoe
Lonette McKee
Sidney Tamiia Poitier
Clark Johnson
Mario Van Peebles
Gee. I wonder if there’s a pattern with all of this? {mirthless laughter}
You see, it's forbidden to describe oppressive scenarios as they are.
You said, "I don't want people to confuse non-racist whites with liberal whites. The two are very different. There are many 'open-minded', 'color blind' white liberals who will see color if it's black. They too engage in colorism."
It's been my experience that the so-called progressives and liberals are often the worst racists. Many of them think that they are somehow immune to being racist because they support "left-wing" causes. NOT.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Evia said...
"I looked at it closely and saw him in the pic with all of these non-bw women (blonde, Hispanic looking, Asian looking) in various fawning poses around him. I looked all over that box for the pic of a black-looking woman. NONE."
Even if there was a black woman on it, I still wouldn't have bought it anyway. As far as I'm concerned, he has made enough money of denigrating black women, so I don't need to give him any more. And from past experience, he has always had this discriminatory attitude towards black women, especially those of a darker hue, so I am not remotely surprised that this happened this time around. I don't care that he impregnated Kim Porter. He has treated her like trash, yet black women still 'like' him because atleast he dated her. We all know that the only reason he didn't marry J.Lo is because she didn't want him.
_________________________
"Once again, I don't care who bm choose to date or marry, but I do care about who supports these men and who makes it possible for them to put these other women in a life of luxury. It's totally stupid to me for any bw to support any man who would not choose to date or marry women who look like her ESPECIALLY when she could buy another product.
Bw must stop supporting bm's self hate particularly when the bw herself is the victim or when the self hate is expressed by taking resources away from bw."
I am not very hopeful that black women will, in large numbers, boycott this alcoholic drink, and I'm not even sure how many of us even drink it to begin with(I don't). I have noticed that when black women start making noise(yes, that's what most of it is and I'll explain why) about boycotting the products being peddled by these people who denigrate black women, promote these denigrating images, or completely disregard black women by excluding them while including any other race of woman, most of us are usually only willing to 'boycott' something that we don't even use. Hence, it cannot really be called a boycott. When the time comes to boycott something that we use or enjoy, we give only lip service. Even when its something mundane that we might not even need. How many women are so disgusted at R. Kelly, will not buy any music that he releases in future, but will still play his past stuff. Please r kelly is no Prince(the artist). His music was never that good. Or take a Ne-Yo. Do I like him as an artist? No. I don't think he can sing, not that good a dancer and I find him physically unattractive. I never needed to hear him singing love songs to me. However, i did listen to his music. But I think he is a VERY good song writer. It pains me when I find out that a song I really like by another artist was actually written by him, as he is the one who will actually make the money. But I still have no problem letting the song go. We have to make sacrifices like these. The same goes with semi-negroes like Kimora Lee Simmons. It's made even more annoying by the fact that this woman's clothes are completely sub-par. So not only is there no loss in ignoring her, there was never any benefit to patronising her in the first place. Yet.Black.Women.Still.Do! It seems the majority of us only want to boycott something when it's something that we don't have to actually boycott.
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"When bw support colorist negroes PERIOD--in ANY walk of life, we are subsidizing our own oppression. Bw need to look around themselves--at their black male boyfriends, husbands, brothers, cousins, uncles, fathers, friends, etc. and insist that these colorist males get some help to cure them of this damaging idolatry because it's KILLING the spirits of LOTS of black girls and bw. Bm could cure this fetish in themselves IF they chose to do so and so can the bw who have this fetish."
I don't know why folks believe that it's only these artists that are like that. They were self-hating negroes BEFORE they became famous. There are many of these types in other walks of life. I once saw a girl make a comment online that she did't see anything wrong with bm having a preference for lighter-skinned women. She said that her boyfriend has mentioned his preference for lighter women to her, and she is dark-skinned, so to her it doesn't mean anything. Unfortunately for this young woman, she couldn't realise that he was probably not going to marry her, despite the fact that she kept on insisting to us that they were in love with each other. He saw her as less than due to her skin hue, so had no problem screwing her, but when it came time to settle down, the person he'd rather have as wife and mother of his kids was going to look like the woman he saw as better. She was too stupid to see that she wasn't that woman.
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"On another note, there's a big ruckus about the new Disney princess: Princess Tiana who's a black woman. Her love interest in this movie is a white-skinned male and already factions in the black "community" are threatening to boycott the movie, saying that the prince should be a bm. This irks me to the max because on the one hand, prominent bm do not generally choose bw as mates and lift bw up and when others try to do it, they're determined to try to block us being lifted up."
There are enough black filmakers who can make a black cartoon if they wanted to. The complaints here has nothing to do with showing black love. It is about showing a black prince. BET makes all these programmes and fills them with latina and asian women, yet every single one of the males are black, so we know it's not really about having a diverse cast. Additionally, it shouldn't be....it's called BET for a reason(that is another show that black women seem to have a problem boycotting). And anyway, why SHOULD Disney be interested in making a cartoon showing black love. It is NOT their responsibilty. They are out to make money!
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"These are probably the same people pissed off at Halle over "Monster's Ball" and her Oscar and her white man lol."
I wasn't a fan of the graphic sex scenes, but black folks weren't complaining about that. They only pretended to. The real anger was that it was with a white man. Black men were just so angry that this their prized 'black' woman, apparently every black man in America's dream, was getting it good from some white fella.
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"Are some black people afraid of what message this will send to black women and girls?"
That is what the black folks moaning about the film are worried about. They are also worried about what message it might send to the young non-bm. That you know, a black girl could be your princess too, and you could be her prince.
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"AA women really need to show their natural BEHINDS about this situation. This movie will lift the spirits of so many young black girls, but once again these black factions are ONLY concerned about bm. AA women, as a group, are NEVER going to rise much at all as long as they allow these bm to keep stepping on our backs as they move on up. If these males want a Disney black prince, why don't they deal directly with Disney without trying to use this bw character as their leverage???? They're always hiding behind a bw, whining "me too, me too!" They're always trying to siphon power from bw, instead of dealing directly with other men. MEN deal directly with other MEN."
Black women, by and large, are FOOLS. Sorry if it offended anyone, but it has to be said. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.......Black women keep on getting 'fooled' so many times, yet they keep on tolerating it. It's not like many of us don't know what is happening. Had the roles ben reversed and it had been a black prince with a non-black princess, you know folks like Jesse da Baby Daddy would be hailing it as a sign of 'how far we've come'.
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roslynholcomb said...
"I think the problem with all these various rappers and whatnot is that black women are not the primary or even secondary consumers of hip-hop, so we don't have much impact on their sales and they know this."
I agree. They know who it is that actually puts money in their pocket, so know who they can and can't disrespect. That was the case with D.L Hughley. He knew that insulting the Rutgers Ladies was not going to upset white folks. He knew black men would continue to support him. He also knew that alot of black women would be willing to turn their eyes 'cuz he was 'married to a sista'. I can guarantee that had his wife not been black, he would have received a much harsher response from alot of black women. I could care less if a man is married to a woman as dark as a chalk board. If he disrespects black women IN AN WAY WHATSOEVER, I will actively seek to bring him failure. I don't give a hoot if anyone wants me to 'go easy on the brother'.
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Khadija said...
"I don't have a problem buying products and services from BM who are supporting BLACK wives and BLACK children."
Yes, but only if he is a decent man. If he is supporting his black wife and black kids, but is busy chasing after other women, irrespective of the race of the women he is chasing, he ain't getting my dough! I've noticed that alot of black women only see a black man cheating on his black wife as very wrong if he is doing it with another race female. If the slapper is black, many of them say that the wife should atleast be 'grateful' that he didn't step out with some Becky, Lupe, Mei Lue or Bravefeather(i.e Native American, lol).
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"However...Let me put this is very primal terms, so we're all clear: There is NO way that I'm going to subsidize some other woman. Especially if she's not Black. I refused to be pimped by males; I'm certainly not going to be pimped by some woman. And that's what all of this boils down to in my mind.
Why in the world would I take my hard-earned money...that I had to roll up out of bed and go to a job for...and give it to some Negro so he can give it to some non-Black woman?! When you support this type of Negro, the bottom line is that Becky, Lupe, J.Lo, and Mei Ling have got you working for THEM!"
I could not have said it any better. These other race women are exactly like that as well. So many white women were red hot angry at Robert De Niro when they found out he only liked black women. They were even more angry that they didn't discover it till AFTER he had become wealthy and famous. They are the same way with Gerard Butler. But many of them are trying to use the tactic that he should get a white woman, any white woman or they are going to teach him a lesson. They have even said that they would rather he got a latina or asian, but they just cannot stand the thought that he likes black women. I'm like, since his preference is quite obvious, why not just stop watching his films altogether. They don't want that. Him not having success isn't enough. As far as their concerned, he should stop, and I'm quoting them 'chasing those black .....(I won't write it). There is a reason that Robin Thicke has a propensity to cast black models in his music video. He knows who puts money in his pocket. Even the First Lady Michelle Obama named him as one of her favourite artists. I'm suspecting that it's not only because of his music, lol.
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"Black male adults don't take their issues directly to non-Black men because they are afraid of MEN. Black male adults know that they are not men. So they leave actual MEN alone."
Real men would not be foaming at the mouth over a CARTOON because of such a reason. Those who are have no place to be referring to themselves as men!
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"I somewhat disagree. First of all, I'm not sure that the bulk of Snipes' films were the sort that BW were inclined to see anyway (Blade, etc.). Second, I have NOT seen any large number of BW make a point of boycotting ANY "musical artist" who denigrates BW. OR even boycott BM "artists" who are molest Black girls, and BM "artists" who beat BW."
Look at that video that came out of Jay-Z beating a black woman reporter because he didn't like a question she asked him, or some other flimsy reason like that. I was even more disgusted by the fact that all the other black males just stood around and watched. There were hordes of them and not one of them, not even one, had enough decency to come to this woman's rescue! As for Snipes, he is at the point at which one can't even refer to his films as 'straight-to-DVD'. However, it wasn't black women boycotting him that did this. It's the fact that his films are shit!
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"I think I know the conversation you're speaking of. If we're talking about the same discussion, I was disappointed by that blogger's reaction. I got the feeling that the blogger was: (1) afraid of BW closing ranks in a way that might lead to excluding her; and (2) unwilling to voluntarily relinquish the slightest bit of priviledge, no matter how illegitimate it was."
I think I also know which blogger she was talking about. However, I wasn't in the least bit surprised by her reaction, as I had already started to notice some contradictory silliness in alot of her opinions.
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"As I told a 3rd blogger when we were talking about this issue, if there's allegedly nothing hostile about these "biracials" pointing out how distinct they are from the Black masses due to their non-Black heritage---then it shouldn't be perceived as hostile for me to identify them by their non-Black mothers.
After all, these "biracials" and those confused Black folks who carry water for "biracials" often tell us "generic, non-exotic Blacks (LOL!)" that they supposedly don't mean anything demeaning to us "generics" when they're making sure that we know that they have a non-Black parent.
Since, according to them, none of this should be taken in a hostile manner by "generic, non-exotic Blacks," it shouldn't be taken as hostile to identify these persons by their White mothers. [= "White women's children"]"
Once again, I agree. They have no problem letting everyone know that their mother is this or that other-than-black, yet when one calls them by the name, they want to throw a fit. I'd have no problem with alot of them if they want to de-identify from all things black IF they had the same approach when it came time to benefit, but they don't. When push comes to shove, I won't even have a problem supporting someone like Halle or Thandie Newton, as they have always (1) claimed blackness and (2) never tried to distance themselves, but the majority aren't like that. That said, I still wouldn't support them at the expense of black women who, ya know, look like most other black women. Even though I REALLY like her, I wasn't too pleased that Thandie Newton was cast as Condoleeza Rice in that film 'W', when they could easily have gotten someone who actually looked like her to play the part. I once came across a bunch of biracials online who were critical of the fact that Angela Basset was cast in a film as Rosa Parks some years ago. As far as I know, Rosa Parks wasn't biracial. They believed that since she was light-skinned, it means that she had some white ancestry, so they should have given it to a 'more deserving' mixed actress. I swear, I wanted to slap my screen. As far as I'm concerned, if a biracial actress can be cast as a black woman, an un-mixed sista should be able to be cast as a biracial. I don't care if she isn't even light skinned. And don't give me the line about being believable. Hollywood has never cared about proper casting when it came to black folks. Now, there are even alot of mixed race groups who now try to claim every successful black person or good-looking blck person as one of them. Some days ago, I read a coment from a young biracial woman, who had issue with the President being referred to as black. She then mentioned Halle's Oscar acceptance speech and criticised her for giving a role call of the black women who she believed had paved the way. She was angry that Ms. Berry was thanking these women while her white mother was a few feet away. She then said that had it been her who had done it, her mother would have 'taken the statuette and smacked her on the head with it'. But I'm sure this girls mother would have no problem with her daughter being cast as a black person in the film. I'm sure this girl and her mother would have a problem with her winning an oscar for a black role. But when it came time to give respect where it was due, this girl and her mother all of a sudden rememeber that she isn't black. I'm sure that if they ask for people to come so they can showcas eblack women's beauty, this girl and her mother would have no problem turning up!
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"It's been my experience that the so-called progressives and liberals are often the worst racists. Many of them think that they are somehow immune to being racist because they support "left-wing" causes. NOT."
Studies were actually done to show that in a workplace populated solely by liberals, blacks were more likely to be employed, but less likely to progress to the top, irrespectice of how well they perform. On the other hand, when it was amongst conservatives, there were going to be fewer blacks, but those employed were more likely to be rewarded for their work or more likely to progress to the top.
“I agree with you; I would like to see these creatures disappear from the industry. I see it as a matter of setting priorities with our very limited resources.”
Do not worry Khadija, the perfect storm that will destroy hip hop is about to strike. Since I love music I am on YouTube a lot and have seen comments about these creature artists like young berg. People are saying that hip hop/rap is not real music. They also complain that they promote immoral lifestyles, are unintelligent, and their cds are not worth a red cent. Of course, most of the people saying these things are white. Undoubtedly, some criticizing hip-hop are hiding their prejudice behind this honest critique. However, I do not care if these creatures are gotten rid of through music critique lynchings. I say let them go the way of disco. May their graves be desecrated.
Hello there, JaliliMaster!
Let me remind you of the comment policy here: Profanity is NOT welcome here.
You said, "I once saw a girl make a comment online that she did't see anything wrong with bm having a preference for lighter-skinned women. She said that her boyfriend has mentioned his preference for lighter women to her, and she is dark-skinned, so to her it doesn't mean anything. Unfortunately for this young woman, she couldn't realise that he was probably not going to marry her, despite the fact that she kept on insisting to us that they were in love with each other. He saw her as less than due to her skin hue, so had no problem screwing her, but when it came time to settle down, the person he'd rather have as wife and mother of his kids was going to look like the woman he saw as better. She was too stupid to see that she wasn't that woman."
My goodness. This is the perfect parable of the typical AA woman. The Negro has TOLD this woman upfront that she is NOT his dream woman. It's one thing to feel that way; but to be so insulting as to actually TELL his "girlfriend" something like that. Wow. And she still refuses to catch the hint. Wow.
As you said, "Black women, by and large, are FOOLS. Sorry if it offended anyone, but it has to be said.
At least our BF cousins in the UK seem to have enough common sense to catch the hint from the local BM, and have started making other plans for themselves. [From what I read, a much larger percentage of British Black women marry out than AA women.]
You mentioned "or Bravefeather(i.e Native American, lol)." How could I have forgotten about Bravefeather? LOL! Especially since so many AAs loooove to claim kinship with her?
Even Min. Farrakhan has the mistaken notion that Bravefeather is our friend. Well...the situation with the Cherokee Freedmen a couple of years ago temporarily made all of his references to our so-called "Red brothers and sisters" quite awkward. For those who don't know, just google "Cherokee freedmen." It'll be eye-opening.
You said, "Once again, I agree. They have no problem letting everyone know that their mother is this or that other-than-black, yet when one calls them by the name, they want to throw a fit. I'd have no problem with alot of them if they want to de-identify from all things black IF they had the same approach when it came time to benefit, but they don't. When push comes to shove, I won't even have a problem supporting someone like Halle or Thandie Newton, as they have always (1) claimed blackness and (2) never tried to distance themselves, but the majority aren't like that. That said, I still wouldn't support them at the expense of black women who, ya know, look like most other black women."
I feel the same way about Halle Berry and Thandie Newton. I stand in solidarity with people who stand in solidarity with us. On the other hand, if a "biracial" is making the point that they are NOT Black, then they should NOT be cast/allowed to play a BLACK person on-screen. But these "biracial" thieves want to have it both ways. NO!
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Hello there, JS!
You said, "Do not worry Khadija, the perfect storm that will destroy hip hop is about to strike."
From your lips to God's ears!
You said, "Undoubtedly, some criticizing hip-hop are hiding their prejudice behind this honest critique. However, I do not care if these creatures are gotten rid of through music critique lynchings."
I also don't care. Sometimes an enemy will inadvertently be of great service. I will be greatly relieved if the racists drive hip-hop back underground and on the fringes of popular culture. Good riddance to bad trash.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
support and create healthy, affirming BLACK female entertainers that we can direct our children's attention to.
I would prefer that those few BW who are willing to act regarding this issue spend that energy on lifting up those BF entertainers who are worthy of our support, AND who also look like the bulk of US.
May I present... Heather Headley http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWrBOozd9Ng
Hello there, ForeverLoyal!
Thanks for the info; I'll have to check it out!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I have had a similar conversation with my sister several times. It is worth noting that alot of the whites complaining were not able to see that alot of this Hip-Hop 'music' was nonsense when negative images of black women was pervading our screens. When they would use foul language to refer to black women, these same people had no problem with it. It's only when the women being shown in these videos started getting closer and closer to how their daughters look, did they think it was disrespectful to women. Look at how white feminists hounded Eminem. Because his words were aimed at his mother and ex-wife, both white women, white feminists all of a sudden became offended by hip-hop, yet were all so uninterested previously, when black women made complaints.
If bw don't have a problem with the men calling them foul names, then why would anyone expect for white folks to get upset at what bm call bw or at how bm denigrate bw??? If some white folks had spoken out about that, a LOT of blacks would have started screaming that black rappers have freedom of speech and that their civil rights are being violated. Let's just admit that.
Being called foul names apparently doesn't bother the bulk of AA women. They still have 'mad love' for the "brothas" who do this.
To typical whites, this is just all black folks MESS (and that's putting it nicely). Many whites do NOT understand why so many bw tolerate all of this use and abuse and still keep supporting and loving bm. Let me tell y'all something. To MOST non-AAs, this looks like some sort of sick, contorted, erotic dance between AA males and females--like some kind of twisted foreplay. Bm call bw a "b" and a "h" and bw goes into a sexual frenzy. It just looks like crazy low-life behavior to every non-AA person I've heard refer to it.
I don't think many AAs realize how non-AAs view this stuff, but this is just why many others do NOT want any connection with AAs. No other group of women in the world tolerates this kind of blatant mistreatment from their males UNLESS they're in the most rigid oppressive cultures. Even during slavery, AA women didn't tolerate it. AA women are viewed as FREE women, so the whites and Africans I've heard talk about this definitely don't understand why AA women just go along with it.
Let's be real about this. IF so many bw are FOOLS, then what can white folks do about that? However, when one of their own--a ww--is affected, they're going to put an end to it because apparently ww DO see something wrong with being defiled. The overwhelming bulk of them are ready to throw out men who do that with the trash.
It seems like we're going back and forth on this. Why is it that bw cannot stand up to bm and tell them cut this mess out? Do we need for ww to speak for us to bm? I certainly don't!!! I don't need ANY ww or any other woman to speak for me because I'm not a coward. I can tell any bm to leave me alone or I'm going to pull the plug on his behind. All that bw have to do is to stop feeding and SUPPORTING bm and that will put bm in their place because bm in general have NO POWER other than what bw give them. Bw are the chief supporters of bm. No one else is going to support or defend bm unless they can pay them $$$$$$$. That's why so many POOR AA males are in jail.
If bw ever decided to turn their backs on AA men, these males would be IN THE SOUP. This is why so many bm are terrified as they see more of us going towards non-bm. They see their life line slipping away. At the same time, they hate us for having that kind of power. They hate us because they need us so much. One thing for sure is that AA men KNOW that they can't depend on each other. They ONLY have bw, but few of them will ever say that outright to bw.
Also, I have to disagree with the anti-non-bw sentiments by some of y'all. I don't see these women (becky, lupe, mei ling or bravefeather--LOL!) as causing the problem. It's bm's (and some bw's) IDOLATRY of these women that's causing the TOTAL problem. Once the idolatry disappears, these light-bright-white goddesses fall INSTANTLY off their pedestals that idolizing bm and bw have put them on. So I can't co-sign the anger directed at them because I see that anger as misplaced.
@ Jalilimaster,
Yeah I remeber hearing of that incident in the UK. It was so ridiculous. What annoyed me was the black girls didn't bother to push hard enough but what annoyed me the most was that there were still the usual foolish black girls (like the r.kelly supporter types) who were making excuses for these worthless black boys. Some of these girls were still willing to attend the parties, spend their hard earned money to get in/buy drinks but yet, would most probably still be ignored on the dancefloor!
God help us.
@ Evia,
You deserve a medal. I couldn't have said it any better. I co-sign 100,000,000 %!!!!
One line I want to re-iterate is this:
" bm in general have NO POWER other than what bw give them."
Spot on.
@Evia:
As I've mentioned before, I'm NOT a cheek-turner. For me it's really simple: I give people whatever they give me. If it's something positive, then I reflect back something positive. But I also reflect back whatever negativity they try to dish out. This means that whenever somebody hates ME, I hate them right back. Whoever it is.
I never bought into that Dr. King foolishness about loving oppressors. Nope. Not for me. So, unlike most AAs, I'm not bashful about justified anger, hostility, AND the dreaded by Black folks who are descended from slaves word---the "H-word"---hatred.
I will hate anybody who hates ME and MINE. This starts with neo-Nazi groups and the Klan and extends to DBRBM and their enablers to the "Don't call me Black" "biracials." They're all the same to me. They all hate ME and MINE. Therefore, I don't make any distinctions between my reactions to them.
Slaves were taught by their kidnappers/rapists/enslavers to never allow themselves to feel anger or hatred. For obvious reasons. This AA mental habit of repressing NORMAL, HUMAN reactions to injustice is an unfortunate carryover from slavery.
Justified anger and resentment are SURVIVAL mechanisms---they are the signal that it's time to get off one's butt and do something about a situation! This is why I try to challenge and prompt readers to take action. This is why most of my posts end with questions/prompts for the readers.
Now, I don't spend much time thinking about people who hate me. I'm preoccupied with the people who love me; as well as my own activities. But when the people who hate, and want to oppress ME and MINE come up in conversation, then I don't bite my tongue about them.
Yes, DBRBM and their BF enablers are the primary sources of oppression for AA women. But I'm not going to ignore and give a pass to their co-conspirators among other demographics. I'm not going to try to shush aggrieved BW into biting their tongues about ANYBODY who is oppressing them.
I was originally somewhat disappointed that this conversation drifted to crown-snatching issues, etc. but obviously there must be important reasons why this keeps happening.
I prefer to turn conversations to what actions can be taken, such as pursuing abundance in one's own life, reaching out to younger BW and girls, etc. I feel that empty, no-action rant sessions are a waste of time. This is why I try to design essays that consistently challenge readers to TAKE ACTION in their own lives.
But I'm not going to shush anybody from speaking their greivance. We've already had too much shaming of BW into silence about how they really feel. Most of the time, BW are having Becky, J.Lo, Kim Kardashian, and Kimora Lee Simmons-types shoved down their throats along with the command to not be angry with these other women.
It's interesting how there's always such an outpouring when a conversation turns to Becky, Lupe, etc. I believe that part (only part) of it is the general female brainwashing that encourages women to deflect all justified anger OFF of the man who is oppressing them and onto a woman.
I see this in court all the time with criminal damage to property cases, etc. Instead of scratching the car of the guy that's cheating on them, most women will harass or attack the other woman involved in the romantic triangle.
I believe that another part of what causes the outpouring whenever Becky, Lupe, and crown-snatching comes up is that there are very few safe places where BW can say how they really feel about all of this.
I don't have much more to say about the various crownsnatchers for now. [I'll get back to them in the future. LOL!]But I'm not going to try to shush anybody else who has more to say about all of that.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Concerning the incident where pornographic images of bw were used in a UK university, I had a friend who was in that univ at the time. She was one of the girls who were upset about it. We were talking on facebook and she gave me the gist of what went down. I remeber getting a bit angry at her for not pushing it further but now when I think of it in the context of ikettes, I remeber she said that there were other black girls who were giving her and other black female students opposed to the use of the images some hassle. These ikettes were probably so desperate for atention that they were willing to let such an attack on the image of young black women to slide just so they could 'get in with one of the boys(brothas)'. These ikettes did their best to make sure the misogynistic negroes knew that they were the black girls who were supporting them (i.e. were not against the use of the images) with the hope that any of these black guys might pay them attention or ask them out. As far as I know, they never did. At the time, I did not recognise these girls as ikettes. I just felt they ' didn't want any trouble '. After taking part in the ike and ikette discussion a few posts ago, I realise that those girl were dbrbm-enablers and bw-opressors.
It's interesting how there's always such an outpouring when a conversation turns to Becky, Lupe, etc. I believe that part (only part) of it is the general female brainwashing that encourages women to deflect all justified anger OFF of the man who is oppressing them and onto a woman.
Khadija, one of my MAJOR pet peeves is that so many women (not just bw) will always go after the "other" woman, but will somehow find a way to spare the man or cut him slack. Bw are famous for this. And bm know this. They trot out all kinds of simple-minded lies to bw and bw accept what they tell them because they WANT to spare bm. A perfect example of this is that guy who intruded on the bw's meeting on that college campus and said that the reason bm date ww is because it protects them from de evil wm. The women just accepted that lie and continued to roll their eyes at becky,etc.
I'm not trying to shush bw if they have the need to grieve about their experiences with these other women. I agree that venting in a safe place is therapeutic.
However if they don't want their daughters,granddaughters and other female progeny forever to be grieving about this same situation, they need to deal with the SOURCE of the problem. The source of the problem is MAINLY bm's idolatry of the light-bright-whites. If bw can't bring themselves to break the back of the source of this problem, it will continue and get worse, as it has. It will cause bm to disrespect bw even more, as we have seen this disrespect get worse and worse.
The bottom line is that bm don't care about bw venting. That doesn't take anything from any of these bm. People who are oppressors don't care about your anger or any other feelings of yours because your feelings don't hurt them; they care about what you do to them, what you withhold from them.
Dealing with anger is a process. I hear ya that some bw are still feeling the anger and trying to process it. I dealt with any anger I had years ago about these other women year, so I ONLY focus on the source. Therefore, I'll just bow out of this conversation while other women go through the process at their own rate.
JaliliMaster said:
Even though I REALLY like her, I wasn't too pleased that Thandie Newton was cast as Condoleeza Rice in that film 'W', when they could easily have gotten someone who actually looked like her to play the part.
You know what, I had that exact same reaction at first. I was BLOWN that they cast Thandie Newton, who looks dag near white, to portray Condoleezza, who is a brown skinned sista through and through.
But I thought she did an AWESOME job in that movie. They did a great job of making her look like Condi, first off. Secondly, she didn't have a lot of lines, but the nonverbal stuff she did was HI.LAR.IOUS. She stood out the most to me out of the entire movie.
I got over my attitude about her being cast in that film pretty quickly (and I actually enjoyed that movie a LOT more than I thought I would). But in general, I agree that the casting of black people in movies is something that irritates me so bad, I try not to even think about it. LOL
---------------------------------
Khadija said:
On the other hand, if a "biracial" is making the point that they are NOT Black, then they should NOT be cast/allowed to play a BLACK person on-screen. But these "biracial" thieves want to have it both ways. NO!
High five, Khadija.
There is a young lady I am acquaintances with who is a biracial thief. Got accepted into an internship program in a metropolitan city intended for black college graduates, but she walks around with blue contacts in her head, reminding people that she's biracial and "not just black" and "you shouldn't assume I'm black just because I look it".
Well then how about you leave that BLACK internship program and give your spot to someone who is actually black? I just wanna scream "THIEF!" everytime I see her. LOL!
@Evia:
You said, "However if they don't want their daughters,granddaughters and other female progeny forever to be grieving about this same situation, they need to deal with the SOURCE of the problem. The source of the problem is MAINLY bm's idolatry of the light-bright-whites. If bw can't bring themselves to break the back of the source of this problem, it will continue and get worse, as it has. It will cause bm to disrespect bw even more, as we have seen this disrespect get worse and worse.
The bottom line is that bm don't care about bw venting. That doesn't take anything from any of these bm. People who are oppressors don't care about your anger or any other feelings of yours because your feelings don't hurt them; they care about what you do to them, what you withhold from them."
I co-sign this 1,000%. I'm been re-reading and contemplating Rev. Lisa's "Divestment" essays. I think I need to piggyback on the start she's made with those conversations, have some divestment discussions here. I've started with divestment as it relates to how BW use their time.
I've also been pondering JaliliMaster's comment about how BW generally only call themselves "boycotting" stuff they weren't going to buy anyway. She's right.
I'm thinking that we need to discuss in detail EXACTLY what we are willing to withhold from low-value and no-value BM. I'm sure that most of us (myself included) have at least a few resources that we're carelessly giving to at least one LV and NV BM that we need to stop giving.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Enlightened!
Guurl, I saw plenty of "biracial" thieves when it came to "supposed to be for BLACK students" scholarships, stipends, etc. in college and law school.
But the part that I found most galling was Black folks' consistent refusal to police this behavior. In one case, even AFTER it was pointed out. I tried to get one local Black group to start interviewing folks and asking for references before they just handed out stipend money to whoever had their hand out. [This stipend money was raised by contributions from mostly working class Black folks.]
It's really not that hard to screen out most of these "biracial" thieves. Just ask them about their "community" involvement related to Black folks---there won't be any.
Also, just check to see if any of their references are Black. They rarely have any BLACK folks who will vouch for them. This is because they're so busy keeping Black people are arms' length. It really wouldn't be that hard to screen out the vast majority of these thieves. If we had the will and self-respect to do so.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija,
You have over 100 comments. I know you said you do not like scrolling down miles of comments.
"I'm thinking that we need to discuss in detail EXACTLY what we are willing to withhold from low-value and no-value BM. I'm sure that most of us (myself included) have at least a few resources that we're carelessly giving to at least one LV and NV BM that we need to stop giving."
I've been withholding all sorts of resources ever since I read Beverly's comment about how she refuses to sign petitions in support of black men.
I'm going to be honest, I have gained so much of my power back since I started reading your blogs. Many, many of the comments have helped me see things much more clearly. Thank you!
I walk differently. My confidence level has soared through the roof. I know longer believe I have to speak to every black man who speaks first. I know longer believe I have to listen to them complain about how hard their lives are. I know longer care -or ask about any of the males in my family. I don't allow my female relatives to talk my ear off about the men in our family when we speak on the telephone.
I will probably never again sign a petition that supports black males. I didn't even bat an eye when that NFL player was held up from spending his last moments with his dying mother-in-law.
Like I said in another post, I am just marinating in my new way of thinking.
If you ladies have any other ideas of things we can do collectively, and individually in our lives to without OUR resources from people ---especially those black men who are of no value to us---let me know.
Honestly, I can't wait to get started.
"If you ladies have any other ideas of things we can do collectively, and individually in our lives to without OUR resources from people ---especially those black men who are of no value to us---let me know."
Should have read, "If you ladies have any other ideas of the things we can do collectively, and individually in our lives to withhold OUR resources from people ---especially those black men who are of no value to us---let me know.
Hello there, DeStouet!
You said, "You have over 100 comments. I know you said you do not like scrolling down miles of comments."
I'll survive. LOL! But seriously, thank you for thinking of me and my comfort. I truly appreciate it!
You said, "I've been withholding all sorts of resources ever since I read Beverly's comment about how she refuses to sign petitions in support of black men."
Isn't Beverly just the bomb! I'll have to reread her comment about that. Now that you mention it, it would make an excellent beginning template to think through all the resources that we need to withdraw. Thank you for reminding me of this.
You said, "I'm going to be honest, I have gained so much of my power back since I started reading your blogs. Many, many of the comments have helped me see things much more clearly. Thank you!
I walk differently. My confidence level has soared through the roof...Like I said in another post, I am just marinating in my new way of thinking."
Praise God! You're welcome! I'm so happy for you! I was VERY reluctant to blog because I feared that I would contribute to the (mostly) mischief online. Like many people, I don't need any more sins heaped onto my account. Oh, I'm so thankful to hear that you've found something useful in these conversations. All that is of benefit is from God; only the mistakes are mine.
{short intermission for a happy dance in celebration of your regained power}
You said, "Honestly, I can't wait to get started."
I'm also getting excited about the idea!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I think you gave a good strategy outline in the Crown post: Invest in those who uplift us, withhold our resources from those that don't. Our resources should always be directed towards things that uplift and empower black women. We should always favor one another, over others, giving each other the benefit of the doubt is crucial. I am unequivocally and unashamedly biased in favor of black women.
I think black women would be greatly served by understanding a few facts: The black community, at least as it pertains to the health, safety, welfare and SANITY of black women, does not exist and hasn't existed in my lifetime.
It is time and past time for us all to learn the lesson of Social Science 101: Deal with things as they are, not as we would have them be.
Understand a simple fact, if he didn't come from your mother, he is not your brother. This insistence on calling all black men 'brother,' puts us into a mindset of false kinship. Our kin are entitled to our support and resources, these so-called 'brothers' are not.
If you mistreat, debase or defame a black woman, you are dead to me. No questions asked. This is why I love Maya Angelou. She went to jail in support of Mike Tyson, as far as I'm concerned she ceased to exist that day. My husband has collected all of VH1s Top 100 albums; except one: Miles Davis's Birth of the Cool. I will not have that man's music in my house. You will not batter a black woman and spend my money, even if it just goes to your estate.
This is a matter of life and death. We must divest or die. It's just that simple.
Sorry, that should be 'loathe' Maya Angelou, not love.
"Our resources should always be directed towards things that uplift and empower black women. We should always favor one another, over others, giving each other the benefit of the doubt is crucial. I am unequivocally and unashamedly biased in favor of black women."
Agreed!
Since I've started incorporating this way of thinking into my life, I've noticed that there are two things happen.
(1) The men are shocked, baffled and for a few seconds speechless. I've noticed that most black men are not use to women speaking up or defending other women. They get caught off guard.
(2) The women are baffled and confused as well. Most AA women are not use to having other women come to their aid or defense when they are up against black men.
I have had several females thank me over and over again for siding with me when they were right, I've literally had to shake my head...imagining whose side I was "really" on before.
I've also discovered that when you side with a woman and ignore the male, he becomes annoyed. Most black men believes that our world revolves around them. HA!
Now I do not even acknowledge the presence of the male during a discussion.
Jalilimaster,
Now, there are even alot of mixed race groups who now try to claim every successful black person or good-looking blck person as one of them.
I know this is just more unproductive venting but this truly irks me. I have seen and heard this from white people A LOT, like the ones who insist that Obama is not really black, despite his self-identification as such. Despite the fact that if they did not know his mother were white, and if they'd seen him walking down the street before he became well-known, these same people would have been quick to lock their car doors, disapprove of him dating their daughters, et cetera.
These are the same people that will also insist that every black woman who is deemed attractive does not really look black, and must have SOME non-black ancestry. I never see them do this with black men though. They insist the one drop rule is stupid and ignorant, despite they're being the ones who created and enforced this rule.
I remember seeing a post from a white man a few years ago who was complaining that bw were responding to his personal ad even though he said he was not attracted to bw. When he wrote them back to tell him this, they said things like, "I'm not black. I'm Cuban, etc". His response, "Huh? She looked black to me."
They are thieves. It's even more annoying because these type of people don't support black folks, and make a point of supporting folks like them, yet they expect black folks to come out for them. That's why anytime I come across these other folks that insist their half-black kids be seen as bi/multi-whatever and get offended if they are referred to as black, I ask the non-black parent whether they expect that their child should be able to expect some level of support from the black community, the answer is always yes. When I ask them whether they expect whites(in the case of half-whites) to support their child the same way, they don't. I'm sure there are alot of the bi-whatever folks who were expecting black folks to support Obama 'because he is black', even though they were ever so angry that he didn't identify as biracial. Yet these same folks didn't have that same expectation of whites...
When you asked them this, did they elaborate on why they didn't expect support from the white people they so want to be accepted by and/or why they feel entitled to such from black people whom they are steadily rejecting? I guess we are supposed to just feel bad for them because they only have half-white privilege instead of full white privilege. Let them get the support from white people and other biracials.
I notice this behavior mostly from the biracial children of white women and not black women. I am not surprised giving the greater propensity of bm to worship all things nonblack when it comes to men and their greater propensity to abandon their children. A lot of these kids have no contact with their fathers or black relatives and so are even more susceptible to anti-black sentiment. By no means am I excusing this behavior. Especially not by the ones who become BOP (Black On Paper) so they can qualify for programs aimed to help black people.
But they are not the only ones in the "Not Black Olympics". We have a caste system here and no one is lower than native black Americans who are descended from slaves. The biracials are quick to point out their non-blackness, the foreign blacks, their children, and grandchildren are quick to point out how "unblack" they are, and even us "regular generic" black folk are forever falling all over ourselves to say how we're not as black as other people: I grew up in the suburbs, I don't listen to black music, I don't use street slang, etc, etc.
Meanwhile black people are spending hundreds of tests on genetic admixture tests so they can claim that white or Indian ancestry. Big deal. You are .05% non-black, just like every other descendant of slaves in this country.
Personally, I would not waste my time or money to find out that some of these slave owners might have been my ancestors. I certainly would not then go and seek some sort of "reunion" with the white relatives of these slave masters and be surprised to learn they didn't have any intention of welcoming me into the family.
As for the biracial, multicultural theft. I wonder what can be done to stop this. In most cases the people who administer these programs probably don't care or are even glad that so many of the recipients are not "generic" black folks but probably some wonder about legal issues that might arise if they screen them out. I know that with Native American programs, claiming your 1/300th Indian heritage does not cut it. You have to be on the tribe's official roster. We don't have any thing like that. I wonder if suits could be brought for these programs violating their missions and committing fraud. If funds were donated in support of programs for those "historically disadvantaged in America" then giving awards to the anything but black crew could be a form of fraud.
__________________
Enlightened,
"you shouldn't assume I'm black just because I look it"
The next time that comes out of that biracial thief's mouth, I would have no problem saying, "Oh, I assumed you were black because you self-identified yourself as black when you applied for and accepted a position with a program designed for black graduates."
Hello there, Ayona!
You said, "I notice this behavior mostly from the biracial children of white women and not black women. I am not surprised giving the greater propensity of bm to worship all things nonblack when it comes to men and their greater propensity to abandon their children. A lot of these kids have no contact with their fathers or black relatives and so are even more susceptible to anti-black sentiment. By no means am I excusing this behavior. Especially not by the ones who become BOP (Black On Paper) so they can qualify for programs aimed to help black people."
This has traditionally been my experience (= the most anti-Black "biracials" are BM's offspring). HOWEVER, I'm coming to the sad conclusion that this is no longer the case. I can tell from their statements, that some of the BF-IRR "evangelicals" are raising anti-Black "biracials."
I've been extremely disturbed by some of the comments I read at various blogs from some of the commenters who are BF-IRR evangelists. They claim to be pro-BW, but they are actually the mirror image of the BM who worship all things non-Black.
It's clear to me that a percentage of these BF-IRR evangelicals have overall anti-Black sentiments. If I remember correctly, JaliliMaster made the comment in another conversation that a lot of BW are for "empowerment" for themselves ONLY.
She's right. One can hear from their comments that some of the BF-IRR evangelicals never really had any affection for Black people. Only hatred. Hatred that they disguise by claiming to be merely speaking against the VERY REAL atrocities that BM are committing against BW and children.
Not that these women really care about Black children. The only children they actually care about, or have any real affection for, are "biracial" children. This is clear from the CONSTANT interjection of worshipful references to "beautiful, innocent" "biracial" children.
Note that all-Black, "generic" children are almost never referred to as "beautiful" and "innocent." Black children's suffering is just a club to use to hit BM in the head. Similar to the way that BM use BW's suffering (ONLY if it was inflicted by WM) as a club to hit WM in the head.
It makes me wonder if these women were viciously teased by the "acting Black crew" in their youth. It makes me wonder if it's partially the result of being politically out of step with the majority of AAs. It makes me wonder about a lot of things that are underlying what they say.
You said, "But they are not the only ones in the "Not Black Olympics". We have a caste system here and no one is lower than native black Americans who are descended from slaves. The biracials are quick to point out their non-blackness, the foreign blacks, their children, and grandchildren are quick to point out how "unblack" they are, and even us "regular generic" black folk are forever falling all over ourselves to say how we're not as black as other people: I grew up in the suburbs, I don't listen to black music, I don't use street slang, etc, etc."
This is why I'm proudly, and LOUDLY in support of us "generic," "non-exotic" AAs! It bothers me that, historically AND now, a large percentage of the people leading and preaching to us are not COMPLETELY US.
I've raised this issue with some of the "partial outsider" bloggers that I respect. I'm thankful for their contributions to AA women's uplift. And these partial outsiders are filling a vacuum that was previously empty in terms of leadership. However, this is still part of the same caste system that leaves those of US (native, generic, non-exotic, unmixed) who are fully US at the bottom of the totem pole.
You said, "Meanwhile black people are spending hundreds of tests on genetic admixture tests so they can claim that white or Indian ancestry. Big deal. You are .05% non-black, just like every other descendant of slaves in this country.
Personally, I would not waste my time or money to find out that some of these slave owners might have been my ancestors. I certainly would not then go and seek some sort of "reunion" with the white relatives of these slave masters and be surprised to learn they didn't have any intention of welcoming me into the family."
Yeah. There's something truly pathetic about the motives that are going into these testing decisions. I'm mildly curious about what specific African ethnicity my ancestors came from. But the rest of those folks in my genetic makeup can remain unknown to me. And I won't lose a wink of sleep not knowing much about them.
You said, "As for the biracial, multicultural theft. I wonder what can be done to stop this. In most cases the people who administer these programs probably don't care or are even glad that so many of the recipients are not "generic" black folks but probably some wonder about legal issues that might arise if they screen them out. I know that with Native American programs, claiming your 1/300th Indian heritage does not cut it. You have to be on the tribe's official roster. We don't have any thing like that. I wonder if suits could be brought for these programs violating their missions and committing fraud. If funds were donated in support of programs for those "historically disadvantaged in America" then giving awards to the anything but black crew could be a form of fraud."
This is something that we have to address INFORMALLY, and SILENTLY. One incident that I'm really proud of our people for:
A coworkers' husband is also an attorney. He works at a huge, White firm, and is still a normal, pleasant BLACK person. We're all proud non-exotic, "generics." LOL!
When he was in law school he was part of a Black student committee that had been set up to give Black applicants a second chance at admission at that particular White law school. {raised fist salute to our activist predecessors that made this sort of thing possible}
Well, he and his posse on that "2nd chance at admission for Blacks" committee made a point of discarding ALL the 2nd chance applications from those "biracials" and "exotic" foreign-origin applicants that made a point of emphasizing how different they are from us "generic" Black folks!
Of course, they didn't say that's what they were doing. They didn't make any announcements. They just quietly did what needed to be done to protect our people's interests from the theft of our hard-won resources.
Alhamdulilah!! [Praise God!!] May God continue to bless this PROUD "GENERIC" BLACK MAN and his posse in their personal lives and careers! Ameen! [Amen!]
We just need more of us to quietly protect our people's interests.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
HOWEVER, I'm coming to the sad conclusion that this is no longer the case. I can tell from their statements, that some of the BF-IRR "evangelicals" are raising anti-Black "biracials."
I've observed much the same, unfortunately. When I first came on line more than a decade ago, most of the black women I encountered in interracial relationships were more like me; we met a man we liked and he happened to be of another race. Or, we chose to cast a wide net and encountered men of all races.
I would occasionally encounter a black woman with one of these so-called preferences, but it didn't happen all that often. Now it seems almost epidemic. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. White supremacy has always been a many-headed Hydra.
As I've said many times before, while we're looking askance at black men and their preferences for all things white and calling them 'damaged beyond repair.' It makes no sense to assume that black women, who are raised in the same communities would not have taken on some damage themselves. Contrary to popular belief, many black women have developed these 'preferences' for the exact same reason that black men have; white supremacy. Unless and until we examine these motives they will remain the vulnerable underbelly of the black female empowerment movement.
There are many damaged women on these boards spouting interracial rhetoric. As you've noted before, they may well be frightening many self-respecting black women away. They don't believe that they can cast a wide net and remain proud of their blackness. And why would they when there are so many who clearly chose this route out of anything but pride, dignity and self-respect.
@Roslyn:
You said, "Unless and until we examine these motives they will remain the vulnerable underbelly of the black female empowerment movement"
This is a serious problem. On many levels. First of all, these anti-Black BF-IRR commenters are muddying the waters of the BF empowerment message. They are using the BF empowerment message as a cover story for preaching White supremacy. [I talked about this before in my Open Letter to Those Who Support BW Empowerment Blogs post.]
They are preaching that Interracial Relationship BY ITSELF Automatically = BW's Empowerment.
In my opinion, these commenters have distorted Evia's and other BF pioneer bloggers' message.
From my reading, what the White-worshippers are saying is NOT what Evia and other pioneers have been saying. Not at all. The pioneer bloggers have been talking about BW being FREE to choose QUALITY men, of whatever race, color, ethnicity. They have also pointed out the reality that, on a patriarchal planet, the most important life-choice that woman makes is her choice of mate.
I agree with the pioneers' message. I'm saying:
*Freedom of choice in terms of BW's relationships = empowerment.
*BW choosing a QUALITY man, irrespective of race, color, etc. = empowerment.
*BW avoiding shooting themselves in the foot by including QUALITY WM (just like other QUALITY men) as potential husbands = empowerment.
You said, "As you've noted before, they may well be frightening many self-respecting black women away."
This is another huge problem. They are turning away the BW who MOST need to hear the REAL message of empowerment, including the message of relationship freedom of choice. As I said earlier, these White-worshipping BW are going to seek out IRR no matter what. They aren't trapped in the hell-zone of "nothing but a BM."
I'm trying to reach and help free the minds of self-respecting BW who are trapped and SUFFERING due to "nothing but a BM" thinking. These White-worshipping BW are obstructing my efforts by scaring self-respecting BW away from the lifeboat of relationship freedom of choice.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Wow. This insidious element of white-worshiping black women in the BWIRE moment that Khadija and Roslyn observed just made my blood crawl. Sometimes I wonder if there is anything that can be done about this element other than screening and excluding them. However, this gangrenous element is spreading.
I know this might sound terrible, but maybe black (AA) pride is just doomed to go the way of the dodo bird and Tasmanian wolf. BWIRE bloggers are constantly pointing out that the black community really despises black women and places black men and their interest as paramount. They also mention that the black community has long been slain. How can we expect black women to feel proud of a community that is in ruins and has a parasite/host relationship with them? I still firmly believe that people don’t choose to dislike themselves. We were not born this way. Something tragic happened along the way. However, if we use excuses like this to cover a foul stench such as self-hate we would be like the DBR black men. I don’t know the solution to this problem besides screening and exclusion.
"Well, he and his posse on that "2nd chance at admission for Blacks" committee made a point of discarding ALL the 2nd chance applications from those "biracials" and "exotic" foreign-origin applicants that made a point of emphasizing how different they are from us "generic" Black folks!"
At first, I didn't get all of the hoopla over biracials. Reading the above cleared it up a bit. If someone refuses to identify as black (for whatever reason), the should not be entitled to benefits aimed at black people.
Should have read, "If you ladies have any other ideas of the things we can do collectively, and individually in our lives to withhold OUR resources from people ---especially those black men who are of no value to us---let me know.--Destouet
I have a few ideas myself. If you like, email me. I'm looking for contributors to my new bw empowerment website. I'm going to leave the marry or date out issue alone, though. I used a magazine style theme so it's too big to call it a blog. Also, what area of the country do you live in? I planning to take this offline.
Concerning P. Diddy/Sean Combs:
I read about that on Gina's blog last night. I'm positive that he knew about it. He doen't seem like the type to be involved in something and not know what's going on. And furthermore, as others have pointed out, he has a history of puting every other race of woman in his ad campaigns except for black women, not even light-skinned identifyably black women. I stopped supporting him a long time ago. What kind of man drops his seeds all over the place and NEVER marries any of his children's moms? I don't appreciate the way he has treated Kim Porter AT ALL, even though she allows it. So I will not be buying any of his products and will encourage others to do the same.
Re Kimora Lee Simmons:
Maybe I've missed something but where did KLS say that she hated or had disdain for black women? I would think that it's incredibly sad if she does considering that her daughters are black. Just asking for clarification. Not that I'm a fan of hers. I always thought that her over-the top personality was an attempt to compensate for lack of talent/intelligence.
Re Biracials:
I had a conversation with someone about this the other day. We were talking about Tiger Woods. The person was saying that she was so proud of Tiger. When I pointed out that he has NEVER claimed his blackness but was always accepted and applauded by the black community, she said that he has the right to claim all of his ancestory. SMH. As if there is no historical precence for blacks in America trying to "claim all of their ancestory" in an effort to be anything but black. Why do we continue to embrace those who have shown through their actions and in even some instances have said that they want no part of us?
As a light-skinned black woman I acknowledge that there is a such thing as light-skinned privilege in the black community. To deny that would be acting in bad faith. I remember the conversation that Jaililimaster referred to at that other blogger's house. I remember that you and I were the only light skinned women to speak out against the foolishness. I was disappointed in her, as well as some of the other bloggers who tried to minimize the impact that colorism has had on darker-skinned black women. Or they refused to outright denounce the EVIL that it is and the harm that it creates. You know I've had folks ask me why I care so much because I benefit from it. SMH. As a proud black woman, any affront on black womanhood is an affront on me. Righteous people stand for justice, EVEN WHEN THEY BENEFIT FROM THE INJUSTICE, maybe even moreso.
Peace and Solidarity,
Tasha
Hello Khadija,
Re anti black female IRR
This is an excellent point and has given me something to think about. I haven't noticed this as much as I have some BF IRR who seem to have what I think someone mentioned earlier in a post- the attitude that I have mine, but you can't get yours.
I am paraphrasing, but they will say that they are IR married or dating, but then ruminate on the same drivel that damaged BM spout about BW in a "woe is us, we bees sooo undesireable, don't nobody want us including WM, we be po black wimmins', what iz we gon' do?"
That type of garbage and it makes me cringe.
But I will definitely have my ear to the ground when it comes to anti black BF IRR Bloggers as well.
Khadija said:
"From my reading, what the White-worshippers are saying is NOT what Evia and other pioneers have been saying. Not at all. The pioneer bloggers have been talking about BW being FREE to choose QUALITY men, of whatever race, color, ethnicity. They have also pointed out the reality that, on a patriarchal planet, the most important life-choice that woman makes is her choice of mate."
My response:
Shouldn't there be more of an effort to distinguish between and Evia and other pioneer IRR bloggers who really have good intentions and mean black women well and those other BW-IRR "evangelicals" who are really using the IRR issue to mask their hatred of all things black? Because I think alot of people are confused about the difference.
Hello there, JS!
You said, "Wow. This insidious element of white-worshiping black women in the BWIRE moment that Khadija and Roslyn observed just made my blood crawl. Sometimes I wonder if there is anything that can be done about this element other than screening and excluding them. However, this gangrenous element is spreading."
Well, I don't want to make unnecessary enemies for the movement. I don't think that it's necessary to try to screen and exclude these folks at this point. That would simply provoke unnecessary infighting that the Ikes and Ikettes would LOVE to try to exploit.
At this point, I don't feel that the White/"biracial"-worshippers are enemies of the budding BW's empowerment movement. Excluding them could convert them into enemies. I think the answer (for now) is to do what I've been trying to do: Whenever I see somebody promoting distortion, I make every effort to clarify what I'M saying, and the message that I'M promoting.
I would say that the situation is similar to what inevitably happens with political movements (and religions). There are always folks who distort the original message; and then run with that distorted message. Sometimes the distortion is intentional; most of the time it is unintentional. I don't think that these women are deliberately trying to harm the movement, or turn other BW away from the empowerment message.
You said, "I know this might sound terrible, but maybe black (AA) pride is just doomed to go the way of the dodo bird and Tasmanian wolf...How can we expect black women to feel proud of a community that is in ruins and has a parasite/host relationship with them? I still firmly believe that people don’t choose to dislike themselves. We were not born this way. Something tragic happened along the way."
Yes, something tragic happened. However, I'm not talking about BW feeling proud "of a community." I'm talking about BW being proud of being BLACK. I'm talking about BLACK women being proud and comfortable within their BLACK selves. I believe that most Black folks have lost/abandoned/never had racial self-respect. Nevertheless, I will still continue to call for BLACK self-respect.
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Hello there, Tasha212!
You said, "Re Kimora Lee Simmons: Maybe I've missed something but where did KLS say that she hated or had disdain for black women? I would think that it's incredibly sad if she does considering that her daughters are black. Just asking for clarification. Not that I'm a fan of hers. I always thought that her over-the top personality was an attempt to compensate for lack of talent/intelligence."
If you're willing to invest your time in this, just read through interviews with her. The Tiger Woods-esque attitude of disdain for Blacks fairly reeks through.
You said, "I remember the conversation that Jaililimaster referred to at that other blogger's house. I remember that you and I were the only light skinned women to speak out against the foolishness. I was disappointed in her, as well as some of the other bloggers who tried to minimize the impact that colorism has had on darker-skinned black women."
I think some of the women in that conversation were preoccupied with maintaining the "we're all in it together" posture at all costs. Along with BW's traditional preoccupation with looking like we're being "fair." I found it fascinating that so many appeared to feel that telling the truth about colorism would somehow break our unity. Well, it's not "unity" if some participants' concerns are being ignored. That's NOT unity; it's silence.
You said, "Shouldn't there be more of an effort to distinguish between and Evia and other pioneer IRR bloggers who really have good intentions and mean black women well and those other BW-IRR "evangelicals" who are really using the IRR issue to mask their hatred of all things black? Because I think alot of people are confused about the difference."
As I said above, for now I think the best policy when somebody says something distorted is to stop and clarify what one's true message is. NOT to (directly) attack the speaker. Simply to clarify that what they're talking about is not what you're talking about.
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Hello there, Aphrodite!
Keep your ear to the ground! LOL!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"It's clear to me that a percentage of these BF-IRR evangelicals have overall anti-Black sentiments. If I remember correctly, JaliliMaster made the comment in another conversation that a lot of BW are for "empowerment" for themselves ONLY."
I remember even mentioning that it seems that alot of these women who 'used to' have a problem with colourism now try to shut down any discussion of it, as they believe that since their biracial children are going to benefit, we might as well continue along that line. At the time, one poster said that she didn't think they were doing it for selfish reasons, but instead, were just looking out for for their offspring. I beg to differ.
I remember on one of the IR blogs that I used to go to. A discussion about Soledad O'Brien came up. Some people had issue with the fact that this 1/4 black woman was doing a documentary on being Black in America, which contained alot of misleading 'facts'. All of a sudden, some posters came down on the 'complainers'. Me being me, I gave my own two cents. Unfortunately, all hell broke lose when I mentioned Obama, and how him being mixed-race was helping him. Some woman started arguing with me that he isn't light-skinned, but is in fact, 'brown-skinned'. I was like, are you kidding me? All of a sudden, they started talking about how black folks who complain about colourism should get off their behinds and stop criticising those light-skined/mixed-race folks who get some sort of a leg up. I was just shaking my head. However, my disgust turned to anger when one woman accused those of us who were simply stating the truth of 'hating' biracial children. We were hating on 'their' babies. I told her to shut up!
On this same blog, the blog owner once gave an example using a story which was really about class priviledge, to demonstrate how bw can use white male priviledge(of their husbands) to their advantage. I kept trying to tell her that white male priviledge was all about racism and sexism, but she and most of the others on the site kept telling me that I was just being PC!
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"As a light-skinned black woman I acknowledge that there is a such thing as light-skinned privilege in the black community. To deny that would be acting in bad faith. I remember the conversation that Jaililimaster referred to at that other blogger's house. I remember that you and I were the only light skinned women to speak out against the foolishness. I was disappointed in her, as well as some of the other bloggers who tried to minimize the impact that colorism has had on darker-skinned black women. Or they refused to outright denounce the EVIL that it is and the harm that it creates. You know I've had folks ask me why I care so much because I benefit from it. SMH. As a proud black woman, any affront on black womanhood is an affront on me. Righteous people stand for justice, EVEN WHEN THEY BENEFIT FROM THE INJUSTICE, maybe even moreso."
I think 'cuz in that discussion I mentioned that my paternal grandfather was white, some people may have inferred that I was light-skinned. I'm not. I'm a Gabby Union/Nia Long complexion.
And I remember some half-white half-mexican female creature who came on the site, a site which, might I add, WAS 'MEANT' TO BE ABOUT BW EMPOWERMENT ,to give her five cents. It seems she took offence with someone(if I remember well, it was Khadija) who made a reference to white women's children. When I saw that this bw blogger was more than willing to let this creature invade the discussion and spout off, while at the same time. trying to talk over some of the black women who were giving a different opinion, I knew that my days at her blog were numbered.
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How to know the difference between empowerment blogs that might talk about black women expanding their choices(whatever those choices are, be they in terms of relationships, hobbies, careers, etc) and the IR evangelism type is this.(I'll use Evia's as the template). Most of what Evia talks about concerns the improvement of black women's lives. She never present the idea that the act of 'getting a man', irrespective of his race, is the empowering act. It is the process of improving ones life, in one's approach to life, people etc., that is empowering. On many of these other blogs(such as the one I mentioned previously), it is all about 'getting a non-black man'. It is no different to all those magazines that preach on about what sistas should do to 'get a brotha!' As far as I'm concerned, they are in the same category. The easy way to tell is that they usually have different standards for non-black men than they do black men. They'd be happy with any man, as long as he was a race other than black, and he was not a criminal. This is despite the fact that they probably haven't dated the best quality black men. They are the types that would admonish a black woman, say, in her 30's because she wasn't keen on the idea of dating a 60 year old white man. They are also the types, just like most black people one encounters online, that claim to work in this or that fortune 500 company, (yet needs advice on how to stretch a meagre income), has some white/hispanic fiance who is a doctor/lawyer, engineer/accountant/company big-man(yet needs advice on how to get a man/how to know if a man is flirting with you), is dating/only attracted to the Brad Pitt-alikes, Gerard Butler-alikes etc(yet is a cupcake away from obesity, and will foam at the mouth if you as much as mention to them that their lack of attention to their physical apperance might be putting other men(black or white) off. It is the same ones who want to use their blogs to rant and rave about other race women, every living, breathing black man, yet never give black women any constructive advice....because they don't have any! They are also the same ones who will never admit that maybe, just maybe, black women have to take some responsibility for their inaction which has resulted in alot of the negative things we see today.
I remember some poster saying that black women should also consider dating the arty types, who might not have any money, might not have any education, but are well-learned and well-travelled. They are, afterall, just struggling artists. I told her that rappers who havent's yet 'made it' are also just struggling artists, afterall, who are we to decide who gets to be called an artist and who doesn't?
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On another note, I just wanted to let folks know that we should take care where we get advice from. I came across a certain black male internet scavenger not too long ago who claims to be a personal trainer and also works part time in a gym/fitness centre. This man, I noted, constantly berates black women over weight, and seems to think that latina and asian women are the ideal partners for black men. When I asked him whether he had actually made any effort to get more black women to attend his gym, his reply? That he actually did the opposite. Apparently, anytime a black woman came to register at his gym, he would make an effort to dissuade her. He seems to revel in the idea of black women not improving on their physical health. The site off an obese black woman made him laugh. That's why it always comes across as suspect to me whenever I hear black men(& women, but they do it for different reasons) try to pretend that being overweight is a normal black thing then blame black women's weight for the reason they don't date them.
Hello there, JaliliMaster!
You said, "I remember even mentioning that it seems that alot of these women who 'used to' have a problem with colourism now try to shut down any discussion of it, as they believe that since their biracial children are going to benefit, we might as well continue along that line. At the time, one poster said that she didn't think they were doing it for selfish reasons, but instead, were just looking out for for their offspring. I beg to differ."
{long, disgusted sigh} Yeah. BW are quick to betray other BW. In general, most people are totally unprincipled. When they're complaining about an injustice, they're only complaining because it's harming them at the moment. Once the heel is lifted from their neck, all is right with the world as far as they're concerned.
There's an example of this going on right now within the BAM blogosphere. [Yes, SisterSeeking/Miriam, I AM "going there"! LOL!] There's a BF Muslim blogger who previously (on occasion) was willing to mention the DEADLY anti-BF sexism within the BAM ummah.
Well, now that she has married (or remarried), suddenly all is well and she has nothing more to say about this issue. And she now wants to silence those other people, including BM, who insist upon speaking out about the BM predators/criminals within our midst. This broad (and her husband) recently came to Abdur-Rahman Muhammad's blog A Singular Voice (it's on my sidebar) to lecture him about adab (Islamic etiquette).
You see, these Islamically educated fools feel that it's bad manners to mention (as he has) that a prominent Black imam has an extensive criminal history as a convict that he never disclosed.
This overwhelming concern for the manners of not speaking poorly of other Muslims as opposed to any comprehension of the concept of public safety, is part of how the Pakistani demon in New York was able to marry 3 times (while beating each wife in turn). He recently beheaded the 3rd wife. However, the Muslim community in his area observed "proper" manners and didn't "backbite" him as a violent beast. So his honor was preserved.
{insert primal scream here}
You said, "And I remember some half-white half-mexican female creature who came on the site, a site which, might I add, WAS 'MEANT' TO BE ABOUT BW EMPOWERMENT ,to give her five cents. It seems she took offence with someone(if I remember well, it was Khadija) who made a reference to white women's children. When I saw that this bw blogger was more than willing to let this creature invade the discussion and spout off, while at the same time. trying to talk over some of the black women who were giving a different opinion, I knew that my days at her blog were numbered."
Yeah, that was...fascinating to watch.
You said, "How to know the difference between empowerment blogs that might talk about black women expanding their choices(whatever those choices are, be they in terms of relationships, hobbies, careers, etc) and the IR evangelism type is this.(I'll use Evia's as the template). Most of what Evia talks about concerns the improvement of black women's lives. She never present the idea that the act of 'getting a man', irrespective of his race, is the empowering act. It is the process of improving ones life, in one's approach to life, people etc., that is empowering. On many of these other blogs(such as the one I mentioned previously), it is all about 'getting a non-black man'. It is no different to all those magazines that preach on about what sistas should do to 'get a brotha!' As far as I'm concerned, they are in the same category. The easy way to tell is that they usually have different standards for non-black men than they do black men. They'd be happy with any man, as long as he was a race other than black, and he was not a criminal. This is despite the fact that they probably haven't dated the best quality black men. They are the types that would admonish a black woman, say, in her 30's because she wasn't keen on the idea of dating a 60 year old white man. They are also the types, just like most black people one encounters online, that claim to work in this or that fortune 500 company, (yet needs advice on how to stretch a meagre income), has some white/hispanic fiance who is a doctor/lawyer, engineer/accountant/company big-man(yet needs advice on how to get a man/how to know if a man is flirting with you), is dating/only attracted to the Brad Pitt-alikes, Gerard Butler-alikes etc(yet is a cupcake away from obesity, and will foam at the mouth if you as much as mention to them that their lack of attention to their physical apperance might be putting other men(black or white) off. It is the same ones who want to use their blogs to rant and rave about other race women, every living, breathing black man, yet never give black women any constructive advice....because they don't have any! They are also the same ones who will never admit that maybe, just maybe, black women have to take some responsibility for their inaction which has resulted in alot of the negative things we see today."
Ooooh, JaliliMaster, you're telling on some folks! LOL! Seriously, I'm happy to see that other people have noticed the patterns. The signals to look for that you're describing are important ones.
You said, "On another note, I just wanted to let folks know that we should take care where we get advice from."
YES! BW have a multitude of vampires surrounding them. Be they vampires that drain material, emotional, social, spiritual resources from them. Predators LOOK for already-wounded prey. It makes their hunt easier. Sometimes they "fatten" the BF sheep for the slaughter by DELIBERATELY giving BW bad advice. ("I like some 'meat' on a woman's bones...BW are just naturally 'thick'," etc.).
Many BW will do this to other BW. I've watched my former supervisor advised a confused, younger BW coworker that she should marry the no-working bum that she was shacking with who beats her. The supervisor is married to a no-working Negro felon who beats her.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"YES! BW have a multitude of vampires surrounding them. Be they vampires that drain material, emotional, social, spiritual resources from them. Predators LOOK for already-wounded prey. It makes their hunt easier. Sometimes they "fatten" the BF sheep for the slaughter by DELIBERATELY giving BW bad advice. ("I like some 'meat' on a woman's bones...BW are just naturally 'thick'," etc.)."
BW are even worse at this. They will try and encourage a fellow black woman to become overweight, and use admonishments such as...."so you can look like a REAL black woman". Sorry, but in my book, a woman should not be obese! Similarly, they would refer to a slim/medium black woman as skinny, to present her in a negative light. I once saw a black woman scold a black man online because he mentioned that his girlfriends were usually below a certain size, and he didn't understand where this whole ghetto booty love(his words) came from as fellow black men usually had a different opinion in private. I don't buy the notion that black men like fat women. Look at all the black women they drool after. They are within a particular range. It seems that all of a sudden, words like curvy have been bent to mean something totally different(even fat white women do this).
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"Many BW will do this to other BW. I've watched my former supervisor advised a confused, younger BW coworker that she should marry the no-working bum that she was shacking with who beats her. The supervisor is married to a no-working Negro felon who beats her."
Misery loves company. People who are unhappy tend to draw or attempt to draw others into their cycle of unhappiness. Similarly, I've also noticed that for others who are enjoying themselves, they sometimes like to be stingy. I know of a story of a black woman who had a very good job who was married to a reasonably wealthy white man. A sista asked her if she could introduce her to someone similar, as she wanted to settle down, and the guys she had dated in the past, from her neighbourhood were....let's just say, undesirable. This other sista's reply was "no, just get a black man. You know if too many of us start dating white men brothas will start to get angry".
I also know of another black woman who had a knack for setting up sistas with negroes no one should look twice at. Usually unemployed, criminal record etc. She was setting them up with people she called sistafriends. Yet, when one takes a look at the type of men she dates, it was always the Denzel, Will Smith types, always had a very good job etc. She would NEVER introduce any of her friends to these types of guys, even if she was already in a relationship, but would be more than happy to set them up with LV's or NV's. It was because she got pleasure from being the envy of her friends. And the worst part of it was that her friends held her opinion in high regard as she seemed to always have what they wanted in terms of romantic relationships.
Hello Khadija,
"You said, "I know this might sound terrible, but maybe black (AA) pride is just doomed to go the way of the dodo bird and Tasmanian wolf...How can we expect black women to feel proud of a community that is in ruins and has a parasite/host relationship with them? I still firmly believe that people don’t choose to dislike themselves. We were not born this way. Something tragic happened along the way."
Yes, something tragic happened. However, I'm not talking about BW feeling proud "of a community." I'm talking about BW being proud of being BLACK. I'm talking about BLACK women being proud and comfortable within their BLACK selves. I believe that most Black folks have lost/abandoned/never had racial self-respect. Nevertheless, I will still continue to call for BLACK self-respect."
I am glad that you kind of clarified this. I was going to post, but I deleted it bc i was ashamed of it and I am having trouble articulating my feelings well.
I want to clarify that I would never advise a BW to do the things that Jallimaster listed and I am still processing when it comes to being open to other men. I am ok with being a black person, but I am kinda lost now when it comes to defining black.
In light of all that I have learned the sexism within black history/present and how BM are now acting like demons- I would lie if I would say that I didn't feel some hatred there...
Before my realizing all of these things black had a certain set of meanings and made me feel a certain way...even though I now realize that was all due to the indoctrination of black which was skewed to the interests of BM.
But it is like that has all been shaken up, turned upside down...like the rug has been pulled out from under me again, everything's scrambled.
I know that ABCs are not the model of black...
I know that I am willing to appreciate, validate, and support other BW.
It is like I feel nothing around the words black identity. At this time I don't feel anything negative, but I don't feel anything positive either.
I am just lost when it comes to defining black in light of the divestment of BW.
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"When I asked him whether he had actually made any effort to get more black women to attend his gym, his reply? That he actually did the opposite. Apparently, anytime a black woman came to register at his gym, he would make an effort to dissuade her. He seems to revel in the idea of black women not improving on their physical health. The site off an obese black woman made him laugh."
I really hate people right now. I really do. I have met men like this in rl. It makes me so angry when unsuspecting BW deal with creeps like this.
"Similarly, I've also noticed that for others who are enjoying themselves, they sometimes like to be stingy."
I think that is hateful. I don't think iys stingy I think its demonic bc in the scenarios that you described those women were deliberately extending/increasing their "sisterfriends/mentees needless suffering and putting them in harms way esp with the ex cons/batterers. What if they had been murdered as a result of that advice?
@Aphrodite,
When I first started reading some of the comments by other readers that went into details about how black men/women are literally setting up other AA to fall for the "okey-doke" all I could do was shake my head.
Some of the stories that are being told on this site are truly disturbing and proof that evil exists in all classes.
What I've decided is that AA did not always behave in such a degrading and shameful manner. Once upon a time our community was on top if their game and making drastic moves. I hold on to that thought and keep it moving. I am not responsible for these barbaric individuals that are prancing around as victims.
With each day, I make it my mission to distance myself from people like them and anyone else regardless of race or sex that are NOT living the life they claim to be living.
"I think that is hateful. I don't think iys stingy I think its demonic bc in the scenarios that you described those women were deliberately extending/increasing their "sisterfriends/mentees needless suffering and putting them in harms way esp with the ex cons/batterers. What if they had been murdered as a result of that advice?"
They would not care. There are plenty of women who leave their children, nieces, and friends with molesters and rapists. As other women have been saying on this blog for a long time, AA women have to watch our own backs because for the most part there is no one else to do it. If you have one or two friends, respect and honor them.
Hello there, Aphrodite!
You said, "I want to clarify that I would never advise a BW to do the things that Jallimaster listed and I am still processing when it comes to being open to other men. I am ok with being a black person, but I am kinda lost now when it comes to defining black...
...But it is like that has all been shaken up, turned upside down...like the rug has been pulled out from under me again, everything's scrambled.
...I know that ABCs are not the model of black...I know that I am willing to appreciate, validate, and support other BW.
...It is like I feel nothing around the words black identity. At this time I don't feel anything negative, but I don't feel anything positive either. I am just lost when it comes to defining black in light of the divestment of BW."
I'm happy you raised this point. It brings up something really important.
I'm sorry---Offhand, I can't remember if you had mentioned a long while back that your parents are African immigrants. Please forgive me if I'm confusing you with somebody else.
If so, it makes perfect sense that "Black" would draw a blank at this point. The same applies for younger African-Americans who never grew up under "old school" African-American culture. For the past 25 years, "Black" has been made synonymous with all sorts of depravity.
As you noted, the ABCs are NOT the definition of "Blackness." However, they HAVE become the point of reference for those Black people (younger and/or of "foreign" background) who didn't get to see what living, breathing AA culture was like before large numbers of us became deranged.
It reminds me of something another reader said to one of my comments on Rev. Lisa's blog. I had been talking about how (quietly) upset and ashamed my maternal grandfather was that my grandmother had to work. And how what he REALLY wanted was to be able to provide for her in such a way that she could stay at home just like the White woman she worked as a maid for.
He wanted to do for her what that White husband was doing for the woman she worked for. And how his attitude was fairly common among AA men in his day (as well as among my Dad's peers). I recall another reader commenting that she didn't know that large numbers of AA men used to feel that way. Well, how would she know? These are "old school" AA values that aren't so common anymore.
There are still small pockets of Black folks who cleave to "old school" AA values and culture. But it's not the norm anymore. Which means that it's not the point of reference for those who didn't grow up under this culture.
For me, "Blackness" is "old school" African-American culture---all the things that were GOOD about AA culture and values. It wasn't all toxic. And the toxic points weren't non-stop toxic. There were also lots of good things to be found.
It's hard to sum up quickly, but the best outside comparison I can make is that in many ways it was similar to the good aspects of traditional Arab culture---emotional warmth, courage, hospitality, and deep generosity.
It's interesting, and reminds me of similar intangible things I've discussed in other conversations. Over the years, sometimes other Black folks are surprised to learn that I grew up (and was HAPPY to live) in an ALL-Black neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. The underlying assumption seems to be that you can't be a curious, well-rounded "world citizen" AND happy growing up within an all-Black setting.
They are shocked when I tell them that my (uneducated) maternal grandparents bought opera records for their children to listen to. That when a relative was stationed overseas in Germany during the 1950s, my grandparents would have him teach the children in the family some German when he came home to visit. All of this happened while they lived in tenements on the South Side.
All of this happened with my grandparents being HAPPY and comfortable with their OWN Black selves and AA culture. They didn't come to other people's cultural artifacts like refugees with hat in hand. They came with a sense of self-confidence, even though they were poor.
Some Black folks are amazed when I tell them that my parents sent my brother and me to the local Japanese Cultural Center as children to learn about the tea ceremony, Aikido, and a bit of Japanese. Throughout my life, I've always been curious about others, but NEVER frantic/desperate to be around them. I've also never had any interest in disappearing into another ethnic group's culture. I've got my OWN.
I didn't miss out on anything living in my ALL-Black childhood neighborhood. I was exposed to the outer world and other cultures. But NOT as a refugee who didn't have something of my OWN.
What I'm trying to express is that, in earlier decades, many AAs did NOT feel the need to abandon our own culture in order to appreciate the good things from other cultures. Not everybody was fatally poisoned with self-hatred. We were healthy enough that middle class Black folks like my parents were HAPPY living with other middle class folks in an ALL-Black neighborhood.
Any of our neighbors could have afforded to live around middle-class White people. They had no interest in doing that. Like my parents had no interest in doing that. They liked and enjoyed being among themselves. Just like most OTHER ethnic groups feel within their OWN ethnic neighborhoods.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
@ Jalilimaster,
It seems that we visit the same blogs. I can actually remember you from some of them a while ago. I remember you used to get into A LOT of arguments with some idiots online. LOL!
I remember that particular IR blogger you referred to. This is why I believe that black women should really be careful as to who we take advice from. I remeber when this IR blogger did a post along the line of 'white male priviledge and how you can benefit from it'. I was completely shocked. Some of us pointed out to her that it was a completely racist construct but we were just referred to as being politically correct (as jalilimaster mentioned). It was not too long after that that I stopped going to her blog. What annoys me is that bloggers like Evia and other sensible ir bloggers get lumped in the same boat as these other black women. Sometimes there would be some white men who would come and begin using words like the n-word and monkey to refer to black men and these women would see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I am very harsh with my criticism but I know the difference between criticising the black community or black men collectively and just being racist.
In my opinion, it is not too hard to spot these women. Jalilimaster gave some good tips. Another way is that these women are NOT PRO-BLACK WOMAN. They are just ANTI-BLACK MAN. They hardly give tips that benefit black women. They are NOT for black women making better choices in men. They are NOT for bw rejecting LV, NV and DBR men. They are just for bw marrying non-black men, most of the times, irrespective of the caliber of these men.
I was recently on a board discussion were a pro-IR bw slightly criticised 30-40 year old black women for not wanting to date 50-60 year old white men. I don't see anything wrong with dating someone much older but if a woman doesn't want to date someone who is 20-30 years older, why should she? Sometimes, these women would encurage other bw to accept any non-black guy just because he is non-black. The value that the particular guy might actually bring is never called into question. Also, another way of spotting these types of bloggers is that you could be talking about anything, and they would try to bring ir (especially to white men) into the discussion, no matter how unrelated ir is to the ACTUAL point that was being discussed.
Also, if you say anything about black women changing themselves (e.g. losing weight), they would throw a fracas!
As Khadija said, I believe that these women actually have ANTI-BLACK sentiments and the same motivation that self-hating/colour-struck/anti-black-women/DBR black men have for dating non-black women is the same or similar motivation some of these 'ir evangelists' have for dating non-black men.
Evia encourages black women to reject NV, LV and DBR men and select QUALITY partners. She encourages black women to expand their dating pool to include non-black men. Some of these other pro-ir women just encourage black women to date ir. Whether or not they date NV, Lv or DBR non-black men is not much of a concern to them. I believe that bloggers like this make it harder to encourage black women to date ir and pick quality men because a better proportion of bw have been indoctrinated with the 'nothing but a bm' mantra and so would sense these bloggers choices to be out of self-hate. That's why when I direct some of my friends to bw-ir sites, I am careful. Evia is one of the few that I recommend to them.
As for those black women who intentionally give other black women bad advice, as far as I am concerned, they are just black-women-haters. They are pro-themselves. I've also experienced a situation were a women who was in an ir discouraged other black women from being in an ir so as not to annoy the 'brothas'.
AS for those who choose to 'hook up' their bw friends with DBR men, well, as has been said already, misery loves company. For those who are in better situations but want tohers to remain in unfavourable situations/relationships, it is the reverse of 'crabs in a barrel' attitude. Basically, 'now that i've gotten here, I don't want anyone else to get here'. They only acknowledge suffering/wrongdoing/injustice when they are the ones at the receiving end.
Another thing that annoys me is when we are having converstaions and some black women with biracial children try to bring up biracial issues for us to discuss. I know there is a great possibility that I will have biracial kids but I know very well how to keep BLACK WOMEN'S issues to be about BLACK WOMEN. Personally, I view these women as thorns that need to be plucked out.
Concerning that discussion of colourism in the bc. I remember that that was the fist time I had come to this site. A link was provided from another site (i think it was from evia's site). I remeber the particular bw blogger you are refering to. I used to go to her site. I was utterly dissapointed at the stance she chose to take during that discussion. It is proof that the fact that someone claims to be pro-black woman doesn't necessarily mean that they are.
As for the half white/half mexican girl that came here and began making the conversation about herself, I remeber getting so irritated. At first, I just thought, what EXACTLY does this conversation have to do with you. I also remember her complaining and asking 'well what is so wrong with being the child of a white woman'. I remeber really wanting to give her a piece of my mind but seeing as it was the first time that I was on the blog, I just decided to respect my fingers.
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At the risk of reverting to the 'crown-stealing' discussion, I've noticed on a few occasions how black women's issues are STILL made to be about or include others especially at black women's expense. Now people have found more subtle ways of doing it. For example, about a year ago, I was at a BW blog. The blogger made a post about 'celebrating the beauty of the black woman'. She put up several pictures of beautiful black women. A commenter then made the following comment:
" Yes I really support this. It is sooo beautiful and nice to see. Yeah we REALLY need to celebrate the beauty of black and biracial women".
She then provided more pictures of 'black' women for the blogger to add. I then clicked on her user name and was directed to her page. She had a blog that was dedictaed to biracial stuff. The majority of her blog links were to other biracial bloggers especially those who concentrated on biracial issues. There was a post she did about celebrating beauty. Hers was about 'celebrating the beauty of biracial women'. I looked through the pictures. All the women were biracial women (as expected). I began to wonder, when the beauty being celebrated was that of black women, she felt the need to add herself (i.e. biracial) into the mix but when it was that of biracial women being celebrated, she did not feel the need to include black women in the mix. In the link of the pictures she sent in, ALL the women in the pictures were biracial. Some did not even look black at all. What was pitiful was that NOT A SINGLE ONE of the black women on the bw site noticed that they were being punked by this girl. They don't include you in their own so why should you include them. They don't see anything wrong with them excluding you but see everything wrong with you excluding them. They usually come up with the line that 'well aren't I ALSO black?'. It's like well, all this while you've been everything BUT black!
Another instance is with someone that my sister encountered online. It was a biracial girl complaining about the Black Italian Vogue issue. She was complaining that there were not ENOUGH biracial models in the issue. She said that most of the black models that you see in magazines are biracial so why couldn't it be the same with these ones. She then went on to say that 'don't we (biracials) have the right to see a representation of ourseleves?'. Her last bombshell was when she then said 'even if they weren't going to be ALL or MOSTLY biracial models, atleast the covers should have been biracial women'. I was just like 'what the heck!!!'. This is the BLACK italian vogue. BLACK!!! I was just like so this girl cannot even see how much what she was saying was rubbish. She had gotten so used to thinking this way and felt so comfortable saying it.
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@ Aphrodite,
I don't think you should hate people. It will not do you any good. My advice would be to sceen people closely and not just allow anyone into your circle. Most of all DEMAND RECIPROCITY! Support and uplift those who support and uplift you. Also, thos black women around you, introduce them to these blogs!!!!
Hello there, Foxycleopatra!
You mentioned, "At the risk of reverting to the 'crown-stealing' discussion, I've noticed on a few occasions how black women's issues are STILL made to be about or include others especially at black women's expense.
...What was pitiful was that NOT A SINGLE ONE of the black women on the bw site noticed that they were being punked by this girl. They don't include you in their own so why should you include them. They don't see anything wrong with them excluding you but see everything wrong with you excluding them."
Ahh, this is one of THE main distorted thought patterns that makes crown-stealing and the other forms of oppressing BW possible. BW consistently fail to demand reciprocity. This is why we get pimped and punked. Repeatedly. It also ties into the "if I'm nice to others, they'll automatically be nice to me" madness.
May we all spread the word and drive a stake through that madness once and for all! Ameen! [Amen!]
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"When I asked him whether he had actually made any effort to get more black women to attend his gym, his reply? That he actually did the opposite. Apparently, anytime a black woman came to register at his gym, he would make an effort to dissuade her. He seems to revel in the idea of black women not improving on their physical health. The site off an obese black woman made him laugh."
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That's really sick.
I've noticed black men complain about black women supposedly being overweight/obese a LOT lately. They seem to think that we all think like Mo'Nique and believe that being obese is acceptable and attractive and that they (the men) should like it also. Apparently, that's one of the reasons why they run to white girls so much. "Becky stays in the gym!" I've never heard such garbage in my life.
I remember in college, some black men on campus actually made a Facebook group saying something like "Black women on campus, please stop being lazy and go to the gym". The group is filled with all kinds of conversations about how overweight we are, how lazy we are, how white girls and asian girls have us beat in the looks department, etc. How many of them actually offered to step up and help improve the fitness of black students? How many of them would invite sistas to go running or engage in other healthy activities? NONE. But how many of them joined this group so they could make fun of black women on campus? HUNDREDS.
Methinks a lot of their "concern" about black women being overweight is not concern at all.
How SICK for a sista to finally take the first step and go to the gym and improve herself, and this loser talks her out of staying because he wants to laugh at her being overweight.
I have no words.
Hello DeStouet,
Point taken.
I knew things like this happened and some have happened to me looking back in hindsight, but I had no idea that it was so widespread. That always gets me.
Hello Khadija,
"If so, it makes perfect sense that "Black" would draw a blank at this point. The same applies for younger African-Americans who never grew up under "old school" African-American culture. For the past 25 years, "Black" has been made synonymous with all sorts of depravity.
As you noted, the ABCs are NOT the definition of "Blackness." However, they HAVE become the point of reference for those Black people (younger and/or of "foreign" background) who didn't get to see what living, breathing AA culture was like before large numbers of us became deranged."
I am AA and you are right outside of a brief sliver of time (when my dad was alive) in my immediate family - I didn't get the old school AA culture. It sounds nice- really nice.
And you are correct in that - the ABC's are all I have as a point of reference.
"It reminds me of something another reader said to one of my comments on Rev. Lisa's blog. I had been talking about how (quietly) upset and ashamed my maternal grandfather was that my grandmother had to work. And how what he REALLY wanted was to be able to provide for her in such a way that she could stay at home just like the White woman she worked as a maid for.
He wanted to do for her what that White husband was doing for the woman she worked for. And how his attitude was fairly common among AA men in his day (as well as among my Dad's peers). I recall another reader commenting that she didn't know that large numbers of AA men used to feel that way. Well, how would she know? These are "old school" AA values that aren't so common anymore."
That was me. :) I made the comment. It did shock me.
I was watching a P Grier movie the other night and fell asleep. When I awoke Sharptalk with Rev Sharpton was on. They were talking about the war between BW and BM. There was lots of look within, let a man be a man, being spouted by men and women, but the one that got me was when they talked about money.
One woman said that BW have had more opportunities than BM- so they need to cut them slack. Then they did a survey where they asked random men about being breadwinners. The men all said that they were not threatened by a woman earning more and that him and his not being a breadwinner did not lessen his manhood. All the men said something to this effect on national TV. The only BM who didn't agree had to be 70+ years old and he said, "My money is her money and her money is her money." With a smile.
That is a sharp contrast.
"It's hard to sum up quickly, but the best outside comparison I can make is that in many ways it was similar to the good aspects of traditional Arab culture---emotional warmth, courage, hospitality, and deep generosity.
...sometimes other Black folks are surprised to learn that I grew up (and was HAPPY to live) in an ALL-Black neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. The underlying assumption seems to be that you can't be a curious, well-rounded "world citizen" AND happy growing up within an all-Black setting."
These are the stories that I have heard around me usually from my moms friends or other family members when they talk about the past- how they could depend on one another, trust, how people even helped one another in tangible ways, there was safety, fun, - a whole lot that almost sounds like disneyland to me.
"I remember in college, some black men on campus actually made a Facebook group saying something like "Black women on campus, please stop being lazy and go to the gym". The group is filled with all kinds of conversations about how overweight we are, how lazy we are, how white girls and asian girls have us beat in the looks department, etc. How many of them actually offered to step up and help improve the fitness of black students? How many of them would invite sistas to go running or engage in other healthy activities? NONE. But how many of them joined this group so they could make fun of black women on campus? HUNDREDS."
But it IS NOT their responsibility. They don't HAVE to tell black wome to do anything. If a black woman cannot take the initiative on her own, she has no right, none whatsoever, to expect someone else to do it for her. The same way alot of black men expect black women to organise, protest, contribute, donate etc., for them. It is not black women's responsibility!
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"Methinks a lot of their "concern" about black women being overweight is not concern at all."
I have always known this.
My parents were old school. In fact they were so old school that I used to say that their 'school' was a log cabin. I often heard them say 'my money is her money and her money is her money too." lol
I was actually privileged to watch some 'old school' courtship rituals after my aunt's husband died. These older men came around and they always made sure to let my aunt know, by various means, that they had money and the wherewithal to take care of her. It was really interesting and eye-opening to watch.
I remember my parents talking about 'back in the day' how if a guy got a girl pregnant he had to marry her because nobody else would have him. I was totally fascinated by that because we all know the sad state nowadays where women will be quick to holler, "She tried to trap him." Our desperation has left us pitifully vulnerable. Back when one of my nieces was a young teen she was actually confronted in the supermarket by the aunt of a young man who had tried to date my niece. My sister had turned him down because he already had a child. The aunt, a fully grown woman, couldn't comprehend that my sister didn't want my niece dating a boy that already had kids. Good grief, she was only sixteen years old! What kind of foolishness is that?
I remember in college, some black men on campus actually made a Facebook group saying something like "Black women on campus, please stop being lazy and go to the gym".--Enlightened One
Have such black men ever considered their position on the world's stage when compared to white and Asian men? It amazes me how some black men judge black women when they themselves really don't have a leg to stand on historically and currently. I've come to believe that some black men are so discouraged at not being able to fight against the white male power struggle that they have decided to bully who they feel is weaker...black women. That is, until black women realize that we CAN actually fight back and win.
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