Tuesday, March 17, 2009

Table Talk for Activists, Part 5: Handling Ikettes

This essay is contained in my new book. I'm delighted to announce that The Sojourner's Passport site has launched! You can visit it at http://www.sojournerspassport.com/.

Everyone, I can't thank you enough for your ongoing encouragement and support; I truly appreciate it. Your support is what made this possible. And here's a special shout-out to my web designers at Educo Web Design. They're nice people to deal with, and they do outstanding work!

Peace and blessings,
Khadija Nassif

55 comments:

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Greetings Khadija!

Thank you for your Table Talk For Activists series! It is a valuable series and it touches upon issues that are extremely important to our online activism.

I have a question to ask you:
Does the blog roll really indicate an endorsement by the blog host?

It certainly doesn't at my blog.

My blog roll IS NOT an "endorsement" of any blog forum.

For example, I have atheist bloggers on my blog roll and I don't promote atheism in any way shape or form. I have links to gay bloggers and I am not promoting homosexuality in any way shape or form. I have links to ministers whose theologies I do not agree with. I am against denominationalism but that doesn't prevent me from linking to ministers who justify it. I have links to bloggers on my site and I have no agreement with them on any of their positions.

My links at my blog are purely informational. I want the reading audience to read positions that differ from mine. I find that many black women who I engage with online have major "issues" accepting those who don't think like they do. They are suspicious and detached from those who don't think like they do. I don't have those issues and that is why I will link to bloggers I completely disagree with.

Some bloggers identify their blog roll with "Must Read Bloggers" or "My Peeps" and they are indicating the reason why they have those bloggers listed.

That's fine.

My header for my links is "Differing Perspectives" so I am not identifying any association with those bloggers at all. (At least, in my mind, I'm not!)

I am just mentioning my blog roll as an example...just in case some people have a similar objective for linking to sites that have differing platforms. I do not link to bloggers who bash black women or bloggers who bash black men.

However, you will recall that quite a few women who were (and STILL ARE!) adverse to introspection were "claiming" that my blog had an objective of bashing black women. Pure stupidity! That was their mentality.

So I would caution some sistas from going public with baseless allegations that reflect their class resentments, petty jealousies about another blog's popularity, entitlements about territorialism or just a lack of understanding about another person's forum or message.

My suggestion is that:

(1) If you are aware of a troublemaker, back-stabber Omarosa online then I think that proof-gathering is important before alerting others. You need to have screen captures and links. Otherwise, it is PURE SLANDER.

I would caution everyone to be 100% sure that the person you give that information to will not use that insider information in dubious ways to discredit you later on!

(2) I think we also need to be very vigilant about the women who want to use Chris Brown tactics at our forums. These types will try and use their sad, abused backgrounds as their reason (or excuse) for lashing out and being nasty and foul with others. There is NO EXCUSE!. I am not Rihanna. No one will step to me with foul behavior, cry and apologize and we move on with hugs. NO.

I see a lot of Chris Brown tactics that seem to be surfacing at these empowerment blogs and I don't think that all of the blog hosts are examining the consequences of permitting these female Chris Browns.

I see a lot of Star Jones tactics as well - where the mentee decides to carry her "beef" into the public domain and start publicly disparaging the person who spent time and effort to mentor them.

At our empowerment forums, there must be ZERO tolerance for pettiness, meanness, manipulative behavior and deception.

I agree with you that every blog host has a RIGHT to handle these disruptive and petty and subversive people as he/she deems necessary - with verbal warnings, expulsion, or monitoring.

Thanks so much for leading this important discussion!

{raised black glove}

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

Anonymous said...

This will help alot. It will give bw a guide to understand the forces that are upon us on and offline too.

lormarie said...

I'm careful about adding links on my blog since it can appear to be an endorsement. That's why it's important to have clearly defined categories in order to avoid that appearance. I generally will not link to blogs that have open comment policies or allow personal attacks. Racist, misogynistic, and other forms of hate are definite no nos.


As for the Ikettes on my blog, there is only one whom I suspect on my latest post about police brutality. Other than that, my blog attracts mostly men.

The best way for me to handle Iketts is to:

A. Win them if possible...
B. Simply delete their comments

Khadija said...

Hello there, Lisa!

Thank you for your kind words about the Table Talk for Activists series. I truly appreciate it.

In response to your question: You are a sophisticated reader who is paying attention to details. Unfortunately, many people are not. A lot of folks interpret the blogroll as an endorsement by the blog host.

Whatever the blogroll is labeled, the bottom line is that by placing it there a host is bringing the linked blogs to the audience's attention. In other words, indirectly vouching that the linked blogs are worth the readers' attention.

On a practical level, unless the linked material has a caption that says "Look at this madness, can you believe it?!" I believe the blogroll functions as a backhanded endorsement. Whether that was the intention or not. Many people simply are not sophisticated consumers when it comes to information.

I believe that the precautions that you've outlined for dealing with troublemakers are very wise and necessary.

I'm really hoping that there won't be a need for very many confrontations. I'm hoping that raising awareness about these destructive behaviors will:

(1) encourage those people who are acting in good faith to at least try to refrain from engaging in them; and

(2) in terms of the hardened reprobates, create an overall atmostphere that is less welcoming of their antics.

It has been brought to my attention that some women have been intimidated into complete silence by the actions of the hardened reprobates. Some women are afraid to say anything anywhere because they fear being talked about like a dog all across the Black internet by the reprobates.

Another thing I've observed about the reprobates is that they often try to "flip the script" and claim that the blogger that they are backbiting is intolerant of dissent.

From the scenarios that I silently observed before I even started my own blog, that's not these backbiters' true issue at all.

Their REAL issue is that they were unable to get the blogger to change their position. And instead of gracefully agreeing to disagree, they skulk off to other forums to whine about how the blogger would not change their position to agree with them.


This is beyond petty. And beyond dsyfunctional. Nobody is stopping these people from promoting their OWN views. I don't understand this type of mindset. Lisa, I don't spend my time obsessing over what you and I disagree about.

And respectfully, even though I value your opinions, I DON'T spend a lot of time ruminating over what you or anybody else thinks. I'm focused on what I think. And promoting what I think are helpful messages.

And I happen to think that we all, myself included, need to tighten up our internal security at the blog sanctuaries that we are trying to provide for BW (in whatever manner that each individual host chooses for herself). Right now, too many destructive behaviors are polluting our places of refuge with strife and chaos.

I've seen several valuable blogs that were destroyed by the IITs. I don't want to see any more casualties among our ranks caused by the Ikettes, backbiters and belligerent women.
____________________

Hello there, Anonymous!

Thank you for your kind words about the post. I truly appreciate it.
_____________________

Hello there, LorMarie!

Good for you! {raised fist salute}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,


I guess I have been in the rabbit hole on this issue bc I was unaware that all of this was going on. I had heard about the fake website that someone had done about Evia (the Nigerian man thing), but that was only bc of Evia mentioning that someone was impersonating her on her site- so I googled it. I make the rounds to a few blogs some more than others, but had no idea that this was going on.




"(1) encourage those people who are acting in good faith to at least try to refrain from engaging in them; and

(2) in terms of the hardened reprobates, create an overall atmostphere that is less welcoming of their antics."



I am down with this totally.




"Some women are afraid to say anything anywhere because they fear being talked about like a dog all across the Black internet by the reprobates."


I can't understand this fear. I mean aren't the people listening to the reprobates - reprobates themselves?

I used to go here and there where BP gathered on the internet and I stopped bc it was garbage. Many of those places even if they discuss BC issues mirror all the sickness/DBR-ness that you can find in the BC in real life. It made me feel like some people should not own a computer. It was either a meat market or an open sewer when it came to BW and the level of hatred directed towards BW. Even if sometimes it was subtle it was still poison.





"I find that many black women who I engage with online have major "issues" accepting those who don't think like they do."


"Their REAL issue is that they were unable to get the blogger to change their position."




I have noticed this online and offline with black people period. Its like um pandemic.

It seems like some BP just have this thing especially when they latch on to something they feel like they need to convert/change/bully everyone else into thinking, feeling, being, doing like they are.

Delishmish said...

Your posts are very insightful and thought provoking Khadija...and really on point.

There was a time when I THOUGHT I could blog the way you Ladies do...and the "Ikettes" made me take a long hard look...I thought, do I want to combat lies, distortion and untruths regularly?..and the answer to that was a resounding no (it irked me when I thought my words were deliberately misunderstood...and I was appalled at the vehemence of the rhetoric I observed)..I just wanted to bring a touch of lightheratedness into the mix...so much for that.

One of the HARDEST lessons for me to learn was that every black woman (in the world) was not my friend...and I learned that a long time ago. This same theory applies to the internet too, (and the "relationships" we develop with each other... some people actually like to argue JUST BECAUSE....I would rather concentrate on what binds us, not what separates us....

I salute you Khadija, and Evia (A SMART top notch lady WITH EXCELLENT COMMON SENSE....) and Sara, and Pinky and CW and last but not least Halima....you Ladies speak the truth...and SOMETIMES the truth hurts..

I truly am baffled as to why people whose views are completely adverse (to those espoused here for instance) continue to be slavishly devoted to these kinds of blogs.

I dislike gardening, hence gardening.com is not EVER a site that I go too....perhaps Ike and Ikette should consider this option. I think they would feel more peace in their lives..and that is always a good thing.

Thank you for having us over in your "internet" living room. Your home is lovely.

Aji said...

I recently came accross your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I dont know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.


Miriam

http://www.craigslistposter.info

foreverloyal said...

I hate saying this, but if these efforts are to be most productive, I believe we cannot afford to spend too much time indulging or cajoling those women who want to stay on "Fantasy Island". Who want us to stay there.

The warning about the blogroll is a good one. There was a time when I had links to both Evia's and the "Ruminations" site. There were some good discussions at both, though the second clearly disagreed with the entire premise of the first.

When I read this posting I thought, "Hmmmm, it might be a good idea for me to delete "Ruminations" since it has gone private and I don't even know what they are saying over there anymore."

I know, I know: "DUH!"

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

You said, "I guess I have been in the rabbit hole on this issue bc I was unaware that all of this was going on. I had heard about the fake website that someone had done about Evia (the Nigerian man thing), but that was only bc of Evia mentioning that someone was impersonating her on her site- so I googled it."

Yes, I've seen that. Some DBRBM need to be sedated. He's an example of one such individual. Lord have mercy.

You said, "I make the rounds to a few blogs some more than others, but had no idea that this was going on."

I only see glimpses of the madness here and there (mostly because I generally stay away from sites where large numbers of Blacks congregate). But the little that I see is quite foul, and I assume representative of the whole. As you mention in your comment, most Black sites are open sewers. The levels of free-floating rage and hatred that are spewed at these places turn my stomach.

You said, "I can't understand this fear. I mean aren't the people listening to the reprobates - reprobates themselves?"

Yes, this is the position of a weak person. However, in fairness, keep in mind how ENTRENCHED the open sewer atmosphere is in the Black blogosphere. VERY FEW Black blog hosts make any effort whatsoever to maintain safe spaces at their blogs. In most of these joints, anything goes.

You said, "I have noticed this online and offline with black people period. Its like um pandemic.

It seems like some BP just have this thing especially when they latch on to something they feel like they need to convert/change/bully everyone else into thinking, feeling, being, doing like they are."


You've made an EXCELLENT point here! Break it down! [raised fist salute}

I really think our people have gone backwards in terms of civilized behavior. When I read the works of Muslim scholars from CENTURIES ago, including African Muslim scholars such as Shehu Usumanu dan Fodio, I'm amazed at the etiquette that was observed while discussing opposing views. [I know some of y'all are amazed to hear me praise a Nigerian historical figure! LOL! Just kidding. *Smile*]
_________________

Hello there, Delishmish!

Thank you so much for your kind words about the blog. I truly appreciate it.

You said, "There was a time when I THOUGHT I could blog the way you Ladies do...and the "Ikettes" made me take a long hard look...I thought, do I want to combat lies, distortion and untruths regularly?..and the answer to that was a resounding no (it irked me when I thought my words were deliberately misunderstood...and I was appalled at the vehemence of the rhetoric I observed)..I just wanted to bring a touch of lightheratedness into the mix...so much for that."

And this is the tragedy of having an entrenched open sewer atmosphere in the Black blogosphere. We ALL miss out from hearing so many voices (such as yours) that could enrich our lives.

I always appreciated your comments that I've read other places. Bringing a positive, affirming smile to people's faces is an act of great charity!

You said, "I truly am baffled as to why people whose views are completely adverse (to those espoused here for instance) continue to be slavishly devoted to these kinds of blogs."

That's a mystery to me as well. I don't hang out at places where I disagree with the very premise of the discussion.

You said, "Thank you for having us over in your "internet" living room. Your home is lovely."

Thank you! I'm doing a bit of spring cleaning at the moment. LOL!
________________

Hello there, Aji/Miriam!

Thank you for your kind words about the blog. I truly appreciate it.

I let your comment through just in case you were sincere, and NOT a spammer. I won't do so again in the future if you include links such as the one in your comment.
_____________________

Hello there, ForeverLoyal!

You said, "I hate saying this, but if these efforts are to be most productive, I believe we cannot afford to spend too much time indulging or cajoling those women who want to stay on "Fantasy Island". Who want us to stay there."

Break it down! {raised fist salute}

Also, we're all stewards of our own little blog domains. We are responsible for what we promote. It's something that I try to keep in mind.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Halima said...

Also to shed light on some of the ‘dynamics’ occurring in the BW Empowernment Blosphere

I think there is an age issue around taking this work seriously and the level of commitment and focus that bw put into it. I think a fair few of us are at an age where we feel we can afford not to take ‘serious life issues’ that seriously (18-24), or some feel they are all together, so are not overtly concerned about the fate of their fellow bw (often times they view bw situation as down to their own fault and wrong choices).

I think this category of people are more prone to treat this work we are doing and the forums that we have created as ‘one big playground’ for them. Mischief making, empire building, ‘fun and games’, ‘lets stir things up a bit’, ‘lets put fire here and see how it burns whoosh’ etc etc ensues.

I am very single minded about the ‘rescue operation’ we are mounting on behalf of bw and that tempers and restrains my responses and my activities. I don’t give in to emotionally unrestrained activities and petty fights because I am always thinking of how this could impact on the work, particularly be seized upon by the ‘sharks’ we have picked up along the way.

Unfortunately there are folks around who have not keyed into the seriousness and urgency of the task or see it as ‘desirable but not essential’ thus the friction, picking fights, backbiting, gaming, throwing down and acting with total disregard to how their activities impacts on the work.

Indeed when you see people acting in this manner it is often a sign that they do not share both your priorities, and sense of urgency, they might not even share with you the importance of the vision to start off with!

Evia said...

I salute you Khadija, and Evia (A SMART top notch lady WITH EXCELLENT COMMON SENSE....) and Sara, and Pinky and CW and last but not least Halima....you Ladies speak the truth...and SOMETIMES the truth hurts..

THANK YOU, Delish!!

And you KNOW how much I enjoyed your 'delish'-ous sense of humor in which you poked fun at all of us bw who go overboard sacrificing for others without reciprocity. Of course, you were saying the same thing I say AND the same thing that many others of us say, but you said it with satirical humor. You so crazy! That was your voice, your talent, your gift. I got a bunch of notes from bw at that time saying how much they enjoyed your writing and asked about the next installments. LOL!

But I can understand that you don't want to be constantly sniped at, under attack, constantly on the defense. Still, I HOPE that you're still writing. Don't let anyone put out the light that you were given by your Creator.

Foxycleopatra said...

Khadija said:
''Another thing I've observed about the reprobates is that they often try to "flip the script" and claim that the blogger that they are backbiting is intolerant of dissent. ''


I said:
This is so true. I've witnessed this even in the past week.
-----------------------------------

Khadija said:
''..........including African Muslim scholars such as Shehu Usumanu dan Fodio, I'm amazed at the etiquette that was observed while discussing opposing views. [I know some of y'all are amazed to hear me praise a Nigerian historical figure! LOL! Just kidding. *Smile*]''

I said:
lol!

Khadija said...

Hello there, Halima!

You said, "Also to shed light on some of the ‘dynamics’ occurring in the BW Empowernment Blosphere

I think there is an age issue around taking this work seriously and the level of commitment and focus that bw put into it. I think a fair few of us are at an age where we feel we can afford not to take ‘serious life issues’ that seriously (18-24),..."


This is insane because these younger BW are the ones in the GREATEST physical danger from their BM age-peers. They are in the age-range of the Negroes who are most likely to shoot them to death for not giving out their phone number, etc.

You said, "...or some feel they are all together, so are not overtly concerned about the fate of their fellow bw (often times they view bw situation as down to their own fault and wrong choices)."

Also insane. Whether others made wrong choices or not has nothing to do with how fragile "got it going on" status actually is. Most Black folks are one paycheck from disaster. And those Black marriages that do exist are generally NOT solid. These women you're describing in this part are tripping.

You said, "I think this category of people are more prone to treat this work we are doing and the forums that we have created as ‘one big playground’ for them."

If they want to boogie their way into a gas chamber, that's fine with me. They just need to STOP blocking other people from escaping and jumping off the "groove line" party train to Dachau.
___________________

Hello there, Foxycleopatra!

You said, "This is so true. I've witnessed this even in the past week."

Oh...I've witnessed several things recently...

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

Having witnessed more than one website, usenet group, or blog taken down by naysayers I've learned quite a bit about counter-techniques.

I don't think engaging them is a good idea, particularly off-list. I rarely talk with anyone off-list and when I do I make my comments pithy. I've learned the hard way that everyone isn't honorable. I prefer to keep my comments public. That way there's no danger in someone taking what I said and turning it into something else.

Also, for the past twelve years I've saved ALL my comments. Yep, I'm paranoid as all get out, but I know that there are people who will edit your comments to say something that is totally opposite of what you said. I compose in Typepad, and simply save them before I post.

This serves two additional purposes as well, it gives me a chance to edit and refine my posts to keep them concise and pithy. People don't like to read long posts and tend to skim them. Meanings can be lost. Also, it gives me an opportunity to review ideas and viewpoints as they evolve. If I don't have time to do this, I simply don't comment. Right now I'm in a publishing lull, but as my deadlines approach, I post less and less.

Internet burnout is common, people have personal lives and simply get tired of the grind. This is especially true when you're up against what seems to be a relentless counter-attack. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have a planned retreat, in fact I think it is necessary for good mental health.

foreverloyal said...

By the way, I'm going to need Evia and Roslyn to kiss and makeup.

Whatever your points of disagreement, Need I remind you that Roslyn first found Evia's blog because someone told her "She sounds alot like you"--black women's self esteem, acceptability/desirability of broadening ones dating pool racially, self-definition, etc. (And you both took/take heat for it)

Whaddya say, truce?

Evia said...

(1) If you are aware of a troublemaker, back-stabber Omarosa online then I think that proof-gathering is important before alerting others. You need to have screen captures and links. Otherwise, it is PURE SLANDER.

Regarding the 'proof,' another thing is that some of these online slander and other situations are going offline and ending up in court, where you will need proof.

As a matter of fact, I had an experience with an obsessive woman last year who couldn't detach from me and my blog for some reason and when I refused to allow her into my private blog, she became vindictive and claimed that I had edited e-mails she'd sent me where she'd begged to be allowed into my site.

Luckily for me, since I suspected she was unbalanced from the getgo, I instinctively sent her emails to another person as soon as I received them.

I considered a court action against this person so I checked with a couple of computer systems professionals who told me that if the case went to court, there are cyberprofessionals who could "lift" her emails as they initially were and prove that I never edited them because e-mail messages have "fingerprints." This might sound silly, but I'd actually thought about starting a court action just to prove what a liar she was. The trail has gotten colder now, but I sometimes wish I'd done it.

The point is that you have to be careful with these obsessive people who will fixate on you/your blog. It can become very serious and expensive as in the case of these lawsuits (myspace and facebook). That's one of the reasons I went private--to get rid of obsessive people who were addicted to my blog. That didn't work because she became desperate at that point. There were also other people who went beserk when I went private. Some of those notes really shook me up because they showed such creepiness. It's like having leeches clinging to you and not knowing they're there until you shake them off.

Some people may like the fact that their blogs are popular, but I've learned not to like it. There's a thin line between someone really liking your blog and obsessing about you and your blog. For some reason, I tend to attract more than my share of the lunatics who become obsessed with my blog and cannot stay away and want to know more and more about me PERSONALLY.

Whereas, in the beginning, I had invited a Howard Univ. professor who wanted to interview me(she was writing a book about IR relationships) to come to my house for the interview, I would NEVER do that now.

And I too have wondered all along why it is that so many folks who obviously disagree with me--keep coming to my site. How crazy is it to keep going to a site where you vehemently disagree with the writer??? It's a form of masochism or self-flagellation.

Evia said...

By the way, I'm going to need Evia and Roslyn to kiss and makeup.

Whatever your points of disagreement


ForeverLoyal, I don't have a disagreement with Roslyn; she apparently has a disagreement with me. Big difference. I have never gone to Roslyn's site to see what she writes there. I have a problem with Roslyn's "behavior" towards me.

When Roslyn first came on my site, I enjoyed her comments. I still have all the comments so I know exactly what went down. But after a while, she became aggressive, argumentative, and increasingly insulting and tried to tell me what pictures I should and shouldn't show on my site and began to have problems with what I said and did in MY OWN BLOGHOUSE. She was trying to tell me what to do IN MY OWN BLOGHOUSE and that wasn't going to happen and I told her that she was either going to respect my bloghouse or she'd have to leave.

Now you would think she would have just left or changed her behavior. She didn't. If you have a problem with a blog owner, wouldn't you just leave? I pointed out to her nicely at first that she could always leave because I generally am polite. Remember that the blog was wide open and unmoderated at that point, so she could comment any time she wanted. So she refused to leave and kept commenting, saying it was a public blog and she didn't know why she couldn't come to a public blog and state her mind. Other commenters even told her nicely that she should just leave. She still refused. I told her that she could not stay at my blog and be insulting or antagonistic to me or other commenters.
So she then got ugly-nasty on my blog and told me off and I also got nasty, but I tried to temper what I said because I didn't want my blog to degenerate. I told her to get out but she still didn't go.

I had to start deleting her comments and finally she went away. So that's the history.

However, that wasn't the end of it on her part. She started attacking my blog and my character from other sites (sniping). I'm sure some of y'all have read her snipes at Evia on other sites. Anybody would be a liar if they said I've ever said anything negative about Roslyn on anybody's site or on my own.

Now I'm not going to change, so I know she still has the problem with me. That's why I asked her tactfully the other day on here why she was on the other sites sniping at me. (I'm sure that some of y'all also read her snipes on some of those sites because others of y'all were sending me the links.)

Anyway, I'm happy that she laid it out on here the other dayd so that all could see all of the animosity that she has towards me. Glad she did that because that proves that she harbors very negative feelings towards me and my blog.

So, it wasn't that we disagreed. She got furious because she couldn't get me to agree with HER and I refused to let her take over my bloghouse. I don't care whether people agree with me, but I'm not going to allow people to abuse me in MY OWN HOUSE?

So I didn't have a problem with Roslyn, but she had a problem with me and STILL has--for some reason. And I don't know why. That's why I asked, in the spirit of us both being bw--why she did that.

So I don't need a truce. I'm not fighting with Roslyn; SHE has the problem with ME as she made plain the other day, and I'm glad she showed herself in black and white.

But thanks for your effort.

Khadija said...

*Audience Note*

To a certain extent, I have allowed comments through that I ordinarily would not publish because I want everyone to learn better ways of handling these sorts of situations. And this situation presents a good example to learn from.

@ForeverLoyal: I know you mean well, but 3rd parties are not in a position to control other people's "beef." The people directly involved have to work that out for themselves; or not (as is their prerogative).

Publicly asking folks questions about their "beef," or asking folks to make up only serves to keep it going publicly.

@Everyone: DON'T address anymore comments or questions to Evia or Roslyn about their "beef." STAY OUT OF IT. I WON'T publish them if you try to do so.


@Evia: No harm, no foul here. You're only responding to a comment that ForeverLoyal directed to you. However, please know that I won't publish anymore comments discussing whatever the situation is between you and Roslyn. That's a matter for you two to resolve, or not.

@Roslyn: Because I allowed Evia ONE comment in which to respond to ForeverLoyal's comment which was directed to the two of you, I am extending you the opportunity to submit ONE comment in response.

You are free to respond to this little exchange between ForeverLoyal and Evia. You are free to not respond. Whatever you do is up to you.

Let me repeat what I just said to Evia: However, please know that I won't publish anymore comments discussing whatever the situation is between you and Evia. That's a matter for you two to resolve, or not.

Everybody: After Roslyn chooses to respond or not (which is her prerogative since I let one additional comment from Evia through about this matter), this will be the END of publishing any comments whatsoever from anybody that address the situation between her and Evia.

Like I said, I let a few things through lately that I WON'T let through after we finish discussing these particular Table Talk for Activists posts. The next Table Talk post will address constructive ways of handling disagreements/issues.


Peace, blessings and solidarity.

JaliliMaster said...

I first came across Evia's site about two years ago or so when someone linked to it on a site called Bossip. At first, I just sacnned through then left. Some few weeks later, someone posted a link to the site again and someone I know had gone. One poster then said she agrees with some of the things on the site, but she felt the blog owner(Evia) was 'too hard on the brothers'. When I actually started reading the site, I couldn't understand what the problem was. This whole Ike/Ikette thing is nothing new. It's been going on for a while now.

Khadija, I like the analogy you used with famous people re: Chris Brown, Star Jones, Omarosa, etc., people can actually spot these behaviours better. Using names like Ike Turner enables others to more easily spot these characteristics.

Finally, I also wanted to ask. Since you want other bloggers to inform you if they are aware of an Ikette posting on your blog, would you also want any other poster(i.e not a blog owner) to do it also even if they have the proof. I've come across some of them but I don't want to cause problems. Would you prefer that we send, say, an e-mail as opposed to posting it in the comments section?

roslynholcomb said...

@Foreverloyal, you are always gracious and kind. I think these exchanges have made it clear that in fact Evia is the one who has a problem with me. After all, I didn't try to have her labeled as an enemy combatant. I have nothing further to say on the matter.

JaliliMaster said...

"I think there is an age issue around taking this work seriously and the level of commitment and focus that bw put into it. I think a fair few of us are at an age where we feel we can afford not to take ‘serious life issues’ that seriously (18-24),..."

"This is insane because these younger BW are the ones in the GREATEST physical danger from their BM age-peers. They are in the age-range of the Negroes who are most likely to shoot them to death for not giving out their phone number, etc."

I say......

When I see the foolishness from older Ikettes, I dismiss them, because as far as I'm concerned, they are old enough to know better. I'm 21, so I'm not going to be lecturing a grown woman on common sense issues when she is the one supposed to be teaching me. Additionally, most of them seem to dismiss my opinion as irrelevant in comaprison to theirs, as I haven't 'lived' (apparently), so there is no way that I can be right and they wrong. On the case of the younger ones(i.e around my age and even younger), they are the ones that really annoy me. It is quite obvious that alot of them think that as they are younger, they can still live their lives and the foolish negroes who cause destruction to black women are only interested in attacking the black women who these younger women feel are 'past their time'. The do not seem to realise that they are at a greater risk than anyone else, and add to the fact that them being younger, they probably have fewer resources at their disposal should they try to flee.
There is a certain one of these Ikettes, an 18 year old imbecile(sorry Khadija, you can delete that word if you want to but I'm really irritated right now), who asked focused purpose for some info on some site. There were some toxic discussions going on, so fp just left it. On another site, fp decided to answer this young lady's question and what did she get in return. It seems that based solely on the fact that: 1)fp had some disagreement with her, and 2)fp told her to do a little bit more research on the topic, this young lady decided to get offended as she studies 'clinical research'(or something along that line, as she claimed), so it is an insult for fp, a grown woman, to tell this person who has barely reached adulthood, to 'do their own research'. I have seen her on other sites and from her blogger id page, she linked to(AND ENDORSED) several sites that anybody with half a brain would know was an Ike Turner. I don't want to actually name her, as I think that would be unfair(as she isn't here to defend herself), but if you want Khadija, I could send you an e-mail of this Ikette with links to her displays of foolishness.
__________________________

You said, "...or some feel they are all together, so are not overtly concerned about the fate of their fellow bw (often times they view bw situation as down to their own fault and wrong choices)."

"Also insane. Whether others made wrong choices or not has nothing to do with how fragile "got it going on" status actually is. Most Black folks are one paycheck from disaster. And those Black marriages that do exist are generally NOT solid. These women you're describing in this part are tripping."

You said, "I think this category of people are more prone to treat this work we are doing and the forums that we have created as ‘one big playground’ for them."

"If they want to boogie their way into a gas chamber, that's fine with me. They just need to STOP blocking other people from escaping and jumping off the "groove line" party train to Dachau."

Khadija, you should try your hand at comedy. That was tooooo funny. My sister was here reading it and she burst out laughing.

Foxycleopatra said...

Hi, to all the bw ir and empowerment bloggers, I just want to say God bless you all. I know it is not easy.

A few years ago, I used to frequent this site called bossip. That site was a perfect manifestation of degeneracy. I would constantly point out idiocy and would be shouted down. When some stupid negro would insult bw, there would be about just 2 or 3 bw that would call him out on it. The most other bw would do would be to say things like 'brothas, how could u be doin/saying this', 'it's not fair' etc. They would not realise that these degenerate souls were not their 'brothas' as a brother would never behave that way towards a sister. After a while, I stopped bothering with the black men on that site and concerned myself with pulling as many black women as I could from the stupidity I was seeing. The next thing I know, I came under serious attack from both the males and the females. To discredit me, some of the other people who frequented the site began to impersonate me and began writing derogatory and offensive things and began passing them off as my own comments. They would write racist and bigoted things and would use my name (still used to post as Foxycleopatra back then) as the 'poster' of these comments. When i alerted the site moderators to use IP addresses to confirm and verify the actual posters and the fake ones, they did it only once but then refused because the fake commenst were 'entertaining'. After a while, I just left and stoppped going there.

So when I see you blog owners constantly under attack from these foolish ikes and ikettes, sometimes I wonder how you cope. When I counter them online, I tend to put them in their place but if I owned a blog were people could actually know me personally, defame my character, twist my words and even make threats against me, I sometimes wonder if I could actually cope.

When I actually think of what these ikes/ikettes are trying to achieve, that is actually what would strengthen me. In the case of bossip, when the fools saw that they couldn't attack me for what I say, and saw that I was not prepared to back down, they began to discredit me by 'creating' the words they would use to discredit me. The fact that it was ruffling so many feathers was what even shocked me. This just proved to me that the work to pull these young black girls from this cesspit of degeneracy was an IMPORTANT NECESSITY.

Please to all the brave black women who are willing to take the time to help the rest of us, please DON'T GIVE UP. It won't be easy but we will get there in the end. The mountain top is high, far and might not even be visible at the moment but please DO NOT doubt for even one second that that mountain top exists. It definitely exists!

Foxycleopatra said...

@ Jalilimaster,

I take it you have experienced the degeneracy of that site? It was also through there that I found out about Evia's site. Haven't turned back since.

Aisha said...

@Foxycleopatra

The comment section of Bossip is a cesspool-you need a shower afterwards. I usually stop by and browse the posts when I want to zone out, and I don't dwell in the comments area unless it's an interesting post.

Most of the dysfunction in the AA community that Khadija describes is illuminated on Black entertainment blogs. At first, I thought the thoughts/behaviors displayed on some of these sites were the actions of immature young teens. Unfortunately, I had the sickening realization that these were adults.

I notice with Black sites they try to mask the animosity with "humor." But what type of miserable human beings sit around with the sole purpose of destroying the morale of people they have never met? How many people are like this in real life and you just don't know?

The Internet can be dangerous in the sense that there is a lot of free-floating negativity. Anyone can spew their venom with no real consequences. Nowadays, I am much more careful about which websites I visit, and especially with comment sections. I refuse to wallow in filth. I guard my attention much more closely now, the way I would with a child, because no one is immune from absorbing negativity.

Enlightened said...

Agreed on Bossip being a cesspool. I honestly would not take anything posted on ANY black celebrity blog seriously...there are enough things to depress us as black women. LOL! A lot of those commenters are more concerned about being the first one to post (the whole "FIRST!!!" phenomenon) than saying anything substantive. There is only one blog that is worth reading because the owner has the most WICKED sense of humor I have ever seen on a blog and her commenters are as bad as she is! LOL! But the others...don't even bother, ladies. Seriously. It isn't even worth addressing the stupidity and ignorance that goes on there.

Khadija said...

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

You said, "Khadija, I like the analogy you used with famous people re: Chris Brown, Star Jones, Omarosa, etc., people can actually spot these behaviours better. Using names like Ike Turner enables others to more easily spot these characteristics."

Oh no, other folks came up with all of that. LOL! Gina the blog host of What About Our Daughters was the first person to use the term "Internet Ike Turners."

Rev. Lisa is the person who made reference to Chris Brown, Star Jones, Omarosa, etc. I agree that these are good terms to use. They quickly "cut to the chase" in terms of identifying what the problem is.

You asked, "Finally, I also wanted to ask. Since you want other bloggers to inform you if they are aware of an Ikette posting on your blog, would you also want any other poster(i.e not a blog owner) to do it also even if they have the proof. I've come across some of them but I don't want to cause problems. Would you prefer that we send, say, an e-mail as opposed to posting it in the comments section?"

Email me with this type of information and the proof (such as the link to the comment). This sort of stuff is sensitive and requires delicate handling and scrutiny. So, it needs to be private.

You said, "I don't want to actually name her, as I think that would be unfair(as she isn't here to defend herself), but if you want Khadija, I could send you an e-mail of this Ikette with links to her displays of foolishness."

THANK YOU! I'm already aware of this particular individual that you are referencing. I'm not totally convinced that this person is actually a young woman. But that angle really doesn't matter to me. My point is that I was horrified to see that some BW bloggers had this individual's blog listed in their blogrolls.

That's the thing about all of this. The Ikes and Ikettes only exist to the extent that BW feed them energy by engaging with them.

In terms of the Ikes, just consider: Do typical men overly concern themselves with women's conversations? No, they don't. So the male market niche for the IIT sites dedicated to bashing BW blogs is inherently severely limited. BW are the ones supplying the bulk of the attention to these sites.

You said, "Khadija, you should try your hand at comedy. That was tooooo funny. My sister was here reading it and she burst out laughing."

Thank you, but I got the "boogie our way into a gas chamber" quote from a local Black radio talk show host who said it a lot. I just extended the reference to include the song "Groove Line" by Heatwave. So, I'm not quite ready for the comedy clubs. LOL!
__________________

Hello there, Foxycleopatra!

You said, "Hi, to all the bw ir and empowerment bloggers, I just want to say God bless you all. I know it is not easy."

THANK YOU! Blogging can try one's patience at times; but if you're prepared, it can also be quite worthwhile. I learn a LOT from readers like you!

You said, "When i alerted the site moderators to use IP addresses to confirm and verify the actual posters and the fake ones, they did it only once but then refused because the fake commenst were 'entertaining'. After a while, I just left and stoppped going there."

Lord have mercy. That's truly despicable. All around.
_______________________

Hello there, Aisha!

You said, "Most of the dysfunction in the AA community that Khadija describes is illuminated on Black entertainment blogs. At first, I thought the thoughts/behaviors displayed on some of these sites were the actions of immature young teens. Unfortunately, I had the sickening realization that these were adults."

Yes, I was also nauseated by this realization.

You said, "I notice with Black sites they try to mask the animosity with "humor." But what type of miserable human beings sit around with the sole purpose of destroying the morale of people they have never met? How many people are like this in real life and you just don't know?"

It makes you realize just how fragile civilization is. This is why power blackouts almost automatically lead to looting, etc. [Which I always found mysterious as a pre-teen. I used to ask my parents why are the lights going out a signal to go crazy?]

You said, "The Internet can be dangerous in the sense that there is a lot of free-floating negativity. Anyone can spew their venom with no real consequences. Nowadays, I am much more careful about which websites I visit, and especially with comment sections. I refuse to wallow in filth. I guard my attention much more closely now, the way I would with a child, because no one is immune from absorbing negativity."

I'm also very careful about what I let into my mind.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,

@ Halima and Khadija

"I think there is an age issue around taking this work seriously and the level of commitment and focus that bw put into it. I think a fair few of us are at an age where we feel we can afford not to take ‘serious life issues’ that seriously (18-24),..."

"This is insane because these younger BW are the ones in the GREATEST physical danger from their BM age-peers. They are in the age-range of the Negroes who are most likely to shoot them to death for not giving out their phone number, etc."



Amen twice to that. I wish there was someway to tell girls as young as possible- like aged 5 or earlier. Start putting ideas in their heads while they are very young so by the time they are 16+ they are ready to take care of themselves and make wise life affirming choices.



I am starting to realize that if a woman doesn't make good choices or take these things seriously at that age- she can make decisions that can take her life in directions that she doesn't want it to go in and that will take a lot of work to correct later.



@ Jallimaster


I get your point about some older women. That is common. I had this one woman in my religion who would make fun of me and make all kinds of snide comments during worship- telling me to "do it like a big girl".

When I worked on a film and I had a falling out with one of the producers her first snipe was "little girl". So sometimes I employ calculated explosiveness on people to get respect. I think maybe because I am softspoken, introverted, and still have a baby face people think they can run all up on and over me. Which is odd because I am a tall girl and I can tap some of these people in the crown of their head and drive them straight into the ground should I choose.


But another thing that you will find, if you haven't already is that some women who are married or who have children will discount/look down upon those that aren't/don't. They can have bad marriages or have oow babies- it doesn't matter. According to them they are real women and you aren't because you are single and childless and that attitude spans ages.


I have two female friends over 40 who have never married and who have never had children and they have shared the same with me. They get the same treatment from married women or women who have OOW babies as well. Some who are younger than they are who will posture by saying well I am a mother or I am married ...blah, blah, blah.




For me in dealing with these types of women - I don't engage - I just throw information grenades and retreat. I will forcefully and concisely state a position then literally physically remove myself from the fallout.

Or if I am forced to sit a spell- I ask leading questions in order to prevent a lecture/gang up situation and force them to examine what they are saying. Like, "Well do you think that is fair? How is that to your or BW's advantage?" I just keep playing stupid and asking questions.


No one likes to be told info that will force them to snap out of denial. You know the whole shoot the messenger thing- if you attack my beliefs you are attacking me -even if the message is a helpful one. Also some older BW may know the truth, but may be singing the status quo song- just to keep others in line.


So I drop information bombs bc what they are putting out is poison and I have to put something else out there in the ethers to counteract that- to let it marinate and circulate - whether it will immediately be accepted or not. I may be the only sane voice - especially when there are other BW and girls taking this garbage in.

Aphrodite said...

@ Aisha,


I have always despised black entertainment sites. I know that celebrities are out there in the public eye, but there is something so unseemly in the way the articles are done about them. I don't need to know everything about somebody. And I noticed that there is so much homophobia on those sites it is sickening - considering how the BC reacts to allegations of homosexuality. And people are making money from this?





"I notice with Black sites they try to mask the animosity with "humor." But what type of miserable human beings sit around with the sole purpose of destroying the morale of people they have never met? How many people are like this in real life and you just don't know?"


I have noticed this in- real- life. I have had people take shots at me in real life and then cover it up by saying "its just a joke, you are too sensitive." I do not play that at all anymore.

Before I would say nothing bc sometimes this can even come from so called friends and I would be so stunned. But now I make a big deal of it- a huge deal. It is like a small chip at your self- esteem and I don't let it slide no matter how much they try to downplay it.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

You said, "I am starting to realize that if a woman doesn't make good choices or take these things seriously at that age- she can make decisions that can take her life in directions that she doesn't want it to go in and that will take a lot of work to correct later."

I've heard this idea referred to in "fancy talk" as "sensitive dependence on initial conditions." The idea is that even an extremely small error at the beginning can produce a profound problem. Such as how a ship whose bearing is one degree off compass will ultimately end up hundreds of miles off course.

Unfortunately, seemingly small life-damaging choices have a similar effect. Years later, one's life is profoundly off course.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

@Aphrodite re:

I am starting to realize that if a woman doesn't make good choices or take these things seriously at that age- she can make decisions that can take her life in directions that she doesn't want it to go in and that will take a lot of work to correct later.

Co-signing that all the way!!

It's ALL boils down to black girls and bw making pro-black female (which doesn't mean anti-male) choices/decisions from moment to moment. But a decision is no better than the information it's based on. IMO, LOTS ( dare I say the majority) of AA women do NOT get good, sound, and timely information BECAUSE they limit themselves to AA social circles and actually believe that what folks in those circles say to them is the GOSPEL. This is what drives a LOT/the bulk of the dysfunction among AA women--poisonous anti-black female messages/information.

This is why the biggest part of my mission is to help to provide bw with pro-bw information and position-points that will help them to get what they need to 'Live Well.'

A large part of 'living well' in the patriarchial world we live in for ANY heterosexual woman is having a loving and supportive QUALITY MATE who is committed emotionally and financially to her and their children or even just to her. I don't believe that all women must get married or have children. Still, the quality of your life will be much better if you have a committed quality mate. As men rise in the world, they normally lift the women in their group (except for AAs.) So a Quality man is a real asset--without ANY doubt. The opposite is also true: when men are on the ground, they will keep the women in their group there,IF the woman remains there with him.

So when you reduce everything I say down to its common denominator, that's the central thread running through all of the hundreds of thousands (or millions--LOL!) of words I've written. BW--make BETTER choices/decisions because the quality of your life (and your children) depends on YOUR decisions.

I hear a lot from young bw because the ones I hear from don't want to make these same ole mistakes and some of them have intuitively figured out that lack of good, or pro-bw information is what's causing many bw to go down. That's why they keep writing me for advice. (Lawdy!)

Some of them have been fortunate enough to have stumbled upon Bw-IR&E blogs and sites. Some of them have actually printed out what we say and are trying to follow it like a blueprint and using what we write as 'talking points.' I get notes to that effect quite often. But I admit that on another level, it's scary to me and just way beyond sad that the lives of bw are hinging on what strange women on the internet like us are saying. I honestly don't want that kind of responsibility.

Last night, for ex., I received a long note from a young bw college student who told me that the young bw on her diverse college campus mostly don't date because the bm there mostly date non-bw and yet will not ***allow*** other men (mainly wm) to approach bw. This is known as c%#kblocking. At the same time, these bm are claiming that they have no choice but to date ww because ***according to them,*** it's "safer" in society for a young bm if he dates
a ww. (The police won't harrass him or not as much, they claim.) SMDH

So this is hype, of course, and just reason #49,999 that bm give for preferring non-bw and discriminating against bw, but apparently some bw accept this lie. If not, bm wouldn't even say it.

Well, this young bw is feisty. Bless her heart! Using printouts of my essays, she called an "interracial dating" meeting of the bw on her campus (which she said was well attended by bw) and pointed out to them what's happening to them and what the future holds for them if they allow this c%$kblocking to continue. She said that a bm college student also came to the meeting and was loudly declaring that wm don't find bw attractive or only want bw for sex. But using my essays, she debated with him and some of the bw listened to her. However, she said most of them were won over by this bm because they've been hearing how unattractive and undesirable they are all of their lives.

So this is why little black girls MUST start hearing this message from DAY 1 before they even start hearing the poison and/or before it takes effect. IMO, we've ALL got to try in whatever way we can to get as many pro-bw messages to them and other bw as possible--at every opportunity even if we have to sneak it in. LOL! And the message IS actually getting out there because I received links to that effect a few times each week.

She said this bm said that he can't find a bw on the campus to date and she said this is so ridiculous because this is a campus that has plenty undergrad and grad bw students. LOL! He made the point that in effect said he feels that he should have first crack at dating any bw on the campus before ANY wm. So since he doesn't have a girlfriend (meaning he can't get all the ***sex*** HE wants from the dymes), he's going to
c$%kblock the wm on the campus. We have to know he goes around telling the wm at every opportunity that bw aren't interested in wm and that bw have bad attitudes, are babymamas, and yadda, yadda.

Can y'all imagine a man coming to an all-bw meeting and having the AUDACITY to say things like that? WHEW! And the women actually allowed him to remain at the meeting!!!! I feel like I'm an old lady because this just wouldn't have happened when I was in my
20s. He would have been shown the door in more ways than one. Bm are MUCH more outspoken with their selfishness, narcissism and colorstruck views and behavior than they were just a decade or two ago. It gets worse everyday by leaps and bounds.

It was so COWARDLY for those women to ***allow*** him to intrude on them and spew his poison.

Anyway, she said she's determined to continue to call those meetings and thanked me for my site because it has opened her eyes before it was too late AND has given her the information she needs to continue to fight back and to make pro-bw decisions for herself.

(Sigh) I wish there were Bw-IR chapters around the country because she needs the support of adult bw in her area.

Anyway, I SALUTE her! She's definitely a (s)hero.

JaliliMaster said...

Evia, the story you told would be sad if it wasn't so pathetic. I keep wondering how these bm can know which sort of lies to tell and tricks to play to divert these young bw's minds away from the truth, yet these vary same bw aren't able to tell that they are being played. And that was a very good point regarding the bw actually allowing the silly guy to remain in their midst. Add to that, I'm wondering why a bm would feel the need to(or feel that his presence is wanted/needed/required/welcome) at a gathering about bw in ir relationships. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have immediately known he was only there to disrupt by subterfuge.

sistrunkqueen said...

Evia

It doesn't even suprise me about the black women on campus. They all are so gullible and naive at that age. They didn't have mothers that understood the social landminds the a young bw will have to get through in a predominatly white environment. I remember in college a classmate brought up a conversation she had with a cousin who was at Princeton by the way about interacial dating. The cousin told her that some of the white boys wanted to know why the black girls looked mean and unapproachable?? Now I think this was in the early 90's, so I guess these white boys wanted to date the black chicks but again self sabotage. Black women need to open up and be a little more friendlier on campus.

Halima said...

Last night, for ex., I received a long note from a young bw college student who told me that the young bw on her diverse college campus mostly don't date because the bm there mostly date non-bw and yet will not ***allow*** other men (mainly wm) to approach bw. This is known as c%#kblocking. At the same time, these bm are claiming that they have no choice but to date ww because ***according to them,*** it's "safer" in society for a young bm if he dates
a ww. (The police won't harrass him or not as much, they claim.) SMDH

So this is hype, of course, and just reason #49,999 that bm give for preferring non-bw and discriminating against bw, but apparently some bw accept this lie. If not, bm wouldn't even say it.

Well, this young bw is feisty. Bless her heart! Using printouts of my essays, she called an "interracial dating" meeting of the bw on her campus (which she said was well attended by bw) and pointed out to them what's happening to them and what the future holds for them if they allow this c%$kblocking to continue.


This story really warmed my heart, bless her little heart. I really needed to hear this today. thanks evia.

We must support anyway we can, maybe there is a model in it that can be rolled out to other campuses, because we know that this is happening all over and has been for years, and once the pattern is set at this critical university stage, these bw will forever normalise the unfair deal of bm being free to date Ir along with excuses they make, but bw not being allowed.

It never ceases to amaze me how bm are so instinctive about protecting their interests, it has become a basic human urge like eating, yet bw are utterly confused about their most basic needs asking 'shall i get married, shall I keep recources for myself?' SMH.

No bm should be allowed in any such meeting, and if allowed it needs to be in a second meeting after bw have had a chance to understand what bm are really about and how they operate, so that such a meeting will only serve to confirm what they have come to know and the scales will fall from their eyes.

Is there a white guy on the campus who wouldnt mind nuetralizing any such bm attempts.

I know focused Purpose talked about how we need to spread the message on the ground, and Khadija has taken the step of printing out information and CD's. The need for on the ground work is a repeating theme. There is indeed desperate need for it.

you know bless her heart, she reminds me of me at that age; 'fearless'. I still have the scars from confronting the university chaplain lol!

Evia said...

@Jalilimaster re:

And that was a very good point regarding the bw actually allowing the silly guy to remain in their midst. Add to that, I'm wondering why a bm would feel the need to(or feel that his presence is wanted/needed/required/welcome) at a gathering about bw in ir relationships. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have immediately known he was only there to disrupt by subterfuge.

I would bet that the bw there thought it was "fair" to allow him to be there and "fair" to allow him to speak his poisonous mind. The level of "fair"ness among AAs--especially AA women--towards hostile others is SCARY. I think Aimee on the "Black Girls Rule" site thought she should allow freedom of speech on her blog and that's why she allowed the trolls to have fun there.

I don't ever feel the need to be "fair" and allow hostile others to have freedom of speech in my presence or harm me. "Life is NOT fair and has never been fair." Bw need to integrate that fact into the synapses of their brains.

Those college women allowed themselves to be sitting prey because they ***allowed*** ONE, lone man to INTRUDE on them and assault their emotions and their spirits and with ease. I'll bet they left there feeling MORE undesirable, unattractive, and unwanted. As I've pointed out on my site, IF bw are indeed SO undesirable, why is it that so many AA males are just obsessed with telling them this--with countless Youtube videos and then there are the Ikes and their lapdog Ikettes on their websites just fixated on bw telling us how awful we are in every way and that nobody wants us for mates. LOL! I even get notes and comments (that I don't post) from folks who claim to be AA males who say they are happily married to Latinas, ww, and other non-bw but they're still reading our bw-IR blogs and taking the time to write long notes/comments detailing to me how undesirable bw are. LOL!!!!!! Some of them have virtually memorized portions of my essays and can remember things I said that I can't even remember, yet they claim to be happily married to other women. 'I think they doth protest too much.'

This steady barrage of "nobody wants you" type messages has obviously had a very negative effect on MANY young black girls and younger bw's self esteem. Many of them now believe that they are undesirable, which is not surprising. As an older bw, I didn't know that nobody wanted me until I started blogging 3 years ago and heard all of this stuff from the Ikes and Ikettes. LOL!! Just think that I, with my brown skin, obviously African descended features and hair, thought I was very desirable and lovable by lots of men (including a few AA men) all of my life for 2 main reasons: (1) these men treated me like a desirable woman and (2) I've spent very little of my time among AAs and other blacks with diseased minds.

Anyway, I've often thought that AAs are about the "FAIR"est people on earth, but this so-called "fair"ness is an apparent need to compensate for feeling less-than. By being so "fair, it's really a plea to be liked and accepted. Obviously none of these young woman declared to this hostile that it's a fact that bm ARE already using bw 'just for sex' since 70%+ AA women are unpartnered and LOTS of bw do want to marry the bm who's sexing them and/or their babydaddies.

This 'sitting prey" behavior from these women is a part of why many bm don't respect the intellect of bw in general. This is why so many Ikes out there think that if they can make "Evia the Terrible" and a handful of other bw empowerment bloggers go away, then all the other bw would meekly get back into their place. LOL! It's clear that they don't think that the typical bw they encounter has a well-functioning brain. And these bm may be right. Our blogs have had a tremendous impact on raising the consciousness of many, many bw re these issues, but I sometimes wonder what would be the impact on the all-around circumstances of AA women and bw in similar situations in 10 or 15 years if all of our blogs just went dark today.

I hope more of you see the need to start blogging!!! There should also be LOTS more consciousness raising blogs aimed at bw in various demographic groups. I'm just blown away by the number of young bw's blogs and sites that I run across that focus on the glitterati, pocketbooks, shoes, music, movies, etc. I hope they're not representative of the typical young bw out there. Quality men of intellect are much more attracted to appealing (demeanor-wise and physically) women who have invested time and effort in developing their minds.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Sistrunkqueen:

They didn't have mothers that understood the social landminds the a young bw will have to get through in a predominatly white environment.

My reply:

I think they are told about the potential social landmines, but not all of them.

They are told the predominanty white campuses are dangerous because they are under attack, ie., that whites don't want them there, etc.

And because of that, they are told they have to stick with the all black social groups for support and so forth. They get this lesson at home, or it is implicit/explicit in the college environment.

The colleges do a lot of outreach to the young black students, because how else will they get funding for all the people that run the black student groups, administrators and so forth?

But the young black women going in don't see the social landmine in being part of a majority black group where many of the members are female, or where the social dynamics are that the young men might date women of other backgrounds but deny the young women the opportunity to do so.

The administrators either don't recognize this problem, or know about, but don't say a word. It's not their concern. All that matters to them is that they have young black students matriculating and then graduating. All they care about is ensuring that the young black students are members and give the group a presence on campus while they are there. Alumni money, anyone? New admits, anyone?

What is the answer? Even if they are considered "traitors," young black women need much larger social circles. Don't focus exclusively on the black social groups as their only means of social support. Find allies inside the group and outside, an important lesson for college and beyond.

lormarie said...

Last night, for ex., I received a long note from a young bw college student who told me that the young bw on her diverse college campus mostly don't date because the bm there mostly date non-bw and yet will not ***allow*** other men (mainly wm) to approach bw. This is known as c%#kblocking.

This just burns me up. I personally find it insulting when black men (or anyone else) implies that bw belong to bm or that they have rights to bw. If I were running such a meeting, I would have had no problem telling that black guy to leave (out of respect for this blog, I've put it nicely) since it wasn't about black men. No bravado or pretentiousness here, that's my confrontational personality, LOL.

Whatever the case, I'm glad the young lady is continuing the meetings. I would suggest that she and those who are open to her message get involved in various activities of interest to men of other races (especially politics). If discussions get heated for example, "Anti-Obama" don't rush to the defense of the president. Listen and validate their political/life experience. Whether right or wrong, a bw will have to let potential suitors of other races know that she is not a black male loyalist. If she presents herself that way, she might turn nonbm off.

Does it mean denying who we are, no. It simply means that bw need to understand that not everyone's experience is the black experience. This is especially true when we decide to date/marry IR.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

It occurred to me that in this demographic we are talking about, 18-24, college aged young black women, there is one resource on college campuses that merits mentioning: the campus Women's Center.

The Women's Center is not the same as the Women's Studies Department/Program, although some of the staff in each might overlap or have connections among themselves.

The Women's Studies Department/Program is more academic: teaching faculty can be found there.

The Women's Center acts as a clearninghouse/safe space for young women on college campuses to talk about and deal with these sorts of issues we're talking about here: dating, relationships, sexuality, body image, violence, sexism, and coming into one's own as a young woman.

Young men are not permitted to come in and take over, because it is about women talking to each other as women. Since these issues are so sensitive, women might need women-only safe spaces.

This is about the well-being of all young women on college campuses, but are enough young black women utilizing these resources?

It is about finding allies outside of the race-only group.

On some campuses, there are women's health education coordinators who do similar type work, and especially within the office of student health.

The best women's centers have subgroups that are exclusively for women of color and organize consciousness raising sessions for the young women to get all the stuff out there on the table.

One group I know of spent a semester or so working out the issues were dealing with and then put together a choreopoem, like Ntkosake Sange's, For Colored Girls. It was pretty powerful.

But this can only be done when young black women are going into college believing they have a right to think and talk about gender issues that affect them as young black women.

Without that mindset, they are stuck in the black student groups that might as well be young black men's fiefdoms, notwithstanding the fact that on many college campuses, there are more young black women than young black men.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Evia!

You said, "(Sigh) I wish there were Bw-IR chapters around the country because she needs the support of adult bw in her area.

Anyway, I SALUTE her! She's definitely a (s)hero."


I agree. This young lady is "the bomb."

You later went on to say, "Anyway, I've often thought that AAs are about the "FAIR"est people on earth, but this so-called "fair"ness is an apparent need to compensate for feeling less-than. By being so "fair, it's really a plea to be liked and accepted."

I agree! AAs do a lot of things that masquerade as being "fair, loving, and humble." However, the motives are ALL WRONG, and rooted in self-loathing. At a miminum, people who value themselves don't allow others to screw them over. People who value themselves unapologetically seek THE BEST for themselves.

*Homework assignment for audience members*

I KNOW that a lot of y'all are members of sororities and various professional organizations, etc. It's time to use those organizational affiliations to help young BW. There's nothing stopping you, as a member of a professional organization, from contacting the Black Student Unions on nearby campuses.

You can contact these BSUs and tell them that, as a working professional BW, you would like to come speak to young BW college students on that campus about preparing for life's opportunities. You might even want to offer to provide regular "mentoring" meetings for the young BW on a campus.

At which point, you can have BW-only mentoring meetings to discuss ALL of the things (c&#kblocking, etc.) that we are discussing here. You don't have to, and SHOULDN'T, announce that this information is part of what you'll be discussing. It's best to just do it.

It's not that hard to get your foot in the door to speak to young BW. I'm amazed at the number of invitations that so many high schools, etc. extend to random Black professional to come speak to the students. We can use this already established practice to the collective benefit of BW!
__________________

Hello there, Halima!

You said, "we know that this is happening all over and has been for years, and once the pattern is set at this critical university stage, these bw will forever normalise the unfair deal of bm being free to date Ir along with excuses they make, but bw not being allowed."

That's why those of us who do outreach have to catch them quick, at the START of their freshmen years. BEFORE the Black Student Union scammers get their claws into them.

You said, "It never ceases to amaze me how bm are so instinctive about protecting their interests, it has become a basic human urge like eating, yet bw are utterly confused about their most basic needs asking 'shall i get married, shall I keep recources for myself?' SMH."

I find this mindboggling as well.

You said, "No bm should be allowed in any such meeting, and if allowed it needs to be in a second meeting after bw have had a chance to understand what bm are really about and how they operate, so that such a meeting will only serve to confirm what they have come to know and the scales will fall from their eyes."

This should be obvious. But, as Evia explained, so many AA women are addicted to what they misconstrue as being "fair." Actually, it's being a FOOL.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

@ PVW re:

They are told the predominanty white campuses are dangerous because they are under attack, ie., that whites don't want them there, etc.

A lot about this comes down to the many NUANCES embedded in the polarized racial environment that we have in the U.S., but some of us have had different experiences with whites and others. I notice that in the bc near me, there is this SAME attitude there. Whenever I go over there, I hear the same type comments, "They don't like us," "They don't want us out there in their part of town," or "They're always watching us," and you hear the black adults telling their children: "Teachers don't want black kids to learn," Teachers don't treat our kids right," etc. There is just way too much negativity. It wears me down sometimes and makes me not want to go over there.

The general mindset of the adults over there is one that teaches black youths to be resentful towards whites.

Of course, this is ***partially*** justified, but none of the NUANCES are ever discussed; it's always a matter of ***absolutes*** for them. Children and youths can't decipher it. Therefore it makes the typical black child there resentful towards whites and teaches them to regard whites with suspicion, fear, distrust, etc. and to feel that all blacks are always under attack.

As an aside, although my husband Darren goes to the black church there (my children go elsewhere) with me and does volunteer tutoring over there, I have to warn him not to say or do certain things there because it'll be misinterpreted since he is being viewed as de evil wm. They "watch" him, LOL! and he's okay with that because he knows the history.

Anyway, this is why some IR couples like us don't like being in all-black environments, but he is very thick-skinned. I guess I have a thick skin too because we mostly live in an all-white environment and I just don't even think about it much at all anymore.

We know that black females--the keepers and protectors of the "community" especially feel they have to arm themselves emotionally against whites for past and present misdeeds. So the typical young bw on those campuses gives off this air to wm to stay away from her. It's very clear that they're like porcupines with quills around wm. I see that quite often or they'll act like the wm is invisible.

On the other hand, typical bm, whether they're on the campus or anywhere else, DEMONSTRATE that they could care less about keeping and protecting the community due to role reversal. They're out there just trying to 'git in where they can fit in.'

I also have a bm cousin who went to a prestigious northern prep school for 6 years where the children of politicians and CEOs attend. Quite naturally, there was only a small percentage of black students attending the school. He said that some of the white boys told him they liked some of the black girls there but were afraid to approach them because the black girls were so standoffish towards them. They said they were afraid that the black girls would insult them because the more vocal black girls did have that kind of porcupine demeanor towards wm. I would watch their behavior sometimes when I went to pick my cousin up after school and even I could see that. These white boys asked my cousin why the black girls were like that. He told them he didn't know why--because, of course, he didn't.

Anyway, he asked black girls to go to 2 of the proms (freshman and senior proms) with him and they did, but barely any of the other black girls went to any of the proms unless black boys asked them and there were only a few black boys at the prep school or the girls invited black boys they knew from somewhere else. Some of the few black boys there preferred to ask white girls to the proms. Virtually all of those black boys have now married ww and one is engaged to a ww now.

Now some of us will pretend that wm are too paranoid and fearful of bw and that the typical bw would be friendly and receptive to an approach from a wm, but I know that's a lie. Many bw would not be able to handle it well and let's just admit that. Some of them would be hostile. So we really need to be real about this. Let's stop denying it and figure out ways to help bw to lower their guard when they are in an environment where the males are Quality or are not predators. This is why bw need to flee these predator environments in the first place and force themselves, if necessary, to mingle with other ethnic groups and races. One of the things that I notice about continental Africans, for ex. is that you tend to see whites at their social gatherings sometimes--weddings, birthday parties for their kids, graduation celebrations, neighborhood cookouts, etc. They don't tend to "demonize" white people.

AA women: You must stop demonizing ALL white people. Demonize INDIVIDUALS (including black individuals) who behave like demons, not whole groups.

Okay, I know some bw will say that wm should just go ahead and take the risk of being insulted and ask a bw out, but that's not normal. Typical human beings are going to avoid situations where there is a greater than even chance that they will be insulted or encounter failure. MOST males in the world are not going to do that.

Also, my Nigerian ex-husband used to tell me that many AA women are/were unfriendly like that even with African men (years ago). I don't know whether that has changed, and they may have been unfriendly towards African men for other reasons. Now we all know or can figure out why AA women are unfriendly in public towards men, but I repeat: a typical male is going to always be drawn towards women who are more friendly and seem to be win-able. AA women need to ask themselves what do they personally need to do to give more non-bm the "green light" because a lot of other bw are out there STILL giving them the red light.

And just keep talking to other bw about this at EVERY opportunity. I definitely talk about these issues offline also and I have succeeded in many instances in getting bw to change their position. Some of them KNOW they need to change, but they're just confused and need help and support in thinking in new and more beneficial ways.

foreverloyal said...

The issue of blocking is an interesting one. One noteworthy thing in my experience, is that most white American muslim men are married to black women.

I suppose when the usual barriers are eliminated or very much diminished and these guys have a large group of available black women, they jump at the chance.

My husband got some griping, quite literally behind his back about his marriage to me. Of course all this posturing and blustering was after the fact, so it was all just impotent rantings. Not that either of us would have cared anyway.

Btw a belated thank you to Evia, it was because of your encouragement that I started my blog in the first place. I really thought you and Halima's blogs dedicated to the subject said all that needed to be said.
When I sat down and thought about it, I realized my perspective and experience could be valuable, and I loved Aimee's blog while it was still active.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

This should be obvious. But, as Evia explained, so many AA women are addicted to what they misconstrue as being "fair." Actually, it's being a FOOL.

My reply:

Or they actually believe that they and black men share the same interests, like what Halima was saying earlier, that they are talking to their "brothers" who care about them and feel the same way they do, and who are looking out for them, and mean right by them.

Isn't that how it all starts? The young men say, we are here to help you understand exactly what is going on:

1. Those evil white boys don't care about you the way we do, so we will continue to block them and demand we have first rights.

We really care, even as we prove that we don't want you, or even as we prove that we only want certain black women in the group, and even as there are fewer of us to go around, we really, really want you;

2. We really, really care about you, but being with these white girls benefits us now, ie., the police situation and getting stopped.

All of this is pure bogus. They don't share the same interests, and it is quite clear the men do not have their interests at heart. It is about protecting their prerogatives.

Moreover, one can argue that a black man with a white woman might be more likely to be stopped by the police, because white men can be just as territorial when it comes to their women "straying".

Earlier generations of black men, ie., under Jim Crow in the South, warned young black men to be careful about being around young white women. Being with a young white woman was guaranteed to get a young black man stopped by the police, arrested, lynched, etc.

Khadija said...

Hello there, PioneerValleyWoman!

You said, "The young men say, we are here to help you understand exactly what is going on:

1. Those evil white boys don't care about you the way we do, so we will continue to block them and demand we have first rights.

We really care, even as we prove that we don't want you, or even as we prove that we only want certain black women in the group, and even as there are fewer of us to go around, we really, really want you;

2. We really, really care about you, but being with these white girls benefits us now, ie., the police situation and getting stopped.

All of this is pure bogus."


This is just too stupid. I'm sorry to say this, but there obviously HAS been a dumbing down of BW over the past 20-25 years. When I was in college, we generally didn't care what the Negroes' excuses were for chasing non-Black girls. Most young BW weren't trying to hear any of that.

Any Negro who chased non-Black girls got the cold shoulder from most of the young BW on campus. Period. Need help with your class studies? Answer: "Go ask those White girls that you love so much; I don't have anything for you."

I also can't imagine us allowing ANY male, much less some hostile Negro male, into a meeting designated for the young BW on campus.

ALL of this is just too stupid. I can't fathom it. Are these modern girls brain dead? They don't even have to connect any dots in these modern campus scenarios. It's overt. These Negroes are drawing them a map of how they are being systematically used & then left out in the cold!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Jaililmaster:

I keep wondering how these bm can know which sort of lies to tell and tricks to play to divert these young bw's minds away from the truth, yet these vary same bw aren't able to tell that they are being played.

Khadija:

This is just too stupid. I'm sorry to say this, but there obviously HAS been a dumbing down of BW over the past 20-25 years.

My reply:

This makes me think about Evia's comments on "vetting" and I wonder whether black mothers and fathers are really educating their daughters on how to navigate relationships with young men.

Many young men often have a repertoire that they develop over time on how to approach different types of women, so that they can "score".

Men spend a lot of time studying women; I'm glad that young woman is turning the tables and saying, let's think of what is happenging! It is up to young women, throughout the vetting process, to listen carefully, observe, and think critically.

In a black student union type group, one card to play is obviously the one about "unity" and understanding the "brothers". The young men know this will get the young black women listening and talking, since they have been primed since childhood to listen to those refrains!

So if the young men come in with their repertoire, the student culture reinforces it. What else is the primary refrain of the black student union chorus, and especially when the faculty/staff who are the advisors to the group sing the same tune! Moreover, the message can be buttressed by the Af-Am Studies Departments...

So these young black women in this college setting can't see the game is on, and they are being played, as others have observed.

Smart women must develop their own repertoire in dealing with men to ensure that they get what they want; this has been the underlying message that Evia has been speaking about--being strategic.

Khadija said...

Hello there, PioneerValleyWoman!

This is still just too stupid.

You said, "This makes me think about Evia's comments on "vetting" and I wonder whether black mothers and fathers are really educating their daughters on how to navigate relationships with young men.

Many young men often have a repertoire that they develop over time on how to approach different types of women, so that they can "score"."


As far as I'm concerned, this boils down to COMMON SENSE. Whenever somebody is advising you to do something other than what they are doing for their own situation, you need to look at that. And it's not just the relationship arena. It's everything.

A female "friend" who advises you to "keep it real" and go to a beauty school or junior college while she goes to a 4-year university needs to be given the side eye.

A female "friend" who advises you that it's okay to openly sleep around while she carefully guards her reputation needs to be given the side eye.

ANYBODY and EVERYBODY who's advising you to do something lesser than, and that leads to fewer options than, what they are choosing for themselves needs to be screened out of your life.

Again, are these young BW brain dead?

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

Hello Khadija,

“I've heard this idea referred to in "fancy talk" as "sensitive dependence on initial conditions." The idea is that even an extremely small error at the beginning can produce a profound problem. Such as how a ship whose bearing is one degree off compass will ultimately end up hundreds of miles off course.”


LOL now that is one heck of a phrase. I will have to memorize that along with the one my 6th grade teacher told me: “speak in the vernacular of your discipline.” I really enjoyed pulling that one out on adults when I was 10-11 so now I will figure out a way to work this into a conversation at school: “You know Susie, it looks like what we have here is a ‘sensitive dependence on initial conditions’…” LOL


“Unfortunately, seemingly small life-damaging choices have a similar effect. Years later, one's life is profoundly off course.”

Yes, and I am thinking of a series/multiple small life damaging choices and what a wreck that looks like.


“At which point, you can have BW-only mentoring meetings to discuss ALL of the things (c&#kblocking, etc.) that we are discussing here. You don't have to, and SHOULDN'T, announce that this information is part of what you'll be discussing. It's best to just do it.”


I am loving it! I live three blocks from a school. How do you prepare/strategize for the Ikes/Ikettes that may get wind?

Aphrodite said...

@ Evia

“IMO, LOTS ( dare I say the majority) of AA women do NOT get good, sound, and timely information BECAUSE they limit themselves to AA social circles and actually believe that what folks in those circles say to them is the GOSPEL.”


True. Everybody has their agenda. It is almost like the life of a BW is pre planned by others and it does not include anything life affirming for her.



“I hear a lot from young bw because the ones I hear from don't want to make these same ole mistakes and some of them have intuitively figured out that lack of good, or pro-bw information is what's causing many bw to go down.”


That is smart. It took a minute to figure out that I was being fed poison. I kept focusing on the love I had for others (and assumed they had for me) – so I kept thinking there is no way they can be giving me poison. I kept focusing on being nice and giving the benefit of the doubt. So it is good to hear that many young BW have this awareness.


“Last night, for ex., I received a long note from a young bw college student who told me that the young bw on her diverse college campus mostly don't date because the bm there mostly date non-bw and yet will not ***allow*** other men (mainly wm) to approach bw. This is known as c%#kblocking. At the same time, these bm are claiming that they have no choice but to date ww because ***according to them,*** it's "safer" in society for a young bm if he dates a ww.”


Ok that is insane. Safer for bm? Considering the history? Lord BM will say anything. Do WW get you free extra cheese on your pizza, require less fertilizer for gardening, prevent computer viruses, make toilet tissue super soft, and reduce your car insurance rates by 40% ??? I mean that is about as much sense as that makes. I wanna rip this guy a new one.

After all it can be argued and proven that a BW dating/marrying anybody but a BM is safer in society – PERIOD. White men are not following BW through stores, leaning out of cars yelling obscenities, street harassing, beating down, raping, molesting, and murdering BW like BM are.




“I even get notes and comments (that I don't post) from folks who claim to be AA males who say they are happily married to Latinas, ww, and other non-bw but they're still reading our bw-IR blogs and taking the time to write long notes/comments detailing to me how undesirable bw are. LOL!!!!!!..... Some of them have virtually memorized portions of my essays and can remember things I said that I can't even remember, yet they claim to be happily married to other women. 'I think they doth protest too much.'”


Nuh-uh, naw, not for real. I am trippin’. BM are crazy. I can’t believe that these men actually are reading your blog and posting. Ooo I am so hating people right now. LOL


Another angle that I have never understood is this: why are MARRIED BM all up in what legions of single women are doing or not doing?? It has never failed that whenever single BW are talking about whatever -some married BM or several - has his snout all up in the Kool Aide giving unsolicited advice (always bad) tips, tricks, and unhelpful suggestions. You married dude, you turned in your playa card! How disrespectful is that to your wife and marriage??


“This steady barrage of "nobody wants you" type messages has obviously had a very negative effect on MANY young black girls and younger bw's self esteem. Many of them now believe that they are undesirable, which is not surprising. As an older bw, I didn't know that nobody wanted me until I started blogging 3 years ago and heard all of this stuff from the Ikes and Ikettes. LOL!! Just think that I, with my brown skin, obviously African descended features and hair, thought I was very desirable and lovable by lots of men (including a few AA men) all of my life for 2 main reasons: (1) these men treated me like a desirable woman and (2) I've spent very little of my time among AAs and other blacks with diseased minds.”


That is proof positive that BM are trying to keep BW in a bad place for using and abusing. I mean it is soooo DV. Most men start out verbally abusing and verbally assaulting you before they move in for the kill with more intense/violent abuse and exploitation. They say things that break you down emotionally and one of the fastest and easiest ways to break a women down is to attack the way she looks. If you want to slowly destroy a woman tell her how ugly she is – repeatedly. If you want her to become OCD/Body dysmorphic pick one part of her body and tell her over and over what’s wrong with it. Eventually you will barely have a functional woman who is depressed and has no confidence.

Since this is so widespread it must be evil and not about looks.

I didn’t realize that ‘nobody wanted me’ until I started trying to date - obviously BM. I had none of #1 and too much of #2 and all of this garbage is too much to dig myself out of. I still have doubts about my beauty and femininity. If it wasn’t for old ladies of all races and white people I would have jumped off a bridge somewhere a long time ago bc those were the only two groups that gave me compliments. At the time I was like why are little old ladies the only ones to compliment me? Now I am grateful. And the killing part for me is that I look at pictures of myself and I think, “Wow my thighs were really toned, my breasts were sooo firm, I had nice skin, white teeth, I was plump, but I had ‘shape’ and I think of these ugg mug men, who are even muglier and I just get enraged.

Sometimes I wonder about my mother and some of the women in my family. Some of the women on my mother’s side of the family have ugly personalities and the cracked mugs to match. That is mean to say I know, but with the ways that they have treated me –it is justified. They had no problem laughing about the mistreatment that I have received from men. Literally- laughing- in my face- at my pain. So now I have no problem launching verbal shots at them to their faces. I snapped on one aunt one time. I wasn’t ghetto, but I stood my ground and demanded respect despite my fear. It felt good and now I don’t have to deal with anymore stuff from her.

My mother is not that bad, but sometimes she says things about herself and me that make me give her the side eye and wonder where he self esteem is. I just change the subject and start talking about the virtues of basmati rice or marigolds.


Right now I don’t trust anything a BM tells me or has ever told me. For the past few weeks I have been reconstructing and picking a part every negative experience I have ever had with a BM and what they told me about myself bc I did take it all in and I need to work through this and get it out. This is my biggest stumbling block when it comes to meeting men bc my instincts take over and I shut down. I have had all manner of cruelty and virulent rejection when I was simply being nice and flirting - and so called BM trust to say that BW don’t smile or have an attitude with them.

Aphrodite said...

Re: the infamous blocking.
I think I had an experience like this yesterday, but I am still wondering. The fridge went out, it was under warranty, so another one had to be delivered. The delivery men came and it was two of them. One was a really tall BM and the other was a really, really cute guy. I was kinda shocked by the cute guy cause well, he was cute to me and it has been a long, long, long time since I have been attracted to someone, and even longer since I have been around a man for any extended period of time that I wasn’t related to. So I was like whoo- hoo high out of my mind on testosterone! I could smell the androgens and they smelled g-o-o-d!

He was maybe 5’7”, nicely built, but I couldn’t tell what race he was. He may have been Hispanic, Middle Eastern or some white ethnic. He had on a baseball cap so I really couldn’t see his hair, but he had the most amazing light eyes and beautiful eyebrows. He kept looking at me and asked me like 3 times in a row if I was doing ok today and then it hit me maybe he was trying to flirt. I was not flawless, but my hair was. I figured well this is not the husband material, but at least I can practice flirting and maybe get a practice date to go somewhere. I tried to be aware of my body language (made sure I wasn’t drooling) and facial expressions so that I wasn’t giving him the ‘hungry look’ despite the fact that I had already pictured him naked the few times he walked past me and then there was the neon ‘fresh meat’ sign (no pun intended) blinking in my mind. So I started making stupid small talk about the weather and what they were doing and asking lots of questions even though I was nervous out of my mind.

Just as I was working up my nerve to say something cute or leave the door open for a number exchange with the cute guy my worthless piece of (fill in with expletive of choice) brother stormed into the house. I don’t know if he was high or drunk or what, but he started yelling and cussing out the men about leaving the front door of the house open. They had to leave it open as they had to take out the old fridge and then bring in the new one. He was rambling about how his mother lives here and his little sister is here and he could have come in and shot and killed us all. I mean they physically had their hands on the fridge- handtruck and all – they hadn’t even got it through the kitchen door to set it in place - while my brother was cussing and yelling at them.

The BM tried to explain they were carrying in the fridge and my brother chewed him out and he shut up. Then the cute guy tried to explain and he and my brother had a longer exchange. My brother told him he was overprotective and that he had nothing to say so the cute guy walked off.

But I noticed that the cute guy was respectful, he didn’t back down, even though my brother deserved a beatdown because that was so out of line. When he came back he had the same respectful attitude towards me as if nothing happened.

I was stunned by the whole ordeal. I wanted to apologize, but my brother was still there and when he left it was too late as they were leaving.

The truth is no one could have closed that door. They were moving heavy furniture and it is ridiculous to expect them to close it and I couldn’t get to it as most of the furniture was moved in front of the 2nd doorway and they were physically blocking the hallway.

At first I thought that this was his craziness, which it is, but I am wondering if this was a form of blocking? I mean I wonder if he was drawn here bc the men were here. He has acted a fool on my male friends before. And the killing part is the times when I was raped he had nothing to say. When this boy beat my backside black and blue (and he knew the guys older brother- they were friends) he told my mom oh well, yall can handle it - so the part about him caring for my safety is bogus. Not to mention that whenever my mom asks him to do something for her- he could care less.

I am thinking this may be blocking, but then that would be sick bc he is my brother. And that is real sick to me.

I thought about calling an apologizing and seeing if I could angle my way to the cute guy that way, but I am like even though they were respectful I know they are never coming here again. I know they were talking up a storm.


“Now some of us will pretend that wm are too paranoid and fearful of bw and that the typical bw would be friendly and receptive to an approach from a wm, but I know that's a lie. Many bw would not be able to handle it well and let's just admit that. Some of them would be hostile. So we really need to be real about this. Let's stop denying it and figure out ways to help bw to lower their guard when they are in an environment where the males are Quality or are not predators.”


This is hard. I don’t come across as hostile, because that is just mean and I am not mean. You have to have a long a bad history with me before I get mean and even then it is calculated. But I do know that I can come across as disinterested/deadpan/closed when I am fearful around men- even if I don’t want to. It upsets me so much I want to cry sometimes. I just keep thinking cruel rejection, cruel rejection, cruel rejection. I know that you say that men respond to women who are winnable and smiling, but my whole experience has been the opposite and it is very hard for me to separate that. I have always been awkward with men and I am even more so now – what little confidence I had is gone. I care, but sometimes I want to just call it a day and embrace my inner cat lady.

Aphrodite said...

@ PioneerValleyWoman

“Don't focus exclusively on the black social groups as their only means of social support. Find allies inside the group and outside, an important lesson for college and beyond.”

Good point.

Re: Women’s Centers

I had no idea that these places existed. Oh man- what I missed. That sounds wonderful. I hope and pray that BW will use this resource.



“This makes me think about Evia's comments on "vetting" and I wonder whether black mothers and fathers are really educating their daughters on how to navigate relationships with young men.”

Not at all and some of the info that BW get would make you sick to your stomach.




@ foreverloyal

“The issue of blocking is an interesting one. One noteworthy thing in my experience, is that most white American muslim men are married to black women.”

Didn’t know that at all. Wow.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

You said, "I am loving it! I live three blocks from a school. How do you prepare/strategize for the Ikes/Ikettes that may get wind?"

Before you do anything in terms of talking to high school/college students, get a copy of whatever Board of Education or university policies apply to outside guests talking to the students. And then make sure to follow the policy.

If you follow the rules, there's very little that the Ikes/Ikettes can do to directly interfere. Unless the Ike/Ikette happens to be the principal/dean, etc. In which case you won't be invited back to speak again. But at that point, you've already "planted some seeds" in the young ladies' minds. Mission accomplished!"

Peace, blessings, and solidarity.

lormarie said...

That is proof positive that BM are trying to keep BW in a bad place for using and abusing.--Aphrodite

This is true for many of them. Thus it is soooooo crucial for black women to stop trying to reason with black misogynists and start "beating" them. One way is for the bw empowerment message to expand from the internet and out into the streets... We need our own version of NOW, NAACP, etc.

JaliliMaster said...

"Evia said...


Okay, I know some bw will say that wm should just go ahead and take the risk of being insulted and ask a bw out, but that's not normal. Typical human beings are going to avoid situations where there is a greater than even chance that they will be insulted or encounter failure. MOST males in the world are not going to do that."


I agree. That's why whenever I see a poster encouraging other-race men to just go up and chat to a bw he likes, I think to myself that bw also need to learn to stop giving out this air of being unapproachable.
______________________

" a typical male is going to always be drawn towards women who are more friendly and seem to be win-able. AA women need to ask themselves what do they personally need to do to give more non-bm the "green light" because a lot of other bw are out there STILL giving them the red light."

This doesn't mean that sistas should start dressing provocatively to show 'green light'. How one presents themselves greatly affects how others treat you. This is part of what Rev Lisa always says about bw fetishizing themselves. If one dresses like those video girls, that is how most people will treat you. But on the other hand, if one dresses as if they are going to a nun convention, you're probably not going to get much better results!
_____________________

"Moreover, one can argue that a black man with a white woman might be more likely to be stopped by the police, because white men can be just as territorial when it comes to their women "straying".

Earlier generations of black men, ie., under Jim Crow in the South, warned young black men to be careful about being around young white women. Being with a young white woman was guaranteed to get a young black man stopped by the police, arrested, lynched, etc."


That's why I myself think that some of these young bw have common sense issues. Additionally, these bm cannot think too highly of these bw's intellect if they think that they'd actually fall for such nonsense.
_____________________

Khadija said...

"This is just too stupid. I'm sorry to say this, but there obviously HAS been a dumbing down of BW over the past 20-25 years. When I was in college, we generally didn't care what the Negroes' excuses were for chasing non-Black girls. Most young BW weren't trying to hear any of that.

Any Negro who chased non-Black girls got the cold shoulder from most of the young BW on campus. Period. Need help with your class studies? Answer: "Go ask those White girls that you love so much; I don't have anything for you."



A lady once related a story of how in her college days, her and her friends(fellow bw) were invited to a party by a black fraternity. When they arrived, the guys started shouting..."the ho's are here, the ho's are here". Alot of the girls were embarrassed and cringeing. It seems the guys who were shouting it(and these were all college students, both the ladies who were being 'jokingly' called ho's and the foolish negroes who were doing it) were either completely oblivious to how offended these girls were or just didn't care. The lady who told the story said that what annoyed her the most was that alot of the guys in the party were people that she had practically carried through Economics class, yet they had the audacity to insult her and her friends that way. However, what disgusted me the most was when she then said that instead of turning back, these young women swallowed their anger and actually went in to the party!
________________________


PioneerValleyWoman said...

"In a black student union type group, one card to play is obviously the one about "unity" and understanding the "brothers". The young men know this will get the young black women listening and talking, since they have been primed since childhood to listen to those refrains!"

That's what I don't get. These black 'unity' lines don't work on bm, so why do bw still keep on swallowing it? What is being drummed into their head from childhood that is not being emphasised with the boys that affects their approach to hearing such bogus nonsense?
______________________

"So if the young men come in with their repertoire, the student culture reinforces it. What else is the primary refrain of the black student union chorus, and especially when the faculty/staff who are the advisors to the group sing the same tune! Moreover, the message can be buttressed by the Af-Am Studies Departments..."


That's why I worry about the young black girls on these campuses going to, say, a professor in their Af-Am studies department. They are just as likely to be Ike's or even Ikettes!
__________________________


Khadija said...

"A female "friend" who advises you to "keep it real" and go to a beauty school or junior college while she goes to a 4-year university needs to be given the side eye.

A female "friend" who advises you that it's okay to openly sleep around while she carefully guards her reputation needs to be given the side eye.

ANYBODY and EVERYBODY who's advising you to do something lesser than, and that leads to fewer options than, what they are choosing for themselves needs to be screened out of your life."



I know of a despicable woman who set up her "best friend" to be raped(gang-raped) because she was angry that the girl was still a virgin. It's not like they were grown or anything, the friend was barely 17. After the ordeal, she was happy that her friend had now been 'used' the way she was by several of the men she had dated.
_____________________


"Again, are these young BW brain dead?"

I'm convinced that some have serious issues. How else does one explain the gullibility?!
________________________

" Aphrodite said...
Re: the infamous blocking.

At first I thought that this was his craziness, which it is, but I am wondering if this was a form of blocking? I mean I wonder if he was drawn here bc the men were here. He has acted a fool on my male friends before. And the killing part is the times when I was raped he had nothing to say. When this boy beat my backside black and blue (and he knew the guys older brother- they were friends) he told my mom oh well, yall can handle it - so the part about him caring for my safety is bogus. Not to mention that whenever my mom asks him to do something for her- he could care less.

I am thinking this may be blocking, but then that would be sick bc he is my brother. And that is real sick to me."

This IS blocking. The fact that a guy is cock-blocking doesn't mean that he wants to sleep with you. All it means is that he doesn't want the guy he is blocking to have you. It can be done for many different reasons. Afterall, try going to a bar/club(not a black one). There will be hordes of bm there and very few bw. Most of the bw would be alone or with her friends. If any of these bm are really interested, they would chat these women up. But alot of the time, they don't. They are there to get the women they believed they'd see there, and we know it ain't bw. But the moment a non-bm starts talking to a bw, it's as if there is some sort of halo around her, and alot of the bm would start giving her eye, even though they are with another woman. Then the cockblocking begins. If the bm succeeds at the blocking, and the other guy eventually leaves, the blocker is leaving as well. If his real intention was to date you, he wouldn't lose interest the moment the non-black fella gives up. Additionally, he would have been interested in you BEFORE that guy came up.

The fact that he is your brother doesn't mean he can't cockblock. Most bm don't want their sisters(I'm talking about blood sisters here) dating another race man as well, while having no problem with, and alot of the time even congratulating their male relatives when they come home with Becky, Guadalupe or MingLee.

That's part of the reason I cannot stand Spike Lee. Can you believe that he actually fired a sista from a role she had already been cast for when he found out that her boyfriend was white? This is the same man who didn't mind using Wesley Snipes as one of his 'muses' depsite the fact that the fella only goes for yella(Asian). This is the same Spike Lee who is completely obsessed with Black/Italian relationships and will take advantage of any opportunity to show a completely gratuitious sex scene as long as it involves a bm and an italian woman. Even though it has twazzocks all to do with the story line......okay, rant over, lol!

Khadija said...

Hello there, Lormarie!

You said, "One way is for the bw empowerment message to expand from the internet and out into the streets... We need our own version of NOW, NAACP, etc."

Yep. I would suggest that those who share this sentiment get to work!
_________________________

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

You said, "I know of a despicable woman who set up her "best friend" to be raped(gang-raped) because she was angry that the girl was still a virgin. It's not like they were grown or anything, the friend was barely 17. After the ordeal, she was happy that her friend had now been 'used' the way she was by several of the men she had dated."

Every time I hear of one of these female-facilitated rapes, I would like to take an aluminum baseball bat to these female beasts.

About Spike Lee: Yep. He's a DBRBM. I was finally through with his movies after Mo' Better Blues, where marriage and family life were the "booby prizes" that the main character only accepted after he couldn't play the trumpet anymore. Hmmph. The documentary he did on Katrina was good; but he's FOUL when it comes to BW's image and interests.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Jalilimaster:

That's what I don't get. These black 'unity' lines don't work on bm, so why do bw still keep on swallowing it? What is being drummed into their head from childhood that is not being emphasised with the boys that affects their approach to hearing such bogus nonsense?

My reply:

Because black girls are the ones who are primarily taught the unity message, not black boys. Black girls are taught to think about unity, but in terms of making them compromise themselves and give, give, give, or accept what is "less than," in the name of "unity".

JaliliMaster said...

"About Spike Lee: Yep. He's a DBRBM. I was finally through with his movies after Mo' Better Blues, where marriage and family life were the "booby prizes" that the main character only accepted after he couldn't play the trumpet anymore. Hmmph. The documentary he did on Katrina was good; but he's FOUL when it comes to BW's image and interests."



I have never been on the Spike Lee train. Too much of his work is substandard. What was even more annoying about Mo' Better Blues is that the main character had two women, any of whom he could have ended up with. All it said was that he only ended up with his wife because the other woman dumped him for the other guy(Wesley) that could play the sax. Over 75% of the lines in his movie are pointless. I was going to watch She Hate Me....till I saw the preview. The grammar was incredible poor!

Aphrodite said...

@Jallimaster


Thanks for clarifying that.

I called the cute guy yesterday and apologized. He seemed cool and said he paid it no mind.

I called myself leaving the door open - dunno if he will take me up.