Thursday, April 2, 2009

Portraits in Activism: Larry Kramer

Larry Kramer is one of my activist heroes. I believe that aspiring activists can learn a lot from his example. He helped found both Gay Men's Health Crisis and ACT-UP. Here are some excerpts from FRONTLINE: the age of aids: interviews: larry kramer/PBS [My comments are in blue]: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/aids/interviews/kramer.html

"In 1978, your novel Faggots caused a lot of controversy in the gay community. What was its core message?

Faggots is basically about a person looking for love at that time in our history and not finding it. He comes to the conclusion at the end of a weekend of high living that having so much sex makes finding love impossible.

I question that it's always called controversial; it really wasn't. It created a big stir and made a lot of people quite angry, but it also made a lot of people very happy, and I got thousands of letters from gay people saying, "Thank you for telling it like it really is." The controversy such as it was came from the entrenched people who believe that f***ing is a civil right and that I was imposing on that. ...

It's always been very difficult to criticize -- and this is one of the main problems that caused AIDS -- it's been very difficult to criticize what we do publicly because it's considered a civil right and a private thing, which it certainly is. But when you start killing everybody, it sort of passes on into another category.

[(emphasis added) I agree. When irresponsible promiscuity (and its products such as out of wedlock births) starts KILLING people and DESTROYING communities, then it slips out of the private matter category and becomes a matter of public safety. Go, Larry!]

... How and when did you become aware that a mysterious illness was beginning to strike down gay men?...What made you so alarmed? It was just a few indicators at that point.

Because the article pointed out something that if you had half a brain you would begin to put two and two together. All of the [cases] had a similar history of communicable diseases. We'd all had syphilis, gonorrhea, amoebas mainly. ... So when I saw this business about [Kaposi's sarcoma], I said, "It's like the next bump up the ladder." It just made so much sense to me, [complete] and utter sense. I knew from day one. I just knew it, and I just to this day can't understand why everybody else didn't know it. Everybody had to be blind not to know it, especially when they said, "We think it's a virus."

No one said that loud enough, unfortunately, and gays refused to believe it, because they took the stand of "Oh, they're just saying that to interfere with our civil rights again; they're trying to take away our sex life," ... the most stupidest thing, the most destructive thing gays have ever done, people have ever done, in the entire history of man, by taking that attitude, by refusing to think, hey, I will cool it until they find something. ... I was a pariah because I said, "Cool it." People would cross the street rather than walk on the same side of the street with me.

[Does this attitude of "How dare you criticize us for being promiscuous AND irresponsible?" sound familiar?]

What were the consequences of the Reagan administration's inattention to AIDS?

Seventy million people have now been infected with AIDS. He's not the only one. Every president who has been in the White House since has had the same attitude. ...

And when he died, I think you called Ronald Reagan "Adolf Reagan."

Adolf Reagan, yes, responsible for the death of more gay people than anybody in the world, than Hitler. I believe it, and I can't see why people challenge me when I say these things. He's that much a beloved a**hole. ... This is the worst disaster in history that you're talking about. You cannot talk about it calmly, and any of your people who talk about it calmly, you shouldn't listen to; you really shouldn't.

[Being "reasonable" isn't always a virtue. In the face of certain atrocities, it's a sin.]

... Why do gay activists find themselves at loggerheads with the FDA [Food and Drug Administration]? What was the nature of the argument?

When stuff started to need to be tested and approved, when ACT UP literally broke into the FDA offices in Rockville, [Md.], we discovered horrendous things. Foremost among them was that every report was written in longhand. They didn't have computer[s]; they didn't have typewriters for all we could tell. And it took 10 to 12 years on average to get a drug approved of any kind for any illness. People want to know why it took so long? That's why. Stupid things like that.

Well, we didn't have 10 or 12 years, and during the reign of ACT UP, we reduced that 12 years to less than one. That's what ACT UP accomplished. It took us a long time, took us a lot of screaming and yelling, a lot of protest. ... [Breaking into FDA offices. That's BOLD] ...Joe Papp, my great producer at the public theater, had his shop make an effigy of Frank Young, who was head of the FDA, and we hung him in effigy from gallows that we erected outside of the stock market... [{chuckling} I bet as the head of a normally non-controversial agency, Mr. Young never expected to find himself hung in effigy. That probably caught his attention.]

But do you think ACT UP's tactics alienated general public opinion?

Who gives a s***? I'm so sick of that. You do not get more with honey than you do with vinegar; you just do not. If it makes them angry enough, maybe they'll say why are they angry. I mean, we were in jail all the time -- I cannot tell you how many. We had a cadre of lawyers who did nothing but get us out of jail. ... Professional people were leaving their jobs to come and be activists, because it was getting desperate and they were frightened, literally. The legal work that GMHC was turning out at that time was being done by partners from major New York law firms. It was amazing; it was totally amazing. These two organizations changed history. AIDS would never have been attended to without GMHC, and the drugs would not be out there if it had not been for ACT UP.

[This is the bottom line. A LOT of people (including Blacks) owe their lives to the fact that ACT-UP was NOT "reasonable" or "nice."]

...A very strange thing has happened in the post-AIDS generation. I don't know what to call them; it's not really post-AIDS, but let's call them the healthier, younger ones. They don't want to know. They don't want to know the old people; they don't want to know the history; they don't want to acknowledge that the people who died were even part of their history. I talk about this a lot. How can you dare to ignore everything that happened? These people died so that you could live. Those drugs are out there because people died for them. [It's] shocking what's going on now in the gay population. I have lost a great deal of pride in being gay. ...

I don't think people are as frightened of getting infected now because all these medicines are out there, so if by chance they get drugged up and their guards are down that night and they don't use a condom, they're prepared to take that chance occasionally. That's just so dumb.

While the new drugs are marvelous compared to the old drugs, they are still incredibly complicated to take. Not everybody can take them. I'm lucky. There are side effects with all of them. Women particularly have a terribly hard time with these drugs, because these drugs are all developed on men, which is a whole other issue. ... You can go nuts on some of the drugs. I had to go off one because literally my lover and I just fought over and over again. I had no idea why. It just makes you manic in some people. But it's a very effective drug, and it's very useful to people who can take it. ...

This is the devil's bargain you make for all this. To get a drug approved quickly, the drug has not been tested as long as they used to test drugs -- years and years and years and years before they would approve them. What we're discovering now is that all of these drugs -- and there are a great many of them, thank God -- have different interactions with each other, a lot of them not very good, and you have to stay on top of them and have your blood constantly monitored, and you have to constantly find new ways to monitor them and new tests to take. ...

So living with these drugs is no bed of roses.

It isn't, and that's why I say yes, they certainly are easier to take than the old ones, but it's no bed of roses. "

I always liked the first two sentences of ACT-UP demonstration chants, "ACT-UP! Fight back!" The "Age of AIDS" is still with us. Along with so many other life-threatening circumstances that confront us. With all of these issues, there is NO cavalry riding to the rescue for Black women. Maybe we should rescue ourselves. Black women: ACT-UP! Fight back! Live well!

40 comments:

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I hear you, Khadija!

I have been talking about this with one of my classes recently, the rise of the gay right's movement and the rise of a corresponding push around the time of the epidemic's rise towards monogamy and marriage.

We had a great discussion of civil rights questions, the history of gay rights prior to Stonewall and the history since then.

Stonewall was led by the drag queens. Behavior that was so "out there" led to the closure of the bathhouses in NYC. Yet, more conservative gays in some jurisdictions are getting marriage protections.

Here is what is striking, though. I found a scholarly article written by a gay woman (much younger than the Stonewall generation) who opposes the push towards stability in gay communities, ie., marriage, monogomy, child rearing.

I chose it in particular in order that we could see an alternative view to the traditional one we see here in New England, where the community is built primarily upon stability: marriage and families. These families mirror their straight counterparts.

These were the same type of argument one finds among the "acting black" contingency and which Kramer was dealing with back then. No critical assessment of behavior, the true needs of the community and the individuals in it.

We also had an interesting conversation about activism and civil rights gains: who pushes the most for the gains by being the most vocal, and who gets to benefit.

The vocal ones push for the gains, yet all sorts of other folks get the benefits. Either they were not activists, or because they are more palatable to the mainstream, they get the gains.

In the instance of gays in the GMHC, it is an interesting mix. The most vocal were out there protesting and pushing the button, but they were sure to get the gains, because in some respects, these white gay men were quite mainstream in that their sexuality alone distinguished them. They had access, education, and so forth with their activism to ensure what they wanted.

Khadija said...

Hello there, PioneerValleyWoman!

You mentioned, "Here is what is striking, though. I found a scholarly article written by a gay woman (much younger than the Stonewall generation) who opposes the push towards stability in gay communities, ie., marriage, monogomy, child rearing.

...These were the same type of argument one finds among the "acting black" contingency and which Kramer was dealing with back then. No critical assessment of behavior, the true needs of the community and the individuals in it."


She sounds like a fool. I've always found these "I'm free to openly be sexually active, therefore I AM" arguments to be absolutely ridiculous.

You said, "I chose it in particular in order that we could see an alternative view to the traditional one we see here in New England, where the community is built primarily upon stability: marriage and families. These families mirror their straight counterparts."

I think the White gay male community got a taste of what social disintegration REALLY means during the "dying like flies" period of the late 1980s.

They found out the hard way that a lifetime of one-night stands and superficial friendships often means that there's nobody to look after you "in sickness and in health." That's when large numbers of gays learned the true value of stability and commitment.

This is parallel to the social disintegration of the AA collective. We're finding out the hard way what out of wedlock births and superficial friendships mean. SUFFERING, then DEATH.

You said, "The vocal ones push for the gains, yet all sorts of other folks get the benefits. Either they were not activists, or because they are more palatable to the mainstream, they get the gains."

As irritating as it is, there are always legions of people who seek to ride the coattails of other folks' activism. It's one of the inevitable "costs of doing business." However, I believe that activists need to be aware of this and make every effort to hold folks accountable for benefitting from their struggles. No free rides!

In the gay context, I suspect that this is part of why some folks started "outing" powerful gays who were freeloading on the benefits of other people taking risks through activism.

I will also re-emphasize that Black folks living with HIV/AIDS (including straight Blacks) owe the (mostly White) gays who participated in ACT-UP a great debt. These medications wouldn't have been as available without their efforts. And I don't recall seeing or hearing of many Black gays participating in those initiatives.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

She sounds like a fool. I've always found these "I'm free to openly be sexually active, therefore I AM" arguments to be absolutely ridiculous.

My reply:

Absolutely. I found her arguments to be truly absurd.

In her view, valuing stability in long-term relationships plays into the culture wars waged by the conservative right and marginalizes those who are not mainstream.

Valuing stability need not have anything to do whatsoever with the culture wars and any attempts to assimilate. Stability is a valid human need!

Moreover, even if the stress on stability had any relationship to the culture wars, haven't the messages of the early days of the epidemic established the importance of supporting lifestyles that lead to the community's stability?

I'm a Generation X-er, and I've always looked at the sexual revolution of the Baby Boomers as not contributing much to society. Sure, people got sexual freedom, and yes, birth control matters, and that is a good thing, but what did we get when we came of age? Their AIDS epidemic!

Returning to the authors, worse of all, this is a woman who was so disparaging of other women, ie., the "soccer moms" one can find in many New England towns.

The students didn't notice at first her issues with gender. This woman's work read like the type of thing Larry Kramer would have been talking about 30 years ago, the response of gay men to the end of their party--large proportions of gay men coming down with the disease, the closure of the bathhouses, the clubs, etc.

Khadija said...

Hello there, PioneerValleyWoman!

You said, "Moreover, even if the stress on stability had any relationship to the culture wars, haven't the messages of the early days of the epidemic established the importance of supporting lifestyles that lead to the community's stability?"

Considering the number of lesbians that I've observed building stable relationships and families, I would imagine that this particular fool is quite marginalized.

Although, I have noticed some interesting mini-patterns:

The Black lesbians that I know who are hooked up to White women seem to have their kids through artificial insemination. [Some in order to make a point of having half-White kids; others to have all-Black kids without having to grant paternity rights to the sperm donor.]

The Black gay men that I've known who were in stable, committed relationships ALL have White partners.

I'm not sure what to make of this. There are several different interpretations. Either (1) this is yet another example of how most Blacks (straight or gay/lesbian) have lost the interest or ability to form stable families. Or (2) the type of gay/lesbian Black person that seeks out a White partner is more prone to want a stable, committed relationship. Either way, it doesn't reflect very well on Black folks.

The other striking thing that I note is that White people caught the hint about the value of stable, COMMITTED relationships and the resulting families. Meanwhile, most AAs are desperately "playing the nut" role and pretending that OOW is okay for kids, that a man can properly father children even when he doesn't live with them, etc.

You said, "I'm a Generation X-er, and I've always looked at the sexual revolution of the Baby Boomers as not contributing much to society. Sure, people got sexual freedom, and yes, birth control matters, and that is a good thing, but what did we get when we came of age? Their AIDS epidemic!"

Technically, I'm a Gen X-er; although I never felt any connection to that label. There's really a group of us who are part of an about 5-year gap between the Boomers and the Gen X-ers. We were working young adults by the time people started talking that Gen X stuff. That Gen-X label didn't resonate with folks like me who were already graduated from college and were functioning as grown-ups at that point.

So, emotionally, I'm in the no-name, 5-year gap between the Boomers and the Gen X people. I don't have any particular admiration for either group OR the generations younger than Gen X. Here's why: I agree with a bit of dialogue I heard in an early 90s movie clip where a gay male character was talking about the Boomers and the AIDS crisis. "THEY had the party and left US with the f****** tab."

About these self-identified Gen X and younger generations: I don't understand how passive they are. About everything. What I notice about younger Black folks is that if nobody gives them explicit marching orders, they sit around.

They generally don't take any initiative; and then whine about how nobody's "handing off any batons" to them (said "hand off" seems to be what a lot of them are waiting for). Many of them don't understand that there's generally NO "hand-off." Instead, assertive people just start doing things.

With all of their MANY faults, at least large numbers of Boomers had the initiative to get off their behinds and do something. Even if much of it was the wrong thing. LOL!

On the other hand, perhaps this isn't about so-called generations. Maybe it's really about upbringing. Now that I think about it, there are VERY few passive individuals in my family. Of any age range. And the ones that are passive are perceived as oddballs and losers.

That sort of "waiting for the apple to drop into your lap" behavior was generally NOT encouraged or rewarded.* Instead, most of us were taught that you have to reach out and grab for what you want.

*The exception that I've noticed is a pattern that a friend calls "weakening the already weak child while strengthening the already strong child." I have noticed that with my BM relatives who are passive losers/weaklings, once they demonstrated that they were weak, their parents and other relatives no longer expected or demanded anything of them. Excuses are made for them when they do come up in coversations. All of which helps to keep them comfortable with being weak and non-functioning.

Meanwhile, ever-increasing demands are made upon assertive, resilient children in terms of achievement. Relatives frequently ask about them, their grades, their projects. Adult relatives (AND these adult relatives' friends) freely interrogate these children about what they're doing. I recall feeling as a small child and teenager that everybody was all up in my grades and hobbies. And they were! (My parents, my adult relatives, my parents' friends, my adult relatives' friends, the neighbors...) LOL! [Meanwhile, once my brother demonstrated that he wasn't a "go-getter" folks stopped quizzing him or asking about him.]

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

roslynholcomb said...

I too remember Larry Kramer. This post brings back so many memories. In my teens and twenties, and even early thirties most of my friends were gay and straight white men. (Long story that I won't bore you with right now.) For a while there in the mid-eighties I was averaging four funerals a month. It reminded me of a plague chronicle I once read, there was nothing but death and death and death.

I participated in many marches and was fairly active in ACT UP because so many of my friends were dying and no one cared. Those were scary times, times when for a while I didn't think anyone would survive. It pains me deeply that now I'm seeing the same thing happen with black women.

As I've said many times a movement has to be radical and make noise. No one is going to give us a thing, we have to be poised to take that which we need to survive. One of my favorite movies has the line, "It's a revolution, we have to offend somebody." For too long black women have been tentative, mealy-mouthed for fear of exposing or undermining black men. We've been in a sort of closet of our own. As we learned many years ago, the closet is death and nothing but death.

I too experienced living in a household where the expectations for those of us who were strong were very high, while the weak were coddled and literally allowed to waste away. From an anthropological standpoint, I suppose this makes sense. Animals don't waste time and resources on weak or defective offspring. They're left to die, or sometimes they're killed and eaten. I wonder if perhaps this phenomenon is not part of that instinct. Obviously we don't kill and eat our young (usually), but I guess it's ingrained in us to focus on those that will be strong and improve our gene pool. Of course, the only problem is, the weak tend to out-breed the strong, so maybe killing and eating them is actually a better proposition. (Yes, that's said in jest.)

And, I've made this observation for years. It would appear that many black males come into the world with some type of self-destruction microchip. Perhaps it's some type of Darwinism, obviously tragic, and ultimately self-defeating as the self-destructive have an alarming tendency to take productive members of society with them. It's interesting to think about, anyway.

JaliliMaster said...

"generally don't take any initiative; and then whine about how nobody's "handing off any batons" to them (said "hand off" seems to be what a lot of them are waiting for). Many of them don't understand that there's generally NO "hand-off." Instead, assertive people just start doing things."




They do this because it gives them an excuse not to act. If they can keep on whining about how 'the baton has not been passed on', they are allowed to remain idle, yet noble.
________________



"And, I've made this observation for years. It would appear that many black males come into the world with some type of self-destruction microchip. Perhaps it's some type of Darwinism, obviously tragic, and ultimately self-defeating as the self-destructive have an alarming tendency to take productive members of society with them. It's interesting to think about, anyway."



Irresponsibility breeds irresponsibility. Most children who have irresponsible parents tend to end up the same way. A child is more likely to grow up to be a an adult that contributes positively to society if their parents were the same.

Genes are passed on, and if a man is sociopathic, it is a high possibility that any son he has will be as well. That's why one can see a male turn out to be just as degenerate as his father, even though his father may have been absent most of his life. Add to this that the mother might unknowingly instill in him some things and behaviours. If she was attracted to them in his father, she would, intentionally or not, pass those same things onto her son.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Greetings ladies!

This is an intriguing dialogue.

I agree with Khadija that passive, unambitious persons are viewed as weak and underachieving in the class tier that I grew up in.

This is why I am floored when I receive questions by email such as "where should black women go when they leave the all-black neighborhood?"

Are they so brainwashed from mimicking the life choices of other blacks in their own families that they really DO NOT know how to think their way out of a paper bag?

They really don't know how to find a decent neighborhood to live in? I am saddened by that.

They assume that ANYTHING outside of the black slum is "too expensive".

Really?

When I mentioned at my blog that most of the women on welfare in this country are WHITE and that they aren't living in the black slums, there was total silence.

I think there is a mentality that is condoned in the lower classes where black people are waiting for someone to tell them what to do...what to read...what to examine.

It's fine to sit passively and ask questions...when you are in elementary school!

When you become an adult, then you need to master research skills and start FINDING the answers and showing initiative.

Sitting and just asking questions puts the responsibility for your knowledge base on OTHERS.

They don't seem to grasp this.

I have to be honest...there are times when I encounter this "tell me what I should read and tell me what I should think and tell me what I should do next" mentality at my own blog forum with quite a few ladies and I realize some are teens so that's completely understandable and I am glad that they are thinking and processing and asking.

Many of them are NOT in their teen years though and so it is MORE THAN irritating to encounter this adolescent mindset with grown women...

I have to politely tell some of our sistas by email:
Do your own research!

Figure out what to read in order to become more knowledgeable about the issues that impact your OWN advancement!

Stop waiting for someone to spoon-feed you everything!

It is NOT anyone's job to ensure that you are informed. It's 100% your responsibility now.


Of course, you say this and then the whiny complaints will follow.

"Well I never learned how..." and that is a sob story that I will not listen to from grown women.

Life is not fair. We all have not been given the same start in life. That's reality.

You said:
"Excuses are made for them when they do come up in coversations. All of which helps to keep them comfortable with being weak and non-functioning."

I see this a lot.

How many women come to our forums making excuses?

My response: Get up to speed.

Saying this is not being insensitive. It's being realistic.

I feel that too many of our sistas have spent too much time thinking that help is on the way....or that help SHOULD BE on the way.

They have wasted too much time assuming that someone should even the playing field so that everyone has an equal chance.

BULLLLL.

It will not happen in America.

America is not an egalitarian society. It never will be.

If you have not been given the tools then you need to grab those tools wherever you can. No one has a duty to create the tools for those who did not get them. In America, the race moves quickly so no one cares who started the race behind or who didn't have all of the tools.

If we don't tell our sistas this, then they will remain in a state of waiting for what will never come...they will remain passive in their thinking.

Blog forums like ours, Khadija, are extremely rare. We are willing to provide the insights that we have gained that others may not have had. And yet we still encounter these hostile, belligerent attitudes from those who did not have the tools that we have.

These belligerent and jealous women who want to step into our forums with game-playing and hostility and arguments don't seem to understand that NO ONE has to make time to help or to empower them. At. All.

You touched upon that in your recent Table Talk For Activists series. I think that is so important to articulate. We need to repeat that often until it sinks in.

It is a privilege to receive help and to receive coaching. I am so glad you mentioned that in the conversation two weeks ago. It NEEDED to be said.

Evia has given generously.
Pioneer Valley Woman has given generously.
You have given generously.
I have given generously.
And we continue to do so...

America has a surivalist culture and egalitarianism is not what America has been founded on. I revoke all admission passes to Fantasy Island!

I am thankful that you mentioned that there is a mentality that leads to failure and stagnation in life.

You said:
"Instead, assertive people just start doing things."

AMEN and AMEN.

Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Khadija:

I think the White gay male community got a taste of what social disintegration REALLY means during the "dying like flies" period of the late 1980s.

My reply:

And they realized the value of legal protection for their relationships, ie., marriage became important for that reason too.

Regarding the lesbian whose work I assigned, I think you're right, she is definitely not mainstream. That is why I chose the article, to give the students a flavor of a broader range of what queer theory scholars have been saying.

Your observations about black lesbians: I can think of a few that I have known.

Come to think of it, the ones that I have known who used artificial insemination were interracial. The others who were not interracial, I don't know what strategy they used.

One has been single, with a child. The other two have been in a long term relationship since graduate school, and they each had a child, again, not sure of how they did it.

But come to think of it, the ones I know here in New England, that I have known since moving here, are interracial with half-black children; they used sperm donors to have mixed-race children, since they are mixed-race couples.

That does say something, perhaps, about who is partnering with whom, the black women with white women. Where they live? Their social circles? Their lifestyles? Their class background? Their comfort in majority-white communities?

I think practically all lesbians pursue artificial insemination for the same reason numbers of single white women choose it too--to avoid the sperm donor problem of some dude coming in to pursue parental rights.

There were some legal cases that woke them up pretty quickly, where lesbians used known donors and then the guys tried claiming parental rights, and got them.

But straight black women go the baby-mama drama route with their known sperm donors. The other women avoid it altogether. I'm beginning to think the ones who go the anonymous route are pursuing a smarter strategy.

You noted:

"The other striking thing that I note is that White people caught the hint about the value of stable, COMMITTED relationships and the resulting families," while black folks are rejecting it.

My reply:

But this was always part of most Americans' perspective, that marriage and family mattered.

Reading the Kramer interview, the gays who rejected that after Stonewall and right before the AIDS crisis were primarily gay men who lived lives of hyper-masculinity.

In the early days, gay men were coming down with the disease far more than lesbians.

In their counterculture, devoid of women's influence, they were free to reject the mainstream view of stability, which had always been grounded in commitments to women and children.

So in their hyper-masculine world, they pursued hyper-masculine behaviors of rampant promiscuity and so forth, with the drugs included.

You make an interesting note about the younger Generation X'ers and those younger than them. They have had a lot taken for granted, since their boomer parents, the helicopters, controlled all aspects of their lives in order to make it "easy" for them.

You make an interesting point about the high achievers in a family. I was definitely one of those--people were always "up in my business" when I was a little girl and young woman, about everything!

It is interesting to read about family constellation theory, the effect of birth order on children and how they develop as result--older children v. younger ones.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Roslyn:

And, I've made this observation for years. It would appear that many black males come into the world with some type of self-destruction microchip. Perhaps it's some type of Darwinism, obviously tragic, and ultimately self-defeating as the self-destructive have an alarming tendency to take productive members of society with them. It's interesting to think about, anyway.

My reply:

What a story about your friends dying in the earlier period!

Regarding your comment about the destructive taking others with them, I have been thinking about it this way lately.

When women let into their lives destructive and dysfunctional men, they give the men an honor they don't deserve.

I recall the Bill Moyers documentary from the mid-80s about the crisis in black america, the black family, an update of the Moynihan report.

I remember this creature with children by a woman/women? he was not taking care of and whom he was not married to. He said of himself when the most recent one was born, "I'm a king!"

Yeah, right. A king undertakes leadership, ruling his community, with a queen by his side, raising their children to undertake their legacy in the future royalty.

Yet, he thought that merely having children made him a man worthy of note.

So he gets the honor of knowing his seed is "out there," even though he is not capable of, or even interested in, taking care of them. Men like that don't deserve the honor of having women give birth to their children.

Women need to remember that only men who are capable and interested in being married fathers who provide for and take care of their wives and children, are entitled to become fathers. NO KNOWN SPERM DONORS ALLOWED!

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Thanks for your comments, (Rev.) Pioneer Valley Woman!

I was reading a lot about birth order and it occurred to me that within the constructs where there are multiple half-siblings with only one parent in common, how does THAT impact the predictions about birth order?

One child may be the only child in one household and will be the third born in the next household on the weekends... the dynamics of birth order seem to have different outcomes when one person has different sibling positions in different homes.

Think of the foster children who are constantly changing "rank" in every household...

You said:
"When women let into their lives destructive and dysfunctional men, they give the men an honor they don't deserve."

The way that a woman assesses the caliber of a man depends so much on what she has seen in her life.

There are so many women who use the term "a good man" to refer to a man who ...in my mind... is BELOW AVERAGE and would never be relationship-material. They think "a good man" is a man who is employed, not on drugs and is not violent.

That is what qualifies a man to be deemed "a catch"?
*loooong sigh*

This is where the problem lies... helping women to see the spectrum of what "high caliber" really is.

I find that so many have no idea...and how can we do more conscious-raising in this regard without sounding like super snobs? *smirk*

Khadija said...

Hello there, Roslyn!

I didn't have any close friends who were caught up in the mass AIDS die-off of the 1980s, but I do remember feeling like every time I turned around some distant acquaintance had died.

And I'm also upset beyond words to see the same mass die-off happening with BW.

You said, "I too experienced living in a household where the expectations for those of us who were strong were very high, while the weak were coddled and literally allowed to waste away. From an anthropological standpoint, I suppose this makes sense. Animals don't waste time and resources on weak or defective offspring. They're left to die, or sometimes they're killed and eaten. I wonder if perhaps this phenomenon is not part of that instinct."

This makes sense. It's interesting. Now that I think about it, it has only been (some) female relatives that were willing to caress and coddle passive losers. Once somebody demonstrated that they were a passive loser, my older male relatives did NOT invest any further mental/emotional energy whatsoever into that person.

My Dad is a perfect example of this. Once he concludes that you're a loser, you disappear off the planet for all practical purposes. You no longer register on his emotional radar. You're GONE.
_______________

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

You said, "They do this because it gives them an excuse not to act. If they can keep on whining about how 'the baton has not been passed on', they are allowed to remain idle, yet noble."

These people will ultimately find themselves whining in the middle of Rwanda.
________________

Hello there, Lisa!

You said, "I think there is a mentality that is condoned in the lower classes where black people are waiting for someone to tell them what to do...what to read...what to examine. It's fine to sit passively and ask questions...when you are in elementary school!

But the thing is that this sort of "I want you to spoon-feed me" behavior wasn't even tolerated when we were small! (Which is why I find this behavior incomprehensible.)

Your dad sounds like my parents. My parents refused to intervene or respond to "What should I do next?" questions until AFTER my brother and I had exhausted ALL of our own thoughts and resources regarding the situation. For all non-emergencies, asking our parents had to be the very last step. NOT the first one.

The other thing that usually goes hand in hand with excuses for non-performance are requests to "Give me time." or "Give me a chance." It's like people don't understand that in the real world:

There is NO more time!
There are NO more chances!
This is it! Right here, right now!

It also seems to me that a lot of poor and underclass Black folks have been encouraged to believe that somebody's going to call a "time out" on the game of life in order to give them a chance to catch up. NO! The beat goes on. Life's competition goes on. There are NO time-outs. Folks either get up to speed or they don't. Period.

Yes, you're correct that there are very few sites the offer thoughtful, actionable, personalized, life-enhancing suggestions to BW. There are plenty of sites where BW rant. But very little of what a few of us are offering. This is why it's so important to protect our forums from disruptive behavior. No matter what it's source or motivation.
_______________

Hello there, PioneerValleyWoman!

I believe that the AIDS die-off is the origin of the push for marriage among White gays. Many of them lived through the experience of being excluded from dying lovers' hospital rooms because they weren't "officially" family members.

I also think you're correct about the hyper-masculine gay nuts who were demonizing Larry Kramer for his calls to close the bathhouses and other places where individual gay men were racking up literally THOUSANDS of anonymous sexual partners.

If I remember the passage from Randy Shilts' book chronicling the history of the AIDS crisis (And The Band Played On), the French-Canadian gay White male flight attendant who was identified as "Patient Zero" frequented such places. [His name was Gaetan Dugas. There's a Wikipedia entry about him.]

Yet again, there are disturbing parallels with the modern AA collective. BW's current focus on "nothing but a BM" is creating desperation and a refusal to enforce standards of any kind regarding their BM sexual partners. Due to this desperation, BM are able to rack up numbers of BF sexual partners that are beginning to rival the much larger numbers of sexual partners that many gay men have. And so HIV/AIDS is spreading like wildfire among BW.

As we've all said over and over again, many of these problems would be avoided if more BW stopped restricting themselves to the grossly numerically imbalanced AND deadly all-Black dating pool.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Rev. Lisa:

I find that so many have no idea...and how can we do more conscious-raising in this regard without sounding like super snobs? *smirk*

My reply:

Think about the qualities and values beyond the mere basic, what you called as the below average standard that some see as being superior: employed, not on drugs and not violent.

ActsofFaithBlog said...

Interesting read. Kramer's work was very important. I also think people being assertive and taking initiative comes from wanting more for yourself and having a thirst for knowledge, an experience or something. I've found myself faltering between being assertive and being passive because it can be hard being out there all by yourself, ridiculed by the acting black crew mentality when those may be the majority of the people you grew up with. Trying something new and not quite hitting the mark brings out the naysayers you know. It's still good to try though but I've always hated the journey aspect and wanted to get to my destination. This is definitely food for thought though!

Khadija said...

Hello there, Faith!

You mentioned, "I've found myself faltering between being assertive and being passive because it can be hard being out there all by yourself, ridiculed by the acting black crew mentality when those may be the majority of the people you grew up with. Trying something new and not quite hitting the mark brings out the naysayers you know. It's still good to try though but I've always hated the journey aspect and wanted to get to my destination. This is definitely food for thought though!"

Please humor me while I presume to get "flaky" and spiritual here. LOL! If there is anything of value in my response, it is from God. Only the mistakes are mine...

Only God truly knows all of the variables involved in a situation. Sometimes He withholds something that we want because either we aren't ready to handle it; OR we aren't ready to handle what would come with it.

How this might possibly relate to what you mentioned:

It sounds as if you might currently be having difficulty withstanding the discouragement (and possible mockery) of the naysayers. And this is in the context of you having tried, and so far (for now) haven't quite hit the mark.

If you are having difficulty withstanding their negativity in a situation where you haven't yet succeeded, are you ready to handle the STRAIGHT-UP, FUNK-UNCUT hateration that the naysayers will unleash when you succeed?

I've watched these sorts of scenarios over and over again. In certain settings, there's always the TALK of breaking free. Talking "freedom talk" is a fad in most white collar settings. NOBODY wants to admit that their real plan is to die in office on some J-O-B that they don't really care for. This dynamic also happens within families.

Everything is cool (on the surface) as long as nobody breaks ranks by actually DOING something different. Once somebody steps out to do something different (like grabbing for self-actualization), the "herd" becomes DEEPLY agitated.

The herd members' self-esteem can't withstand the idea of the other individual actually succeeding in finding freedom/self-actualization. After all, they think to themselves, "Person X isn't any smarter, or more talented, or deserving than me." They feel this way while simultaneously lacking the courage, smarts or skill to DO what Person X is doing. They want to feel like they're equal to Person X when they lack the courage to actually try. This is how some people become emotionally invested in Person X not succeeding!

And so, they might seek to discourage Person X. If they're more insecure, they might even ridicule Person X's efforts.

Be aware that when you have your "breakthrough," the naysayers will be ENRAGED. Then you will hear angry assertions that you "were lucky" or that "somebody must have "hooked you up," etc. The answer can't be that you're smarter, more talented, and more courageous than them. Some folks might even try to sabotage what you're doing.

A person's breakthrough moment is the point when open, naked hateration begins! It's the point when people stop saying negative things mixed in with positive things. It becomes ALL negativity with some people. It's also the point when certain jealous haters start ACTIVELY trying to sabotage that person's efforts.

It could be that God is temporarily holding back your breakthrough until after you have fully mentally prepared yourself to handle the hateration that will come with it.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said...

@ Acts of Faith

I believe paradigm shifts are inevitable for people who believe in freedom of conscience, privacy, reciprocity, and interdependence. I also believe that the mental, spiritual, and intellectual transitions one goes through during the early stages of paradigm shifts can be taxing, and even isolating to a certain degree.

As for the INRL issues, I’ve come to these conclusions based off of two fundamental paradigm shifts I’ve experienced in the last three years:


1- After seeing how “warped” and “distorted” some many of my co-religionists thinking has become--I’ve learned up close, and personal that no one has power over you unless you give it to them. I’m also learning that once one gives up the need or perhaps the belief that one has to be accepted, and approved by any closed communion group ( in this discussion the black nationalist acting crew) their verbal, spiritual, public, and financial warfare attacks no longer matter. I’ve had to completely eliminate their creditability, authority, and concerns mentally. Of course this for some of us may involve stages of loss, grief, anger, confusion, and even disillusionment.

2-I personally could not have ever experienced the two paradigm shifts, in the past three years with out being certain, confident, and convicted. In the beginning, I wavered because I was not convinced of the commentary
( especially if ego maniacs and their culstis supporters were yelling it out loud)
and had not seen evidence or did not discern that I had indeed been presented with evidence. Having to weed between the clashes of black authoritarian populists, elites, and the class tier intersections, was yet another maze to go through.

3- I’m learning to not disclose any of my escape plans, ideas, or feelings. I personally believe that the best option is to be in a position of strength, with support before calling to the masses in real life--I also believe this due to safety reasons, especially if women are alone.

And finally, recalling that discussion in which a black woman empowerment blogger who is also a sociologist or anthropologist pointed out that what is transpiring in our black community is unprecedented and my response brings me to this point:

Because what is happening in my belief is so unnatural, and inhumane
Because what is happening is so unprecedented and there is no documentium about coping, survival strategies as people such as your self, it is what is. In other words isolation, alienation, and attacks are going be a part of the paradigm shift, but those conditions do not half to be permanent or even short term.

Any ways, I’m not trying to preach to you or others but wanted to share some of the internal mechanism I’ve experienced in the last three years. I hope and pray that you are successful in your endeavors--and that you remain safe.

Best wishes

: )

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said...

A person's breakthrough moment is the point when open, naked hateration begins! It's the point when people stop saying negative things mixed in with positive things. It becomes ALL negativity with some people. It's also the point when certain jealous haters start ACTIVELY trying to sabotage that person's efforts.

It could be that God is temporarily holding back your breakthrough until after you have fully mentally prepared yourself to handle the hateration that will come with it.

Khadija
_____________________________________________________________


I didn’t think this response was flaky or nutty at all Khadija! I personally believe that both spirituality, and religion can give people a reason to live or meaningful life. IMHO. I also personally appreciate your essays in which you honorably reference scripture in context with out going off the deep end.

( laughing hysterically at this moment)

I have a female family member, now a grandmother, by illegitimate means who WOULD constantly try to break my spirit, and undermine my efforts to create a home life that she secretly envied not having the spouse or resources to create herself. When she found out that Yoro and I had actually put our money where I mouth was, she flew off the handle in public. When she found out about the organizations we had joined, she became hysterical at which point, I had to let go of the relationship for good.

It’s very clear to me that people want to see you fail, in misery, and hardship because they have this notion that is their decision to decide how far you get in life. I call these people bullies, and realize they come in all shape, and sizes.

It’s take a great deal of self-esteem, and spiritual work for me to stand up for what I believe, and not let others brow beat me into rabid submission to their ideas which I know are suicidal to black women and girls in particular.

Enough said about folks with delusions of grandeur…


Spot on about being prepared, and also having the tools to prepare others you are responsible for.

Salaam alaikum

Khadija said...

Wa Alaikum Salaam, SisterSeeking/Miriam!

Thank you! This blogging (and in a way, "preaching") situation still feels strange to me. So I try to be careful with what I say in this context.

So many people (with various agendas) are coming at BW with all sorts of messages. Some messages are PURE poison (such as the "Goonette" filth that Gina is currently discussing over at What About Our Daughters). Other messages are helpful things mixed with poison.

My first priority with anything I say here is to first, do no harm. I believe that there are many helpful things to be found in scripture. It's just that Satan and his agents (some of whom are clergy members) have found ways to subvert the true message, and put poison into the mix.

The enemy's agents are also fond of distorting liberation teachings. I was reminded of this when I saw some of the comments made in response to one of Gina's earlier, recent posts.

Since she openly disagreed with the notion of women stripping to pay for college, etc., some folks wrote in to say: (1) That anybody who openly condemns stripping is being "self-righteous" and "judgmental." (2) That stripping could reasonably be compared to ways in which people FIGURATIVELY prostitute themselves (such as working at a cubicle job that one does not care for). (3) That anyone who denounces this activity is engaging in "slut shaming."

The folks who wrote in with this madness probably have the mistaken idea that they are being "progressive," and are supporting women's freedom of choice. They don't seem to notice the real ABASEMENT and DEGRADATION that is involved in stripping and the sex trade. This is a good example of how the enemy and his agents encourage people get things twisted into poison.

I notice that these people have been silent so far in response to the "Goonette" video and post. For those who can't stomach to watch it, the video is a trailer by a BM hip-hop creature promoting the story of a BF midget, who is a single mother and works as a stripper. The trailer features snippets of her at work stripping, gyrating, being handled by a male in the audience, and making her butt cheeks quiver. The trailer celebrates this woman as a "survivor."

It is beyond FOUL.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

DeStouet said...

It's sad, but I have stopped trying to listen for the voice of reason whenever I am dealing with the "abc."

After I decided to cut off my damaged relatives, I found out just how emotionally bullying someone really works, and how real that act is.

I woke up to find out, that I was suddenly on an island all by myself, and the only way to make things right, was to go back to my old way of thinking, because most of my relatives do NOT want to join me on my journey to living well.

Since we are being honest, that does bother me...to a point. It frustrates me because now I see that my relatives are choosing to live like savages and folks with no kind of common sense.

In fact, the only time they want to think critically is when you are telling them something that will benefit them. Other than that, they have no desire to push pass the difficult stage, and seek out any kind of professional help, and no real desire to "live well."

But that is their decision. Early on, I was repeating their saying, "I'm grown. You can't tell me what to do with my life." Now I don't even bother to give them an explanation for my actions.

In many ways, we're officially done.

One of the things that does still bother me, is when no one bothers to tell me when one of my relatives is in the hospital, or sick, or was accepted into the university of their choice. I have to find out everything three weeks after the fact. But hey, if that is the cost of living well, so be it.

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said...

Okay, I just saw that post you mentioned early:

Here is what I posted-

This is SEXUALLY PERVERTED on so many levels namely:

The emphasis on her dwarfism, and the connotations of innocence and childhood affiliated with such is PERVERTED.

Can't people see this?

This is another form of pedophilia...

Wake up people!

P.S. Just a step away from living on the land seriously you can survive other ways. I'd rather work for Burger King or scrub floors.

Khadija said...

Hello there, DeStouet!

The first stage is to jump off the Titanic. The second stage is to actively seek out other people who really want to live well. As I mentioned during the True Fellowship series, this is very, VERY hard. But it has to be done. Otherwise, one will remain on an island.

Regarding news about relatives: I made a point of telling the few semi-sensible relatives I have that if they want me to know something that's going on with them, they have to tell me THEMSELVES. I stressed to them that if they don't tell me themselves, then I won't hear about it until long after the fact. At which point, that's on them for not telling me directly.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Khadija said...

SisterSeeking/Miriam,

{heavy sarcasm} Well, you know...she's a survivor...and therefore is deserving of being celebrated. I'm sure that many will find her to be an inspirational role model.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Foxycleopatra said...

Khadija said:
"The enemy's agents are also fond of distorting liberation teachings. I was reminded of this when I saw some of the comments made in response to one of Gina's earlier, recent posts.

Since she openly disagreed with the notion of women stripping to pay for college, etc., some folks wrote in to say: (1) That anybody who openly condemns stripping is being "self-righteous" and "judgmental." (2) That stripping could reasonably be compared to ways in which people FIGURATIVELY prostitute themselves (such as working at a cubicle job that one does not care for). (3) That anyone who denounces this activity is engaging in "slut shaming."


I said:

Yeah I remember seeing this post at WAOD. When I read the comments condoning prostitution, I was gobsmacked. This is what happens whn we begin to accept mediocrity as standard and degeneracy as the norm.

________________________________

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said... :

"Okay, I just saw that post you mentioned early:

Here is what I posted-

This is SEXUALLY PERVERTED on so many levels namely:

The emphasis on her dwarfism, and the connotations of innocence and childhood affiliated with such is PERVERTED.

Can't people see this?

This is another form of pedophilia..."


I said:
I was having a converstaion with someone concerning this particular 'goonette' thing. I said that I believed that it was verging on peadophilia and they then decided too accuse me of being 'dwarfist'. Being me, I put them in their place and gave him (it was a man) a piece of my mind. I said that part of what is driving those men who were throwing money at her was SOLELY the fact that she was that small. So it was like she is small enough for them to imagine they are with a child but still be legal.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Foxycleopatra!

You mentioned, "I was having a converstaion with someone concerning this particular 'goonette' thing. I said that I believed that it was verging on peadophilia and they then decided too accuse me of being 'dwarfist'."

Wow. More "up is down/wrong is right/exploitation is liberation" sort of thinking.{shaking my head}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

daphne said...

Lisa said:

It is NOT anyone's job to ensure that you are informed. It's 100% your responsibility now.

Of course, you say this and then the whiny complaints will follow.

"Well I never learned how..." and that is a sob story that I will not listen to from grown women.

Life is not fair. We all have not been given the same start in life. That's reality.


Agreed. In my experience, there appear to be four groups of people with regard to resourcefulness:

1) Those who are naturally so and seek knowledge/understanding unprompted, even when it isn't reinforced by their environment;

2) Those who may not be naturally so, but are raised in an environment where seeking/finding knowledge is consistently reinforced;

3) Those who are naturally so AND are raised in an environment where it is consistently reinforced;

4) None of the above.

I fall into group number one. While I can understand why those in group 4 may struggle, as being resourceful and taking hold of the power in that takes practice and effort, at some point, if you really want to thrive, not just survive, you have to seek things out. As others have already stated - there is no help coming. There is no cavalry, white/black knight, etc.

I mentioned in one of Lisa's posts how I was raised with a certain type of entitlement mentality - a rather passive one at that. I don't pretend to speak for all, or even most, black women, but there has to be others who were raised in similar environments. Otherwise, very little of what's being written by Lisa, Khadija, Evia, Halima, PioneerValleyWoman, Gina, and others would be perceived as revolutionary. Blacks use the term "common sense" all the time, when most of our thinking isn't particularly common (outside of us) or sensible.

What I appreciate about the aforementioned bloggers is that - it's not just empty rhetoric. It's not just emotionally charged, all flash and no substance, flowery words, get you rocking in your seat about how "a change is gonna come" BS. It's empowering, pragmatic, action-oriented, measurable, "you don't have to WAIT for someone to save you!" information. Heck, as far as I know, all these ladies could suddenly decide to throw their hands up, not share what they know, and cease blogging (which would be well within their right). Who gives a flip what you haven't gotten in the past, as you can't change it anyway - look at what's available RIGHT NOW. I'm soaking it all in, making changes, and paying it forward when I can.

Thanks for the post, Khadija!

Khadija said...

Hello there, Daphne!

Thank you for your kind words about the blog and post. I truly appreciate it. I learn a lot from readers such as yourself; and I'm thankful for the opportunity.

You said, "get you rocking in your seat about how "a change is gonna come" BS."

{gales of laughter} Wasn't that a Sam Cooke song? If I remember correctly, the same Sam Cooke who was killed after taking a half-White, half-Asian woman to a seedy motel? Yep, a change came for him. {chuckling--Sorry, I've got this word-association thing going right now. LOL!}

Peace, blessings, and solidarity.

Sister Seeking/Miriam/MaryAnn said...

Sr. Khadija,

You said earlier:

"So many people (with various agendas) are coming at BW with all sorts of messages. Some messages are PURE poison (such as the "Goonette" filth that Gina is currently discussing over at What About Our Daughters). Other messages are helpful things mixed with poison."

I said earlier:
I wavered because I was not convinced of the commentary
( especially if ego maniacs and their cults supporters were yelling it out loud)and had not seen evidence or did not discern that I had indeed been presented with evidence.

I was reflecting on your previous comment. There is a certain black male with a popular radio show, blog, and website. It was through this radio show I learned of the Jena 6 case. After the situation ended, I checked out his blog, and website only to discover that I had made HUGE mistake sister HUGE.

I confess I have tendency to engage in conspiracy theories. But based off the misguidance, and misinformation on his radio program, I came to the conclusion that this person is using his resources such as the blogsphere to elicit sexual excursions with his cultists supporters or groupies.

I've also seen this ALLOT on some parts of the Muslim blogsphere. So I hope people are awake, and run away.

Due to the publicity of that case, it wasn't until it died down, and the liberation ideology wore off that I began to really see this man for what he truly was.

The so called "experts" or "professionals" that were regular guests on his shows were no better. They enable people to opress themselves and others.

"This blogging (and in a way, "preaching") situation still feels strange to me. So I try to be careful with what I say in this context. "

LOL LOL Don't worry Khadija! Truth is clear from falsehood! I personally think you've went above and beyond, trying to create a safe place almost like a support system.

Salaam
Have a great week

JaliliMaster said...

"I notice that these people have been silent so far in response to the "Goonette" video and post."



It didn't surprise me one bit. Frankly, I think it is a good thing as maybe, just maybe, some of them are starting to learn some sense.
_____________________

"{gales of laughter} Wasn't that a Sam Cooke song? If I remember correctly, the same Sam Cooke who was killed after taking a half-White, half-Asian woman to a seedy motel? Yep, a change came for him. {chuckling--Sorry, I've got this word-association thing going right now. LOL!}"



Lol, Khadija, you always come out with this stuff. Sam Cooke's was just another Negro cliche. What was even more typical about it was how so many black folks were trying to (in his absence) excuse his dalliances with the prostitute, and were more willing to come up with and believe any other fanciful version of what went down as opposed to him just getting jacked by a prostitute.

Khadija said...

Hello there, SisterSeeking/Miriam!

You mentioned, "I was reflecting on your previous comment. There is a certain black male with a popular radio show, blog, and website. It was through this radio show I learned of the Jena 6 case. After the situation ended, I checked out his blog, and website only to discover that I had made HUGE mistake sister HUGE.

I confess I have tendency to engage in conspiracy theories. But based off the misguidance, and misinformation on his radio program, I came to the conclusion that this person is using his resources such as the blogsphere to elicit sexual excursions with his cultists supporters or groupies."


Oh, you mean Michael Baisden? I've never listened to his show. In fact, I had never heard of him until the Jena 6 fiasco. But from all of the comments I've read here and other places about him, he sounds like a pimp. A pimp who decided to diversify his groupies by joining the fringes of the Civil Rights Complex. FOUL, FOUL, FOUL.

On another note about the Muslim blogosphere: I don't understand why some people are referring to ex-con "Imam" Mahdi Bray as a "civil rights leader." I have NEVER read any mention whatsoever of him in that particular struggle. And I usually take note of local activists who never gained a national reputation. So, somebody can become a "civil rights leader" just because they start calling themselves one? Hmmph.
______________

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

You said, "It didn't surprise me one bit. Frankly, I think it is a good thing as maybe, just maybe, some of them are starting to learn some sense."

From your lips to God's ears. I also hope that some of these people let a little light filter into their brains.

You said, "Lol, Khadija, you always come out with this stuff. Sam Cooke's was just another Negro cliche. What was even more typical about it was how so many black folks were trying to (in his absence) excuse his dalliances with the prostitute, and were more willing to come up with and believe any other fanciful version of what went down as opposed to him just getting jacked by a prostitute."

What you're describing is the primary source of my irritation with these scenarios. Here was a WORTHLESS Negro who was of NO value to BW and Black children (womanizer, frequented prostitutes, just had to get his hands on non-Black women).

He gets robbed and killed during the course of one of his gutter-diving expeditions, which is one logical, predictable outcome of dealing with prostitutes.

And then many Black folks want to build this clown up into some sort of martyr with idiotic conspiracy theories that he was "killed by the Mob," or "murdered by the LAPD," etc. because he was allegedly turning pro-Black. Puh-leeze.

Which is how similarly doggish and worthless Negro males chose to characterize his death. Anything and everything EXCEPT drawing the lesson that if Sam Cooke had been a decent family man, he wouldn't have died like that.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

JaliliMaster said...

"Oh, you mean Michael Baisden? I've never listened to his show. In fact, I had never heard of him until the Jena 6 fiasco. But from all of the comments I've read here and other places about him, he sounds like a pimp. A pimp who decided to diversify his groupies by joining the fringes of the Civil Rights Complex. FOUL, FOUL, FOUL."



I only became aware of him a few months ago, and the first time I heard his name being mentioned, it was in a negative light, by someone who had already realised his negritude. I never listen to what he says. The few sentences I've heard him mutter, it was full of crap. It's even more annoying because alot of black women take him for some anointed messenger. Apparently(I heard this happened, as opposed to hearing the radio session myself), he went on a rant about how bw don't 'perform' in bed, are not sexually adventurous enough, and should be ready AND willing to do whatever a bm 'asks' of her to do in the bedroom. Shamefully, there were hordes of black women calling in, practically begging him for advice, wailing that 'we are not all like that(uptight leg-closers), that there are many of us who can "H* it up like any white girl(SMH)". He was clucking his wings, happy that he had gotten the result he wanted.

JaliliMaster said...

"Which is how similarly doggish and worthless Negro males chose to characterize his death. Anything and everything EXCEPT drawing the lesson that if Sam Cooke had been a decent family man, he wouldn't have died like that."



I don't get why alot of black folks take the act of sleeping with prostitutes as some small matter. Diseases aside, the curb crawlers are complicit in the opression of these women. I've heard so many bm boast about going to Brazil to sleep with prostitues, and having these "sweet honeys" all up on them. Who publicly admits to chasing prostitutes? I swallow vomit whenever I hear folks talking about the R Kelly case and say they saw what happened. How did you see it? I'm surprised by how many folks have casually admitted to having watched the video. So someone would send you a video saying it's a grown man having sex with a 14 year old child, and you'll still press 'play'? Folks don't actually realise(or refuse to admit) that they are viewing a paedophilic pornographic video. When one points it out to them, those who are decent would start sputtering, realising the gravity of what they did. Those who are not(which seems to be the majority), start cursing at me for pointing out the truth.

Khadija said...

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

Yep. If I remember correctly, Evia broke it down a while back about creatures like Michael Baisden. (Apparently, Baisden encourages BW to get involved in swinging and the sex trade, etc.)

These types of Black males pressure weak-minded BW into sexually degrading themselves, and then turn around and refer to these same women as b****** and h***. And, of course, many of these males then look for "decent" non-Black women to marry after running through the BW who performed every degrading sex act in the book to try to appease them.

It's a scam.

But it also ties into something that Roslyn raised. I don't understand why BW are listening to males, much less NO-value and LOW-value BM, for advice of any sort. It's crazy. And I feel that they get the poison that they asked for by going to these pimps for advice. Come on, now. A pimp's solution to every problem will be the advice that "You should turn tricks for me."

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

JaliliMaster said...

"These types of Black males pressure weak-minded BW into sexually degrading themselves, and then turn around and refer to these same women as b****** and h***."




They aren't just weak-minded. Alot of them are just foolish women. One get's to an age where stupidity can no longer be tolerated.
______________________

"And, of course, many of these males then look for "decent" non-Black women to marry after running through the BW who performed every degrading sex act in the book to try to appease them."




They will first look for the "decent" Black women. Afterall, how come these NV's, LV's and DBRBM types always seem to be a whiole lot more interested in pursuing the types of black women who did things with their life that these men didn't/couldn't/refused to do?! These unemployed/low and sparse income, drop-outs, ex-cons/criminally-inclined, having babymommas all over the place types never want to chase the Black women who are a mirror image of him. Evia once mentioned that it's because these men are looking for others to destroy and drag down with them. When they are done, they'd move on to the next 'good' girl. When they have had their fill, they start chasing non-Black women as to them, Black women are not 'good'.

daphne said...

{gales of laughter} Wasn't that a Sam Cooke song? If I remember correctly, the same Sam Cooke who was killed after taking a half-White, half-Asian woman to a seedy motel? Yep, a change came for him. {chuckling--Sorry, I've got this word-association thing going right now. LOL!}

Hee! I heard about him taking a prostitute to a motel, but didn't know she was half-white, half-asian. I'm shocked. Shocked, I say! (end sarcasm)

Khadija said...

Hello there, Daphne!

{chuckling}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

JaliliMaster said...

"Hee! I heard about him taking a prostitute to a motel, but didn't know she was half-white, half-asian. I'm shocked. Shocked, I say! (end sarcasm)"



Neither did I. I just thought she was white. I knew she definitely wasn't black because she hardly got any insults from the negroes who were defending him.

Foxycleopatra said...

Sheesh. I know this is sorta a pointless comment but this thread is on FIYAH!!!

I don't even know where to get in.

Foxycleopatra said...

@ jalilimaster,
your comments about african countries and their governments are spot on. I couldn't have said it any better.


I'll go take a look at the book mentioned by the woman economist.

I believe aid should be STOPPED to MOST if not ALL African countries. They have gotten waaay to used to it and before anyone accuses me of hating on Africans (I'd probably be a millionaire by now if I got a dollar for each time i have been accused of such), I am African myself. I've seen and experienced it with my own two eyes.

Several African countries have been getting aid for MORE THAN 50 years now and they are WORSE off now than they ever were.
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@ Khadija,

I never actually looked at aid that way (as welfare) and the first time you said it (i think it was about 4 or so posts ago) I didn't totally agree but thinking of it now, I am actually seeing it for exactly what it is. There is this WELFARE MENTALITY that a lot of these African countries seem to have.

After reading jalilimasters comments, I have seen that it is actually akin to welfare.
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Re: sam cooke,

I have heard of this but the name never actually registered (i.e. didn't link the name with the incident involving his death). I didn't know they were the same person...(sheesh, you'd think i didn't live on this planet). I've seen people making all sorts of conspiracy theories about this guy. I just never actually bothered joining in because i didn't realise it was him (i.e. the same person).
---------------------------------

Re micheal baisden,

ha khadija, see you calling his name out!

I think it was on Evia's site that I first heard about this negro. I for the life of me couldn't believe that a lot of black women were buying his bs. i remember hearing about the radio show jalilmaster spoke of. Even online (on some black blogs and websites), there were still a lot of black women arguing among themselves and with other black males about how they can do just as much or even better in the bedroom than non-black women. I just remeber thinking "how pathetic and ridiculous are these people?". These were grown women!! I just assumed that it shouldn't take too long for anyone to see through this guy but obviously, I was wrong.

Khadija said...

Hello there, JaliliMaster!

You said, "Neither did I. I just thought she was white. I knew she definitely wasn't black because she hardly got any insults from the negroes who were defending him."

You're right. I hadn't thought of that. If the woman involved had been Black, Negroes would have plenty of Marion Barry-esqe comments ("she set him up," etc.). Hmmph.
_______________

Hello there, Foxycleopatra!

You said, "After reading jalilimasters comments, I have seen that it is actually akin to welfare."

Oh yeah. There are LOTS of parallels to AAs and welfare. The entitlement mentality. The mindless expectation that the welfare (public aid/international aid) will go on FOREVER. The fact that the longer a person/country stays on it, the less likely it is that the person/country will EVER become functional.

I'll say this:

African dictators "got over" with getting the international welfare in large part due to the international equivalent of "White guilt." In other words, "colonial guilt." The days of "colonial guilt" are about to be OVER. Especially once the Chinese and other Asian countries displace the US and Western Europe as the dominant economies.

The only reason why the Chinese are currently engaged in a softer, friendlier-seeming form of imperialism in Africa is because White-dominated countries are still credible competitors for the control of African resources. Once the White world falls behind in terms of total power, then the "dragon" will fully extend his claws. And he won't be grinning in African faces anymore.

The Chinese "dragon" has recently given Africans a sneak preview of his future demeanor when he pressured South Africa into NOT welcoming the Dalai Lama into the country for a peace conference. It won't be a pretty picture.

Peace, blessings, and solidarity.

Aphrodite said...

Thank you Khadija for another informative post.


I googled Kramer when the post first went up and this guy sounds like a very interesting person! He definitely doesn't hold any punches. LOL


Reading and reflecting definitely highlighted how challenging/isolating etc being a pioneer/forerunner can be within a movement.

I think I understood that intellectually, but it just hit me emotionally.


@ Khadija

"*The exception that I've noticed is a pattern that a friend calls "weakening the already weak child while strengthening the already strong child." I have noticed that with my BM relatives who are passive losers/weaklings, once they demonstrated that they were weak, their parents and other relatives no longer expected or demanded anything of them. Excuses are made for them when they do come up in coversations. All of which helps to keep them comfortable with being weak and non-functioning."



This has played out in my family. A lot. When my brother does something it is regarded as, "Oh my God - it is a miracle!"- it is like cooing over a 5 year old that just learned to tie his shoes or a 2 year old that just went potty all by herself.

At first I was kind of resentful, but as I have gotten older I realize that they don't love him more than me and I wonder if they love him at all bc he is a shell of a man/embarrassment/stunted.

Whereas I was the one who had all the responsibility and wasn't even allowed to slip/mess up and if I did I never got the bailouts my brother did. I had to deal with the full brunt of the consequences.




RE Goonette

I saw that clip and it made me cringe and shudder.

I didn't even consider the pedo angle, Miriam mentioned {shudder}




@ Jallimaster


Re M Baisden


I used to listen to him when he first came on, but then he took a seriously deviant turn. In the beginning his show at least the ones I listened to - were about old school music and cute call in games and then he started talking about all this sex work, BW vs WW, male sex tourism garbage and all I could think was "what in the world is really going on??"

Now this negro is trying to get into politics.



Re: his call in shows for BW

BM regularly call BW desperate for trying to date and marry non BM, but when BW lower themselves in this way to pander to BM who really don't want them anyway- that to me is desperate instead. It is so sad, frustrating, and just crazymaking the few times I have heard these women on his show. It angers me and hurts my heart at the same time bc I wish I could tell them you don't have to do this. All this ain't even necessary. Its is not that serious. Its a rigged game. Why are you throwing your pride in the trash to appeal to the 3 BM left - who are probably checking for Becky anyway?


Re: R Kelly vid

I ended a friendship over this same thing. Someone said to me, "but you haven't even seen the video." and I was like why would I watch kiddie porn?


It made me think I am associating with a predator and so I cut him off right then and there.

What is the age of consent among some BP now? Three?

I think the Kelley situation shows how depraved some BP are both men and women and how some women can act as facilitators for men or be outright abusers themselves.

I couldn't believe how many woman were saying "she looked like she knew what she was doing." or whatever nonsense they construed together to defend the indefensible.

Khadija said...

Hello there, Aphrodite!

You said, "Thank you Khadija for another informative post."

You're welcome!

You said, "I googled Kramer when the post first went up and this guy sounds like a very interesting person! He definitely doesn't hold any punches. LOL"

Yep, he's ones of my heroes.

You said, "Reading and reflecting definitely highlighted how challenging/isolating etc being a pioneer/forerunner can be within a movement. I think I understood that intellectually, but it just hit me emotionally."

The emotional price tags that come with honest, sincere activism are rarely discussed. I'm sure that Mr. Kramer was under a LOT of mental pressure. People were dying like flies around him, while AT THE SAME TIME many of his surviving acquaintances were shunning him because of some of his positions. I can't imagine living through something like that.

You said, "RE Goonette. I saw that clip and it made me cringe and shudder. I didn't even consider the pedo angle, Miriam mentioned {shudder}"

I didn't think of that angle either; until after Miriam pointed it out. FOUL, FOUL, FOUL.

You said the following regarding BW calling into Michael Baisden's show, "BM regularly call BW desperate for trying to date and marry non BM, but when BW lower themselves in this way to pander to BM who really don't want them anyway- that to me is desperate instead. It is so sad, frustrating, and just crazymaking the few times I have heard these women on his show. It angers me and hurts my heart at the same time bc I wish I could tell them you don't have to do this. All this ain't even necessary. Its is not that serious. Its a rigged game. Why are you throwing your pride in the trash to appeal to the 3 BM left - who are probably checking for Becky anyway?"

"Crazymaking" is the perfect description of so many self-defeating, deranged things that BW are doing. This is why I'm generally not willing to invest much time into debating with folks who don't want to "get" it.

Sincere confusion and requests for clarification are one (legitimate) thing. But things have reached a critical stage. There's no time to debate with people who refuse to save their own lives. That's their business. They are free to destroy themselves if they wish. Just leave me and others who want to survive and thrive out of it.

You said, "Re: R Kelly vid...What is the age of consent among some BP now? Three?

I think the Kelley situation shows how depraved some BP are both men and women and how some women can act as facilitators for men or be outright abusers themselves.

I couldn't believe how many woman were saying "she looked like she knew what she was doing." or whatever nonsense they construed together to defend the indefensible."


This reaction only happened because the child being victimized was a Black girl. Had that been an underaged BOY he molested and urinated on, these same individuals would have been calling for Ar-ruh Kelly's execution.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.