Gina, the blog host at What About Our Daughters, has held a series of conversations that have touched on the culture war among African-Americans. The topics of Black women saving their own lives through fleeing Black residential areas and divesting from all non-reciprocating entities (most Black organizations, Black men who are not protecting and providing for Black women and children, etc.) came up during these discussions. Please read through these conversations.
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2009/04/somebody-declared-a-black-culture-war-and-didnt-let-me-know-about-it-naacp-endorses-tyler-perry/
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2009/04/we-ignore-these-%e2%80%99small-insults%e2%80%99-to-our-peril/
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2009/04/tyler-perry-and-pol-pot-when-you-begin-to-consume-your-own-you%e2%80%99re-done/
http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2009/04/how-do-your-define-the-ark-and-divesting/
You'll note that there's one particularly strident commenter calling herself "Seattle Slim" who is insisting that African-American women should not, and must not, divest. And that we should not, and must not, get on any "Ark" to save our own lives.
Well, it's interesting to discover that this same individual got on an Ark herself, and LEFT her BLACK country to come to majority-White America. And apparently, Ms. Slim still has NOT gone back to live in her Black country!
http://happynappyhead.blogspot.com/2009/04/im-getting-banned-oh-well.html
Obviously, there must be some sort of a problem in her Black country. Masses of people don't just leave their own country for no reason. Seattle Slim didn't "stay and fight" to improve conditions in her Black country. Her immediate family didn't "stay and fight" to improve conditions in their Black country. THEY LEFT.
It was okay for her and her family to "cut and run" from their Black country to seek a better life in majority-White America, but she demands that African-Americans "stay and fight" to improve conditions in U.S. Black residential areas.
When a commenter points out to Ms. Slim that she divested herself, and is part of a "brain drain" fleeing her own Black country, she's quick to justify it: She still gives back to her Black country, yadda, yadda, yadda. Okay, fine. I don't have a problem with people seeking out what's best for themselves. My issue only starts when these same individuals want to block MY people from seeking out what's best for ourselves. If it wasn't "defeatist" for her and her immediate family to seek out a better life AWAY from her Black country, it's equally not "defeatist" for African-American women to seek out better lives AWAY from Black residential areas.
Unfortunately, this isn't the first time that outsiders have deliberately given African-Americans advice that they didn't follow for themselves. Many Jewish-Americans did the same thing throughout the 1960s. Jewish-Americans did not solve their problems with anti-Semitism by having protest marches. They solved their problems through education, and building Jewish businesses that could offer employment to Jewish people. However, whenever African-Americans attempt the same strategies, Jews (and other White Americans) have been quick to tell us that this is "separatism" and something that we shouldn't do.
The true test of what people really think is a good strategy is what they do for THEMSELVES. If somebody is telling you that you must do something other than what they did for themselves, watch out! And examine this person's motives. They probably don't wish you well.
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67 comments:
Hello Khadija,
Why is someone who is not a part of the AA community trying to tell AA's what they need to be doing? What is that about? Why is this person even in conversations that have nothing to do with her?
Ok so this person is saying they grew up in mayberry and yet like you pointed out- she didn't stay.
She is dating a WM and yet is calling out BW for showing other BW options.
I read some of the comments and they are all coming from a BM centered support the status quo type value system. Also there seems to be this support the diaspora bc not all with African ancestry are having the same community experience which is fine, but it reeks of give me your goodies and don't ask for anything in return.
It constantly amazes me how people who don't agree with a certain point-of-view, that really doesn't affect them, spend so much time and energy trying to convince others that it's "crazy", "defeatist", you have self-hate, etc.
That person's experience is completely from a non-American black woman's perspective..so what is their rabid protestation really about ? What is so threatening about the women who ARE impacted (black American women)trying to save their lives and the lives of their children ?
I went over to her blog and found this gem:
Seeing as how I am going to be banned, peace, love and blessings. I can NO longer patronize a site by black women who would let any man, ESPECIALLY a white male, call them girls and let him get away with it because their eyes are seriously covered by scales. God bless you all.--Seattle
She appears to be saying two things:
A black man disrespecting black women is just a little bit better than a white man disrespecting us.
-She's implying that black women should be saving people who do not want to be saved.
I haven't really disagreed much with Seattle Slim but she does not seem to understand that she cannot impose her will on another human being no matter how good her intentions are. Is someone wants to join a gang and commit crimes all day, there is NOTHING she can do about it.
You also make a strikingly good point about her standing. She is a woman who clearly divested but she doesn't want others to divest. Does she not understand that emigration in and of itself is divestment? She's basically saying that she and her family were "self-defeating" by coming to the United States. She's basically putting down all immigrants and she doesn't realize it.
She is dating a WM and yet is calling out BW for showing other BW options--Aphrodite
I noticed the same thing. It's almost like she feels guilty for dating a white man and now needs to make up for it by telling AA's they should not divest (like she has).
In effect:
It's a "Do as I say & Not as I do" ...Black women need to realize it's NOT their jobs to SAVE the Black Community...Which is going down faster than a sinking ship...At least the occupants of the same sinking ship know to throw the dead weight overboard to try to save themselves!
Good Morning, Ladies!
Here's my take on what's underlying this sort of thing:
AA women are a resource that MANY other people have benefitted from. If AA women start to focus on our own interests, then these other entitites (BM, Black-skinned foreigners, etc.) LOSE a precious resource. Here's why I say this:
Who's voices were loudest protesting the situation with Ahmadou Diallo? His fellow Africans or AAs?
Who's voices were loudest protesting the situation with Abner Louima? His fellow Haitians or AAs?
AA women are the majority of the foot soldiers for the organizations that protest situations like the ones I've named above (NAACP, Operation Push, National Action Network). If AA women turn our energies over to our own interests, who's going to scream and fall out trying to get justice for foreign-origin Blacks? AAs are the ones in the forefront of screaming and falling out for "justice."
Let me continue:
Whose efforts in the civil rights movement made all the goodies (diversity slots, affirmative action, more-open immigration policies, etc.) available for people (including foreign-origin Blacks)? Answer: AAs' efforts.
I find it interesting how everybody EXCEPT AA women have an INSTINCT for protecting their access to resources. I believe that other people's desire to continue to benefit from AA women's energy and efforts is what is underlying all of this. If more of us divest and pursue our OWN interests, then we are no longer a resource for all these other people. They don't want that to happen.Peace, blessings and solidarity.
All of the ladies who have posted thus far have stated what I was thinking, so kudos to everyone.
Pinky said:
That person's experience is completely from a non-American black woman's perspective..so what is their rabid protestation really about? What is so threatening about the women who ARE impacted (black American women)trying to save their lives and the lives of their children?Khadija said:
AA women are a resource that MANY other people have benefitted from. If AA women start to focus on our own interests, then these other entitites (BM, Black-skinned foreigners, etc.) LOSE a precious resource.Exactly.
I always appreciate reading different perspectives - I've often learned something I didn't know before, or changed my thinking because of someone who raised a point I had not taken into consideration. That said, there is a point where people believe what they will and attempts to browbeat to get them to agree with you (and then insult them when they don't) is waste of time and energy.
Khadija, you've referenced being prepared for some of the hateration those of us serious about our interests may face - and this is a practical example of that.
Anyway, onward and upward. Thank you for the post, Khadija.
Most Caribbeans & Africans who leave their homes are not 'divesting', as you say. Most have warm memories of home and don't have the same feelings of treachery you are talking about. They enjoy reinvesting in their own countries and go back frequently.
I just HAVE to repost what you said on Gina's blog because it bears repeating...To the 'Keepin' It Real' crowd
Khadija Wrote:
"A pile of dog feces is “real.” This does not mean that I’m going to pay to see it, defend it, or lift it up as something worthy of support..."I think imma have to just repost this EVERYWHERE! LOL
I''m jsut curious Khadija...why do you view Caribbeans & Africans as your enemy? I can feel your hosility, from here.
I have a real problem with the fact that she disrespected Gina's very simple request and then had the nerve to try to get stupid about it. This is the result of us not doing a better job of policing our boundaries. Everybody thinks they can just come in and tell us what to do. Clearly she has the same disregard lack of respect for us as I've often encountered in non-native born black people. They want us to keep throwing ourselves into the breach so they can continue to benefit, plus, if we elevate ourselves, they can longer lift themselves up by putting us down.
This situation was on my mind somewhat, and I'm glad you posted about it.I was truly confused by what was going on over there.
The most frustrating thing for me was how posters kept bringing up "Black communities all over the world" when that is not the issue. The issue is what African-AMERICAN women need to do. How can they not see the difference? A distinction is being made between self-preservation and divestment, but in the AA woman's scenario, they are one and the same.
Perhaps these posters doesn't have malicious intent, but they are coming from a different perspective than AA's. They are not living the AA experience, so their opinions and solutions should be weighted accordingly.
Hi Kahdija,
My issue with what she says is this:
What does she suggest that AA women do? Is it plausible, is it something new, is it realistic?
Truth is, we have tried it all. Now the truth is that we have a responsibility and obligation to take care of ourselves first. That is the core of divestment - self care.
I read something from one of her commentors that we should invest not leave. Hmmm. When I get my education and invest in a home in our (mostly black) communities I invest money, heart and soul. That is all I am willing to invest. When the neighborhood becomes unsafe, violent or goes down despite my best efforts I will divest. I refuse to live around folks who will hurt me, steal from me etc. Just because you look like me does NOT mean you give a dang about me and my happiness or safety at all.
I too used to believe that I would always live in an all black neighborhood. NOW I understand that it is TIME to consider living in a mixed environment. I am preparing myself to move on in the next 3-4 years as I watch the changes occur. Some may call it defeat - I call it deciding to live the best life I can. I believe in helping when others are willing to help themselves but I refuse to suffer with you.
Those commentors who want to continue fighting and yet still keep on holding on instead of putting their efforts into making their life better and stepping out of the cage they created for themselves, I say let them go for it. It is their life. I will be moving on into mine.
I don't get how it's okay for her and her family to come this country because her mom couldn't find a job but it's not okay for american BW to leave black communities because people are killing them. Excuse me? Do really blighted black communities have great jobs in them? No... Do really blighted black communities have way too much violence against women and children? Yes... So, black women should stay because? I loved how she said she donates and will be buried there. I'm sure that her donations and her corpse will contribute just as much as her living and working there would have. If she'd acknowledge that she divested herself but thinks that it's a bad thing to do, I'd understand. However as it stands it just seem hypocritical.
Roslyn said: I have a real problem with the fact that she disrespected Gina's very simple request and then had the nerve to try to get stupid about it. This is the result of us not doing a better job of policing our boundaries. Everybody thinks they can just come in and tell us what to do.------------------
BINGO.
I think it's ridiculous that she (and her mother) divested from her Carribbean home to make a better life for their family in the U.S., but she's advocating that black women stay in the hood and fight. *rolls my eyes all the way back into my stomach*
If she would have waited until the end of the week when Gina said she was going to do a post where dissenters could express their thoughts, she probably could have said what she wanted to say and been able to have a dialogue with Khadija and other women who support divestment. Nope. She had to be hardheaded and try and force her opinions through anyway and she got banned.
Typical.
On another note, I read Gina's blog frequently and have even commented myself, but I do sometimes wish she would filter her comment section better (I'm sorry but she has a bit too many white men --meaning more than zero LOL -- up in her comments offering lectures).
Hello there, Daphne!
You said, "Khadija, you've referenced being prepared for some of the hateration those of us serious about our interests may face - and this is a practical example of that.
Anyway, onward and upward. Thank you for the post, Khadija."You're welcome! Yes, this little episode points out many of the dynamics that we've been discussing over the past few months. It's all coming together. Like you said, ONWARD AND UPWARD.
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Hello there, Anonymous!
You said, "Most Caribbeans & Africans who leave their homes are not 'divesting', as you say. Most have warm memories of home and don't have the same feelings of treachery you are talking about. They enjoy reinvesting in their own countries and go back frequently."Ah...denial and more denial. Any way you choose to slice it, the bottom line is that these people RAN AWAY from their Black countries; with or without "warm memories." THEY LEFT.
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Hello there, CW!
Who ever said that being "real" was the criterion? I just don't get that. Feel free to use that quote! LOL!
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Hello again, Anonymous!
I see that now you've decided to play one of the Internet Ike Turner/Ikette games of "Playing Indignant" INSTEAD OF responding to any of the substantive points raised in the post.
I described this ploy in the post Table Talk for Activists, Part 4: Handling Internet Ike Turners:
"Play Indignant
Avoid discussing any of the points that are raised, and instead talk about how offended you are by the very premise of the discussion. Naive opponents will discuss and debate the merits of your decision to take offense at the discussion."My issue has always been with the exploitation of AA women, regardless of who the perpetrator of that exploitation may be.
Anonymous, I don't have time to waste with games. Come back if and when you have something responsive and substantive to say.
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Hello there, Roslyn!
You said, "I have a real problem with the fact that she disrespected Gina's very simple request and then had the nerve to try to get stupid about it. This is the result of us not doing a better job of policing our boundaries. Everybody thinks they can just come in and tell us what to do."I agree. This behavior pattern comes back to AAs, and OUR failure to enforce boundaries with outsiders. It's not just this particular individual. As I mentioned in the post LOTS of other people feel that they can just breeze in among AAs and start lecturing us, and dictating to us.
This is why I'm sounding the alarm about this pattern. If AA women are going to advance, we must be VERY careful of who we listen to. You mentioned this in one of your posts when you discussed AA women taking relationship advice from BM._________________
Hello there, Aisha!
You said, "The most frustrating thing for me was how posters kept bringing up "Black communities all over the world" when that is not the issue. The issue is what African-AMERICAN women need to do. How can they not see the difference? A distinction is being made between self-preservation and divestment, but in the AA woman's scenario, they are one and the same."This behavior pattern has been described as "entitlement and intrusion." These folks feel entitled to intrude upon AA conversations about AA circumstances. They feel entitled to butt in and redefine our circumstances to suit THEIR emotional needs. And many of us unwittingly put up with this.
Just imagine what would happen if an AA came onto an African or West Indian discussion board to lecture them what they need to do about their issues? All hell would break loose.
You said, "Perhaps these posters doesn't have malicious intent, but they are coming from a different perspective than AA's. They are not living the AA experience, so their opinions and solutions should be weighted accordingly."Well, I always question the motives of "Do as I say, not as I do" folks. But my main point is that AA women need to be VERY careful about who we listen to.
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Hello there, Enigma!
You said, "Those commentors who want to continue fighting and yet still keep on holding on instead of putting their efforts into making their life better and stepping out of the cage they created for themselves, I say let them go for it. It is their life. I will be moving on into mine."That's how I feel; folks are perfectly free to continue fighting what they believe is "the good fight."
I'm talking to those AA women who have the nagging suspicion that continuing on that path is not in our best interests. Like I said in the post, people are free to do whatever they want. I only take exception at the point when they start blocking others from finding safety, freedom, and self-actualization.
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Hello there, Zoopath!
I feel you. This is a literally LIFE & DEATH issue. She and the other naysayers can do what they want. Just as long as they don't try to block others (specifically MY people) from the escape hatch.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I'm going to tell you what...you ladies are NO JOKE. Sometimes I think the comments are better than the articles. And when those stupid trolls comment, y'alls let him/her HAVE IT...Good for you good for you! Hold it down. Just love this!
Gina shot herself in the foot when she decided to put limitations on the natural flow of the conversation. How can anything be explored in full when the goal is to exert force instead of discuss ideas? That's why nobody bothered to go back on Monday to say anything. Clearly potential contributors were turned off.
Plus disparaging communities (Caribbean & African) that have been more successful than yours is not going to get you what you want. Maybe you should listen to what they may have to contribute to gain new insights.
I followed the link you posted and was ready to give her a piece of my mind as I thought she was African. When I read her post and she said she was Carribean, I decided to leave it.
What I found MOST annoying about her was the fact that Gina made it absolutely clear that the post was only for those already on the opinion of divesting and definitions of the ark. This poster(Seattle Slim) knew that if she wanted to disagree, she could wait for the next post. She actually went ahead to disrespect Gina's blog. I'm glad she got banned.
And I was wondering why she, for some reason, kept on using your name in her post on her site.
What I find so disingenious about her is her hypocrisy. I only started to see divesting as including going as far as leaving the country when that sister(Beverly in Paris), told her story. She divested. What Seattle Slim did IS NO DIFFERENT than that. I'm trying to understand her motivations for this and it makes no sense. She has no stake in AA women maintaining the status quo. I guess some folks need to see others suffer to feel good about themselves!
And to that Anonymous that keeps on posting, of everything that you could say on this matter, you chose to moan!
I know that should things go terribly wrong, I have the option of going to staying anywhere in England, Scotland, Wales or Nigeria at the drop of a hat. The majority of African-American women do not have that luxury. I get very suspect when those who have taken advantage of something try to encourage others to not follow suit.
I'm not Carribean, so I won't pretend to know what her deal is or where she is coming from, but I know that what she did does count as divesting.
See how she jumped on the comments of that white male poster in order to discredit the other Black women who were posting there.
Hello there! {waves}
I knew that you would not miss the opportunity to call out blatant hypocrisy and shadiness!
{raised black glove}
Internet Ike Turners will accuse black women who speak about leaving all-black constructs that subjugate black women as "bitter"...and "hateful" towards black men!
Black men have already divested...just ask the millions of black children who are illegitimate or fatherless where Daddy is and why he isn't contributing in their live on a daily basis.
I believe that statistic of ABSENT black fathers impacts 70% to 80% of black children now. This is clearly intentional and willful black male abdication and no one can call it anything BUT!
You won't hear those "dissenting" female commenters mention this fact however. They KNOW it is fact.
With half of black girls being raped by black adolescents or black men BEFORE they turn 21...it is clear that the predators are getting immunity in all black constructs.
You won't hear those "dissenting" female commenters mention this fact however. They KNOW it is fact.
Aisha makes a good point.
It is amazing to me that as American writers, we often encounter black foreigners who wonder WHY our discussions focus on blacks in our own country. Do we have to justify WHY the quality of life for blacks in our own nation has our attention?
I had a discussion on the pecking order of black (American) women in this country and an African commenter wanted to know if this pecking order applies to native African (and presumably African women who are immigrants here)...well go ASK the Africans who are here at a blog written by an African woman who is in America and get her take on the issue!
I am writing from an American perspective on issues that impact black Americans (and I don't mean these green-paper-citizens whose parents were illegal immigrants and who had a baby over here. By a loop hole they are American citizens so they are essentially "sneak through the back door" Americans.
And they want to tell US what to do about black issues in our own country?
Khadija, remember when a commenter at my blog said that I was an immigrant who CAME TO America? *LOL* Gee...now I am labeled an immigrant... by writing a post supporting strict immigration laws? *LOL*
I am writing about black (American) women in America because the primary readership of my blog is black women in America.
@ Enlightened
You mentioned how men try to step into these forums for women with their advice and lectures (and even their insults). I don't let men take over my comment section at my blog forum. I have a list of "pre-screened" male correspondents who can speak in my forum.
This is a necessary discussion and we can all prepare for the JIBBERISH of the anti-divestment crew as this dialogue spreads to other blogs.
We can also prepare for the "dissenters" to misrepresent, distort and blatantly lie about my positions, Khadija's positions and anyone else who is pro-divestment.
I've already seen one blog ATTEMPTING to summarize my four-part divestment series with "Lisa feels black women should leave the black community". This blogger happens to be female...and THAT was her remedial interpretation at her blog.
We can expect more of that jibberish to crop up on the blogs of female and male bloggers who don't have a CLUE what the tenets of divestment actually are.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
All I know is that Black women PERIOD, need to seperate from the greater Black community because NONE OF THEM mean us any good, I don't care if these communities are in Africa, Caribbean, Europe, Canada, or U.S. Seattle was off-base, but just the same I hate to see us sistas fighting because we already have enough enemies.
Girl
I noticed this new commentator too. Seattle Slim is a Black woman who is dating a white man in Seattle I guess. She sounds familiar. there was a chick from Seattle who was married to a white man who use to try to bully Evia too. I can't remember her name. They may be the same person. She is burning her britches online.
I remember on one of the Tyler Perry posts, she made a comment that the Madea character wasn't 'far from reality'. Had the same character been made, but instead, been specifically targetd at CArribean women, I'm sure her stance on the issue would have been different.
I also noticed how she kept on railing against the women who were 'degrading themselves', while having little criticism for Plies himself. Here's a comment she left:
"Would I stay and live in a ghetto and risk my kids’ lives? HELL no. I’d sooner move to Antarctica, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t help those who don’t have people to take care of them."
Yet this same woman was criticising others for wanting to do the same! She also posted the following:
"The problems affecting af-ams were not simply due to television. That’s a cop out. Sometimes “art” imitates life."
In her mind, all the negative portrayals of African-Americans on screen are real. I'll be waiting to hear whether she thinks all the negative portrayals of people from er country(wherever she's from) are real.
" Anonymous said...
Gina shot herself in the foot when she decided to put limitations on the natural flow of the conversation. How can anything be explored in full when the goal is to exert force instead of discuss ideas? That's why nobody bothered to go back on Monday to say anything. Clearly potential contributors were turned off."
Obviously, you and I were reading two VERY different blog posts. It is a very common tactic of Internet Ike Turners(and Ikettes), to try and turn the discussion away from the topic at hand. As far as I'm concerned, Gina actually WASTED TOO MUCH TIME in enforcing those strict rules. The fact that those posters were still allowed to post(especially that Seattle Slim character) was more than enough, even though it was obvious, to me atleast, that they were INTENTIONALLY trying to misconstrue whatever was being said.
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"Plus disparaging communities (Caribbean & African) that have been more successful than yours is not going to get you what you want. Maybe you should listen to what they may have to contribute to gain new insights."
Please stop being silly. Which 'more successful' community are you talking about. You cannot compare those who belong to the middle class in, say, Ghana, to your average African-American community. If you want to compare communitites, do so along equivalent class-lines. What are you using to measure success? You cannot take a country that is predominantly black and compare their entire socio-economic spectrum to the entire AA community then try to gloat because you believe AA's come up looking worse, intentionally ignoring the fact that Blackss are a minority in America.
If you want to be fair, compare the state of Black Americans to that of Black South Africans. Despite the fact that Blacks are a majority in SA, their situation is far worse than anything one would encounter in America. Or how about Haiti? Are they, as a country, 'more successful' than African Americans? Please try and use some common sense before you post!
And as I was wondering with Seattle Slim, if everything is all so hunky dory whereve it is that you come from, why aren't you still there?
Hello there, Enlightened!
Like I said earlier, this boils down to the question of, "Who will benefit from AA women's mental energy and resources? AA women themselves OR other people?" If more AA women divest from non-reciprocating entities, then a LOT of other people lose some free "goodies" that they've grown fat off of.
Would the atrocities committed on Abner Louima or Ahmadou Diallo have become known nation-wide in the US without AA protesters screaming and falling out about them? NO! And the "scream and fall-out" organizations (NAACP, NAN, Operation Push) have AA women as the majority of the foot soldiers.
A LOT of other folks have been benefitting from AA women's efforts. They don't want this to stop.
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Hello there, Traci!
Oh, yeah. Many of us are TOTALLY serious about encouraging AA women to save their own lives. It's no joke. This is life and death we're talking about. Play time is over.
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Hello again, Anonymous!
What you don't seem to comprehend is that Gina's blog is GINA'S blog. She can run HER blog however she sees fit. It's not for you to try to set policy for somebody else's blog. If you don't like it, you can refrain from participating in that person's blog. Period.
Also, I see that now you've decided to play yet ANOTHER one of the Internet Ike Turner/Ikette games INSTEAD OF responding with any substance.
I described this ploy in the post Table Talk for Activists, Part 4: Handling Internet Ike Turners:
"Start a Flame War
Say something insulting or condescending to goad opponents into emotional responses. This way you can shift the conversation away from the issue at hand, and onto other people's emotionalism. For extra credit points, leave a link in your insulting comment to an IIT blog in order to lure opponents there to be insulted some more."This is the last bit of nonsense that I'm going to publish from you. Either come correct with something of substance to say, or refrain from submitting nonsensical, diversionary comments.
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Hello there, JaliliMaster!
You said, "I know that should things go terribly wrong, I have the option of going to staying anywhere in England, Scotland, Wales or Nigeria at the drop of a hat. The majority of African-American women do not have that luxury. I get very suspect when those who have taken advantage of something try to encourage others to not follow suit."That's the problem. It's a perfect example of "Now that I'M aboard the ship, pull the ladder up so nobody else can avoid drowning."You said, "See how she jumped on the comments of that white male poster in order to discredit the other Black women who were posting there."I caught that too. She didn't have a CREDIBLE, SUBSTANTIVE response to the points that were raised, so she jumped on the easier target of some uninvited White troll who had nothing to do with what anybody else was saying.
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Hello there, Lisa!
{waving}
Guurl...I don't like sabotage or saboteurs. And I'm convinced that this was about DELIBERATE sabotage, as opposed to somebody being confused or legitimate dissent. Here's why:
This Seattle Slim individual was HELL-BENT on STOPPING any efforts by AAs for self-protection.
She didn't want AAs to resist the denigrating images set forth by Tyler Perry. She didn't want AA women to save their own lives by leaving Black residential areas. She didn't want us to do anything at all to resist the onslaught of attacks against our persons, our dignity, or our spirits as AA women.
As I said in the post from 10/5/08 titled The Difference Between Legitimate Dissent and Sabotage"
"3-Is the person hell-bent on trying to discourage you from protecting yourself against attacks? Is the person focused on trying to stop you from punishing those individuals who attack Black women and girls?
In the context of the ongoing war against Black women and girls, legitimate dissent is when a person says "I disagree with blah-blah. Here are the reasons why I disagree with blah-blah. Therefore, I won't support blah-blah action." And leaves it at that.People who are fixated on stopping you from taking action against those who attack Black women and girls, want you to remain under attack. They want you to remain defenseless. They want you (and women like you) to suffer. By supporting the status quo, they are supporting a continuation of Black women's and girls' suffering.
This is true no matter how much (or how loudly) such a person screams that they support Black women. If they are engaged in the above-listed behaviors they are most likely a saboteur. Treat them as such."Time out on saboteurs.
The other thing about this is that as an African-American, MY ancestors bought and paid for this ENTIRE country. AA people paid for this bad fella! For CENTURIES, unlike these people who are/were citizens of OTHER countries. Every square inch of this country...ALL of it, belongs to us. We are entitled to live wherever we want in OUR own country.You were correct when you said, "This is a necessary discussion and we can all prepare for the JIBBERISH of the anti-divestment crew as this dialogue spreads to other blogs.
We can also prepare for the "dissenters" to misrepresent, distort and blatantly lie about my positions, Khadija's positions and anyone else who is pro-divestment.
...We can expect more of that jibberish to crop up on the blogs of female and male bloggers who don't have a CLUE what the tenets of divestment actually are."Ladies, get ready. As we seek clarity about our TRUE position and explore our TRUE options, expect HEAVY resistance and interference. Both from confused people, and from saboteurs.
___________________
Hello there, Anonymous!
You said, "Seattle was off-base, but just the same I hate to see us sistas fighting because we already have enough enemies."My concern is that it's somehow only perceived as "fighting" if somebody fights back after the initial attack. Seattle Slim disrespected Gina's blog house. She loudly disrespected those AA women who were discussing the merits of AA women saving their own lives by getting on the ark.
She did all of this even though SHE got on an Ark herself and ran away from her Black country.
She then chose to misrepresent my arguments on her own blog.
I ignore a LOT of things. But all of this added together was too much to let slide. This hypocrite is playing games with the physical safety of AA women. That's intolerable. AA women's lives are literally at stake.
There will be more divestment discussions in the future. I can see that this divestment "meme" is spreading throughout AA circles.
This particular hypocrite will probably choose to add "a cup of deception" and "a teaspoon of poison" to future divestment conversations. If so, I want a wide range of people to know her backstory so they can put her comments in their proper perspective. This is one of the reason why I decided to "out" this individual as a hypocrite.
The other reason is to give a detailed example of why AA women have to screen and vet the people that we take advice from.
___________________
Hello there, Sistrunkqueen!
Guurrl...Time out on saboteurs.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, JaliliMaster!
You said, "I remember on one of the Tyler Perry posts, she made a comment that the Madea character wasn't 'far from reality'. Had the same character been made, but instead, been specifically targetd at CArribean women, I'm sure her stance on the issue would have been different."I'm so happy that you (and I'm sure others) caught that as well. I'm deliberately not getting into those particular angles. I'll let you (as an African) deal with that and the "if everything is just peachy-keen in your country, why haven't you gone back there to live?" angles. LOL!
If I start talking about those aspects of her bad-faith comments, I will be accused of "bashing" non-AAs. So, I'll be (relatively) quiet on that tip. *Smile*
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Thanks for the hits! :) I am so flattered! Guess you couldn't resist the "cyber-food fight" invitation, eh Khadija?
Hello, Seattle Slim.
Your extreme hypocrisy provided a "teachable moment."
You tell on yourself with your preoccupation with blog hits. Since this is a game in which you count trivialities such as blog hits, by all means continue to amuse yourself.
While you're counting blog hits, I'm counting AA lives that have been enhanced (and God willing, indirectly saved).
Just stick with your games. And stop trying to block AA women from saving their own lives.
Khadija,
I followed the discussions that took place at WAOD and I noticed a pattern. Normally when people disagree they make their statements about why they disagree and move on. But this person seemed HELL BENT on subverting the efforts of the blog hostess, as well as those efforts of the commenters who didn't agree with her. She also tried to make it seem like everyone was being unfair for not agreeing with her and seeing her POV.
Also, as others have pointed out in the comments section, she has divested whether she believes it or not. She and her family emigrated from the Caribbean as a child AND AS AN ADULT SHE NEVER MOVED BACK! Duh, that's divestment. Also, she lives in Seattle, Wa., a safe city. I don't think there are many blacks there. So if it's ok for you to divest, why should we stay behind and die?
Hello there, Tasha!
You said, "I followed the discussions that took place at WAOD and I noticed a pattern. Normally when people disagree they make their statements about why they disagree and move on. But this person seemed HELL BENT on subverting the efforts of the blog hostess, as well as those efforts of the commenters who didn't agree with her. She also tried to make it seem like everyone was being unfair for not agreeing with her and seeing her POV."Oh yeah, she did a lot of obfuscation. And a lot of loud posturing as if her "Y'all AA women should stay and die...err, 'fight'" position was the only pro-BW position.
It was outrageous.
But what concerned me was that there might have been audience members who were confused by all of her convoluted double talk. All of this just emphasizes how careful we must be in screening the people who claim to have our interests at heart.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"But what concerned me was that there might have been audience members who were confused by all of her convoluted double talk. All of this just emphasizes how careful we must be in screening the people who claim to have our interests at heart."
This is what annoyed me the most. There are alot of folks who are alreday confused, and seeing that exchange could have only confused them more. She had the choice of doing the right thing and waiting for the moment the blog owner had specified for the type of discussion that she wanted to have. So instead of it being a discussion about different ways in which people define 'divesting' and 'the ark', it turned into her(along with her cronies) having a rant about how and why Black women shouldn't divest. That was NEVER the point of the post, and she completely ignored this fct, despite the fact that the blog owner implicitly stated her intentions for the post.
Frankly, if one isn't interested in getting on the ark, thy should move their behinds out of the way and stop blocking other people's escape route. As for this Seattle Slim creature, she is already on her own ark, but is trying to hold the door closed to others doing the same!
LOL Khadija,
You amuse me. You know why? You are able to fool all your little readers with your own version of double talk, self-righteousness... I mean, you are an ELOQUENT orator.
You know, let me make this easier for ya.
"I am LEGION."
For some reason, I cannot stop smiling at this. You said you would not engage in a cyber food fight (your words not mine) and here you are. How does that make you feel? You know, to be bested? Cheers!
P.S. I don't hold any ill will towards you. Honestly, I'm sure you are a decent human being. You should chill out a bit. It's too bad that you let negativity get a hold of you for this long. It's been WELL over a week since we disagreed. Breathe...
And if you cared so much about AAs, you could write about Carl Joseph Walker, (a black male so I don't know if you care about him or not). Everyone should blog about him and his tragic suicide. I'm honored at this blog post, but seriously, there are MORE important people.
Toodles! For real...lol
Seattle Slim,
I see that you're still trying to run scams from the Internet Ike Turner/Ikette Handbook. {yawn} Your latest comment is a repeated attempt at the Start a Flame War trick.
I will note that this particular ploy was also one of the FBI's favorite tricks to use to disrupt the meetings of AA civil rights organizations during COINTELPRO. It's also the last bit of non-responsive, non-substantive nonsense from you that I'm going to publish.
As with your original childish comment on WAOD, you're attempting to draw me into an emotional exchange and divert attention away from your lack of a credible, substantive response to any of the points that have been raised during these conversations. {another yawn}
If you have something of SUBSTANCE to say, then let's hear it. If not, then don't bother submitting any more diversionary, nonsensical comments.
Khadija
Some people have emotional issues, prior emotional issues which they carry along everywhere and 'Act out', at any and every given forum.
What struck me dumb was the communicated sentiment that black women have no rights over their own rescorces and bodies indeed 'how dare they speak about divesting'.
Well knock me over! Did i fall asleep for hundreds of years? Apparently some folks missed the memo that bw were freed from slavery at the same time black men were, that we have a right over our time, money, bodies, and emotions and no one directs where we should invest these.
This problematic claim and commandeering of black womens bodies and rescorces, needs to stop pronto!
This is what bw get from trying to help out a situation; she starts off trying to help, then the help is expected and then demanded and people forget that there is a point where they end and she begins!
I'm glad we got to see the trolls and diversionary tactics that took place at WAOD. We can definitely learn something from it and see the outsiders and those that may look like us try to blow our efforts apart.
It was a good idea to clarify our own definitions of divestment so that we are certain of what we're doing and why we're doing it. I'm glad you responded to this person because there was a post over at Racialicious that mentioned it and linked to her blog.
People do need clarification lest they get swept up in some nonsense and sent down a completely different path. I also find myself getting really mad to think of all the efforts AA women are making and squandering for people who don't care.
Some of us are doing it family and friends but we've got legions of us doing it for complete strangers and they will take and take until they get blood from a stone and collectively we are whittling ourselves away to nothing and have little to show for all that we've put out. It's modern day slavery all over again but nobody's forcing us to do all of this labor.
Khadija,
I realize this is your blog and your domain but Slim appears to be adding nothing to the conversation but cattiness and immaturity. I teach teenage girls and I see no difference between her posture and theirs. At this point, she's doing nothing but disrupting things here...like the unruly student who needs to be thrown out of class.
I have noticed that African Americans (that is those who willingly came off the boat from a modern African nation) have a lack of understanding of the nuances of being black in America. It must be lovely were everyone looks like you but there are different tribes of people. The concept of discrimination based on skin color, I think is a difficult one for them to grasp. The concept of institutional racism and white privilege must be difficult for them to grasp.
I've come late to the conversation and I walk away baffled as to why taking steps for self-preservation is seen in a negative light. Is this not the natural instinct in all creatures? Black Americans, unlike their African counterparts, so not have a country to flee back to when the times are tough.
Great discussion Khadijah. The whole concept of Black women 'saving themselves and their children' is wonderful. The other person who attemptd to 'knock' your suggestion, clearly does not understand, nor cares to understand what is important to a community not their own. It was/is frightening to see the level of condescension and blatant contempt this person displayed. wow, but not surprising as it is obviously learned from that of whites and their acrimonious 'understanding' and dealings with the African American community. Par for the course.
It was quite evident in this persons tone and 'rebuttal' that contempt was the motivating force behind their umm, 'interest'. yikes.
Their 'contempt', masquerading as concern, reminds me of this white female I took a class with many years ago. I noticed she always had something to say about black womens' hair, weight, educational status etc, in this sociology class. I then noticed that she was always reading 'Essence' magazine. I also notice she had a subscription to 'Essence', which is of course good for 'Essence'. When I asked her what was her interest in a magazine that catered to black women (aware of her disdain for black women), she responded, "Oh, I like to know what y'all are up to", "I want to see what you all are doing". No big deal, but I think I would have preferred her to say, she was reading because she liked the fashions, the nutrition tips, the vacation suggestions etc. But no, I like to know what y'all are up to; which translated for me, I want to be able to criticize the black female community, and this little magazine will give me that opening. This white woman's comment remind me of the person who attemptd to disrupt your initializing solutions for African American women. Same poison, different distributor.
Hello there, Halima!
You said, "Some people have emotional issues, prior emotional issues which they carry along everywhere and 'Act out', at any and every given forum."Yep. That's been on display.
You said, "What struck me dumb was the communicated sentiment that black women have no rights over their own rescorces and bodies indeed 'how dare they speak about divesting'.
Well knock me over! Did i fall asleep for hundreds of years? Apparently some folks missed the memo that bw were freed from slavery at the same time black men were, that we have a right over our time, money, bodies, and emotions and no one directs where we should invest these."Isn't that incredible? What I find even more bizarre is that these people are saying that this type of demonic entrapment (to use Rev. Lisa's phrase) where OTHERS commandeer the use of our time, money, bodies and emotions represents liberation for BW!
You said, "This problematic claim and commandeering of black womens bodies and rescorces, needs to stop pronto!"This commandeering/hijacking is definitely on its way out. That's why the naysayers are so hysterical. They can see that the divestment meme is spreading.
You said, "This is what bw get from trying to help out a situation; she starts off trying to help, then the help is expected and then demanded and people forget that there is a point where they end and she begins!"Yes, it's a perfect example of the phrase "you give an inch, and then people will TAKE a mile."
_____________________
Hello there, Faith!
You said, "I'm glad we got to see the trolls and diversionary tactics that took place at WAOD. We can definitely learn something from it and see the outsiders and those that may look like us try to blow our efforts apart.
It was a good idea to clarify our own definitions of divestment so that we are certain of what we're doing and why we're doing it. I'm glad you responded to this person because there was a post over at Racialicious that mentioned it and linked to her blog."Yes, I'm happy that Gina took a moment to pause and ask for clarifications what divestment and the ark are about. That was wise of her.
After some prayer, I decided to "out" this hypocrite. I wasn't aware of her blog post until someone sent me the link; and I wasn't aware of the Racialicious reference until you mentioned it just now.
It occurred to me that this individual would not be content with her tantrum over at WAOD. And that she would most likely continue to block AA women's escape routes during other conversations in other forums. As many people as possible need to know this saboteur's backstory so they can put her comments in their proper perspective.
*Note to Everybody* If you catch Ms. Slim adding "a cup of deception" and "a teaspoon of poison" to future divestment discussions, please feel free to send in a comment that links to this particular conversation. So other audience members can know exactly who it is that they're talking to.You said, "Some of us are doing it family and friends but we've got legions of us doing it for complete strangers and they will take and take until they get blood from a stone and collectively we are whittling ourselves away to nothing and have little to show for all that we've put out. It's modern day slavery all over again but nobody's forcing us to do all of this labor."This is why I get as loud and strident as the naysayers when they demand that AA women continue participating in suicide-martyrdom missions.
_______________
Hello there, Lormarie!
You said, "I realize this is your blog and your domain but Slim appears to be adding nothing to the conversation but cattiness and immaturity. I teach teenage girls and I see no difference between her posture and theirs. At this point, she's doing nothing but disrupting things here...like the unruly student who needs to be thrown out of class."I appreciate your concern. Not to worry; I WON'T publish any more nonsense from Ms. Slim. If she has something of substance to say, then I'll put it through; but no more nonsense. I let her previous comments through because I want people to see what this individual is really all about.
__________________
Hello there, Malacyne!
You said, "The concept of discrimination based on skin color, I think is a difficult one for them to grasp. The concept of institutional racism and white privilege must be difficult for them to grasp."Oh, those Black immigrants who are clueless temporarily get a clue when some White cop sodomizes one of them with a plunger (Abner Louima) or kills one of them in a hail of bullets (Ahmadou Diallo). Then they come crying to AA "scream and fall-out"...err, civil rights organizations for help. And then they go back to being clueless after the AA organization screams and falls out to get justice for their grievance.
You said "I've come late to the conversation and I walk away baffled as to why taking steps for self-preservation is seen in a negative light."The only people who see our self-preservation in a negative light are those who want to continue harnessing US as a resource for THEIR interests.______________________
Everybody: I'm going to close the comments on this particular discussion in a couple of days. I'm irritated to have to deal with this sort of negativity. But it's crucial that we deal with these toxic saboteurs as they make themselves known to us.
Anyway, I look forward to getting back to discussing strategies to achieve our collective aspirations! It's almost time for our regularly scheduled Wildest Dreams Check-in! LOL!Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Anonymous!
You said, "It was quite evident in this persons tone and 'rebuttal' that contempt was the motivating force behind their umm, 'interest'. yikes....Their 'contempt', masquerading as concern, reminds me of this white female I took a class with many years ago."Yep. At least most of us can see this coming in reference to White outsiders. The problem is when similar hatred masked as unity is coming from somebody who looks like us. Again, AA women need to screen and vet EVERYBODY!
_____________________
Note to Audience: Please know that y'all have the trolls in a panicked uproar with all this freedom talk! LOL!
Some of them are frantically submitting comments that I'm rejecting. {gales of laughter}Peace, blessings and solidarity.
"The only people who see our self-preservation in a negative light are those who want to continue harnessing US as a resource for THEIR interests."
This is so true. Last night, I was thinking about this particular poster(Ms. Slim), in regards to this, and I've been racking my brain as to how she benefits. It occurred to me that alot of the maladies that one sees in the black community in America are present in Black communtites in other parts of the world. She is trying to convince everyone else that things are all well and good in her home country. DBR men exists outside of America! Bascally, let me tell you what her deal is. She has seen this same damage and Negroism wherever it is that she originates from. In America, she had the opportunity of living in a locality that was free of alot of the things she experienced back home, and afforded her several opportunities. She thinks that if others(i.e. other Black women) also decide to flee their own dungeon, it might encroach on her own space(you know, how some negroes like being the only 'Negro in the village). And in her case, who makes up the majority of the Black women who will flee into the ark she got on? African American women. Hence, she wants to keep them out of the ark she is enjoying being in.
*For those who might e confused, I'd advise you to take a good look at Khdijas posts in Ike Turners ad Ikettes. What happened here(and on WAOD) is a perfect illustration.*
__________________________
"The problem is when similar hatred masked as unity is coming from somebody who looks like us. Again, AA women need to screen and vet EVERYBODY!"
Guys, seriously, when trying to escape, who do you think is going to put up the most hindrance? It ain't white folks! Most usually assume it would only be the DBR, LV, NV BM, and equally damaged BW. But there are going to be alot in your midst who will sing about freedom, but once they've gotten theirs, freedom is no longer a good thing. The fact that someone calls you 'sister' doesn't mean she is one!
_____________________
"Note to Audience: Please know that y'all have the trolls in a panicked uproar with all this freedom talk! LOL!
Some of them are frantically submitting comments that I'm rejecting. {gales of laughter}Peace, blessings and solidarity."
I wish I was you right now. I can just imagine the craziness that you are being sent!
Khadija said:
I WON'T publish any more nonsense from Ms. Slim. If she has something of substance to say, then I'll put it through; but no more nonsense. I let her previous comments through because I want people to see what this individual is really all about.-------------------------------
This is what's so hilarious about trolls and Internet Ike Turners and Ikettes: You don't even have to DO anything. They will show you their true selves without ANY provocation. You opened the door and she walked right through it and fell right into standard Ikette behavior. And with one sentence ("Thanks for the hits"), she lost whatever smidgen of credibility she may have had.
How dreadful.
@ Reverend Lisa, I've seen you write before about outsiders who feel entitled to intrude on your blog and other spaces where black women dwell. Some people don't like how strict some BWE bloggers are about their comments, but I CERTAINLY do. The internets is as big as outer space. I will never understand why people will bang their heads against the wall trying to come in your, Khadija, and other bloggers spaces to talk their mess. ALLL the black women hating spaces there are on the internet, but they wanna come up in your house and argue with YOU and get outraged when you lock the door and leave them outside.
My undergraduate university had several spaces on campus that were for LGBT folks, women, people of color, etc. and they were SERIOUS about enforcing boundaries and not letting just anybody up in these safe spaces. More and more, I'm understanding how necessary that is.
Thank you.
Wow! I was reading all the drama unfolding, sparked by Gina’s post on the parallels between Tyler Perry’s films and Pol Pot. The discourse just revealed what was already about to boil over-this cultural war between blacks, not only AAs vs. AAs, but non-AAs blacks vs. AAs. Whew!
As a black woman born in the United States to Caribbean born parents, I can tell you I have been a witness to this ugly dynamic all my life. My brother and I were teased by our relatives for being American. They constantly bitched about the United States and black Americans in particular. As a child I thought, why don’t you go back home if you don’t like it so much? Of course I never dared voice my opinion. I would have been slapped into the next century.
I can say I am tired of some foreign born blacks thinking their sh*it doesn’t stink. I am tired of whites telling me how AAs have a bad attitude and how much more comfortable they feel around foreign blacks. They will also do this to AAs who are educated and act with decorum-the honorary white person card gets bestowed. Because blacks in America are so symbolized by the behavior of the black underclass, we are looked at as ‘positive’ anomalies by outsiders.
In regards to Seattle Slim, her posts at WAOD were starting to give me a headache. What I was reading was someone who might be imposing her own issues and self-guilt about divesting, or maybe it’s just plain selfishness. There are certain types of black women who have found the road to Living Well, and don’t want other black women to find that road for themselves. I find this mentality puzzling. I can only guess that seeing bw sacrificing themselves makes them sleep better at night because they’re the minority in seeking quality alternatives. It eases their guilt since they didn’t follow the general script of being a black female martyr. If a considerable amount of bw follow their example, it pricks their conscious over the decision they made. Well, it’s their own cross to bear, no one else’s. I’m tired of people trying to impose their own personal dysfunction on others.
Hey there Khadija!
You are showing ALL of the online activists how to handle the deception, the distortion, the dishonesty and the disguises of opponents of our self-preservation!
Here's a classic example of what we can expect to see: http://nepthys-12.livejournal.com/25834.html
There has NEVER BEEN an anti-black man sentiment attached to the four-part series that I have prepared on black divestment.
What a crock!I have never even used the position at my blog that "black men are ______" or even that "white men are _____".
In fact, I am the one who stated that we should not make BLANKET statements and assumptions about any group, including black women.
You can be assured that many who are commenting at various blogs DID NOT even read the entire divestment series at my blog and they aren't reading the entire series here either!
There are three positions that we will continue to hear by opponents of divestment:
Argument #1 - Things aren't THAT bad or THAT dangerous for black women and black girls in all black constructs. Black women need to be part of fixing the community and not abdicating.
Pleeeease.
Black male abdication in the black community is clearly evident....their willful removal of their resources and moral leadership is evident in every aspect of black life in this country.
No one can dispute this.
So instead, they try to disparage those who make that observation quite clear.
2 - Black women who pursue their advancement and elevation by establishing absolutes are "bitter" and "hateful" and "anti-black community".
The white slave owner attempting to declare that the black slave who ran away was a "bad" and "ungrateful" and "untrustworthy" slave that all should avoid being like!
We have black male aggressors online unleashing this slave owner tactic.
3 - Black women have to demonstrate black unity, black love and black solidarity WHETHER OR NOT they are recipients of it.
This argument presents nothing more demands for our subjugation.
4 - Black women in America need to look at [insert another location where the dynamics are NOT THE SAME at all] before divesting!
Please. We are intelligent enough to see through the trickery. Those who are presenting "examples" that have NOTHING to do with the state of affairs for black women in all black constructs here in our own nation.
All online activists need to decide whether you will permit trolls to have space in your comment section just to prove to your audience that you allow opposing views. This has become problematic at many blogs. I notice there are blog hosts who allow themselves to be "dared" and "goaded" into posting trash comments whenever someone says "you won't let this comment through since you don't allow opposing views". They take the bait and allow the comment to appear.
My blog forum is NOT a town hall meeting where anyone and everyone can step to the mic and blurt whatever they choose.
I want to mention this to all blog hosts... and I do know that everyone is a free agent and each blog host can set her own policies. I have seen some pettiness in some forums that target black women and are HOSTED by black women... so understand the consequences of giving pettiness and stupidity a spotlight. If you permit those who are disruptive (whether female bloggers OR male bloggers), you will endanger ALL black women activists online. You will also allow your own commenters to be verbally demeaned and assaulted. THAT is not useful for black women.
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
Khadijah, I just want to say that I really admire you and love this blog. Your samurai-style approach to helping black women is informative (and oftentimes comical) and much needed in these days and times.
Don't let the mau-mauers throw salt at you. All these folks talking about "hope" and "restoring the community" and "working with black men to help black boys" are so deluded. They just want to keep the status quo so THEY can feel better about their lives. I have found that some of the folks most resistant to divestment are those who "got it going on" and are "helping out" in the community. Meaning - they LIKE the fact that most blacks are part of the underclass because it makes them FEEL better and LOOK better.
This is the REAL motive behind a lot of these folks. If AA women were to improve their circumstances thusly improving their financial, physical and emotional well-being - those "got it going on" folks won't look so good anymore!! There is a definite group of black-skinned folks in America (some foreign, some not) who THRIVE on being better than everybody else. They GUISE it as concern but really they just want to sit in their ivory towers and tell OTHER folks what they can do to help. Then they can sit back and say that it is OUR fault that things are bad because WE are not helping the way THEY said we should.
How many educated black folks talk about "volunteering" and "mentoring" and how many of them actually do it on the regular? How many black MEN talk about the need for strong male leadership in the black community while they go bone Becky or Rosa and leave Laquita with a baby?
C'mon! We have been talking the same mess for damn near 50 years! All this talk talk talk and no action except on behalf of some black male criminal who gets shot by the cops. I am so sick of this hypocritical nonsense.
So if folks want to drag AA women back into the gutter for their "shifts" to continue working on behalf of everyone else, they are going to catch HEAT because of it.
AA women need to stop giving and start TAKING and ALLOCATING for themselves and their children.
Please don't stop your message. Your blog is a daily read for me because you remove the veil often. If folks don't like it and they want to call you "evil" or say that you are filled with anger, they can kick their sad little rocks to another blog then! Black female empowerment bloggers (and their fans!) are not ANGRY, most of us live very happy, well-adjusted lives. We are wives, mothers, friends, children, etc. We LIKE happiness which is why it is so disheartening to see so many black women NOT able to live in happiness.
Keep doing what you do. I know you will, I just wanted to be another person cheering you on!
I also just realized this goes back to being prepared for the hateration!! We have to expect it to come and recognize it for what it is....
The good thing is this clearly shows why divesting and finding an ark is moving the right direction and how this will further our free agency.
I wanted to thank Roslyn for all the web sites she suggested also.
I still felt a great deal of confusion over this situation, but after sleeping on it (lol) I reached a conclusion: There is a huge difference in priorties between people like Seattle Slim and Black Women empowerment bloggers that is not always readily apparent. Here is the message I posted at her blog verbatim:
"Hi Seattle Slim,
I wanted to make this comment here on your blog before I post it anywhere else. After reading through most of your blog posts, it's apparent that you are dedicated to the upliftment of the Black “community.” That is to be applauded. However, I do not think you are dedicated to the upliftment of Black women. You see, there are times when the needs of the Black community and the needs of Black women are at odds. Currently, the African-American community is severely neglecting the needs of African-American women. For someone who is primarily concerned with the needs of the group, I can understand the concern that Black women “divesting” from Black communities brings about. No Black women=No Black community.
To me, this is where the difference of opinion comes in between you and Black female empowerment bloggers. You simply have two different priorities-group vs. individual needs. As far as I am concerned, Black women come first. This is because 1) I am a Black woman 2) Black women uphold the community 3) Black women are the “keepers of the culture” that gets passed onto Black children. I feel it is every woman's responsibility to look out for herself and her children. She can help others who are open to her help at her own discretion. She cannot and should not help those who willingly choose to stay behind in a burning building. If they attempt to block her path, she should remove them “by any means necessary.”
I believe a positive change can come to the African-American community. However, this is only possible if African-American men are equally invested in this outcome. It's plain to see, they are not. This is why I encourage Black women to put their needs first, and let the chips fall where they may. Nature abhors a vacuum, so perhaps those who have been absent from the community will embrace the opportunity to tend to that which they have neglected for so long."
Initially, I was blinded by the fact that this woman really does want what's best for the Black community. So do I. BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF BLACK WOMEN. That is the major (irreconcilable) difference.
*Audience Note* You may want to check out Ms. Slim's latest post entitled "Why Divestiture (Divesting/Disinvesting) Hurts Black Women and Children" dated today (4/16/09). This was brought to my attention this afternoon.
It's...interesting...to see Ms. Slim try to REPOSITION both herself and her posture towards AA women's physical survival.
(1) Compare the difference between her latest statements regarding BW living in dangerous Black residential areas with her Comment #46 on the WAOD post "A Black Culture War" (that I linked to in this post).
(2) Compare her latest statements regarding her citizenship, upbringing and childhood with her Comment #62 on the WAOD post "A Black Culture War."
Can you all see the effect of being held accountable for one's statements? We are training people how to treat us and our concerns by how we respond to their trespasses. Ms. Slim showed her true sentiments with her first post that I linked to. Now she's apparently felt the need to try to clean that up. It just goes to show that holding people accountable is a very good thing!____________________
Hello there, JaliliMaster!
You said, "In America, she had the opportunity of living in a locality that was free of alot of the things she experienced back home, and afforded her several opportunities. She thinks that if others(i.e. other Black women) also decide to flee their own dungeon, it might encroach on her own space(you know, how some negroes like being the only 'Negro in the village). And in her case, who makes up the majority of the Black women who will flee into the ark she got on? African American women. Hence, she wants to keep them out of the ark she is enjoying being in."DING! DING! DING! We have a winner here! What you've described is part of it. Another ingredient is what Paulo Freire called "false charity." From Chapter 1 of his book The Pedagogy of the Oppressed:
"In order to have the continued opportunity to express their 'generosity,' the oppressors must perpetuate injustice as well. An unjust social order is the permanent fount of this 'generosity' which is nourished by death, despair, and poverty.
That is why the dispensers of false generosity become desperate at the slightest threat to its source. True generosity consists precisely in fighting to destroy the causes which nourish false charity.Where will her opportunities to play-act "fighting the good fight" come from if more AA women make it onto an ark?
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Hello there, Enlightened!
You said, "This is what's so hilarious about trolls and Internet Ike Turners and Ikettes: You don't even have to DO anything. They will show you their true selves without ANY provocation. You opened the door and she walked right through it and fell right into standard Ikette behavior. And with one sentence ("Thanks for the hits"), she lost whatever smidgen of credibility she may have had.
How dreadful."Well, Ms. Slim is currently busy trying to reposition herself into sounding more reasonable and responsible. I'm happy that she "showed out" here; it can serve as a warning to others.
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Hello there, Jazine!
Yes, there are many different undercurrents to these various dynamics. I prefer to have things out in the open so everybody can see what's up.
This dynamic isn't only along ethnic lines. It plays out just about everywhere. I'm amazed and disgusted to see how many of my colleagues are DEEPLY invested in being "bosses" over the secretaries at work. It saddens me that so many of the secretaries are shocked to discover that I'm not interested in "bossing" them. I just want the work I delegate done properly. No more and no less.
It's a normal, HUMAN wish to NOT want to be at the very bottom of any pecking order. And it takes an unusual, principled person not to buy/feed into that mess.
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Hello there, Lisa!
You said, "There are three positions that we will continue to hear by opponents of divestment:
Argument #1 - Things aren't THAT bad or THAT dangerous for black women and black girls in all black constructs. Black women need to be part of fixing the community and not abdicating.
Pleeeease.
Black male abdication in the black community is clearly evident....their willful removal of their resources and moral leadership is evident in every aspect of black life in this country.
No one can dispute this.
So instead, they try to disparage those who make that observation quite clear.
2 - Black women who pursue their advancement and elevation by establishing absolutes are "bitter" and "hateful" and "anti-black community".
The white slave owner attempting to declare that the black slave who ran away was a "bad" and "ungrateful" and "untrustworthy" slave that all should avoid being like!
We have black male aggressors online unleashing this slave owner tactic.
3 - Black women have to demonstrate black unity, black love and black solidarity WHETHER OR NOT they are recipients of it.
This argument presents nothing more demands for our subjugation.
4 - Black women in America need to look at [insert another location where the dynamics are NOT THE SAME at all] before divesting!
Please. We are intelligent enough to see through the trickery. Those who are presenting "examples" that have NOTHING to do with the state of affairs for black women in all black constructs here in our own nation."BREAK IT DOWN! {raised black glove}
These people are modern-day slave catchers! Slave catchers who aren't used to getting stern responses to their lies and distortions. That day is OVER.
And your point about blog hosts bending over backwards to appearing "fair" to opponents is an important one. Each blog host needs to clearly decide what their blog's mission is about. I don't care about being OR looking "fair" to the Klan (for example the Princeton racists we opposed last year). Or "fair" to Internet Ike Turners/Ikettes. Or "fair" to slave catchers.
The mission up in here is about JUSTICE and FREEDOM for AA women and girls. I support people, whoever they may be, who support this mission. Period.On various blogs, including here, I have periodically mentioned and called for supporting certain Black MEN such as a blogger named Black SeaGoat and Darius Miller. But only because these particular BM have shown themselves to be of GREAT value to BW and Black children; and they are therefore WORTHY of my support and admiration.
I don't support just anybody. And I'm NOT worried about "fairness" or "justice" for just anybody. I have priorities based on what people are doing/have done for BW and girls.
The particular BM that I mention and support have singlehandedly stepped into the breach to protect BW and children. Mr. Miller is STILL in a coma because he protected some Black women. I don't want to hear any mewling about Oscar Grant while Mr. Miller is still in a coma. There's no indication that Oscar Grant was of any value whatsoever to Black women and children. Including his own child.
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Hello there, Hollywood Blackout!
Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I truly appreciate it.
You said, "I have found that some of the folks most resistant to divestment are those who "got it going on" and are "helping out" in the community. Meaning - they LIKE the fact that most blacks are part of the underclass because it makes them FEEL better and LOOK better.
This is the REAL motive behind a lot of these folks. If AA women were to improve their circumstances thusly improving their financial, physical and emotional well-being - those "got it going on" folks won't look so good anymore!!"Yep. This gets back to the "false charity" that Paulo Freire mentioned in his book.
You said, "C'mon! We have been talking the same mess for damn near 50 years! All this talk talk talk and no action except on behalf of some black male criminal who gets shot by the cops. I am so sick of this hypocritical nonsense."It amazes me to see folks advocate the same, FAILED strategies over and over again. And recycle the same, played out slogans. "Hope" is not a strategy. Especially when it's tied to doing the same things repeatedly while expecting a different result. This is one definition of insanity.
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Hello there, Faith!
You said, "I also just realized this goes back to being prepared for the hateration!! We have to expect it to come and recognize it for what it is....
The good thing is this clearly shows why divesting and finding an ark is moving the right direction and how this will further our free agency."YES!
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Hello there, Aisha!
You said, "You see, there are times when the needs of the Black community and the needs of Black women are at odds. Currently, the African-American community is severely neglecting the needs of African-American women."That's what this boils down to. Up to this point, AA women have martyred themselves on behalf of the so-called community. While AA men have been pursuing their own individual interests. NO MORE. Carrying the entire burden of the AA collective on our backs is literally killing AA women. It's long past time to lay those burdens down.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I started reading the art of war online. And one thing that stuck out at this moment is a line about evading/fleeing an enemy that is stronger than you. Black women & children (clearly) are no match for these predators. And also fight or flight is such a basic instinct. A lot of energy has been put into overiding bw's basic sense and instincts I see from reading these blogs. I was lucky enough not to be exposed to poisen all my life like so many other bw.
I don't even understand this whole "hug a thug" aka march/protest for another idiot criminal ideology I'm supposed to embrace?
I really commend all the empowerment bloggers, I hope to learn more and to contribute. I am one of those bw women "living well" and I want other bw to be happy too. -tbo
"The only way to get our boys on track is to make black men get on board and to come together to make a change."
Above quoted from SS's "thesis" on divesting (mentioned in your comment above)
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With that one statement only, any BW reading that should ask themselves if they really want to take advice from someone who wants you to do the impossible: "make" another individual, especially a man, do anything. Warm and fuzzy platitudes about "coming together" is pure fantasy in this particular context. Black women will continue to do ALL the heavy lifting and they, with their children will remain in the line of fire while other folks are off "feeling righteous" about their "good deeds."
Hello there, TBO!
You said, "I started reading the art of war online. And one thing that stuck out at this moment is a line about evading/fleeing an enemy that is stronger than you. Black women & children (clearly) are no match for these predators."Exactly! And not only are the predators stronger, but they are ENTRENCHED.
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Hello there, Miss Pinky!
You've zeroed in on the core flaw in her argument. I couldn't have said it any better.
The vast majority of Black men have already CONCLUSIVELY demonstrated over the past 3 decades that they REFUSE to assume any responsibility whatsoever for fixing the so-called community. The vast majority of BM have not, and will not, do any heavy lifting to fix the community.Any purported salvation strategy that depends on BM's efforts and cooperation will NOT work for the above reasons. To believe otherwise is wishful thinking.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I'm not surprised. Change is a very scary thing. Many people will cling to even the most paltry thing in a desperate bid to avoid change. She's saying the same nonsense they've been spewing at us for generations. Fortunately, I'm old enough to know better, and it would be wrong of me to mislead younger women and girls and hold out false hope to them.
I think it's crucial that those of us who know better to share that knowledge with others. Not in any 'casting your pearls before swine' way. I'm much too impatient to bother with such tomfoolery. But I understand that many of our young women and girls haven't been taught any better and they're crying out for leadership.
I am so glad that I came to these realizations long enough ago that I can now reach out and help others in some small way. For most of my life I thought I was crazy because my outlook was so very different than those around me. I guess that's why I understand the fear that keeps people frozen in place. Are the Slims of the world frozen, or are they diabolical? Not sure, but either way it really makes no difference. The result is the same. When you see Sodom and Gomorrah burning your best response is to run as though the hounds of hell are behind you, lest you too be consumed. I left when I was barely seventeen years old. And yes, it was scary as hell, but not nearly as frightening as what I was leaving behind. Just remember that there's nothing there for you and your children but death and death and death, and keep it moving.
This notion of black women somehow 'making' grown men do anything is something that has been at us since forever. Easy to see why it's done. It's more apologia for black men. Why aren't they holding up their end of the community? Because black women aren't making them do it. Pah! A woman doesn't have to make a man do anything. He does the right thing because to do otherwise makes him less than a man.
As for this notion that we are somehow leaving our children behind, that's yet another McGuffin they like to throw at us. I have a son. A son that I love dearly, like most mothers love their children. I loved him before he was even conceived and because I did I vetted his potential father in a way usually reserved for CIA agents. I don't have to 'make' his father do a bloody darned thing. He does the right thing because he's a man and therefore he does manly things. I don't want a man who I have to force into taking care of his responsibilities. That's the primary reason I divested in the first place.
I thought I should bring it to the readers' attention that Seattle Slim has gone back to be rather abrasive and engaging in obstructionism again.
By the way she has a Twitter account so I'll have to keep an eye on her over there. She took Hollywood Blackout's comment here and centered a post around it.
This is what she wrote on Twitter as a post follow-up: "You know as a volunteer and activist, it sucks to deal with people who think so ill of helping people, but FUCK 'EM! LOL Sucks 2 b them! "
http://happynappyhead.blogspot.com/2009/04/misguided-quote-of-weak-reader-on.html
I honestly don't get it.....
I guess its easy being a revolutionary sitting in Seattle. Why don't she move to Baltimore, New Orleans or Newark then start preaching.
Hello there, Roslyn!
You said, "I'm not surprised. Change is a very scary thing. Many people will cling to even the most paltry thing in a desperate bid to avoid change. She's saying the same nonsense they've been spewing at us for generations."Actually, I understand this phenomenon. I remember how disoriented I felt after the Dunbar Village Atrocity & Aftermath snapped me out of my prior Black Nationalist trance. It was extremely frightening to face the reality that "the Black community" was dead and GONE.
I grew up in a happy, safe, ALL-Black, middle class neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. The idea that the old-school, "Big Mama's house"-atmosphere that I was blessed to grow up in was gone forever was devastating.
It's painful, but if AA women want to survive (much less thrive) we must STOP keeping false hopes alive, and face harsh reality.
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Hello there, Faith!
Thanks for the heads-up.
{heavy sarcasm} Well, isn't that grand. {sarcasm off}
On a serious note, Rev. Lisa did an excellent earlier post about the necessity of emotional discipline. It's a must-read.
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Hello there, Anonymous!
Washington, DC---the potential HIV/AIDS capital of the United States---is another place that's in need of some more community-minded activists.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
I have been reading and following both this blog (and the WAOD blog) for quite some time now. This is my first time commenting on the issue of divestiture because, as a Black but non-African American woman, I fully respect and support Khadija’s view that this blog emphasizes solutions specifically for African-American women and also that because someone looks like you they are not necessarily your ally. But I do hope the following comments that I make as a non-African-American female reflect the genuine, good faith in which they are intended.
I respect AA women who feel it necessary to divest as a form of survival or otherwise, and I am not even sure why it has to be seen a form of abandonment or betrayal. If your Black ancestors built the entire country you live in, you have every right to choose to live in ANY part of that country you see fit and to reap its full benefits. No one has the right to tell you otherwise. And even if you choose to divest outside of the US and live in, say, Europe – that is not abandonment either because everyone knows that most of Europe and the Western world was built on and became rich from slavery as well.
Also, divestiture is in a way a form of leading by example because positive tends to attract positive.
Finally, I think it is important for Black, non-African American women like myself to understand that the number one rule of being a respectful, truly helpful ally to African-American women (or to anyone) is to be quiet and listen first. Our experiences as black women are not always going to be the same (although there are similarities).
I don’t believe the differences between us need be insurmountable, but as opportunities to learn and benefit.
If AA women choose to divest they will need access to viable opportunities within the global community. Some AA women on this blog have expressed an interest in writing. Some may find it hard to find a US publisher willing to take on decent, quality literature from black women. Maybe you only encounter publishers willing to publish works with negative portrayals of black characters. If you are interested in self-publishing - consider getting your books published in Dubai – it is surprisingly affordable and it can all be done online. And no, I am not from Dubai – so no ulterior motives from me here. I am just trying to say that as non-AA’s I think we should only comment IF and WHEN the comments we are offering are in the form of a genuine, concrete solution such as the one I mentioned above or a suggestion to bring about career or social advancement for African-American women’s lives. I am sorry for the lengthy post, but I hope I was able to contribute positively to the discussion.
Anonymous, "If AA women choose to divest they will need access to viable opportunities within the global community. Some AA women on this blog have expressed an interest in writing. Some may find it hard to find a US publisher willing to take on decent, quality literature from black women. Maybe you only encounter publishers willing to publish works with negative portrayals of black characters. If you are interested in self-publishing - consider getting your books published in Dubai – it is surprisingly affordable and it can all be done online. And no, I am not from Dubai – so no ulterior motives from me here. I am just trying to say that as non-AA’s I think we should only comment IF and WHEN the comments we are offering are in the form of a genuine, concrete solution such as the one I mentioned above or a suggestion to bring about career or social advancement for African-American women’s lives. I am sorry for the lengthy post, but I hope I was able to contribute positively to the discussion.
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This is a good. I think that 'cyber-fighting' with the seattle person can move on, as we in 'this' community have determined that divestiture is necessry for our survivl. At this point, there should be strategy and planning for divestiture. As I see it, all of the African American women who are posting here, are of 'one mind', not 'group-think', but, are women who have determined that they should, and can save themselves. I am interested in talking about solutions and strategy. It wont be 'easy'; what resources are out there for women working 'beneath' a certain pay grade who want/need to divest? Where/how do you divest, specifically? While there is talk about 'divesting', what communication will there be to signal this change to family and friends who stay, or for whatever reason cannot leave, and are left behind. While I do'nt agree with the central thesis statement of the seattle person, we must consider what will be left behind, if as stated that the African American woman is the 'back-bone'; what will be the consequence of that divestiture? Will those 'left-behind' attempt to follow, and create additional problems, because I thiink it is fair to say that problematic folk are not going to, in many cases 'allow' many of us to just up and leave. Think about domestic abuse situations where the abuser, follows his victim(s).
Also, if as noted, that African American women are the backbone of the 'black community', what WILL happen to what is left behind, ie. the elderly, the physically challenged, innocent children etc. I would like to suggest those issues for discussion. Or should we not care? What will be the repurcussions of 'our' leaving? If in fact this 'divestiture' strategy catches on, society as we know it, WILL CHANGE. I support it, but I want to be ready for both the successes and the 'fall-out'.
Hello there, Anonymous!
First of all, please know that you are WELCOME here. It's interesting. The people who are most concerned about offending usually have no reason to be concerned! LOL! The fact that someone is sensitive to that angle usually prevents that person from doing/saying something rude.
You said, "I respect AA women who feel it necessary to divest as a form of survival or otherwise, and I am not even sure why it has to be seen a form of abandonment or betrayal. If your Black ancestors built the entire country you live in, you have every right to choose to live in ANY part of that country you see fit and to reap its full benefits. No one has the right to tell you otherwise."Exactly!
You said, "Finally, I think it is important for Black, non-African American women like myself to understand that the number one rule of being a respectful, truly helpful ally to African-American women (or to anyone) is to be quiet and listen first."Yes, this is common courtesy. I was offended by the high-handed tone of the Ms. Slim and the other Caribbean Negroes commenting on the link I posted. On the one hand, these Caribbean Negro commenters claim to have answers for African-Americans' problems. You see, their native collectives don't have problems because they are oh-so-united and together, unlike AAs.
On the other hand, they sounded like arrogant White "missionaries" who have come among the "darky savages" to save them from themselves.
The other complication with this is that there are certain aspects to AA cultural shifts that these people don't know. They don't have the personal, historical memory to assess certain things because they only recently landed among AAs. They don't have GENERATIONS of familiarity with AAs' circumstances. They don't have any personal, historical, FAMILY memory of how certain things came to be.
How can they prescribe medication when they are not really familiar with the patients? For example, one Caribbean-origin anti-divestment BM talks about Harriet Tubman in his blog post against divestment.
He obviously does not understand what Ms. Tubman actually did. She led slaves in missions to RUN AWAY from slave plantations. She did not lead slaves into "stay and fight" gun battles with slaveholders. She did not lead her fellow AAs into "stay and fight" gun battles to take over the plantations.
The other thing that irked me about this Caribbean-origin individual presuming to lecture AAs while MIS-citing the example of Harriet Tubman is that Ms. Tubman is MY ancestor as an AA, NOT his! That's as crazy as me presuming to lecture a Nigerian Muslim about what they need to do while MIS-citing the historical example of THEIR ancestor Shehu Usman Dan Fodio!
It's too long for me to get into at length, but here's another example of what I mean by this. Non-AAs are often mystified by our current knee-jerk response of supporting Black criminals.
What non-AAs often don't understand (because they did not live through it) are the historical experiences that created these responses. Things like the Scottsboro boys, Emmett Till, other lynchings and Rosa Parks.
These things are stories in history books for non-AAs. By contrast, these events are part of the LIVING MEMORY of my older relatives. My paternal grandfather escaped a lynching because he looked White. That's why he ran away from the South. My friend's grandfather founded the Chicago church where Emmett Till's funeral was held. Emmett Till's funeral was a big deal, and a common, shared point of reference.
In terms of my living memory, the parents of most AAs in my age group (40s) made a POINT of showing us old pictures of what Emmett Till looked like in his open casket when we were around 11-12 years old. And, so did our teachers, for those of us who went to Black grammar schools/junior high schools. They did this so that we could truly understand what lynching meant. Almost every AA I know in my age group saw that horrible picture as a pre-teen or young teenager.
How this sort of thing relates to Ms. Slim's recommendations: Ms. Slim doesn't know this (because she's an outsider), but AAs' last, best hope for "coming together" was during the 1960s. This is the point at which masses of AAs were mouthing slogans about "Black is Beautiful," etc. We didn't completely buy into these slogans, but the cultural framework was still present to build on in terms of "coming together."
Since the 1960s, AAs have GONE BACKWARDS in terms of self-hatred and self-disrespect. We gone backwards by many DECADES. The worsening of the internal Black colorism situation is a perfect example of this.
AAs have always had the "paper-bag tests" in operation among ourselves. These tests have now escalated to being "manila-folder and Whiter" tests. And we have sunk so low as to OPENLY, PUBLICLY express Black self-hatred (see statements by Ne-Yo, Yung Berg, etc.).
And the self-hatred problems are compounded at this point because we have developed a totally dishonest discourse about what we're doing. Unlike previous decades, we currently won't admit that any of this is about Black self-hatred, we've created shiny, new terms for it.
You said, " Our experiences as black women are not always going to be the same (although there are similarities). I don’t believe the differences between us need be insurmountable, but as opportunities to learn and benefit."I agree. I've learned a lot over the years from talking to Black folks from other parts of the diaspora.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Hello there, Anonymous #2! [I have to have some way of distinguishing folks. LOL!]
You said, "This is a good. I think that 'cyber-fighting' with the seattle person can move on, as we in 'this' community have determined that divestiture is necessry for our survivl. At this point, there should be strategy and planning for divestiture. As I see it, all of the African American women who are posting here, are of 'one mind', not 'group-think', but, are women who have determined that they should, and can save themselves. I am interested in talking about solutions and strategy."I agree. That's why I'm going to close the comments to this thread later tonight. In terms of solutions, that's what we've already BEEN talking about here! LOL!
I've put up a new blog post that directs readers to the links to some earlier solution-intensive conversations. There's no "expiration date" on these conversations, so please feel free to jump in and add your input.As to the second part of your question about what happens to those left behind: Those left behind will continue along their current trajectory: They will become part of a PERMANENT underclass and they will die in the wilderness.
I can't focus on those who will be left behind right now. Too many of US who actually want to survive and thrive are in literal, physical danger living within Black residential areas.
It's similar to the reason why airlines instruct you to put on YOUR oxygen mask FIRST before helping anybody else with their mask. You can't help anybody else if YOU'RE starving, homeless, wounded or dead. So the first priority is to get as many of us who are willing to work to survive and thrive safely out of danger.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Just wow! @ this whole discussion. Wow! to say I am impressed is an understatement. and I'm proud, because you young women, are birthing a new beginning, the dawn of something amazing. I'm almost giddy with excitement! I especially appreciated the comparison with Harriet Tubman; you (very) young women are preparing to lead this generation of African American women, out of the wilderness. Go head lol! I eagerly look forward to this transformative process, with bated breath.
@ lormarie in reference to the wm calling bw "girls" I believe that some wm are simply trying to relate with bw.
After all we refer to each other as "girls" all the time.
I must admit that I used to wonder why a man and especially a wm would call me "girl" and then I finally realized that "some" wm are only trying to relate to me.
a.f.
@ lormarie
Yes, there are some immigrant women of African decent who do not wish to see AA women prosper. I know an African female who does not think Michelle O is good enough for the Prez. Whatever!
The Prez. chose her, Michelle, because she was the BEST Choice for him.
So flash forward a few weeks and now this African women wants to pretend she loves Michelle O.
IMO, this African woman is simply JEALOUS of Michelle.(She has no problem when I speak well of immigrant Africans.) Never mind all of Michelle's accomplishments. This African woman and her family are living very well her in America. I suppose some people are never happy.
a.f.
"A woman doesn't have to make a man do anything. He does the right thing because to do otherwise makes him less than a man.
As for this notion that we are somehow leaving our children behind, that's yet another McGuffin they like to throw at us. I have a son. A son that I love dearly, like most mothers love their children. I loved him before he was even conceived and because I did I vetted his potential father in a way usually reserved for CIA agents. I don't have to 'make' his father do a bloody darned thing. He does the right thing because he's a man and therefore he does manly things. I don't want a man who I have to force into taking care of his responsibilities. That's the primary reason I divested in the first place." --Roslyn
EXACTLY! MY sons have a good father because I decided to use the brain and commonsense that Allah gave me, to pick my husband. I don't have to MAKE him get a job, MAKE him go to work, MAKE him give money for bills, MAKE him read them a bedtime story, MAKE him play ball with them. (actually I wish he wouldn't play ball with them in the living room, but that's another story.)
As to the latest foolishness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWZZSD4irM
^^^Is the answer to all the foolishness, as has already been pointed out.
If masses of AA women snap out of unreciprocal thinking and start acting in their own best interests, that's more competition for everything, including the best quality, most desirable men.
There is soooo much going on in this thread, and I am sure no one wants to read yet another mini dissertation....so I am just going to focus on a "tiny" thing that caught my eye and which I believe affects me from time to time..
Someone said:
@ lormarie in reference to the wm calling bw "girls" I believe that some wm are simply trying to relate with bw.
.............
I said:
I would be VERY wary of any man who referred to me that way. There are a myriad of names to get my attention...but "girl" is not one of them, nor is the especially hated "girlfriend" (which like "girl," smacks of "gay" when used by a man who is supposedly straight.) In fact, I have a coworker who I see infrequently, and she makes it a point to call me "girlfriend." Now if I see her anytime soon I am going to have to address that, EVEN if I see that she refers to all women that way. It is just insulting quite frankly...only my real girlfriends have the luxury of calling me that...no BW should just accept being called by certain names because everyone else does it...at least that is my opinion....This thread is not about WP, but let me say that no one gets a PASS simply because they are trying to "relate." My goodness, we are human beings..just be normal. No need to employ special tricks or words.
As for the "revolutionary lady" in Seattle...hmmmmm..I can't really be bothered to read through someone else's rantings and ravings...if they don't catch me right away, I'm already on to the next comment, but I don't like the disrepectful air that she (seems to?) brings to another blog. As we say all along, there is room for expanded thought, but it must be done reasonably, and one should save ones most vitriolic diatribe for ones own blog. We have to remember we are in someone else's house here...or there (WAOD)
Anyway, it is easy to be a revolutionary (as someone else rightly pointed out) from one's own living room. It is easy to sprout and vent and carry on. What is not AS easy is to implement those actions. In any case however, before we can help someone else, we must first help ourselves.....Put your lifevest on yourself, DON'T just pull the tabs (or you will inflate the vest and float alongside the doomed vessel)...instead, swim like hell away from it and towards the shore.
Hello there, ForeverLoyal!
Yep. Insisting upon quality and reciprocity up front prevents many community-impacting problems from happening in the first place. Let's follow the sequence of events with these issues:
As Halima observed during another conversation, Black single motherhood is at the root of almost all of the problems within the former Black community. Whether the problem is crime, poverty, etc. If you prevent Black single motherhood by steering AA women toward healthy marriages, then you alleviate most of these problems.
At the root of most Black single motherhood (and/or illegitimacy) is the mass phenomenon of AA women settling for LOW or NO VALUE BM. The root of this settling is the "nothing but a BM" mindset, which leads to a scarcity of good dating/mating options. Since there are so few viable, eligle AA men, dating/mating within all-Black AA circles is a man's market to exploit.
There's also the harsh reality that since the majority of AA males are fatherless, we have a large population of AA males who DON'T know how to be husbands and full-time, on-scene fathers. This is because they've never seen this model of manhood up close and personal.
Does it really make any sense for a woman to hook up with a guy who needs "special ed" lessons in how to be a HUSBAND & FULL-TIME, ON-SCENE FATHER? Or is choosing a fatherless man increasing the odds of future divorce? Again, more harsh reality here.
Then on top of this we have the AA cultural shift of many AA males thinking that it's just fine and dandy to be an unmarried, parti-time, "only parenting on weekends and over the phone" baby-daddy. Meanwhile, men from other ethnic groups are raised to WANT to be HUSBANDS & FULL-TIME, ON-SCENE FATHERS.
But I digress...
At the root of the "nothing but a BM" mindset is the magical thinking of "If I'm loyal to BM, then they'll be loyal to me. And the Black family will return." Meanwhile, BM have never limited themselves (even under threat of lynching) to BW only. Nor have BM ever really expressed any interest (other than rhetorical) in resurrecting the now-dead AA family.
This chain-reaction of problems shows why freedom of choice is so important for AA women's liberation.
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Hello there, Delishmish!
You said, "Put your lifevest on yourself, DON'T just pull the tabs (or you will inflate the vest and float alongside the doomed vessel)...instead, swim like hell away from it and towards the shore."I know I'm wrong for this, but I laughed out loud at that mental picture of survivors bobbing along next to the Titanic. I wonder if in real life, people floating alongside would be swept under as the ship sank.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Khadija...
yes..lol..It is a strange image indeed, but it is the Law of Physics that anything close by the doomed vessel (not greater in size than the doomed vessel) will get pulled under when it goes down...and it WILL go down, because that too is the Law of Physics. A damaged thing will eventually fail.
By putting on our life vests, we take the first step. By keeping them on, but not yet inflating them, is the second step. Step three is getting as far away from the boat as quickly as possible. Some will swim with you, and some will prefer holding on to the outside of the doomed vessel. Leave those people...unless you know them well (and really love them) then (and only then) you may try to pry them off the boat. If they are like a barnacle, forget it. They are not going anywhere. Luckily a barnacle is pretty easy to spot. Don't waste your time trying to separate a barnacle from a ship.
On that note...I think my nautical theme is over..lol (We can look to the sea for any answer to life questions I do believe)I betcha I can make a (valid) case for anything in our forums and relate it to the sea or a ship...but I will spare you any such further inane commentary....for now..lol
Hello there, Delishmish!
Thanks for answering my question. I had the suspicion that nearby objects and persons would be swept under.
You mentioned "barnacles." {loud laughter} I know I'm really WRONG for that! LOL!
Oh, by the way, there's absolutely nothing "inane" about your commentary. A vivid mental picture is worth more than a thousand words to get a life-saving message across! THANK YOU!
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
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